Aftermarket Water Pumps

[Kenzo]

Just got off the phone with a non-Dealer and will respected BMW mechanic and "builder" here in Houston.

They are making repairs after the oil pump nut fell off and I will post the results of that later.

We were talking about prevenative maintenance items. I mentioned that I replaced my water pump at 48K miles. He asked what water pump manufacturer I used. Told him the one with the cast iron impeller( Bimmerparts.com). He said I should replace it with the new OE factory composite unit good for 60- 75K miles. He's not sure the reason but they have seen failures of those units(cast iron impeller) in as little as 20K miles. Also the cast impeller can cause additional damage.

I had read here where someone had a quick failure as he suggested.

I will be changing mine soon with the OE unit, list price $87.95. Cheap insurance in my book and not an item I want to skimp on. Just wanted to give you a "heads up".

[G. P. Burdell]

Eep! I just put one of those aftermarket pumps with the cast impeller (Graf or Geba, I can't remember) in my car about 20k miles ago.

Kenzo, do you have any information on the brand of pump that's been failing, or if it is a problem with all pumps with cast impellers? Also, do you know what kinds of failures they have been seeing (bad bearings, shaft failure, cracked impellers)?

[Kenzo]

You want the OE composite, looks and feels like metal I'm told or welded SS steel OE(this was in my 99).

The cast impeller types are the problem pumps. Failure mode uncertain but cast impeller has in some cases caused additional damage to surface it spins inside.

[////\/\ark]

Kenzo, thanks for giving the heads-up. I have a metal impeller pump waiting to be installed, but I may return it and get an OE one. Do you by any chance have a part number for this OE composite pump? Thanks!

edit: and what year bmw is the composite pump from? in other words, if I went to a dealer in order to find this part, what year/model should I tell them it's from? thanks again.

[OG Skooler]

Wow, I really was fortunate to have forgotten to order a water pump from Bavarian Autosport when I did my replacements.

I got one from the Stealer, the composite one and must say that I am impressed with it. The impeller feels and sounds like steel when you tap it but is really a composite.:buttrock

If you live in the San Jose area, go see Paul at Stevens Creek BMW. Knowledgable parts man and all around good guy.

[////\/\ark]

I just called Pacific BMW, and I found out that the part number for the composite pump is:

11 51 7 527 799

If anyone can confirm this somehow, that would be great. I'll probably be returning my cast pump and getting the composite. There's no sense in saving $20 or $30 for something that may cause big time damage, in my mind.

[paul e]

My 'M3 is one of the last '99s produced. Do we know which water pump it came with?

[jgerry2002]

Interesting that the new pump is composite.

So from reading all the treads (and adding some of my own knowledge) the E36 waterpump history (6 cylinder) looks like:

1) All cars had plastic water pumps through 8 or 9 or 10/96 production date. These usually broke somewhere north of 60,000 (assuming average street car) and you end up overheating.

2) From 8 or 9 or 10/96 until ?/99/00/01?? they went with the metal water pumps. Reliability has been pretty good with these. As a datapoint I'm at 82,000 on my 12/96 production metal water pump right now.

3) Now they have gone to composite pumps, they seem to last as long as the metal type. Pump is probably too new to have any real world data.

-Note: Some other "OEM" aftermarket pumps, although they were metal are of poor quality. Bad "OEM" aftermarket waterpumps have plagued BMW's since the 2002 days.

Anyone have any more specifics?

-Justin
'76 02
'97 m3

[crazn]

So the waterpump that came with my 98 m3 is the "more reliable" one, right? You guys would still definitly recommend me to replacing to a composit waterpump. (@ 80,000 miles now)
I am just a little confused, some are saying, metal, some are saying composite is best for replacement...

[Kenzo]

Originally posted by ////\/\ark
I just called Pacific BMW, and I found out that the part number for the composite pump is:

11 51 7 527 799

If anyone can confirm this somehow, that would be great. I'll probably be returning my cast pump and getting the composite. There's no sense in saving $20 or $30 for something that may cause big time damage, in my mind.

That's the one I purchased yesterday, $67.96 + tax(CCA discount). It's hard black plastic that's a different design/shape of old problem units.

[Kenzo]

Originally posted by paul e
My 'M3 is one of the last '99s produced. Do we know which water pump it came with?

My 3/99 production had a ss metal welded unit. Replaced at ~46K with cast, now replacing at ~51K with OE BMW plastic.

Anyone that still thinks the cast metal one is good I have one with less than 5K miles I'll sell for cheap.

[Kenzo]

Originally posted by crazn
So the waterpump that came with my 98 m3 is the "more reliable" one, right? You guys would still definitly recommend me to replacing to a composit waterpump. (@ 80,000 miles now)
I am just a little confused, some are saying, metal, some are saying composite is best for replacement...

If you have 80K on your waterpump I would replace the new OE BMW pump(black plastic).

There may be a few welded stainless steel BMW OE's left which are also good but being replaced by new plastic units as stock is depleted.

Cast iron(metal OEM) bad...

Stainless steel (welded metal OE)good...

Old plastic bad...

New plastic good...

Everyone confused? Good.

[nydog]

damn just ordered a metal impeller one from bimmerparts

[nydog]

has anyone one had any problems with the one from bimmer parts?

[frayed]

Kenzo, why did you replace your original with 48k on the clock? I was under an impression that the 97+ metal were pretty durable (although the new composite may be better).

[BJO]

Kenny, I have used 2 Geba metal impeller water pumps w/out major issues. The first pump lasted about 50k until the freeze plug started leaking. The second one has around 25k on it and no probs so far. Did BMS give any more details on the failures? Were these on the track or street?

[M3325]

My original metal pump in my 97 M3 started leaking at 38,000 miles.

[Kenzo]

Originally posted by frayed
Kenzo, why did you replace your original with 48k on the clock? I was under an impression that the 97+ metal were pretty durable (although the new composite may be better).


Originally posted by BJO
Kenny, I have used 2 Geba metal impeller water pumps w/out major issues. The first pump lasted about 50k until the freeze plug started leaking. The second one has around 25k on it and no probs so far. Did BMS give any more details on the failures? Were these on the track or street?

When the OE BMW fail it's usally the bearings, they lock up throwing the belt(s). The can take out your fan and even the radiator. You are going no where. This typically takes place from 40K-75K miles(from different sources & Rondel confirms). When I removed my OE BMW SS welded metal pump there was some "play" in the bearings, the new OE plastic bearings are tight as a drum.

The OEM cast iron impeller units(OEM/Geba/Bimmerparts) have reported failures <10K miles wth the results above. PLUS the cast iron impeller has damaged the interior surface where the impeller spins with expensive repairs. The OEM cast iron impeller units(OEM/Geba/Bimmerparts) I purchase had "play" in the bearings new out of the box! It is being replaced with new OE BMW plastic with ~5K miles on it(will be my spare...maybe).

Who's to say the OE BMW won't fail when I first pull out of the drive way. But with confirmed reported failures plus additional damage it's not where I'm willing to cut corners. Same with OEM thermostat from Bimmerparts(it's now my spare) it is not by the OE manufacturer and just plain looks inferior/cheaper. On the other hand Bimmerparts belts ARE by the OE manufacturer just lack BMW logo and are cool with me.

It's just a choice everyone must make for themselves. I just wanted to give everyone a heads-up on the facts from reliable sources.

[Entelechy]

Kenzo,

MANY THANKS for the heads-up. I happened to be having my mechanic change the water pump today and just sent him your post; now we're going to try to get the composite. Thanks as well to those who posted the part #.

Hope the part is readily available - if it's on order, I think I'm just going to go with the metal version. I'm trying to have all the "common issues" sorted out before the car arrives in LA.

Thanks again,
~Chris

[frayed]

Interesting, looks like a new water pump is in order. Since I'm in there, I suppose I should just go ahead and put the cam kit in too.

[aus]

Originally posted by frayed
Since I'm in there, I suppose I should just go ahead and put the cam kit in too.

That's the kind of logic we like here.

[frayed]

:)

[Kenzo]

Yeah, I was thinking about bolting on a Super Charger when I was changing my oil the other day. :-p

I need one to keep up the the young hot shoes...getting old and sloooow...

[////\/\ark]

Well I just got off the phone with Pacific BMW. I placed an order for the composite pump, and I'm packing up my cast iron one to ship back to pelican parts. The total cost from Pacific was $68 with shipping (to Pittsburgh). :clap:

[thurst0509]

bump so others can see this. I also just ordered the part from Pacific BMW.

I ordered the same part number ////\/\ark listed above: 11 51 7 527 799. hopefully it is the right one :)

my total was $73 and some change shipped to Dallas

[kengsx]

I ordered the OEM composite water pump through Supremepower (great to do business with BTW) and they said the dealership told them p/n 11 517 527 799 was superceded with 11 511 740 241A. This new one has a black plastic impeller and no visible reinforcement that would make it composite, although maybe it is under a surface layer of resin.

I've been following the water pump threads, and thought I new which one to get vs the metal one and vs the old plastic design. I admit this is fairly confusing. Maybe BMW wants us to get that paranoid feeling every 5K miles and replace the water pump with a superceded design.:stickoutt

Sorry to keep this going. BTW, this is my first post here.

Ken Young

[sfmng]

Just picked up a new water pump from BMW yesterday. The part number on the box is still 11 517 527 799. It has a plastic-looking black impeller on it. When you tap on it, it sound like metal of some sort.

I have a Geba I bought awhile ago and was going to install it until I read this thread. Decided to go with this new BMW pump instead and keep the Geba for a backup. The coolant is now dripping on the garage floor...hehe...it just started a week ago. Just waiting for my cooling kit from Bimmerparts to arrive! ;)

[Daved]

Originally posted by kengsx
...Maybe BMW wants us to get that paranoid feeling every 5K miles and replace the water pump with a superceded design.:stickoutt

Sorry to keep this going. BTW, this is my first post here.

Ken Young
:lol: Cool first post ;)


My car had the original bad plastic w/p for 70K miles with no probs at all but I changed it with the new black plastic (looks like some kind of black metal to me) impeller b/c I got scared of having the bad plastic one after reading so many warning advices here :) Hope I got the right one.

[binh]

My Graf metal impellar just failed...prior to the failure my car was making squeeking noises.... i had it for less than 6 months...

it took the radiator and the drive belt with it...and caused the car to overheat...

DO NOT BUY OEM AFTERMARKET..

go to the dealer and put money out for hte new composite design with black impellar..

I wish i did...learned my lesson...

[Johno]

But with confirmed reported failures

Who are these failures reported by and who confirmed them? What is the frequency of failure vs. number installed?

What is the confirmed/reported failure rate of the original plastic and the recent metal, say in a 99M3?

Until we know the relative failure rates, are posts like this really enough data to go on?

Are we getting lathered up without any real good data? Are the reports the tip of the iceberg or inflated by sample bias?

Even with a common accepted problem like the sticky 5 or the RSM, we don't see any data here on what the actual failure rate is.

Post after post of "I heard about a problem" is not anywhere near scientific valid data to go on.

Which bring me to an idea. Would it be possible to somehow construct a database in which we input data on the cars and various parts? I know it would be a hell of a lot of work, perhaps, and it still wouldn't be scientifically valid because of the inherent bias toward people with problems being the ones who enter the data. But it would be interesting and more useful than hearsay.

[Balthazarr]

Good idea...you start.

Then we can make a 3 dim graph: my vs pump manufacturer vs type of failure or something like that.

Mine had a plastic OE failure at 55K. Replaced by dealer with another plastic pump in 2000.
Pulled that out when i did alum radiator switch.
I currently run the composite.

[Johno]

I don't know anything about how to build an online database. All I know is I have the original pump at 77K. I have the greba pump on the way from Bimmerparts and see this post and the pother related ones.

It got me thinking about the reliabilty of Internet posts as a basis for parts purchase. How do we know if the reported failure or success of a particular part is at all an accurate reflection of reality?

One thing I notice here is there is a lot of energy around the idea that RSMs need to be replaced, or this or that component is good or bad. (In the case of the RSM, one look in there made me personally real comfortable with adding z3 plates. There is no downside to that choice.)

But if you ask a specific technical question about how to tell which fuel sending unit is the bad one, there is practically zero advice on that.

The subjective zones are where all of the "definitive" posts are made.

[bimmer95]

Wait until you see the craptacular build quality of the OEM pump, early failure is definitely not a surprise.

[Johno]

OK, I'll wait until I lay eyes on it before I say more.

But I still think I have a valid question about what to listen to here and what to dismiss -- about this part or that being better.

BTW, what is the warranty with your water pump? How long will you guarantee that there will be no problems with it.

What is the part number on your pump?

My understanding is the new composite pump has not been out long, and there is really no reliability data on it.

Thanks,

[bimmer95]

The pump that I stock is #11-51-7-527-799, BMW warranties them for 1 year. They've been around for 3 or 4 years and I've never heard of a single failure.

[arkie6]

I had a replacement Geba waterpump w/cast iron impeller start leaking at the seal in about 1 year/10,000 miles. There was no other damage as a result of the leak - just a drizzle of coolant residue thrown off by the pulley and belts. That pump replaced the OE pump w/plastic impeller which was still functional but had some cracks in the impeller at ~115,000 miles. My current pump is the newest model from BMW (~$60 from PacificBMW), but I don't think the impeller is composite. It looks like some sort of composite material, but I think it is just a black coating on a lightweight aluminum impeller. It definitely has a metallic ring to it when tapped.

[Johno]

I just got the cooling kit from Bimmerparts and everything looks fine to me. The Geba pump is going in. The build quality looks fine and I like living on the ragged edge, so in it goes. Frankly, I'm more worried about finding my way through the belt tensioning and the coolant bleed etc., for the first time than I am the pump failing.

Frankly, the idea that we're even needing to "discuss" which replacement pump to put in at 70K miles is pretty silly. I mean, I've never owned a car where the water pump and radiator were considered maintance items. I just replaced the water pump on the Cutlass two years ago after 32 years in service, and that radiator lasted 23 years before it needed a tube cut out and plugged.

So now I have some "mods" stacked in a holding pattern:

Cooling kit (w/metal t-housing..) In this case the t-housing is the mod. Good for at least two horsepower.

Rod Stygar clutch pedal. (Another 2 hp)

Understeer short shift kit w/ WSR using SILVER solder for better intertial conductivity. (1 HP)

Koni stickers -- 25 hp.

Could life be sweeter?

[Seamore]

Thank god for this thread. I had my water pump replace by a service shop here at about 65K miles. 20K miles after I started to have a leak. First the belts went and started to sqeek and the shop thought it was the pulleys. I continue to drive the car until it started to leak coolant and almost overheated once. I than found the radiator have blown so I went forth and replaced the radiator. Leak is still there to my surprise so I bought all the parts I need to do the fan delete mod which means I replaced thermostate, both upper and lower hoses, new fan switch. After install all of them yesterday I still get a leak. I think I am coming down to the only part that could fail which is the water pump. However, I could not believe the water pump was leaking since it was replace not too long ago. Anyways, now I know why I will purchase an new water pump from Pacific and install it to see if this will cure the problem.

[ibrahim83]

i've been havign the same problem, replaced my old one with a new geba from bimmerparts. a have a major leak now, i've taken apart the thermostat housgin 4 times now thinking that was the problem, because i changed the thermostat not too long ago, but i guess it's the POS waterpump!

i'll be changing that soon, and if it still leaks, i'm selling the car. i've had enough! :mad

my 87 mercedes is all original and i never had any overheating problems!

i just hope a new OE pump fixes it. i bought my car with 45k miles on it, changed the pump at 46k, and i'm at 52k miles today and i think it has failed!

it hasn't been 6 months since i changed it. i hope bimmerparts warrants this POS pump.

i'll keep you updated.

[jgerry2002]

No problems here with the new OE composite pump, I've probably put 10k-20k on mine.

A tech friend at my local (formerly local) bmw dealer said he has not seen any failures of the new OE water pumps. I believe all BMW water pumps use the same type of composite impeller now.

Don't blame the car for the crappy aftermarket water pump. When water pumps fail, the fluid usually comes right out of the main shaft, pull your engine fan/fan clutch off and it should be obvious. You may even want to pull the main belt off and see if you can detect some play in the water pump.

-Justin

[ibrahim83]

No problems here with the new OE composite pump, I've probably put 10k-20k on mine.

A tech friend at my local (formerly local) bmw dealer said he has not seen any failures of the new OE water pumps. I believe all BMW water pumps use the same type of composite impeller now.

Don't blame the car for the crappy aftermarket water pump. When water pumps fail, the fluid usually comes right out of the main shaft, pull your engine fan/fan clutch off and it should be obvious. You may even want to pull the main belt off and see if you can detect some play in the water pump.

-Justin

i have performed the fan delete mod sometime during april, and i NEVER had my temp needle budge over the half mark.

it went up to the 3/4 line on multiple occasions recently, and sometimes with temps of around 55-60F during the night, which perplexed me! i thought it was the thermostat, but i guess it isn't.

i just finished degreasing my engine, because it was ALL a blue mess from the belts spraying coolant all over my engine compartment. i'll check tomorrow and see if i can find any trace of coolant. and if there's a DROP anywhere near the pump, it's gone!

i just couln't figure out what i was doing wrong with the t-stat housing install, because i did it once and it went in perfect.

i also realised the overheating was due to my coolant being low. i guess the fan switch doesn't work properly unless the radiator is full with coolant.

i'm trying to troubleshoot the whole problem and try to figure out what's up.

it's really wierd, the car started overheating a bit when i stop, but cools down immediatly when i move. then i got white stuff on my CAI tube, so i thought to myself, everything's been changed except the t-stat. so i did it, and since then i've been having the leaking problem, but i'm almost 100% sure i reinstalling the t-stat and it's housing the right way. hoses aren't leaking, and neither is the radiator.

i hate fixing problems by elimination and having to go over everything again and again.

i'll keep you guys updated. :(

[Seamore]

Actually I am getting the exact same thing. I have cleaned up all the coolant spill all over the engine bay. You will also find tons of coolant below the water pump such as on flywheel, oil pan and etc. I haven't degrease my engine bay yet but that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

I have another twist on my water pump purchase. I ordered the water pump and all the pulleys on driver side of the car from Pacific BMW and the total comes to $178 and some change. I have always been very happy with purchases from Pacific BMW. However, I was trying to use my bank / charge card yesterday (Thursday) morning and my card keep on declining on me. It got me really wondered about my account so be a good researcher that I am I went to my bank's website to check on my account. Guess what I found!! I found I have purchased a water pump and four pulleys for $1178.89. That's right I got them some ultra high-tech, hi-performance water pump. I also saw there are $99 worth of overdraft charges. I immediately called Pacific BMW and they told me they have made a mistake. I also request they paid for the overdraft charges and they told me they will attemp to get that credit to me. As of Friday 2:02 PM I have yet to seen my parts nor the credit from Pacific BMW..:( I guess I will give them a call.

[ibrahim83]

^ sorry about that. mistakes happen i guess.

well, i took off everything today and installed a brand new BMW water pump.

well, needless to say, i won't buy OEM products ever again. unless they're a performance upgrade.

yes, my GEBA POS pump failed at about 5k miles! :mad no leaks or anything now. :alright

i'm keeping my baby :redspot

but i'll keep on checking things out under there, this ordeal has made me paranoid. i'll give you guys a week's update.

later! :cool

[Seamore]

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH, water pump replaced and no leak so far. Pacific BMW also agree to pay for my overdraft fees. They are awesome. I explain the situation and they immediately agree to pay for mistake. I will keep an eye on the water pump and coolant level over the next couple of weeks. I am gonna take a nice San Diego trip next weekend to go see Shamu...:)

[Hornswoggler]

Thank goodness for this thread!!!

I have one of the craptacular bimmerparts waterpumps that I almost installed tonight... good thing I didn't!!!

I'll make a run to the dealer tonight ASAP. While I have my radiator and fan out of the way (putting in a zionsville), no time better to replace it.

Car has 107k miles on factory waterpump (05/97 build date) so its probably about due!

[Seamore]

Well, till this date, Pacific BMW have not pay for my overdrift. I have talked with Gabriel few times and he always just tell me he will call me back. I talked with their general manager Terry and she said she would call me back and that was last Wed. I guess Pacific BMW really don't care about their customers. I find it kind of odd since they have always been very good. Perhaps it's time for me to take them to small claims court.

[nightkrawler]

i got the bimmer parts one and it replaced a metal impeller one that was shot. it seems to be a quality unit, mine had no play in it whatsoever and everything looked tight so i put it in, no problems.

[indicaM3]

so who can tell me what pump i got then, from a local bmw specialist: 11 51 1 433 828

[WTFPENGUIN]

do I need to worry about this on a 3/99 M3?

It's a small cost to be careful, while I'm under the hood, might as well change the oil, add Cosmos intake. Next oil change it's time for 3.5hfm and software.

And somewhere in there I'll do the oil nut lock

[Hornswoggler]

I compared the BMW waterpump (from dealership) to the one from bimmerparts.com, and absolutely NO CONTEST!!!

First, the impellars looked night and day. The BMW part was much lighter, and looked much more efficient.

Second, the resistance needed to turn the waterpump by hand was MUCH less in the factory BMW part. That's gotta be worth atleast 1+ HP! :alright

[clumpymold]

I compared the BMW waterpump (from dealership) to the one from bimmerparts.com, and absolutely NO CONTEST!!!

First, the impellars looked night and day. The BMW part was much lighter, and looked much more efficient.

Second, the resistance needed to turn the waterpump by hand was MUCH less in the factory BMW part. That's gotta be worth atleast 1+ HP! :alright
So which water pump should I get? I'm replacing my thermostat soon and am wondering if this is the correct part #:

11-51-7-527-799

It seems to have been replaced by this one:

11 51 1 722 536Z

I'm getting it here:

http://www.autohausaz.com/catalog/lookup_parts.cfm?VehicleID=0&CFID=351419&CFToken=25572390&partnum=11511722536Z

Is that a good deal?

Thanks!

[bimmer95]

Is that a good deal?
No, because that's a POS pump made by Graf, not an OE BMW pump.

[clumpymold]

No, because that's a POS pump made by Graf, not an OE BMW pump.
Hmm...when I typed in the part # you listed above, that's what they came up with. They said that part # is now "superceded" by this one. So what's the part number for the non-POS one then? The same as the one you posted (11-51-7-527-799)?

And where can I find the "good" one? I'm guessing my stock metal one is going to fail soon or no? I have ~85k miles on my car now.

[bimmer95]

The website you looked up only sells OEM garbage, not real BMW parts, hence why they "superceded" the real BMW part number to their own made up part number. You can get the correct OE BMW pump and any real BMW or understeer.com :)

[clumpymold]

The website you looked up only sells OEM garbage, not real BMW parts, hence why they "superceded" the real BMW part number to their own made up part number. You can get the correct OE BMW pump and any real BMW or understeer.com :)
I'm confused. I thought OEM was REAL BMW parts. Hence "original equipment from the manufacturer". How can it be OEM and "garbage"?

The part #s appear to be the same. Unless they're selling fake stuff. So are the parts I purchased for my thermostat on that website fake? How can I tell? :(

[bimmer95]

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer
OE = Original Equipment

An OEM might make parts for some car company, not necessarily BMW, regardless the parts are typically not up to OE standards, hence why they're sold cheaper and without the BMW logo. OE are true BMW replacement parts of a known quality. Many OEM parts are fine, the water pump is NOT one of those parts. Thermostat, probabaly okay as they're not quite as critcal. The OEM pump manufactures (Geba and Graf) use poorly cast impellers that have come apart on several cars (chunks of cast iron in your cooling system are WAY worse than plastic bits) and use poor quality seals and bearings that have been known to fail in under a year. Do yourself a huge favor and do NOT install an OEM pump. Real BMW parts will come from a BMW dealer (that's where I buy the pumps I carry) and will have a BMW logo on the box, tag or part. All of the WorldPac (http://www.worldpac.com/) companies (bimmerparts, alloembmw, etc) carry only OEM parts.

[clumpymold]

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer
OE = Original Equipment

An OEM might make parts for some car company, not necessarily BMW, regardless the parts are typically not up to OE standards, hence why they're sold cheaper and without the BMW logo. OE are true BMW replacement parts of a known quality. Many OEM parts are fine, the water pump is NOT one of those parts. Thermostat, probabaly okay as they're not quite as critcal. The OEM pump manufactures (Geba and Graf) use poorly cast impellers that have come apart on several cars (chunks of cast iron in your cooling system are WAY worse than plastic bits) and use poor quality seals and bearings that have been known to fail in under a year. Do yourself a huge favor and do NOT install an OEM pump. Real BMW parts will come from a BMW dealer (that's where I buy the pumps I carry) and will have a BMW logo on the box, tag or part. All of the WorldPac (http://www.worldpac.com/) companies (bimmerparts, alloembmw, etc) carry only OEM parts.
Ahh, I think that makes sense. I never realized this. So I guess I have to look for that BMW logo then, right?

So would I need to replace my water pump? I'm assuming it's the stock one (metal - my car's build date is 07/97). I have about 85k miles on it now.

[bimmer95]

So I guess I have to look for that BMW logo then, right?
Yup!


So would I need to replace my water pump?
You might not "need" to, but it's not a bad idea. The impeller won't fall apart, but the seals will eventually start leaking causing the bearings to fail. Could be years before that happens though.

[switlikbob]

I have a 95 m3 with 78,000 miles. I was driving home on the PA turnpike tonight and noticed that the temp gauge was headed towards the red. The car was running fine, so I pulled over slowly to avoid danger. I let the car cool and limped home. Thank God I was a block away when that happened. I took a look under the hood and saw a little splatter of coolant, but nothing crazy. I didn't hear any belts snap or see any radiator damage. Is there anything else that could have been damaged? And most importantly, how much is it going to cost me to get fixed / how long does the job take?

TIA---bob :evil2

[shim]

bump for a good thread. i was about to install a POS graf metal water pump & now i am putting in a composite metal one. i found a good price at www.eap4parts.com

[Hornswoggler]

bump for a good thread. i was about to install a POS graf metal water pump & now i am putting in a composite metal one. i found a good price at www.eap4parts.com

:clap

So did you ever compare the graf pump and BMW pump side-by-side? I found the BMW pump to be well worth the price difference.

If anybody still wants to save a few bucks and go GRAF, send me a LOWBALL offer on my new one... you might be surprised how cheap I will sell it. It is garbage compared to the water pump from the dealership.

[clumpymold]

:clap

So did you ever compare the graf pump and BMW pump side-by-side? I found the BMW pump to be well worth the price difference.

If anybody still wants to save a few bucks and go GRAF, send me a LOWBALL offer on my new one... you might be surprised how cheap I will sell it. It is garbage compared to the water pump from the dealership.
This is confusing. How many different types are there? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there are these versions:

BMW metal one
BMW composite one
BMW plastic one
Graf one
OEM style one (non-BMW)

Is that correct?

[bimmer95]

Graf one
OEM style one (non-BMW)
Those are the same. Graf and Geba both make OEM pumps, both are crap.

[Hornswoggler]

This is confusing. How many different types are there? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there are these versions:

BMW metal one
BMW composite one
BMW plastic one
Graf one
OEM style one (non-BMW)

Is that correct?

Add Geba and Laso to that list.

I think you need to better understand the difference between OEM and OE. OEM does NOT always mean it is of the same quality standard of the original part.

ok, so I can't find any good internet resources right now to really explain it, so I'll try my best:

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer. An OEM is a company who builds and provides the parts to companies such as BMW or Ford or <car manufacturer> for them to either use to build your car, or put in BMW brand packaging and resell to you. That's all good and fine as long as you get the exact same product they would sell directly to BMW, but according to the rules, it doesn't have to be. An OEM supplier can claim to be the OEM supplier, no matter the part they are selling you. OEM equipment may or may not be able to be re-labeled in BMW brand packaging.

OE = Original Equipment. I believe this distinguishes a higher level of exact replacement part than OEM. OE means that the part should be exactly identicle to the one BMW is reselling in parts, or used to assemble your car. Granted, there may be a couple different OE brands (say Hella or ZKW for euro headlights, BOSCH or VALEO for alternators, etc.), but either choice could just as easily be found in real BMW packaging.

If you are still confused, just visit an actual BMW dealership parts department for a waterpump, or go to understeer.com. OK, so you might still be confused, but you have done the right thing. (and which is more important?)

Still want an OEM pump for cheap instead? BUY MINE! $25 shipped. It's either graf or geba.

[clumpymold]

Add Geba and Laso to that list.

I think you need to better understand the difference between OEM and OE. OEM does NOT always mean it is of the same quality standard of the original part.

ok, so I can't find any good internet resources right now to really explain it, so I'll try my best:

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer. An OEM is a company who builds and provides the parts to companies such as BMW or Ford or <car manufacturer> for them to either use to build your car, or put in BMW brand packaging and resell to you. That's all good and fine as long as you get the exact same product they would sell directly to BMW, but according to the rules, it doesn't have to be. An OEM supplier can claim to be the OEM supplier, no matter the part they are selling you. OEM equipment may or may not be able to be re-labeled in BMW brand packaging.

OE = Original Equipment. I believe this distinguishes a higher level of exact replacement part than OEM. OE means that the part should be exactly identicle to the one BMW is reselling in parts, or used to assemble your car. Granted, there may be a couple different OE brands (say Hella or ZKW for euro headlights, BOSCH or VALEO for alternators, etc.), but either choice could just as easily be found in real BMW packaging.

If you are still confused, just visit an actual BMW dealership parts department for a waterpump, or go to understeer.com. OK, so you might still be confused, but you have done the right thing. (and which is more important?)

Still want an OEM pump for cheap instead? BUY MINE! $25 shipped. It's either graf or geba.
Haha, thanks for that. Yeah, Chris (from understeer.com) already explained it to me (see posts above). But you clarified it as well. Thank you.

I actually already bought one from Chris. Strange thing, however, is that the shop owner said that the one I got looked cheap and crappy and that the BMW metal one I have currently (I think I have since it's stock and late build 1997) is better. :dunno

[shim]

:clap

So did you ever compare the graf pump and BMW pump side-by-side? I found the BMW pump to be well worth the price difference.

If anybody still wants to save a few bucks and go GRAF, send me a LOWBALL offer on my new one... you might be surprised how cheap I will sell it. It is garbage compared to the water pump from the dealership.
i actually ordered the composite one last night, so it should be in by the end of the week. i should probably take pics & show comparisons..... hell, i have 3 metal water pumps now b/c i didn't realize which one was the composite one (i have an OE one out of a 97 m3, a crappy graf one, & now i will have a bmw composite pump)........

[clumpymold]

i actually ordered the composite one last night, so it should be in by the end of the week. i should probably take pics & show comparisons..... hell, i have 3 metal water pumps now b/c i didn't realize which one was the composite one (i have an OE one out of a 97 m3, a crappy graf one, & now i will have a bmw composite pump)........
Oooh, yes, please take some pictures of them all. I'd love to know what the main differences are and what you think of each of them. :D

[shim]

will do

[shim]

sorry i didnt post up pics earlier, but i was lazy.......

so, i got my bmw composite water pump from eap4parts.com for about $67 and it will (hopefully) be my last water pump that i need to buy.


anyways, here are some pics of different water pumps


so basically, here are 3 different water pumps that i have purchased,
pictured from left to right is: graf WP, OE 97 M3 WP (in a Geba box), and the bmw composite WP
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1978.jpg

i got the graf brand new from WLMS_F1 (who bought it from phillyb///m3), i got the used OE pump out of a 97 m3 from giterdone, and then the composite pump from eap4parts.com
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1979.jpg

this is the Graf metal water pump that supposedly fails due to seized bearings or something like that. when twisting the pump, i did feel more resistance than the other pumps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1980.jpg

this is the original metal water pump that came out of a 97 m3. besides being dirty, the water pump looked like decent quality and the pump turned very smooth
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1981.jpg

this is the bmw composite water pump and the one that you need to buy. it looks like a high quality piece and there was no resistance at all when turning the pump. this is the last pump you will ever need to buy and i dont think anyone has had problems with their composite pump yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1982.jpg

and just to make sure you've got the authentic water pump from bmw, theres the stamp of approval on the top of the impeller
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/orijinal_poser/DSCN1984.jpg


hope that helps.......

[nightkrawler]

fwiw, i have the bimmerparts pump. installed it in the summer and have had no problems with it. after this controversy came up i called bimmerparts and asked them about the quality of the pump. they said it is a good unit and have not had any problems with people complaining about them failing. but then again, what would they say. i am rather pissed cause i though that i was getting a real bmw pump from them, it was only after i had installed it that i found out it was not. but i have had no problems with it so far, but in the summer i am gonna change it to the real bmw pump.

[clumpymold]

orijinal poser: Helps? Damn, that's insanely helpful! You rock! Those pictures and your comments are awesome! :buttrock

Thanks! :D

[shim]

orijinal poser: Helps? Damn, that's insanely helpful! You rock! Those pictures and your comments are awesome! :buttrock

Thanks! :D
i do what i can :stickoutt

[Hornswoggler]

Awesome! :buttrock


If anybody wants a new GEBA pump, make me a low-ball offer! I refuse to use it in my car.

[beatniks325]

I have a 95 m3 with 78,000 miles. I was driving home on the PA turnpike tonight and noticed that the temp gauge was headed towards the red. The car was running fine, so I continued home (4 miles away). By the time I got home, I noticed some steaming coolant coming up from behind the car. Thank God I was a block away when that happened. I took a look under the hood and saw a little splatter of coolant, but nothing crazy. I didn't hear any belts snap or see any radiator damage. Is there anything else that could have been damaged? And most importantly, how much is it going to cost me to get fixed / how long does the job take?

TIA---bob :evil2

bob, whenever you see the temp guage heading towards red you should pull the car over and turn it off and let it cool down. don't try to limp it home in overheat mode, even if it 'runs' fine. that is a sure why to fry your HeadGasket.

the coolant may have sprayed out of the expansion tank cap or it may have found some other place, like a weak part in a radiator hose to leak through too.

try and trace the dried coolant back to its source.

[switlikbob]

bob, whenever you see the temp guage heading towards red you should pull the car over and turn it off and let it cool down. don't try to limp it home in overheat mode, even if it 'runs' fine. that is a sure why to fry your HeadGasket.

the coolant may have sprayed out of the expansion tank cap or it may have found some other place, like a weak part in a radiator hose to leak through too.

try and trace the dried coolant back to its source.
I let the car cool down twice on my way back...it was only hot for a few minutes and I had the hood up when i got it home. The car is fine. I've driven it 4000+ miles since then and there are no signs of any problems...plus the stealership verified that everything was OK...

[beatniks325]

i'm just saying as a rule of thumb. there have been alot of horror stories that start something like this:


The car was running fine, so I continued home (4 miles away).

[aaronsdropzone]

The car was running fine, so I continued home (4 miles away). That's the best rule of thumb I've ever heard.

If it runs fine, keep goin'.

"It would be a total inconvenience to stop now."

[RRdawho?]

Pacific Bmw is now selling them for 112 + shipping :eek:

[JamesM3M5]

OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer
OE = Original Equipment

An OEM might make parts for some car company, not necessarily BMW, regardless the parts are typically not up to OE standards, hence why they're sold cheaper and without the BMW logo. OE are true BMW replacement parts of a known quality. Many OEM parts are fine, the water pump is NOT one of those parts. Thermostat, probabaly okay as they're not quite as critcal. The OEM pump manufactures (Geba and Graf) use poorly cast impellers that have come apart on several cars (chunks of cast iron in your cooling system are WAY worse than plastic bits) and use poor quality seals and bearings that have been known to fail in under a year. Do yourself a huge favor and do NOT install an OEM pump. Real BMW parts will come from a BMW dealer (that's where I buy the pumps I carry) and will have a BMW logo on the box, tag or part. All of the WorldPac (http://www.worldpac.com/) companies (bimmerparts, alloembmw, etc) carry only OEM parts.

This should be stickied.

We have a customer car (330ti conversion) where the cast metal impeller BROKE the water pump shaft inside the engine. We've also heard all the stories of Laso, Graf, and Geba water pumps failing either from noisy bearings or leaking seals much more quickly than BMW originals. High speeds (such as track use) will cause these failures in the cheaper pumps, while most street-only BMWs won't see a problem.

The M50/M52/S50US/S52 all use the same water pump.

As others have said, ONLY buy BMW original waterpumps. I found that out on my E30 M3.

[bimmer95]

Pacific Bmw is now selling them for 112 + shipping :eek:
They're still $85 at understeer.com :)

[4WDrift]

This should be stickied.

We have a customer car (330ti conversion) where the cast metal impeller BROKE the water pump shaft inside the engine. We've also heard all the stories of Laso, Graf, and Geba water pumps failing either from noisy bearings or leaking seals much more quickly than BMW originals. High speeds (such as track use) will cause these failures in the cheaper pumps, while most street-only BMWs won't see a problem.

The M50/M52/S50US/S52 all use the same water pump.

As others have said, ONLY buy BMW original waterpumps. I found that out on my E30 M3.

That was my pump. Luckily I caught the temp gauge spiking and blown gasket in time before head damage, got the Memphis Motorwerkes performance rebuild/Schrick kit/old AA header/etc. also. :evil2

While the metal impeller solved the problem of disintegrating plastic fins, it now has the disadvantage of being a very heavy rotating device, about a pound or two at least. Any imbalance / looseness in the shaft / fan assembly causes drastic g-forces like twisting a gyroscope, leading to failure as above. The new composite impeller is like the old lightweight plastic one which reduces the potential effects.

[switlikbob]

i'm just saying as a rule of thumb. there have been alot of horror stories that start something like this:

I made it home and there is no horror story to tell...the car runs fine...in fact, it probably runs better / has less problems than 95% of the cars belonging to the members on this board...I say that becuase I really have never had any of the problems describerd here...my water pump blew up, that's all that has happened to me...


That's the best rule of thumb I've ever heard.

If it runs fine, keep goin'.

"It would be a total inconvenience to stop now."

It was 15 degrees outside and I was with my wife...if I didn't have to sit in the freezing cold and wait for a tow, I wasn't going to...the car cooled down in 10 minutes after each time the temp guage went past 1/2 way...

:fingerboi