Potenza RFT rotation info from Bridgestone

[06330i06]

I realize this is more appropriate for the tire forum, but since I've seen this topic come up so often I thought I'd place the information re. tire noise with the RFT tires that I recvd from Bridgstone today.

I know this has been an ongoing topic in various forums. I recvd this very interesting information direct from Bridgestone this morning.

BTW - My BMW Service Center Service manager recommended NOT rotating the tires when I suggested this a few days ago. I then decided to contact Bridgestone. This all came about when my 18" Potenzas started making a lot noise almost overnight at the 15k mark. They still have a lot of tread left. I rotated my own tires last night, but the engineer indicated it may take at least a thousand miles to reverse the "feathering" wear pattern. I did not notice any negative effect on handling which I was concerned about.

I find it interesting that Bridgestone recommends rotation from side to side but BMW has never suggested it. I plan on taking this matter up with my Service Center.

Please see the message from Bridgestone below:
( I have deleted the engineer's name)


Your email was forwarded to me for response.

From your description of the situation you are experiencing with your
BMW tires I would conclude that your tires have an irregular wear
phenomenon we call "heel-and-toe" wear. Excessive heel-and-toe wear can
lead to the noise you mentioned. Irregular wear can happen when tires
are not rotated and the direction the tires turn is not reversed
periodically. Tires that are not rotated tend to wear more rapidly on
one edge of each tire element or "button" causing a saw tooth type wear
pattern. As tires are rotated, wear evens out.

The tires on your BMW are Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFT ultra high
performance runflat tires developed specifically for BMW. These tires
use an asymmetric tread pattern to provide the wet and dry grip required
by BMW. Asymmetric tread patterns have one side that should always be
mounted outside (identified by the 'OUTSIDE' marking on the tire
sidewall), but still allow rotation. Also, your tires are different
size front and rear, so the recommended rotation pattern is to cross the
tires on an axle (i.e. Left Front to Right Front; Right Front to Left
Front; and the same for the rear axle). This will reverse the direction
of rotation and even out the heel-and-toe (saw tooth) wear. Our
experience is that it may take a couple of thousand miles to completely
even out the irregular wear, but that you should start hearing a
difference within a couple of hundred miles.

Further, by way of prevention, I would recommend rotating any new set of
tires every 5,000 to 7,000 miles. This will catch that irregular wear
earlier in the process and eliminate it building to a noise issue.

Director, Consumer Products
Sales Engineering
Bridgestone Firestone North American Tire

[mryakan]

Very interesting, I may consider that. Thanks for posting.

Btw, BMW has forever recommended against tire rotation even before they started putting staggered and/or rotational tires as standard issue on some of their cars. I think it is due to their alignments settings, or maybe they are in bed with the tire companies, who knows!

[TambourineMan]

This is very interesting. When I get the time I am going to write to Continental and ask them the same thing about my Conti SSR's. I'll elt you know what they say.

I am particularly interest in this as I bought a full size tire and matching wheel to use as a spare and want to rotate that in to keep the wear level the same as possible among the five tires. I was planning to rotate it only into the passenger side (I have 17's all around).

[mryakan]

This is very interesting. When I get the time I am going to write to Continental and ask them the same thing about my Conti SSR's. I'll elt you know what they say.

I am particularly interest in this as I bought a full size tire and matching wheel to use as a spare and want to rotate that in to keep the wear level the same as possible among the five tires. I was planning to rotate it only into the passenger side (I have 17's all around).

If you rotate your spare you may get extra mileage out of all the tire but then your spare will eventually wear out and you need a new spare. Doesn't really make much sense to put the spare into the rotation schedule unless maybe you have a x-drive car.

Oh just noticed you do have the xi, so maybe putting the spare into the rotation makes sense for you so that if you need to use it, the tread difference between all the tires doesn't affect the x-drive system.

[ssigur]

Thanks for the info. Did not know you could rotate from side to side on stagger set up. This must only apply to RFT's because most radials have direction of rotation arrows..

[TambourineMan]

I am not a tire expert by any means, but I think tires come in three types : symmetrical, asymmetrical and directional (and possibly a combination of these, but I don't know about that). I think only symmetrical ones could be rotated from left to right without dismounting and remounting.

The asymmetrical ones have a different tread pattern on the left edge versus the right edge of the tire with one pattern being designed for the outer edge and one for the inner edge.

The directional ones are designed to rotate in one direction and to mount them on the other side the tire has to be flipped which then reverses the direction unless they are dismounted and remounted.

I think the advice against rotating radial belt tires from left to right comes from the fact that after a while the belts develop an internal set from being run on one side and rotating them left to right disturbs that.

BMW may not recommend rotating from left to right because they do not know what type of tire (symmetrical versus other) you have, nor whether a particular manufacturer's tires will develop a "set."

It does not make sense that BMW recommends against this because of alignment or suspension settings as I do not think these are changed when you put brand new tires on, sp why would they need to be changed if the tires are rotated side to side?

[mryakan]

Thanks for the info. Did not know you could rotate from side to side on stagger set up. This must only apply to RFT's because most radials have direction of rotation arrows..

Nothing to do with RFTs, it is just that the RE050A are not directional tires, just asymmetric.

[mryakan]

I am not a tire expert by any means, but I think tires come in three types : symmetrical, asymmetrical and directional (and possibly a combination of these, but I don't know about that). I think only symmetrical ones could be rotated from left to right without dismounting and remounting.

The asymmetrical ones have a different tread pattern on the left edge versus the right edge of the tire with one pattern being designed for the outer edge and one for the inner edge.

Again incorrect info. Asymmetrical tires can be switch left to right once mounted on a rim without needing anything special. The Asymmetrical nature only means they have an outside and inside sidewall so you need to pay attention to that when mounting the tire on the rim. But after that switching them from left to right doesn't change the position of which tread pattern is inside or outside, just try to imagine it for a second, this will help (before: Left |I, Right I|, after rotation: Left |I, Right I|).
Symmetrical tires as you mention can be rotated side to side with no issues unless they are directional.
If there are any tires that are directional and asymmetrical, then those cannot be switched from left to right ever and you'd better be careful when buying such tires to get the correct right side and left side combo (I haven't seen any evidence of the existence of such tires yet, but they could be out there!)

[ukthunderace]

This looks like the answer to the posting I put up a couple days ago asking exactly this question.

[luckywales]

I'm so lost with all this asymmetrical/directional mumbo jumbo.

I have a 335i with sports pack, and staggered tires. Can I, or can I not rotate the front left with the front right, and the back left with the back right? I mean without unmounting and remounting the tire from the rim...

My tires have arrows on them, if that helps...

[mryakan]

I'm so lost with all this asymmetrical/directional mumbo jumbo.

I have a 335i with sports pack, and staggered tires. Can I, or can I not rotate the front left with the front right, and the back left with the back right? I mean without unmounting and remounting the tire from the rim...

My tires have arrows on them, if that helps...

Arrows usually mean directional tires so the answer is NO. To be sure, post a pic of the full sidewall markings and we'll let you know. Simply if the have arrows, you cannot swap L to R.

[pikeNM]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there is *no* way to even out inner-tire wear (due to negative camber, for instance) without remounting tires, right?

If I rotate front to back (non-staggered setup, directional tires) or left to right (staggered setup, non-directional tires), I'm still not switching the inner part of the tire with the outer part, so I can't correct for inner-edge tire wear.

[ukthunderace]

Not unless you have some really weird rims that are capable of being mounted backwards.
Even with a normal non-staggered setup doing normal rotation, the outside of the tire before ends up being the outside after rotation.

[E92!Dreier]

Bridgestone and BMW both seem to want as little to do with the short life of the tires on my car as well (my tires are Potenzas, staggered on a 328i with sport package). Here is my story:

BMW SA says, "not only is your break squealing normal and unfixable, you need new tires." I say, "yes the tires are cupped and frayed, and are getting noticeably louder." He says, "you only have 17,000 miles...we cannot replace the brake pads, and there is no safety wire on this pad, the squealing is normal. There is no tire warranty, even at less than 20,000. You'll have to pay in full."

I said, "do nothing."

Eventually, after a bit of back and forth and a change of SA's, my brake pads were resurfaced by BMW, extra anti-squeal paste on back of pad (to prevent chatter with the caliper side) by me that weekend, personal inspection of the rotor seemed to reveal slight "crowning" of the rotor...ie, warping. Incidence of ice-cream truck like sounds have diminished, as has my confidence in BMW Ultimate Service. Onto the tires...

After calls to Bridgestone (awesome customer service), I felt that I was equipped with better knowledge about the problem. Thanks Eric. BMW's staggered setup inhibits proper rotation of the tires. BMW (and other manufacturers') rear toe angle contribute to excessive cupping and focuses treadwear to the edge of the tires. BMW's refusal to rotate as part of their service program contributes to even more rapid tire wear. You should consider side to side swaps if it is possible. This tire is ultra-high-performance, and it is a runflat, these things combine to make the tire short life. It has no warranty for wear at all. I learned that these tires have a tread wear rating of 140. The lowest number allowable according to the DOT is 100.

Now, after becoming an expert on RFT's, and my warranty and lease agreement, BMW's regional representative has authorized my new SA to purhcase one tire for me, so long as that it is done before the car hits 20,000 miles. This "gratuity" seems to have more to do with purchase history than anything else. One tire on their dime will save me at least 300 dollars, as tirerack.com lists theses tires for 1,267.00 shipped. Brakes will be reinspected in two weeks, to coincide with the tire's installation.

Really just thought I would relate my experience, try to contribute to the collective knowledge base!

[mryakan]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there is *no* way to even out inner-tire wear (due to negative camber, for instance) without remounting tires, right?

If I rotate front to back (non-staggered setup, directional tires) or left to right (staggered setup, non-directional tires), I'm still not switching the inner part of the tire with the outer part, so I can't correct for inner-edge tire wear.

Correct, but you do reverse the direction of rotation by going side to side which according to the Bridgestone response seems to help. To be honest I stopped rotating my tires periodically for quite a while now, except when I am switching from the winter to summer tires and vice versa. I came to the conclusion that the extra cost in $$ and time to go in and get them rotated every 5000 miles or so almost negates the 10% or so extra tread life and thus cost saving I get by rotating. It is a fact of life that high performance tires wear out faster, just the nature of the soft compound used. Also the alignment settings on BMWs combined with spirited driving will exasperate the wear. If you buy a high performance car with high performance tires, just plan on changing tires every 15-20K miles and learn to live with it.

[E92!Dreier]

Correct, but you do reverse the direction of rotation by going side to side which according to the Bridgestone response seems to help. To be honest I stopped rotating my tires periodically for quite a while now, except when I am switching from the winter to summer tires and vice versa. I came to the conclusion that the extra cost in $$ and time to go in and get them rotated every 5000 miles or so almost negates the 10% or so extra tread life and thus cost saving I get by rotating. It is a fact of life that high performance tires wear out faster, just the nature of the soft compound used. Also the alignment settings on BMWs combined with spirited driving will exasperate the wear. If you buy a high performance car with high performance tires, just plan on changing tires every 15-20K miles and learn to live with it.

[pikeNM]

Correct, but you do reverse the direction of rotation by going side to side which according to the Bridgestone response seems to help. To be honest I stopped rotating my tires periodically for quite a while now, except when I am switching from the winter to summer tires and vice versa. I came to the conclusion that the extra cost in $$ and time to go in and get them rotated every 5000 miles or so almost negates the 10% or so extra tread life and thus cost saving I get by rotating. It is a fact of life that high performance tires wear out faster, just the nature of the soft compound used. Also the alignment settings on BMWs combined with spirited driving will exasperate the wear. If you buy a high performance car with high performance tires, just plan on changing tires every 15-20K miles and learn to live with it.

Agreed. I like the idea of the side-to-side swap, at least to minimize tire noise issues (as described by Bridgestone) near the end of the tire's life. I hate the idea of remounting tires in general... a big PITA.

[sois]

I realize this is more appropriate for the tire forum, but since I've seen this topic come up so often I thought I'd place the information re. tire noise with the RFT tires that I recvd from Bridgstone today.

I know this has been an ongoing topic in various forums. I recvd this very interesting information direct from Bridgestone this morning.

BTW - My BMW Service Center Service manager recommended NOT rotating the tires when I suggested this a few days ago. I then decided to contact Bridgestone. This all came about when my 18" Potenzas started making a lot noise almost overnight at the 15k mark. They still have a lot of tread left. I rotated my own tires last night, but the engineer indicated it may take at least a thousand miles to reverse the "feathering" wear pattern. I did not notice any negative effect on handling which I was concerned about.

I find it interesting that Bridgestone recommends rotation from side to side but BMW has never suggested it. I plan on taking this matter up with my Service Center.

Please see the message from Bridgestone below:
( I have deleted the engineer's name)


Your email was forwarded to me for response.

From your description of the situation you are experiencing with your
BMW tires I would conclude that your tires have an irregular wear
phenomenon we call "heel-and-toe" wear. Excessive heel-and-toe wear can
lead to the noise you mentioned. Irregular wear can happen when tires
are not rotated and the direction the tires turn is not reversed
periodically. Tires that are not rotated tend to wear more rapidly on
one edge of each tire element or "button" causing a saw tooth type wear
pattern. As tires are rotated, wear evens out.

The tires on your BMW are Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFT ultra high
performance runflat tires developed specifically for BMW. These tires
use an asymmetric tread pattern to provide the wet and dry grip required
by BMW. Asymmetric tread patterns have one side that should always be
mounted outside (identified by the 'OUTSIDE' marking on the tire
sidewall), but still allow rotation. Also, your tires are different
size front and rear, so the recommended rotation pattern is to cross the
tires on an axle (i.e. Left Front to Right Front; Right Front to Left
Front; and the same for the rear axle). This will reverse the direction
of rotation and even out the heel-and-toe (saw tooth) wear. Our
experience is that it may take a couple of thousand miles to completely
even out the irregular wear, but that you should start hearing a
difference within a couple of hundred miles.

Further, by way of prevention, I would recommend rotating any new set of
tires every 5,000 to 7,000 miles. This will catch that irregular wear
earlier in the process and eliminate it building to a noise issue.

Director, Consumer Products
Sales Engineering
Bridgestone Firestone North American Tire

Hey all,

Just put my bridgestone rft summers back on this am on my 335i. I was puzzled for a bit because the sipes would clearly be running in a different direction, depending on whether I mounted the tire on the left or right, even if they are not "directional."

Any thoughts on how this may affect the tires performance?

I find this very interesting because switching them from left to right clearly does change the tire pattern (at least direction/nature of the sipes) contacting the road.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Sois.

[mryakan]

Hey all,

Just put my bridgestone rft summers back on this am on my 335i. I was puzzled for a bit because the sipes would clearly be running in a different direction, depending on whether I mounted the tire on the left or right, even if they are not "directional."

Any thoughts on how this may affect the tires performance?

I find this very interesting because switching them from left to right clearly does change the tire pattern (at least direction/nature of the sipes) contacting the road.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Sois.

I didn't bother to rotate mine when i switched back 2 weeks ago. Non directional tires can turn in either direction, and if they are directional, it will say on the sidewall and there will be an arrow indicating direction of rotation.

[ptinvt]

On this "1% business" and "especially for AWD cars"

If it's so bad to had a disparity in rolling radii, why do xi's come with runflats and the manual says I can go 150 miles on a blown tire if it's just me and no passengers/baggage? If I'm rolling on the rim with flat tire, the diameter disparity has to be in the 30% ballpark for the running-flat tire. So it's OK to be off 30% for one tire for 150 miles but not 2% for regular use? hmm.

Really thinking about switching to non-RFTs and carrying a compact spare in my trunk. Tell me why that's not a good idea in my 328xi?

[mryakan]

On this "1% business" and "especially for AWD cars"

If it's so bad to had a disparity in rolling radii, why do xi's come with runflats and the manual says I can go 150 miles on a blown tire if it's just me and no passengers/baggage? If I'm rolling on the rim with flat tire, the diameter disparity has to be in the 30% ballpark for the running-flat tire. So it's OK to be off 30% for one tire for 150 miles but not 2% for regular use? hmm.

Really thinking about switching to non-RFTs and carrying a compact spare in my trunk. Tell me why that's not a good idea in my 328xi?

The thing with runflats is they keep they shape and size even when completely deflated, so your logic doesn't apply. If you don't believe me, have someone puncture one of your runflats without you knowing which one and see if you can figure out which it is without using a gauge, I couldn't.
As for the spare on the xi, better use a full size one, not a donut.

[slvrXI]

Compact spare? What is the advantage to that? Are you trying to save on weight... Or you just don't like the space it takes up, if that's the situation why not just purchase the ///M Mobility kit? That is what they put in all the M cars instead of a spare tire. It is just a pump with sealer. You use it once, then buy a new one.

Of course if you have a complete tire failure where the tire shreds into pieces, then you're out of luck. But it works great for running over that nail/screw in the street, or any other puncture wound.

[ptinvt]

I guess I'm clueless. Yes, I'd be considering a compact spare to save trunk space if I downgrade to non-RFT's since there's NO ROOM FOR A SPARE BELOW (thank you BMW)

But I thought RFT wheels were special in their design, the way the RFT tires mounted on them, was so that you could basically roll on the rim and what was left of the tire if you had a full blowout? Why can't you put RFT tires on any rim if they keep their shape/diameter without pressure?

Sorry, kinda threadjacking, I've tried to research this but the search terms are just too generic.

I may try letting all the air out of one my tires (at the gas station) and see what happens. I will stand humbly corrected if the sidewall maintains height with no pressure. That would explain, however, why hitting a pothole with RFT is pretty much like hitting a curb :/

thanks BF
-PT

[mryakan]

I guess I'm clueless. Yes, I'd be considering a compact spare to save trunk space if I downgrade to non-RFT's since there's NO ROOM FOR A SPARE BELOW (thank you BMW)

But I thought RFT wheels were special in their design, the way the RFT tires mounted on them, was so that you could basically roll on the rim and what was left of the tire if you had a full blowout? Why can't you put RFT tires on any rim if they keep their shape/diameter without pressure?

Sorry, kinda threadjacking, I've tried to research this but the search terms are just too generic.

I may try letting all the air out of one my tires (at the gas station) and see what happens. I will stand humbly corrected if the sidewall maintains height with no pressure. That would explain, however, why hitting a pothole with RFT is pretty much like hitting a curb :/

thanks BF
-PT

You are confusing 2 different things. RFTs are meant to keep their shape and support capabilities when completely deflated, but they can peel off of regular rims under a blowout condition. BMW OEM rims have a second lip that keeps the tires from peeling off, they basically augment your RFT protection. They call them EH2 wheels.

Check this out: