M60 to M62 conversion

[xatlas0]

Heya, everybody.

A FS thread (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11872882#post11872882) got me thinking about the real differences in the M60 and M62. The E38 used both engines, with little to no mounting changes, so that means the blocks are virtually identical, for mounting purposes.

The real rub comes when trying to convert the M62 (not M62TU) to OBD-I. Based on some realoem research, at a minimum, you would need:
M60 Both upper timing covers
M60 Lower timing cover
M60 belt-driven equipment (alt is different. M62's is water cooled, I think)
M60 harness
M60 throttle body / TPS
M60 harmonic balancer / pulley system
M60 DME
M60 intake manifold
M60 oil pan
M62 long block
M62 OBD-I tune

The trans would bolt up, as would the flywheel or torque converter, since the E39 6 speed is interchangeable with the E34.

The most important aspect is that it would have to be a M62, not a M62TU, and not just because of the VANOS control. The M62TU's camshafts seem to have a different connection to the cam gear (which is actually the VANOS actuator, so it makes sense) and as such, the cams themselves are incompatable with a non-VANOS setup. That said, I don't see why you couldn't use a M62B46TU bottom end with regular M62 heads. That would, according to published specs, give ~360 reliable, tune-able hp. One could also theoretically use the S62 long block, but considering how ruddy expensive those engines are, (practically costs 5$ to say S62 in a junkyard) and how the majority of the gained hp is in the heads and induction system instead of the displacement, I'd venture that such a swap would have a very low cost/benefit ratio.

Since I don't have a M62 and a M60 just laying around, this is currently all theoretical. After all, can't say it works until somebody does the dang thing, right?

What else do you guys think would be required?

[xatlas0]

I have no input other than damn, I wonder who is going to do it. Antrieb?

I forget, is he in TO or did he get the banstick?

[BigM62]

If you want to convert a M60 to a M62 use the 1996 M62.It already is OBD1.Then you can swap alot fewer parts.

[Binjammin]

I don't think you'd have much of a problem swapping in an obdII setup, converting all the parts over you listed which could be sourced from what, any m60b30?

[xatlas0]

If you want to convert a M60 to a M62 use the 1996 M62.It already is OBD1.Then you can swap alot fewer parts.

Didn't all cars have to become OBD-II by model year 1996? Based on realoem (which I'll admit, can be wrong) cars produced up to 12/95 were still using the M60, not the M62. Production of the E38 apparently stopped for January, as the February 96 cars started using the M62. Being that they are MY 96 cars, that would mean they were OBD-II.

EDIT:
Here is the OBD port from a 2/96 740:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=GF83&mospid=47528&btnr=61_1461&hg=61&fg=15

Looks like an OBD-II port. Of course, realoem could be wrong. Hm, it looks like the same parts were used earlier too, as well, making this result inconclusive. I guess we could ask one of the 96 740 guys if their car is OBD-I or OBD-II.


I don't think you'd have much of a problem swapping in an obdII setup, converting all the parts over you listed which could be sourced from what, any m60b30?

I don't see why not, except for the MAF and throttle body. You'd probably have to use either a M60B40 MAF or a M62 MAF. I have no idea which one you'd have to use. Had I to hazard a guess, I'd say the M60B40 MAF because the tables would already be in the old chip, making tuning much easier. The B30 and B40 MAFs have different part numbers, so they may be calibrated differently. The throttle bodies also have different PNs, so the B30 one may be smaller. The TPS is the same between them, though.

[kalevera]

Didn't all cars have to become OBD-II by model year 1996? Based on realoem (which I'll admit, can be wrong) cars produced up to 12/95 were still using the M60, not the M62. Production of the E38 apparently stopped for January, as the February 96 cars started using the M62. Being that they are MY 96 cars, that would mean they were OBD-II.


Yes, all '96 cars are OBDII. There isn't an OBDI M62.






I don't see why not, except for the MAF and throttle body. You'd probably have to use either a M60B40 MAF or a M62 MAF. I have no idea which one you'd have to use.

The M60B40 and M62 use the same MAF.





M60 belt-driven equipment (alt is different. M62's is water cooled, I think)



The water cooled alternator was used on M62tu engines, the earlier ones use a regular alt.

[xatlas0]

Yes, all '96 cars are OBDII. There isn't an OBDI M62.

Too bad, that would have made the swap much easier.



The M60B40 and M62 use the same MAF.

Huh, they do, based on realoem. That's pretty suprising. I figured they would have been different since the DMEs were different. Makes things much easier, as far as the MAF goes.



The water cooled alternator was used on M62tu engines, the earlier ones use a regular alt.

It's kind of strange, it looks like they downgraded from a 140 to a 120 amp alt about halfway through the M62's run. Perhaps the alt got too hot? Would you be able to use the M60 timing cover with the M62 alt? It looks like the M62 lower timing cover is shaped to fit the alt, and you need to use the M60 lower timing cover for the crankshaft position sensor.

[Rebel635csi]

my only question is...WHY?!

its not that simple of a job, and if u're gonna butched a m60b30 or b40 to do it it makes no practical sense....for an increase of .4L over the b40??

and MAFs dont necesarrily have to change from model no to model no. all it is is a measuring tool...the ecu then takes the measurements and does its magic with it....

in fact m60b30 MAF is the same part no as the non vanos m50.....ask me how i know? I'm running it right now...

[xatlas0]

my only question is...WHY?!

its not that simple of a job, and if u're gonna butched a m60b30 or b40 to do it it makes no practical sense....for an increase of .4L over the b40??

and MAFs dont necesarrily have to change from model no to model no. all it is is a measuring tool...the ecu then takes the measurements and does its magic with it....

in fact m60b30 MAF is the same part no as the non vanos m50.....ask me how i know? I'm running it right now...

If you are upgrading a B30, why not do it? You'll be doing almost all the heavy lifting already, and the B30 will merely languish in the garage or junkyard. Costs are about the same for the B40 and the M62B44. Get more power for your time, as it were. Based on some member's E39 540 dynos vs E34 540 dynos, you'll pick up a good 30-40 rwhp, which is more than you'd get from every bolt-on available combined. Also, it is a bit easier to find a M62 than a M60, since the M62 was used longer, (and in more cars) and you will never have to worry about buying a Nikasil block on accident.

As for the B30 vs B40 MAF, I recall that I looked up the PNs, and they were different. This would suggest they were calibrated differently, likely at the MAF itself, as if it was all in the DME, why would BMW arbitrarily make a new PN for the exact same part? I suppose it would all wash out in tuning, though.

[Jcbe34]

I don't know, healthy m60's dyno ~255 to the wheels.. some have done it stock, mine did with a chip. But the highest I've seen a stock m62 dyno is the high 260's... Seems like a TON of work with minimal results. Hell, for that kind of money you could easily do a DIY S/C m60 as long as you had someone that could tune it.

[xatlas0]

I don't know, healthy m60's dyno ~255 to the wheels.. some have done it stock, mine did with a chip. But the highest I've seen a stock m62 dyno is the high 260's... Seems like a TON of work with minimal results. Hell, for that kind of money you could easily do a DIY S/C m60 as long as you had someone that could tune it.

I'll concur that the M60s seem to dyno about 250. The early M62s, though, I've seen a few more dynos around 280, completely stock. The later ones were more around 270. I haven't seen a dyno for a B46.

Examples:
97 540A:
RWHP 281.4
RWTQ 301.4
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=822033&highlight=540+dyno

2001 540:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845074&highlight=540+dyno

97 540:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=766366&highlight=540+dyno
294/284

98 540/6
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607866&highlight=540+dyno
269/292

E34niciation got something like 275 with full bolt-ons for his (M60) before it grenaded. Leo540 got something similar. (M60) Granted, these are all different dynos, different weather, but it does show a trend that the early 540 motors were significantly stronger than both the later M62s and the M60B40.

I'm not suggesting changing from a B40 to a M62, that would be crazy, unless you were going to have to rebuild the engine anyway. If you are changing a B30, though, it looks like it would be worth a little extra effort.

[Jcbe34]

I'll concur that the M60s seem to dyno about 250. The early M62s, though, I've seen a few more dynos around 280, completely stock. The later ones were more around 270. I haven't seen a dyno for a B46.

Examples:
97 540A:
RWHP 281.4
RWTQ 301.4
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=822033&highlight=540+dyno

2001 540:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845074&highlight=540+dyno

97 540:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=766366&highlight=540+dyno
294/284

98 540/6
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607866&highlight=540+dyno
269/292

E34niciation got something like 275 with full bolt-ons for his (M60) before it grenaded. Leo540 got something similar. (M60) Granted, these are all different dynos, different weather, but it does show a trend that the early 540 motors were significantly stronger than both the later M62s and the M60B40.

I'm not suggesting changing from a B40 to a M62, that would be crazy, unless you were going to have to rebuild the engine anyway. If you are changing a B30, though, it looks like it would be worth a little extra effort.

I got you, I'll agree with that. If the motors already out it doesn't seem all too difficult.. Had no idea m62's were dynoing that high stock, thats crazy! I knew about leo540's 277 whp dyno with bolt ons.. I'd like to get my car putting out that kind of power. The boost bug is starting to bite though, I'm about to start looking into that.

[xatlas0]

I got you, I'll agree with that. If the motors already out it doesn't seem all too difficult.. Had no idea m62's were dynoing that high stock, thats crazy! I knew about leo540's 277 whp dyno with bolt ons.. I'd like to get my car putting out that kind of power. The boost bug is starting to bite though, I'm about to start looking into that.

Now, imagine how a 4.6 must be. In this discussion, you'd have to swap the M62 heads onto the M62TUB46 anyway, so you may as well P&P them, perhaps put some better valves in there, perhaps upgraded cams... then you are talking some better power, more than likely. Based on the M62 dynos, probably in the 300+ rwhp range with 320+ rwtq. That's E46 M3 / E34 M5 eating territory right there, especially with the right diff.

Of course, making such a beast would not be cheap, by any stretch of the imagination. So, you would probably be able to do the M62B44 swap for let's say 2-4k. (including new gaskets and whatnot, snag the engine for 1-2k) To do the B46 swap, though, probably more like 8k. (3-4 for block, 1k for heads, 2k for head work, 1k for gaskets and everything else) The B46 block would be harder to come by since it was only used on the X5 4.6is, which was only made for 3 years.

I'm not sure the 4.8's N62 block would fit. The blocks look totally different, so I doubt it. That would make the B46 the strongest normal M62.

[ringle]

Interesting. My car has an M62 block all else M60. :shifty

[xatlas0]

Interesting. My car has an M62 block all else M60. :shifty

Really now? Do tell. What all did the shop have to do? Custom tune?

[ringle]

I purchased the car with this setup already installed. The original block needed to be replace anyway so the PO went with a 4.4L block from a 2001 540i. The tune was by Mark D (or at least this is what I was told). I'm not sure if he just remapped, or if it has an upgraded (performance) chip. The motor pulls strong, better than many 3.6L M5's that I've test driven. Seems to have tremendous torque and probably in the range of 300 to 320 HP. I haven't dyno'ed it, but I will use the G-Force I have when the weather gets better to get a more accurate idea of HP output. (Supposedly the G-Force is accurate within 5 HP?) Here is some of what the PO said about the install.


[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']There were a couple of reasons we deVANOSed the 4.4L.
Firstly we wanted to keep the 4.0L electronics so that
the engine would integrate with the cruise control and
other electronics in the car. Trying to wire up and
kludge in 4.4L OBD II electronics into an OBD I car
seemed like a very labour intensive process.

The 4.4L motor we had also used a fly by wire
throttle. That would have meant we needed to integrate
the throttle potentiometer at the gas pedal. Another
crazy adventure in futility.

We learned that the cams in both motors would fit
without modification to the head. All we needed to do
was change over the duplex chain to a simplex chain
and remove the VANOS gear. In actuality the VANOS does
not build more power in the 4.4L, but it makes the car
more fuel efficient and broadens out the torque curve.
Peak hp remains pretty much static. Furthermore, the
OBD II gear constricts the power output for less
emissions at the tail pipe. You also loose hp by
spinning all the VANOS hydraulics and gears. By
reverting back to the non-VANOS control gears and cam
we have freed up more power and are using a less
restrictive OBD I set up. As far as the computer and
rest of the car goes, it sees the same 4.0L engine in
there. We just reprogrammed the ECU to take advantage
of the slightly larger engine capacity and squeeked
out a few more hp.


Also note that at one point the replacement engine was noted as an S62, I believe this was meant to be M62.

[xatlas0]

Ok, he took the cams from the M60 and used them in the M62TU to overcome the VANOS issue. I wasn't sure if the cams would fit, but it would appear they do.

Sounds like the car is a hoot and a half. If you got a tune from MarkD, then it was certainly the performance tune as well. If you ever do get around to putting it on a dyno, please do share.

[xatlas0]

So a M62 non-vanos cam will fit a M60?

E39:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE53&mospid=47588&btnr=11_1532&hg=11&fg=25

E34:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HE53&mospid=47410&btnr=11_1242&hg=11&fg=25

Certainly looks that way. Question is, why would you want to?

Interestingly enough, it looks like the E34 uses double valve springs while the E39 does not. How odd.

[Analog]

Question is, why would you want to?

Aren't aftermarket cams avaiable for the M62?


Interestingly enough, it looks like the E34 uses double valve springs while the E39 does not. How odd.

Agreed. In fact my dad and I were talking about this earlier this morning.

[xatlas0]

Aren't aftermarket cams avaiable for the M62?


Never seen a set. Even if there are, I can bet some cash they are no less than 1k, or way too close for comfort. I don't see why you couldn't do a regrind, of course, since the car will have a custom tune anyway.

[xatlas0]

The converted M62s would actually be a little stronger, I think, that stock M62s because of the M60 intake manifold. It apparently flows a bit better than the M62 one, as the Dinan intake manifodl upgrade for the M62 is to swap in the M60 manifold.

Also, I wonder if the heads are interchangeable? If the cams can be switched, then it would suggest the measurements are almost exactly the same in many respects. Plus, if you did switch it over, you would have the advantage of dual valve springs, something the M62 needs badly. I used to drive a 99 540i/6 on occasion (UUC SSK, Flywheel, clutch, sweet machine) but at idle and when cold, the heads would make an incredible racket. The M60 doesn't do this, even though the E34 had triple the mileage of the E39. Every E39 540 I have ever heard has the same sound, and it is not a sound that inspires confidence.

[E34nication]

Never seen a set. Even if there are, I can bet some cash they are no less than 1k, or way too close for comfort. I don't see why you couldn't do a regrind, of course, since the car will have a custom tune anyway.


I have never run across anyone who has them but Schrick used to list a set of cams for the m60. IIRC they were in the $3k neighborhood though... Little steep.

Not sure how much these are... found this on the catcams website:

ENGINE information

1303504
►
INTAKE EXHAUST


clearance [cl] 0.00mm 0.00mm
duration [0.1mm+cl] 258° 258°
duration [1.0mm+cl] 224° 224°
valve lift [cl=0] 10.00mm 10.00mm REQUIRED PARTS
cam lift - -
peak angle 112° 112° followers: O.E.M.
timing [1.0mm+cl] 0/44° 44/ 0° retainers: O.E.M.
lift at TDC [cl=0] 1.00mm 1.00mm springs: O.E.M.


information & important remarks:


► ! [link] Please carefully read the general information on CATCAMS products

[E34nication]

Just looked them up on a swedish site and did a currency conversion and the price of the cams came out to $2586.09... bit rich for my blood.

[xatlas0]

I think Korman was selling them too, with some "odd" dyno charts.

http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/e34engv.htm

Of course, their website was updated 10 years ago so...

[E34nication]

I think Korman was selling them too, with some "odd" dyno charts.

http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/e34engv.htm

Of course, their website was updated 10 years ago so...

I think Korman is who I called about 3-4 years back. I was told they were discontinued, none in stock, and the price on them was ~3k iirc.

[BigM62]

Yes, all '96 cars are OBDII. There isn't an OBDI M62.





The M60B40 and M62 use the same MAF.





The water cooled alternator was used on M62tu engines, the earlier ones use a regular alt.

LOL. I have one in my car.

[xatlas0]

LOL. I have one in my car.

Have one of what? He mentioned three things. If your car is OBD-I, then it is the only OBD-I MY 96 car I have ever heard of, from any manufacturer.

[BigM62]

Have one of what? He mentioned three things. If your car is OBD-I, then it is the only OBD-I MY 96 car I have ever heard of, from any manufacturer.

Correction:from any tuner.The M62 engine came brand spanking new from a BMW dealership.It is from a 1996 740i,which is OBD1.Had to weld on a crank position sensor on the TB intake housing.Same harness,same oil pan,same everything(almost).I had a local tuner burn me a new chip.

[xatlas0]

Correction:from any tuner.The M62 engine came brand spanking new from a BMW dealership.It is from a 1996 740i,which is OBD1.Had to weld on a crank position sensor on the TB intake housing.Same harness,same oil pan,same everything(almost).I had a local tuner burn me a new chip.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought the engine was new? The fact that you had to weld on a crank position sensor means that they used your old harness, or another OBD-I harness, which was for a M60, meaning they, in effect, converted the M62 to OBD-I using your existing hardware, which is exactly what this whole thread is about.

See, this is how the M62 normally gets the crank position, off the flex plate's starter ring or flywheel:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=GF83&mospid=47528&btnr=24_0795&hg=24&fg=10

The M60 gets the crank position off the harmonic balancer, like so:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=GF63&mospid=47526&btnr=11_1589&hg=11&fg=10

which is why they had to weld the thing on there. The M62 also runs on an entirely different DME, which has a different OBD port output signal pattern hard-coded into it. THe OBD-I and OBD-II signals are different.

If I misunderstood you, please explain. It sounds like you have an interesting car.

[BigM62]

Well,there is a M62 sitting right there in my engine bay.My old turner used my old M60 harness.I even had a new chip OBD1 burned last month.Took out the Unichip.And the motor was/is new.

[ringle]

Well,there is a M62 sitting right there in my engine bay

Would you be able to post some pics please. I'm also interested in your SC set up, so pics of that as well if you don't mind.

[xatlas0]

Well,there is a M62 sitting right there in my engine bay.My old turner used my old M60 harness.I even had a new chip OBD1 burned last month.Took out the Unichip.And the motor was/is new.

If you use an OBD-I harness, that also means you have an OBD-I harmonic balancer, DME, and hopefully intake manifold.

Do you have a throttle cable or is it drive by wire?

So your car has had done to it what we are talking about. How do you like it?

[5271990]

Can you use the M60B46 crankshaft in the E34 M60 to increase the displacement?

Maybe the M60b46 has a different bore, I don't know.

[BigM62]

If you use an OBD-I harness, that also means you have an OBD-I harmonic balancer, DME, and hopefully intake manifold.

Do you have a throttle cable or is it drive by wire?

So your car has had done to it what we are talking about. How do you like it?

Throttle cabe and I believe M62 intake manifold as I have M62 heads.Tried the M60 heads first on M62 block,but would not work.Plus,M62 heads flow better.

[xatlas0]

Throttle cabe and I believe M62 intake manifold as I have M62 heads.Tried the M60 heads first on M62 block,but would not work.Plus,M62 heads flow better.

Hm, so M60 heads don't work? Ok, that was a bit of a long shot, but it would make sense.

The M60 manifold should fit, though, as the Dinan M62 manifold is the M60 manifold, based on what I have been told.

So how does the car run? Scalded dog, or bat-out-of-hell?

5271990-
This is helpful, but not quite your specific question:http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m62.htm

Here's some info from a review of the 4.6is:


BMW considered using the M5's 394-hp S62 V-8 but didn't because of its peaky torque delivery and the fact that no stock slushboxes will handle the power. Hence, no M badge, either. Instead, a new 4.6-liter V-8 was engineered with some inspiration from Alpina, BMW's factory-anointed aftermarket tuner in Buchloe, Germany.

Like Alpina's own 4.6-liter B10, the factory's DOHC 32-valve variant is a riff on the current M62 V-8 found in the X5 4.4i and 540i. The crucial difference is that each pot now displaces 577cc instead of 550cc, due to 1.0mm more of bore and 2.3mm more of stroke. A compression-ratio increase of 0.3 to 10.5:1, a looser exhaust trimmed with chrome hoods, and lumpier intake cams backed up by a more aggressive mapping of the engine's cam-phasing mechanism account for a rating of 340 horsepower, 50 more than in the 2002 X5 4.4i, which went to 290 from 282 horsepower last year.
The crankshaft also turns another 26 pound-feet, for 350 total. That and the lower 3.91 rear-axle ratio help the 4.6is lop almost a half-second off the 0-to-60-mph sprint of the 282-hp 4.4i. Expect a gluttonous 14 mpg.

Check this out!
http://www.noellemotors.de/5_2l_engine_basis_BMW_M62_B44.305.0.html
I wonder how much it is.

[BigM62]

I checked,you are right.It has M60 intake.Oh,and It is a bat out of hell.Especially with the supercharger.Around 5k rpms it hits like a freight train.Thanks for the Noelle Motors tip.That looks badass.

[xatlas0]

Wait a second. 4.4L...had a unichip...SC... is this Jimmy2z's old car?

EDIT: Nevermind, I looked through the old threads where everybody thought it was Jimmy's car.

So you actually have what this thread is about. Are there any issues I missed, or other complications that arose which I neglected to count on?

[BigM62]

Wait a second. 4.4L...had a unichip...SC... is this Jimmy2z's old car?

EDIT: Nevermind, I looked through the old threads where everybody thought it was Jimmy's car.

So you actually have what this thread is about. Are there any issues I missed, or other complications that arose which I neglected to count on?

Well there are the complications regarding speeding.Got puled over by local CHP(I was going 130mph at a short burst) .He did not know how fast I was going as I past him.Got off with a warning.:redspot

[5271990]

The crucial difference is that each pot now displaces 577cc instead of 550cc, due to 1.0mm more of bore and 2.3mm more of stroke. A compression-ratio increase of 0.3 to 10.5:1, a looser exhaust trimmed with chrome hoods, and lumpier intake cams backed up by a more aggressive mapping of the engine's cam-phasing mechanism account for a rating of 340 horsepower, 50 more than in the 2002 X5 4.4i, which went to 290 from 282 horsepower last year.

So basically a bigger stroke, bigger bore, more aggressive cam, increased compression, different crank and more aggressive tuning will get you 60bhp conservatively :D doh.

Hartge seem to do a similar build to the 4.6is
http://www.birds.uk.com/1-PDFs/E3409E34102.pdf

Xatlas0, can you do a definitive list of what parts are used from which engine bays ( you understand this more than me) to make the more powerful hybrid?

[xatlas0]

So basically a bigger stroke, bigger bore, more aggressive cam, increased compression, different crank and more aggressive tuning will get you 60bhp conservatively :D doh.

Hartge seem to do a similar build to the 4.6is
http://www.birds.uk.com/1-PDFs/E3409E34102.pdf

Xatlas0, can you do a definitive list of what parts are used from which engine bays ( you understand this more than me) to make the more powerful hybrid?

The Alpina B something-or-other (the only Alpina thing I care about is that we can't get them here) used a 4.6L M62 in an E36. Apparently, BMW did a special block cast for them. I imagine they just took it and used it in the X5 to recoup some of the R&D losses.

As for the power, yep, building a stroker gets you some additional hp. Big shocker there, right? As for what goes where, it seems like my original list is turning out to be pretty accurate. M62 (not M62TU) long block, M60 upper and lower timing covers, M60 cam gears, M60 intake, M60 throttle body, M60 harness, and M60 DME so you can get a correct tune.

[BigM62]

The Alpina B something-or-other (the only Alpina thing I care about is that we can't get them here) used a 4.6L M62 in an E36. Apparently, BMW did a special block cast for them. I imagine they just took it and used it in the X5 to recoup some of the R&D losses.

As for the power, yep, building a stroker gets you some additional hp. Big shocker there, right? As for what goes where, it seems like my original list is turning out to be pretty accurate. M62 (not M62TU) long block, M60 upper and lower timing covers, M60 cam gears, M60 intake, M60 throttle body, M60 harness, and M60 DME so you can get a correct tune.
And several tuners can burn a chip(Mark D. and Javad at 034 Motorsport).Also,4.4 gets you more TORQUE(which in the USA is way more usable)

[5271990]

As for the power, yep, building a stroker gets you some additional hp. Big shocker there, right? As for what goes where, it seems like my original list is turning out to be pretty accurate. M62 (not M62TU) long block, M60 upper and lower timing covers, M60 cam gears, M60 intake, M60 throttle body, M60 harness, and M60 DME so you can get a correct tune.

So let me get this right.

M62 long block, pistons, conrods, crank and everything else from an M60?

(I'm guessing you use M62 pistons, conrods and crank to get the extra displacement)

[xatlas0]

So let me get this right.

M62 long block, pistons, conrods, crank and everything else from an M60?

(I'm guessing you use M62 pistons, conrods and crank to get the extra displacement)

A long block includes pistons and whatnot. This whole setup is actually very similar to what I had to do with my 3.0CS when I converted it to a M30B35 with Motronic 1.3. I had to switch timing covers, intakes , all that, but leave the actual long block (block, crank, pistins, rods, head, cam, valves, oil pump, oil pan) alone.

I'm not 100% sure on this list myself. I can't be until I actually do it. However, it seems like it is correct based on a few other members that actually have this setup.

[E34nication]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-M62-V8-Engine-Modified-to-fit-M60-Motor-OBDI-Cars_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ015QQite mZ250211395136QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[xkaharianx]

It seems like alot of work. you might as well just swap a whole prevanos 4.4 liter engine in and be done with it. anyway if you guys can get it to work more power to you, plus a faster car.

I was thinking about how i can increase engine power too without going too outrageous. then i thought about the alpina b10 4.0 engine because they used the m60b40 engine. so just wondered how they got power up to 315hp. and i found this:

http://www.m5board.com/alpina/e34.html (go to b10 4.0 section)

basically, all that they did was swap the pistons for higher compression and a new tune for it. This seems like a relatively basic mod for an extra power boost from 289-315 crank hp. thats 26 crankhp difference not bad huh?

[xkaharianx]

What no good? dont like my idea? can something like this be done?

[xatlas0]

Well, sure it can be done, but you are talking at least 2k in parts alone, to say nothing of the tune. (Pistons + Gaskets + Bearings, tune is another 500+$) Also, you are talking about a perhaps +10 rwhp, so ~260, whereas I'm talking more about 280+. The cost would be approximately the same, given the going rate on a M62.

Plus, given the vagaries of US gasonline, going much higher than 10:1 could cause the knock sensors to kick in pretty often.

[xatlas0]

Almost forgot, based on talking with an excellent mechanic, he suggested a few more items that seem to be required:

crank chain sprocket: The M60 uses a dual row timing chain, while the M62 uses a single row. So, to use the M60 toming covers, you have to pretty much convert the timing chain to the M60 chain, so M60 guides, M60 V idler gear, cam gears, the works.

I also noticed the M62 only has a guide in place to make the chain "V", while the M60 has an actual idler gear setup. No wonder the M60 is quieter at idle and doesn't sound like a bag of nails going through a drier at startup like the M62.

[MaximilianVO]

Almost forgot, based on talking with an excellent mechanic, he suggested a few more items that seem to be required:

crank chain sprocket: The M60 uses a dual row timing chain, while the M62 uses a single row. So, to use the M60 toming covers, you have to pretty much convert the timing chain to the M60 chain, so M60 guides, M60 V idler gear, cam gears, the works.

I also noticed the M62 only has a guide in place to make the chain "V", while the M60 has an actual idler gear setup. No wonder the M60 is quieter at idle and doesn't sound like a bag of nails going through a drier at startup like the M62.

I was waiting for you to bring that up. This is true an was done in our case on the engine you originally referenced in the first thread on this subject. Timing chains were swapped. A main reason was there is a boss on the cam sprocket on the passenger side of the engine. This boss is read by the M60's original OBDI cam sensor. IIRC we had to use the upper Timing covers from the M60 on the M62. Doing so caused the sensor to mount to deeply and bottom out on the boss on the cam sprocket, so a small spacer was machined to give us the neccessary clearance for it to rotate without hitting the sensor. Use of the cooling channel on the back of the engine along with the pipes between it and the waterpump needed to be M60 as well. This should be everything on your thread now to allow someone to perform the modification without to much static. Hope this helps. Kudos xatlas0 on an informative thread. Makes me remember old times with the ambitious threads ;). PM me if you have any other questions.

[m60b30530i]

wow i have a M60B30 :)

is it almost better for me to just by a e39 540i

[ZiMMie]

So Yes, i bought the motor.
Ive got a problem that maybe someone can help me out with.

the motor has EWS, and the car its going to doesnt have EWS. is that any way to delete it?

[MaximilianVO]

I think Mark Desylva can handle that.

[Rebel635csi]

^^

U gotta run a pre EWS Ecu, ecu code 404...i had the same fear as i bought a 95 parts car for my swap but it turned out that the ECU was 94 404 with no EWS, so yay for me!

[ZiMMie]

thanx to jim, hopefully by then the Shark EDit will be up and running.

[Dominic49]

word so now there ar 2 m62 e30s being prepped for install? care toshare notes as we go along ZiMMie?

[glwillia]

Have one of what? He mentioned three things. If your car is OBD-I, then it is the only OBD-I MY 96 car I have ever heard of, from any manufacturer.

Wasn't the OBD-I/OBD-II issue the reason there wasn't a MY96 5-series sold in the US?

[xatlas0]

Wasn't the OBD-I/OBD-II issue the reason there wasn't a MY96 5-series sold in the US?

I'd say it has more to do with them changing body styles. E39s were already in production in 1995, but perhaps since they were still making E34s, the factory couldn't be re-tooled fast enough for a 96 MY.

[redbull325is]

Great thread!
So if I was to source an m62b44 to replace my m60b30, could i run my DME with a new chip? I guess I'd also need the b40 MAF, right?

Julien

[clevertd]

Great thread!
So if I was to source an m62b44 to replace my m60b30, could i run my DME with a new chip? I guess I'd also need the b40 MAF, right?

Julien

Do you have a 404 ecu? You'd need the larger MAF. If you happen to get one with the M62, you can just use that one as they are the same (discussed earlier in this thread).

[xatlas0]

Great thread!
So if I was to source an m62b44 to replace my m60b30, could i run my DME with a new chip? I guess I'd also need the b40 MAF, right?

Julien

Indeed, that is one of the main points of the thread, as that way, you wouldn't need to re-wire the car.

[NikosX]

I want a 4.6 in my 540. The question is...where do you find a wrecked 4.6is?

[xatlas0]

I want a 4.6 in my 540. The question is...where do you find a wrecked 4.6is?

The 4.6 is a bit different from the others, as it has both unique heads and was never offered sans VANOS. As such, I'm not sure if the non-VANOS cams would fit. Still, it would likely be cheaper than re-sleeving a bored-out M62B44.

In terms of physically finding the engine, it would take a very large BMW specific wrecker (I'm looking at you, BavEngine) or be very luck and snatch up a 4.6 X5 before anybody else. Worst case, I suppose you could order a crate motor from BMW, but then you still have to do all the OBD-I modifications.

EDIT- Now that I think about it, the preferred source would actually be an Alpina B8 4.6 (assuming I got the Alpina designation correct) as it is already set up for OBD-I and non-VANOS. Of course, you'd likely have an easier time coming up with the Unified Field Theory for 4 dimensions on the back of a napkin than finding one of those.

[clevertd]

M62B46 and not the N62, right?

[xatlas0]

M62B46 and not the N62, right?

I don't think they made a N62B46. But, yes, all of this is only for the M6X engines, not the NXX engines, as those incorporate valvetronic in the heads, something the original DME can't do.

[clevertd]

Yeah, just realized that they made a B44 and B48. It's been a long day of summer school:stickoutt

How accurate are the visual representations of cylinder heads on realoem/bmwfans.info?

http://bmwfans.info/original/E39/Lim/540i-M62/USA/L/M/1997/01/mg-11/ill-11_2251/
http://bmwfans.info/original/E53/SAV/X5%204.6is-M62/USA/L/N/2001/01/mg-11/ill-11_2251/

[5mall5nail5]

Illustrations on RealOEM are not to be used seriously

[xatlas0]

Yeah, just realized that they made a B44 and B48. It's been a long day of summer school:stickoutt

How accurate are the visual representations of cylinder heads on realoem/bmwfans.info?

http://bmwfans.info/original/E39/Lim/540i-M62/USA/L/M/1997/01/mg-11/ill-11_2251/
http://bmwfans.info/original/E53/SAV/X5%204.6is-M62/USA/L/N/2001/01/mg-11/ill-11_2251/

Without dimensions, it may as well be a hand-sketch. Certainly not accurate enough to try and see if things fit together.

[clevertd]

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=FB93&mospid=47748&btnr=11_2266&hg=11&fg=25

M62B46 cam

now where did I put that napkin...

[xatlas0]

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=FB93&mospid=47748&btnr=11_2266&hg=11&fg=25

M62B46 cam

now where did I put that napkin...

Right, and as you can see, the end is designed for VANOS. I suppose you could machine an end cap to mate with the M60 cam sprockets, but even then, you are hoping the heads aren't made to only accept VANOS.

[5mall5nail5]

You can lop the vanos end off - people do it all the time for S54 delete.

[BigM62]

M60 and M62 share same MAF part number.Ask me how I know.;)

[5mall5nail5]

Since you know everything, where is TheDogger with my damned $115 from 2+ years ago

[clevertd]

M60 and M62 share same MAF part number.Ask me how I know.;)

You read post 7 in this thread? ;)

[BigM62]

Since you know everything, where is TheDogger with my damned $115 from 2+ years ago

LOL.He moved to Idaho and disappeard.He did my stereo system and I had to have it done all over again.

[BigM62]

You read post 7 in this thread? ;)

Missed that since it was so long ago.:)

[Dominic49]

any new iders? need help with m62 + e30 .... basically what wires do i need to keep?

[xatlas0]

any new iders? need help with m62 + e30 .... basically what wires do i need to keep?

The main purpose of this thread was the conversion of a M60B30 to a M62BXX. You want to put a M62 into an E30, which will make for a fun car.

If you don't want to try and keep the OBD-II system, which is currently not tuneable by individuals, and has lots of things you don't want or need, (EWS, air systems, etc.) then you need to convert it to an alternate management system.

I'm not sure, but I think MegaSquirt could run this engine, as it doesn't have any adjustable valve timing. It is essentially a revised M60. If that is the case, meaning you could run it, I'd probably go with that over an OBD-I conversion. It would likely be less work, and you could tune it yourself.

To do what is described in this thread, you'd pretty much need to source all the parts individually, which would get pricey, fast. Alternatively, I'm pretty sure Bobby Thrash would have all you need up at Strictly German, he'd probably sell it pretty cheap. (It's in Brasleton, up 85 by Road Atlanta)

The main reason this thread presents a viable option is because anybody doing the B30-B40 conversion is pretty much doing the same work for less power, and the B30 owner already has the majority of the conversion parts. You don't have that, but you do have the engine.

[jessejames]

The main purpose of this thread was the conversion of a M60B30 to a M62BXX. You want to put a M62 into an E30, which will make for a fun car.

I thought, given the thread title "M62 to M60 conversion," he was looking to do the opposite... :confused

[xatlas0]

I thought, given the thread title "M62 to M60 conversion," he was looking to do the opposite... :confused

Egads! :eek: Whoops.

EDIT: fixed.

[BigM62]

I thought, given the thread title "M62 to M60 conversion," he was looking to do the opposite... :confused

Why in the world would someone want to go through all that(M62 to M60) work to go down in power/torque?:confused

[Dominic49]

well i do have the 540 bodyharness with ews in a box in my garage... so maybe i'll just put it in the passenger foot well as ballast and plug in what the ecu needs and all the grounds to the body :\


well back to going over the harness with a fine tooth comb


http://www.stonedrock.com/m62/01.jpg

[xatlas0]

well i do have the 540 bodyharness with ews in a box in my garage... so maybe i'll just put it in the passenger foot well as ballast and plug in what the ecu needs and all the grounds to the body :


well back to going over the harness with a fine tooth comb


http://www.stonedrock.com/m62/01.jpg

Ehhh... in your case, I'd really try MegaSquirt, or another standalone. Simply because, if you are going through all the trouble of largely making your own harness and re-wiring the car, why not have an ECU you can actually control and tune by yourself?

[clevertd]

mmm colored spaghetti!

[Dominic49]

Ehhh... in your case, I'd really try MegaSquirt, or another standalone. Simply because, if you are going through all the trouble of largely making your own harness and re-wiring the car, why not have an ECU you can actually control and tune by yourself?



already did megasquirt... hated it.... probbly try VEMS if anything

[xatlas0]

already did megasquirt... hated it.... probbly try VEMS if anything

Based on what I understand, VEMS is the same, if not older, hardware and just has a slightly better interface.

You may want to try AEM or TEC3, if you don't want to convert it to OBD-I.

Or, like you said, you can finangle it so it will run. Given the miles of wires in an E39, and the host of I/O requirements, I don't know how long that will take.

[Dominic49]

either way it should be fun

[Dominic49]

can i use a 530i ecu?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ADBS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=370055860578

[moroza]

Hm...so the biggest issue seems to be the electronics. Huge surprise there, BMW. For a standalone ECU (MS, whatever else), it seems like it won't matter, but here's a question - you can convert an M62 to run on the OBD1 electronics of a 95 M60 car (presumably B30 is fine?), but what about the OBD-0 of a 94 car?

And what about the M50 cars? Will they play at all, or is an M60 DME preferred enough to warrant the effort of finding and swapping one (which sounds like the same effort spent on standalone, or even OBD-2 conversion)?

[clevertd]

Look up Antrieb's old thread where he swapped in a B40. Not sure what you're asking about the M50.

[xatlas0]

Hm...so the biggest issue seems to be the electronics. Huge surprise there, BMW. For a standalone ECU (MS, whatever else), it seems like it won't matter, but here's a question - you can convert an M62 to run on the OBD1 electronics of a 95 M60 car (presumably B30 is fine?), but what about the OBD-0 of a 94 car?

And what about the M50 cars? Will they play at all, or is an M60 DME preferred enough to warrant the effort of finding and swapping one (which sounds like the same effort spent on standalone, or even OBD-2 conversion)?

The M50 cars have a different Motronic version than the M60 cars, so no, they are not swappable. As for if you can just pop a 540 DME into a 525 and have all the gauges work, I am uncertain. I don't know enough about the signals used for the chassis, and if they were standardized throughout the chassis run.

You should be able to use any M60 DME, but I am not sure if the 7 had a specific DME, I kinda doubt it. OBD-I was in place from (I think) 1988 to 1995.

Realistically, if you are trying to swap in a M62 into an E34, it only really makes sense to do it to a 530 of some kind, as with a 540 it doesn't make sense unless the engine is trashed, and with the M5X and M30 cars, the engine bays are so different that you end up pretty much replacing the front clip to shoehorn the engine in there.

I saw that you were pondering an uber-touring, and I'd say go with a 530it, as that should pose the fewest hassles, if you are sticking with the V8. In terms of an S38 or a M62, it really depends on how far you want to take it. If you want to end up with a 1000 hp turbo screaming machine, the S38 would be the way to go. If you want something fairly cheap to run and has plenty of low-end torque, I'd go with the M6X.

[xatlas0]

can i use a 530i ecu?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ADBS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=370055860578

Depends on if it is an EWS enabled DME. Even then, you have to switch out the tune chip with a 540 one, otherwise the car will run lean.

[BigM62]

If you are a competent tech and can work on your car,by all means get a S38,open her up with $$$$ forged internals.But plan on keeping a wrench in your back pocket at all times.

[moroza]

The M50 cars have a different Motronic version than the M60 cars, so no, they are not swappable. As for if you can just pop a 540 DME into a 525 and have all the gauges work, I am uncertain. I don't know enough about the signals used for the chassis, and if they were standardized throughout the chassis run.
I plan on gutting the car enough that finding out will be as easy as it ever could be. Not that that's especially easy...


You should be able to use any M60 DME, but I am not sure if the 7 had a specific DME, I kinda doubt it. OBD-I was in place from (I think) 1988 to 1995.So a 94 B40 DME should work. My understanding of the electronics is that everything is identical between the B30 and B40 systems except the chip containing the fuel/ignition map. Is that right? I'll be getting a custom chip from somewhere (Mark D'Sylva, hopefully) to take advantage of the extra displacement, but I still need the B40 chip to run it until that happens?



Realistically, if you are trying to swap in a M62 into an E34, it only really makes sense to do it to a 530 of some kind, as with a 540 it doesn't make sense unless the engine is trashed, and with the M5X and M30 cars, the engine bays are so different that you end up pretty much replacing the front clip to shoehorn the engine in there. Is it just brackets for the peripherals, and the front subframe, or is it more integrated than that? 525iT's are a lot more common, and there's a chance of finding an OEM sunroofless one, saving me the work of deleting it.



I saw that you were pondering an uber-touring, and I'd say go with a 530it, as that should pose the fewest hassles, if you are sticking with the V8. In terms of an S38 or a M62, it really depends on how far you want to take it. If you want to end up with a 1000 hp turbo screaming machine, the S38 would be the way to go. If you want something fairly cheap to run and has plenty of low-end torque, I'd go with the M6X.Eventually, I'd want to turn it into a monster, but neither my budget, nor mechanical, nor driving abilities are at that point. VS Motor is cool and all, but a boosted S38 seems a seriously bad idea for something I want to be able to drive across the country. A turbo or two on a 2JZ, LSx, or ye olde M50/S52 make a lot more sense.

For Stage 0, I'm looking for a weekend/occasion/longish trip car, which is what my 535i has turned into now that I have a truck, but is too slow (~180whp) and thirsty (17mpg mixed). As improvement over current goes, I want either major economy (+ >5mpg mixed) and modest power (+ ~20whp), or substantial power (+ >60whp) and at least same economy.


If you are a competent tech and can work on your car,by all means get a S38,open her up with $$$$ forged internals.But plan on keeping a wrench in your back pocket at all times.

I already keep a sizable toolkit in my trunk. I can deal with having to fiddle with a car on a regular basis, and even having it be non-op some of the time, but risk of catastrophic as opposed to gradual failure is unacceptable. An S38 would probably be pushing my current mechanical skills (so would either improve them, or make me end my interest in cars with a bloody, greasy, flaming, wrench-flinging tirade), but the bigger issue is that I don't know if I want to have to pay for its parts, which sounds inevitable with an S38 regardless of age or condition.

Other issue, somewhat off-topic, is that I want to at least attempt a steering rack conversion, as the second major project on this car. I've never heard of anything with an M62 and a rack, so this is probably a long shot...but any idea if the V8 can be made to fit with a rack, or if the S38 would be more amenable to that?

[xatlas0]

I plan on gutting the car enough that finding out will be as easy as it ever could be. Not that that's especially easy...
So a 94 B40 DME should work. My understanding of the electronics is that everything is identical between the B30 and B40 systems except the chip containing the fuel/ignition map. Is that right? I'll be getting a custom chip from somewhere (Mark D'Sylva, hopefully) to take advantage of the extra displacement, but I still need the B40 chip to run it until that happens?
Indeed, to really figure out the signals, you'd need an o-scope, not exactly a cheap item. Then, if they are different, you'd have to deal with some sort of microcontroller signal converter. Bleh. No thanks.

As for the difference, yes, I think that is all. If I recall right, Antreib did exactly that with his B30->B40 swap.



Is it just brackets for the peripherals, and the front subframe, or is it more integrated than that? 525iT's are a lot more common, and there's a chance of finding an OEM sunroofless one, saving me the work of deleting it.

It's the brackets, the battery, the braking system, all the hard lines, the ABS system, the power steering system, the cruise control... pretty much everything is at least moved, if not unique to the V8 cars. Like I said, major PITA. Just look at some 540 engine bay shots and compare it to the 535's bay; everything is moved.

To make the sunroof thing easier, you could just make a fiberglass blank and sub it in for the glass, as well as making it a fixed item by removing all the motors and such. Way easier than the painful bodywork required to truly delete it.



Eventually, I'd want to turn it into a monster, but neither my budget, nor mechanical, nor driving abilities are at that point. VS Motor is cool and all, but a boosted S38 seems a seriously bad idea for something I want to be able to drive across the country. A turbo or two on a 2JZ, LSx, or ye olde M50/S52 make a lot more sense.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to DD a S38 turbo. It couldn't tow the required gas tanker very well. :stickoutt



For Stage 0, I'm looking for a weekend/occasion/longish trip car, which is what my 535i has turned into now that I have a truck, but is too slow (~180whp) and thirsty (17mpg mixed). As improvement over current goes, I want either major economy (+ >5mpg mixed) and modest power (+ ~20whp), or substantial power (+ >60whp) and at least same economy.
The M62 does sound like the way to go for stage one, but then there's a problem. After doing this swap, there really isn't much else to do to the M6X engines. Sure, there are a few centri super setups, but given how the best of the engine is in the midrange, (3k-5k RPM) rather than the peak, I can't say I'd go that route. If you keep your foot out of it, you should be able to pull low 20s in the city and almost 30 on the highway.



I already keep a sizable toolkit in my trunk. I can deal with having to fiddle with a car on a regular basis, and even having it be non-op some of the time, but risk of catastrophic as opposed to gradual failure is unacceptable. An S38 would probably be pushing my current mechanical skills (so would either improve them, or make me end my interest in cars with a bloody, greasy, flaming, wrench-flinging tirade), but the bigger issue is that I don't know if I want to have to pay for its parts, which sounds inevitable with an S38 regardless of age or condition.
Yep, S38 parts are not cheap, no matter where they come from. Additionally, the hidden danger with making such a car is that it is a Frankenstein, meaning if you get in over your head, there is no factory manual or mechanic to bail you out. You are the only one that can fix it because it is the only one like it.



Other issue, somewhat off-topic, is that I want to at least attempt a steering rack conversion, as the second major project on this car. I've never heard of anything with an M62 and a rack, so this is probably a long shot...but any idea if the V8 can be made to fit with a rack, or if the S38 would be more amenable to that?

I think your major issue would be the oil pan. The M60 pan drips over the front and back of the front subframe, pretty much eliminating the possiblity of a steering rack. If you went with a dry-sump, however, I don't see why you couldn't use a rack from say, a 525ix. You would have to order the parts from overseas.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HJ71&mospid=47394&btnr=32_0637&hg=32&fg=10

It would give you perfect chassis fitment, and all the linkages would already be the correct size, which would help cut down on your fabrication issues.

[BigM62]

"The M62 does sound like the way to go for stage one, but then there's a problem. After doing this swap, there really isn't much else to do to the M6X engines. Sure, there are a few centri super setups, but given how the best of the engine is in the midrange, (3k-5k RPM) rather than the peak, I can't say I'd go that route. If you keep your foot out of it, you should be able to pull low 20s in the city and almost 30 on the highway."

Glad you brought this up.It is exactly why I have a CF supercharger for for M62 now.I want the S/C to take over(and I mean really take over) after the "sweet spot",so I stll have alot more power to go on top at WOT.:redspot

[clevertd]

Spray:D

[Jcbe34]

"The M62 does sound like the way to go for stage one, but then there's a problem. After doing this swap, there really isn't much else to do to the M6X engines. Sure, there are a few centri super setups, but given how the best of the engine is in the midrange, (3k-5k RPM) rather than the peak, I can't say I'd go that route. If you keep your foot out of it, you should be able to pull low 20s in the city and almost 30 on the highway."

Glad you brought this up.It is exactly why I have a CF supercharger for for M62 now.I want the S/C to take over(and I mean really take over) after the "sweet spot",so I stll have alot more power to go on top at WOT.:redspot

What kind of numbers does your car make?

[moroza]

It's the brackets, the battery, the braking system, all the hard lines, the ABS system, the power steering system, the cruise control... pretty much everything is at least moved, if not unique to the V8 cars. Like I said, major PITA. Just look at some 540 engine bay shots and compare it to the 535's bay; everything is moved. Ugh, yeah, doesn't sound fun. Especially since a 525iT would require coming up with half an M60 anyway...


The M62 does sound like the way to go for stage one, but then there's a problem. After doing this swap, there really isn't much else to do to the M6X engines. Sure, there are a few centri super setups, but given how the best of the engine is in the midrange, (3k-5k RPM) rather than the peak, I can't say I'd go that route. If you keep your foot out of it, you should be able to pull low 20s in the city and almost 30 on the highway. Well, there is the supercharger idea. And expensive as they are, there are cams and headers out there. If I wanted easy mod potential, I'd do an LSx or 2JZ swap. But realistically, I think I'll be happy with an M62 for at least as long as I was happy with an M30, which was about 2 years.



Yep, S38 parts are not cheap, no matter where they come from. Additionally, the hidden danger with making such a car is that it is a Frankenstein, meaning if you get in over your head, there is no factory manual or mechanic to bail you out. You are the only one that can fix it because it is the only one like it. An S38 itself shouldn't require too much hacking to drop into a 525iT (the rest of the car may be a different story), so anyone competent with an S38 probably wouldn't have too much more trouble. Then again, I guess that's not saying much, is it?



I think your major issue would be the oil pan. The M60 pan drips over the front and back of the front subframe, pretty much eliminating the possiblity of a steering rack. If you went with a dry-sump, however, I don't see why you couldn't use a rack from say, a 525ix. You would have to order the parts from overseas.
It would give you perfect chassis fitment, and all the linkages would already be the correct size, which would help cut down on your fabrication issues.I think it was lowell who told me about the 525iX - apparently, the entire front subframe/suspension setup is pulled straight from the E30 325iX and is pretty much incompatible with other E34's. E30 people don't seem to like their racks anyhow, and if I'm going through the headache, I might as well do it right - E36 M3. As for drysump...well. I assume I'd need to do one of two things. Either get a custom-made oil pan (maybe just shaped differently to keep it wetsump and with the same capacity), or glom on the S62's system and hope that its pan will fit a rack. I won't get any benefits of the drysump (can't lower the engine, and I doubt the car will pull enough G's to make oil starvation an issue), so only the first seems to make sense. But the main question is - would an S38 be any easier, besides having more maneuvering room in general?

Regarding the M62 - I gather that I'll need to either drill the M62 lower timing cover to accept the M60's crank sensor, or install the M60 lower cover, which would require converting the M62 to use the M60's timing chain and all associated gears, covers, and whatnot. Will all that bolt up to the M62's block? I'm particularly concerned about the idler gear, since the M62 uses a V-shaped guide. And will I need to swap harmonic balancers (not something I look forward to, especially if balancing is involved)?

Regarding the alternators - I presumably want the highest-rated alternator available, and liquid-cooled sounds like a good idea. But RealOEM is a bit cryptic about what went where. It looks like the 530iT came with either a 100A or 140A, all B40's with 140A, and the M62 with a 120 or 140A, none of which appear liquid-cooled.

[BigM62]

What kind of numbers does your car make?
It made 368 rwhp on my old 4.0L and Powerdyne belt drive BD10A S/C at 4.5 psi.I now have a 4.4L and Powerdyne XB1A gear drive S/C with 6psi and water injection.And I just installed new high performance clutch as my last OEM lasted 4K miles:(.So I am going easy for awhile before new dyno.

[MacR]

As soon as the trans. gets here, I'll have the new m62 in. It's already running and ready to go.


It made 368 rwhp on my old 4.0L and Powerdyne belt drive BD10A S/C at 4.5 psi.I now have a 4.4L and Powerdyne XB1A gear drive S/C with 6psi and water injection.And I just installed new high performance clutch as my last OEM lasted 4K miles:(.So I am going easy for awhile before new dyno.

I thought the 4.4 swap was before you owned it? Did you own the 4.0 before it was in Jimmy's car? :shifty

[moroza]

What's your M62 going into?

[Baldingo540]

i have a MarkD chip in my e34 540 6 speed right now, could i use that or would i have to get a new one custom tuned for the M62?

[BigM62]

i have a MarkD chip in my e34 540 6 speed right now, could i use that or would i have to get a new one custom tuned for the M62?
You will have to call MarkD.He can do a custom tune for you.

[ignitiondelay]

Bringing this back!!!

What do I need?

an m62b44 motor.
M60 Both upper timing covers
M60 Lower timing cover
M60 belt-driven equipment (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919713&highlight=m62#) (alt is different. M62's is water cooled, I think)
M60 harness
M60 throttle body / TPS
M60 harmonic balancer / pulley system (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919713&highlight=m62#)
M60 DME
M60 intake manifold
M60 oil pan
m60 chain
m60 cam and crank sensor?
modifying the upper timing cover to allow the cam sensor to clear?
M62 OBD-I tune (reprogram my ecu?)

use the cams from the 530i?

will my 530i auto transmission hold up?

lol, this has only been done once before?

[Bluebimma]

not all m62s use water cooled alts

[4500 RPM]

will my 530i auto transmission hold up?



Hell no.

[E30 Groupie]

Bringing this back!!!

What do I need?

an m62b44 motor.
M60 Both upper timing covers
M60 Lower timing cover
M60 belt-driven equipment (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919713&highlight=m62#) (alt is different. M62's is water cooled, I think)
M60 harness
M60 throttle body / TPS
M60 harmonic balancer / pulley system (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919713&highlight=m62#)
M60 DME
M60 intake manifold
M60 oil pan
m60 chain
m60 cam and crank sensor?
modifying the upper timing cover to allow the cam sensor to clear?
M62 OBD-I tune (reprogram my ecu?)

use the cams from the 530i?

will my 530i auto transmission hold up?

lol, this has only been done once before?
I am sort of in the same boat. I have a dying 530i, and I want to get the ball rolling on this one...

[stevie c]

Hi All, I just joined this forum with the hope that someone here will be able to help!, I run an e34 530i, swapped the 3.0 m60 for a 4.0 m60 a few months ago, also fitted zf5hp30 auto box and all ecu's along with an ess supercharger and methanol chargecooling, also swapped diff for a 3.6 lsd, all was well until the motor started breathing heavily, just pulled it out and stripped it to find a broken piston! and all bores scored...

ok so my choices are as follows, I can either get the original (alusil) 4.0 block overbored and cast iron linered, and get forged pistons made in a 92mm diameter (giving me a strong 4.4)... fine but EXPENSIVE!!... or look for another m60 4.0.. dont fancy it much as the last one broke and its a big job swapping them..

or fitting an m62 4.4

question is (and sorry if this has been covered) the m62 looks very similar, will the m62 be a straight swap for the m60 and will it even run on my original m60 wiring and ecu? (assuming I get a non vanos one).. a nice simple answer would be appreciated

obviously my ecu has been modded to run a supercharger, along with bigger injectors different inlet backplate etc

many thanks in advance
Steve

[E30 Groupie]

Steve, the way I have understood it, you can use the 4.4 bottom that doesnt have the vanos up top, without having to change anything else really.

Correct me if I am wrong anyone?

[stevie c]

I was going to use the non vanos 4.4 anyway, what i was hoping is that I could use my original m60 4.0 wiring and dme/ecu and just connect the original sensor wires for the crank and cams to the different location on the m62.. is that possible?

again many thanks, all thoughts and advice very very welcome!
steve

[xatlas0]

I was going to use the non vanos 4.4 anyway, what i was hoping is that I could use my original m60 4.0 wiring and dme/ecu and just connect the original sensor wires for the crank and cams to the different location on the m62.. is that possible?

again many thanks, all thoughts and advice very very welcome!
steve

That was the idea of this whole thread. People have chimed in with their 2 bits, since I have not done the swap myself. The answers are in this thread.

[BigM62]

Long block M60 to M62=weld crank postion sensor on and new tune.

[stevie c]

Thanks for that guys, I do realise that this was the point of this thread, but having read through all 5 pages there seemed to be many different opinions and divertions inc crank sensor, cam sensor and electrical issues, what I was after was a consise and definative answer, obviously if i blow £750/£1000 on an m62 I would want to be able to run the thing!.... I have my complete m60 here in bits so can use any parts from that

ok so the answer is literally use the m60 crank sensor and balancer/pully.. thats it? thats all I will need to do to run an m62 succesfully everything else stays the same, m60 wiring, dme the lot right?

Steve

[xatlas0]

You will also need a custom OBD-I tune, as the stock 540 tune will lean out at the top end. (more airflow than the adaptive can take due to increased displacement)

Alternatively, it depends on how "custom" you want it to be. The M62 does have several aspects that are worse than the M60, such as the timing chain. I have listened to a M62 and a M60 started up, and the M60 is much quieter. The M62 sounds like a box of nails running through a cement mixer. The combination of an idler gear and the double row nature of the M60 chain is a nice bit to keep. However, if the cash isn't available to strip and re-install those components (along with the front covers) then welding a bracket for the crank position sensor may be sufficient.

The summary is nobody who has the swap on this board did it themselves and therefore the swap procedure hasn't been documented. Shops have always done it for theose that do have it. Therefore, everything said is still supposition. I'd talk it over with the install shop before blowing money to verify what has been listed, and get their expert opinion.

[stevie c]

Ok so realistically then thats the final answer.. noone really knows for sure!, have to say I cannot find any expert proffesionals on this motor that would know any more than me or the 2 other garages on either side of me! I can only rely on the fact that this swap HAS been done and is possible!

leaning out at the top end wont be an issue as the car is running a charger at 8.5 psi of boost and the maf is fitted with a resistor to compensate for this, also running a variable fuel reg so I can manually increase rail pressure to compensate for any leaning, obviously the injectors are also considerably larger than stock!, chances are I will run a piggyback ecu as well so as to able to map the thing properly.. the simplex timing on the m62 is clearly not as good as the duplex and idler on the m60 but that said its not going to be caused any more stress by charging so noisy or not I expect its fit for purpose... I may even swap the gear over.. budget not an issue I'll do it myself!

well depending on what I decide to do I may be the first on here to actually do this conversion and as such if anyones interested I'll document it and then we will have the definative answers..

Steve

[stevie c]

right decision made, just bought an m62 1996 version with 80000 miles on it... I'll post the definative how to when its in and running.. I'll be doing it myself so all the right answers will be here.
steve

[xatlas0]

Ok so realistically then thats the final answer.. noone really knows for sure!, have to say I cannot find any expert proffesionals on this motor that would know any more than me or the 2 other garages on either side of me! I can only rely on the fact that this swap HAS been done and is possible!

leaning out at the top end wont be an issue as the car is running a charger at 8.5 psi of boost and the maf is fitted with a resistor to compensate for this, also running a variable fuel reg so I can manually increase rail pressure to compensate for any leaning, obviously the injectors are also considerably larger than stock!, chances are I will run a piggyback ecu as well so as to able to map the thing properly.. the simplex timing on the m62 is clearly not as good as the duplex and idler on the m60 but that said its not going to be caused any more stress by charging so noisy or not I expect its fit for purpose... I may even swap the gear over.. budget not an issue I'll do it myself!

well depending on what I decide to do I may be the first on here to actually do this conversion and as such if anyones interested I'll document it and then we will have the definative answers..

Steve

If you are feeling up to it, a MegaSquirt system would likely be better than a piggyback and would let you replace the scaler resistor and AFPR with a real tune. Alternatively, you could get a remote OBD-I tune for relatively cheap, there's a few members on here that would probably be willing to do it, such things usually go for ~500$, although since your engine is custom, there may be some more cost. I'd ask guys like TRM (The Racer's Market), Mark D'Sylvia, Wokke (who is actually on your side of the pond, but is on the mainland, if memory serves), some others. The FI section of the board has many threads about OBD-I tuners/tuning, although virtually none of them are about the M6X engines.

Actually, due to the increased torque, the chain would be under more stress. Still, I haven't heard of the few SC-ed M62s skipping teeth at WOT jumps before, though, so it likely isn't an issue. I'd likely do it just to keep everything stock looking and to increase the durability of the system. The M88 guys do the same thing in responce to their simplex timing chain.

Alternatively, since you have the ESS charger system, fitting that up may pose some complications, as I recall another member was having a devil of a time getting the M62 kit adapted to a M60 on his 8-series. Also, since your last engine croaked due to what sounds like detonation, I'd seriously suggest getting a good tune first, as at least then the anti-knock sensors would be able to pull the timing correctly and save your engine. Also, rather than methanol charge cooling, why not a W/A intercooler rig? I know the E34 doesn't allow for much of an A/A IC, but people have done a W/A setup before with excellent results.

[stevie c]

If you are feeling up to it, a MegaSquirt system would likely be better than a piggyback and would let you replace the scaler resistor and AFPR with a real tune. Alternatively, you could get a remote OBD-I tune for relatively cheap, there's a few members on here that would probably be willing to do it, such things usually go for ~500$, although since your engine is custom, there may be some more cost. I'd ask guys like TRM (The Racer's Market), Mark D'Sylvia, Wokke (who is actually on your side of the pond, but is on the mainland, if memory serves), some others. The FI section of the board has many threads about OBD-I tuners/tuning, although virtually none of them are about the M6X engines.

Actually, due to the increased torque, the chain would be under more stress. Still, I haven't heard of the few SC-ed M62s skipping teeth at WOT jumps before, though, so it likely isn't an issue. I'd likely do it just to keep everything stock looking and to increase the durability of the system. The M88 guys do the same thing in responce to their simplex timing chain.

Alternatively, since you have the ESS charger system, fitting that up may pose some complications, as I recall another member was having a devil of a time getting the M62 kit adapted to a M60 on his 8-series. Also, since your last engine croaked due to what sounds like detonation, I'd seriously suggest getting a good tune first, as at least then the anti-knock sensors would be able to pull the timing correctly and save your engine. Also, rather than methanol charge cooling, why not a W/A intercooler rig? I know the E34 doesn't allow for much of an A/A IC, but people have done a W/A setup before with excellent results.

Ok, well tuning wise we use dave at interpro, very very experienced and my best bet of geting things right, whether I go for a standalone set up or a piggyback I trust the guy and will go with his advice on this one, as for the timing gear I cant really see that the stress on it is going to be any higher as I'll be using stock cams and springs.. and as you said I'v never heard any problems with it (apart from the non idler simplex chatter..)..

yes the m62 charger set up is a pig to adapt to an m60 but thats cos the layout of the e39 etc is different to an e34,and is obd2, will be no problem at all on mine as the setup will stay just the same, all mounts and pulleys etc ..straight swap over and my wiring harness will be the same, My guess is that pinking/preignition was certainly a factor in the death of my last engine.. that said it had had a new bottom end/block when I bought the donor car.. and I suspect that it was not built well anyway judging from the bad scoring on all the cylinders,..only 1 piston was actually in pieces..

as for cooling my water/meth set up is best for me as the meth richens up the mixture helping with any leanout conditions at high rpms, and frankly 8.5 psi is hardly huge boost!, I could fit a w/a cooler as having binned the original bumper and front end I do have lots of space for one.. but the meth injection works well... (wasnt fitted for a while after charger went on and I think the damage happened prior)

I'll revert to the larger blower pulley and keep the revs down until the cars been set up properly...

for the money its cost me for the m62.. if it doesnt stick it well.. I'll revert to original plan and rebuild the m60 with cast liners and forged pistons....thats if I dont turn the block into a coffee table !

I'll post the results up here as I have them, as a reference the 4.0 produced 440 bhp before it died.. If all goes well I'm aiming for nearer 500 this time... the cars primary job is 1/4 mile sprints so it doesnt get huge milage

steve

[EFU]

I'm not kidding. I think this is the BEST thread I've ever come across on BF.C

Pure. Car. Talk.

as the Owner of a 530im this is on my mind often!

Thanks Guys!

[MaloventEvil]

Long block M60 to M62=weld crank postion sensor on and new tune.

if you don't mind, how much did this end up costing you? (i forgot if you already told me) feel free to pm the answer. is that shop that you told me about still doing this kind of stuff?

[stevie c]

I know you wernt actually asking me ..but cost wise for me was

93 530i.. free
93 740i £420 (but swapped engines and trans for 3.0 and resold for £400)
full poly bush kit £130
full suspension change gas struts + springs £300
e39 m5 wheels £300
tyres £300
bucket seats £200
bodykit £175
3.64 diff £80 (+ machine turn and reweld smaller output splines £50)
ess charger kit £2800... ouch!
devils own meth kit £175
plenty of 3" stainless exhaust tube £190
walbro 500 hp rated fuel pump £90
adjustable fuel reg and boost £80
boost gauge and fuel pressure gauges £85
ipt modded valve body ($650 + carriage from states!)

thats about it to date but will update when new m62 motor arrives (£550)

bear in mind that all body work inc kit fitting, welding and blending of rear doors, interior work, engine swaps, suspension fitting, diff fitting and mods, charger fitting, meth kit fitting, exhaust fabrication, modding the prop, tyre fitting, wheel refurb, paint, was carried out in house here so no cost there..

have to add that I sold the complete leather interior for £350, the original wheels and tyres for £200 and various other bits and bobs for £200 or so :-)

costs for doing the m62 swap should be pretty minimal
Steve

[xatlas0]

Ok, well tuning wise we use dave at interpro, very very experienced and my best bet of geting things right, whether I go for a standalone set up or a piggyback I trust the guy and will go with his advice on this one, as for the timing gear I cant really see that the stress on it is going to be any higher as I'll be using stock cams and springs.. and as you said I'v never heard any problems with it (apart from the non idler simplex chatter..)..

yes the m62 charger set up is a pig to adapt to an m60 but thats cos the layout of the e39 etc is different to an e34,and is obd2, will be no problem at all on mine as the setup will stay just the same, all mounts and pulleys etc ..straight swap over and my wiring harness will be the same, My guess is that pinking/preignition was certainly a factor in the death of my last engine.. that said it had had a new bottom end/block when I bought the donor car.. and I suspect that it was not built well anyway judging from the bad scoring on all the cylinders,..only 1 piston was actually in pieces..

as for cooling my water/meth set up is best for me as the meth richens up the mixture helping with any leanout conditions at high rpms, and frankly 8.5 psi is hardly huge boost!, I could fit a w/a cooler as having binned the original bumper and front end I do have lots of space for one.. but the meth injection works well... (wasnt fitted for a while after charger went on and I think the damage happened prior)

I'll revert to the larger blower pulley and keep the revs down until the cars been set up properly...

for the money its cost me for the m62.. if it doesnt stick it well.. I'll revert to original plan and rebuild the m60 with cast liners and forged pistons....thats if I dont turn the block into a coffee table !

I'll post the results up here as I have them, as a reference the 4.0 produced 440 bhp before it died.. If all goes well I'm aiming for nearer 500 this time... the cars primary job is 1/4 mile sprints so it doesnt get huge milage

steve

So it is mainly a drag car? Hm, that is rather unusual, especially over there.

The main reason I'd suggest trying to get a tune (meaning, a tune for the 540's DME directly, not a piggyback, not a standalone) is that it would let you use the engine's knock sensors, as currently, with everything scaled this or adjusted that, I don't think the knock sensors would work quite right, and your timing table is probably more than a little messed up. Might have helped save the old block, but like you said, that sounds a lot like prior damage. Many of the FI guys have used the stock DME on US E36 M3s up to and beyond 600 hp, albeit they had their car tuned and custom chips made. It is already all there, so why not use it? They also use the 540 MAF unscaled without issue, up to ~500hp is I recall right, based on some of the other SC-ed M62 540s on here.

8.5 psi is def. low boost. If you'd like, there is a shop that made a good 400+ rwhp ESS SC E39 540 over here, called ICS.

http://www.icsperformance.com/dc%20dyno%20sae.htm

You could email them for some ideas on what happened. A tune would also let you remove the meth kit, since you wouldn't need the AFR bump, as it would be correctly programmed in by a full tune. Or, just keep it and have it optimized.

[stevie c]

lol, yep an e34 drag car is very unusual.. in fact i'v never seen another exepting the m5 versions!.... thats exactly why I built it!.. and because my base car came free!!

as for chip tuning on the std dme, thats already done! its been replaced with an ess remapped chip to compensate for all the new variables, initially it ran 6 psi of boost and made 388bhp, but after speaking to ess they were happy for me to run 8.5 psi safely!, in fact they reckoned I could go a bit more (9.5/10), but I thought we'd see how it did on 8.5 for a while!....

the reason I wanted to go piggyback is to allow some tweaking to the timing as with the chargecooler running, knock will be stopped even at higher timing advance.. which is more power obviously!, I scanned the motor several time's and the sensors were performing correctly so shouldnt have been an issue..

the reason I want to go for a piggyback is just to gain control over all the management in a realtime rolling road situation, specially as with the m62 my original ess remap will not be quite right!


forgot to add the gbox has had a full ipt trans reworked valve body too.. which helps

Steve

[stevie c]

anyone know how I can add a photo gallery? I did look under faq and it says use user cp then click on add album... I have no option for that on my cp?.. just thought you might like to actually see a 2 door e34 with prostreet bonnet! :-)

[ringle]

anyone know how I can add a photo gallery? I did look under faq and it says use user cp then click on add album... I have no option for that on my cp?.. just thought you might like to actually see a 2 door e34 with prostreet bonnet! :-)

You just need a few more posts and then you will be able to post pics.

[BigM62]

if you don't mind, how much did this end up costing you? (i forgot if you already told me) feel free to pm the answer. is that shop that you told me about still doing this kind of stuff?

My x-tuner is a POS.He tries to use the Unichip,but after blowing up many motors,I do not know how Schatz&Krum stay in business.I found a good tuner in Fremont,Cali-310 Motorsports,who can tune the stock DME.

[stevie c]

Ok should be soon then as I suspect I'll be putting up quite a few on this topic, .. new m62 motor arrives next week!

[stevie c]

never comes.. :-)

well lets hope it does as the new m62 arrives (should)

expect answers on this subject quite quickly, and as soon as its run up and rolling roaded I'll post power figures too.

[5271990]

just thought you might like to actually see a 2 door e34 with prostreet bonnet! :-)

:devillook

What region are you in?

[stevie c]

herefordshire!.. land of the tractor

are you close?
steve

[stevie c]

m62 4.4 now sitting on my shop floor...

[5271990]

Nope, I'm in Merseyside.

I was hoping you were near. I've got two E34's and a stripped out caged E30 on slicks that need some TLC....

Take a few pictures of the swap if you get a chance, this has not been documented anywhere.

[stevie c]

merseyside! thats quite a way away!, yeah I will document the swap, from what I can see all the sensors are in the right places apart from the crank, which on the m62 is on the flywheel, and the cam which on m62 is a multipoint..... also the thermostat is different.. but looks like it will swap over easy.

I'll post everything here and then we will all know :-)

[stevie c]

Ok all. this is how its done. admittedly not actually fitted or started yet but very very confident that it will... we started at about 4 pm yesterday and wound up at about 9.30 pm..

I documented it carefully and genuinly hope this is on interest/ help to someone!

first job was pull off inlet manifold complete with fuel rail wiring/ injectors etc

next examined the simplex set up/ multipoint pickup

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4420/l1ci1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/l1ci1.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img98/l1ci1.jpg/1/)

you can see the multipoint plate here

heres the duplex gear, pickup arrowed, we were going to instal this and just use one gear on the simplex, but the cam was a different size and the gear fouled on the upper housing..

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4471/l2ii0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/l2ii0.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img262/l2ii0.jpg/1/)

here you can see the pickup point, and that the original sensor is way to long (m62 sensor has different connection also)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2651/l3qy6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/l3qy6.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img529/l3qy6.jpg/1/)

so we decided to modify the original m62 multipoint plate, marked all the cam positions, worked out which tag would corespond to the original duplex point and machine off the rest

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2038/l4xk8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/l4xk8.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img519/l4xk8.jpg/1/)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6593/l5lf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/l5lf4.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img299/l5lf4.jpg/1/)

then reinstalled the plate checking the cam timing marks were all still good

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4390/l6zl9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/l6zl9.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img204/l6zl9.jpg/1/)

next reinstall the m60 sensor and bend the remaining pickup point so there is clearance

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3662/l7yv4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/l7yv4.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img224/l7yv4.jpg/1/)

thats that done !

next was the crank sensor, happily the tdc mark on the m62 lower case was marked, and the m60 sensor bracket was also markd with tdc.. so we cut off the bracket and sensor complete made a new bracket for the m62 lower and lined up the 2 tdc marks.. jobs a good one !

also swapped the bottom pulley for the m60 one with its crank sensor ring and blower pulley (m62 was a REAL bitch to undo!!

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1779/l9ik4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/l9ik4.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img509/l9ik4.jpg/1/)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1369/l10sm0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/l10sm0.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img177/l10sm0.jpg/1/)


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7996/l11lt5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/l11lt5.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img84/l11lt5.jpg/1/)

[stevie c]

ok so heres the set up, m60 sensor on m62..

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6743/l12sm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/l12sm1.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img84/l12sm1.jpg/1/)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1697/l13mk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/l13mk9.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img212/l13mk9.jpg/1/)

Next its the smaller stuff, remove redundent sensors from the water pump/housing, and blank off unneccesary pipes, reroute starter cable in the valley

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8366/l15fi9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8366/l15fi9.c90644196e.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=525&i=l15fi9.jpg)

[stevie c]

next swap the m62 under valley pipework for the m60, as all the unions are different, and the m60 uses 2 extra sensors (arrowed), straight swap into m62 pump!

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7201/l20nk7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/l20nk7.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img262/l20nk7.jpg/1/)

then swap over knock sensors as the m62 has 4 but only uses 2 connections rather than the m60's 4

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2593/l21lj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/l21lj3.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img396/l21lj3.jpg/1/)

ok so we are nearly there, use m62 flywheel and flex plate, swap the alternators as the m62's wiring is different, swap the fan belt as the m60's is a different length, fit the m60 oil filter housing (you'll need to make brackets)

then refit the m60 inlet and all associated stuff coilpacks etc

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6294/l22ve0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/l22ve0.jpg/1/w523.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img171/l22ve0.jpg/1/)

and thats about it folks... heres a pic of me mate Nick looking pleased with our nights work :-)

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2286/l23ul7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/l23ul7.jpg/1/w480.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img172/l23ul7.jpg/1/)

any questions just ask, will see if it runs over the next few days...
steve

[5271990]

This thread has lasted 8months and you did most of the swap in one night :rofl

[stevie c]

yup.. but in fairness I only joined the forum a couple of weeks ago... and mainly to find out if this was possible.. it was you guys who took 8 months!

have I made a worthwhile contribution then? :-)

[xatlas0]

Why did you swap the M60 intake manifold in? The early M62 manifold is Apparently a bit better than the M60 one.

Could you not use the M60 clutch/flywheel? The M60's clutch is actually larger than the M62's. (I think 265 vs 240)

Now we just need to combine all the pictures and text of the thread into a big pdf file or something for posterity, once it is validated that your cam pickup works. (don't see why it wouldn't)

Nice work!

[stevie c]

update... its in, m60 manifold is the same as the m62, exept fror it has internal trumpets (better) also the mani/rail/ injectors/loom/coilpacks all come out as one! so makes life easier.. as for flywheel and clutch... its an auto!! (on modified 5hp30 with ipt modded valve body :-) )... we will get a note out of it tonight rest assured!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2636/l26md6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[xatlas0]

update... its in, m60 manifold is the same as the m62, exept fror it has internal trumpets (better) also the mani/rail/ injectors/loom/coilpacks all come out as one! so makes life easier.. as for flywheel and clutch... its an auto!! (on modified 5hp30 with ipt modded valve body :-) )... we will get a note out of it tonight rest assured!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2636/l26md6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oh yeah, that's right. I completely forgot about it being an auto. How do you like the IPT valve body, by the by? My crappy rebuild has been nothing but trouble, so I'm scouting a better deal, perhaps even doing the rebuild myself. (since I don't use the car on a daily, or even weekly basis now)

On that note, anybody got the ZF 5HP30 rebuild and valve body manual? I have many of the BMW manuals, but for the 5HP30 rebuild procedure, it keeps referencing other manuals I don't have, like Gr26-Construction something-or-other.

[BigM62]

Why did you swap the M60 intake manifold in? The early M62 manifold is Apparently a bit better than the M60 one.

Could you not use the M60 clutch/flywheel? The M60's clutch is actually larger than the M62's. (I think 265 vs 240)

Now we just need to combine all the pictures and text of the thread into a big pdf file or something for posterity, once it is validated that your cam pickup works. (don't see why it wouldn't)

Nice work!

M60 intake mani is better-flows more.And yes the M60 6 spd came with 265mm,even bigger than a E39 M5.By the way,I did this swap 2 years ago.

[stevie c]

all done engine in and running well, first startup vid below, open headers of course, stayed up late refitting rad etc, also fabbed up a new exhaust system

another point that I missed.. and found out late last night is that the m62 exhuast manifolds are different, hit the floor of an e34 and the exits are the reverse of the m60 ones.. lots of chopping and bending required!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLAQ0b5n-zc

[stevie c]

oh and ipt vb... havnt really had the chance to try the car out properly yet so cant say.. will let you know :-)

anyway thats how you do an m62 into e34 swap, nothing missed and works perfect,..

thanks for the input all I hope someone finds this usefull :-)

I'll update anything else that i do
Steve

[BigM62]

Well my car is in the shop geeting a #8 ring job.I had some blow by and did a compression/leak down test.I only had 30 in my #8 cylinder.I am also going to up my boost from 5.5 to 10 psi.I am also looking to see if a M62B46 4.6L crank will go into my M62.:evil2

[Analog]

^I'm glad somebody around here has money :)

[E30 Groupie]

I just did a compression test, got 200 on 5, 140 on one, 150 on one, and 170 on one. Reason for alarm or teardown? Motor will be out anyway... Opinions?

[MacR]

Good to see the swap documented. Your pictures answered two questions I had thanks a ton!

I'm finally getting around to fitting the new pistons this weekend.

[thrustarms]

I have a question about an E39 Transmission being interchangeable with an E34.

Can you point me to the right direction? Thanks.

You're talking about the 560Z transmission, correct?

[MacR]

e34 and e39 m6x manual trannys are direct swap.

[thrustarms]

Ahhh, manual transmissions. Got it.

[MacR]

Well, I should have mentioned... the auto's will bolt up but I don't know about whether they'll need tuning or not.

[thrustarms]

I don't think there is a difference in the auto transmissions either if you are dealing with the 560Z 5 speeds. They should bolt up and function as they should. I don't know about the 440s though.

[stevie c]

I just did a compression test, got 200 on 5, 140 on one, 150 on one, and 170 on one. Reason for alarm or teardown? Motor will be out anyway... Opinions?

140 on one 200 on another? yep thats reason for alarm!!, more than a 10% difference is a big deal!! :-(

[stevie c]

Well my car is in the shop geeting a #8 ring job.I had some blow by and did a compression/leak down test.I only had 30 in my #8 cylinder.I am also going to up my boost from 5.5 to 10 psi.I am also looking to see if a M62B46 4.6L crank will go into my M62.:evil2

30 in no 8? thats a very bad sign fella!!, if you going for 10 psi check very carefully for boost leaks on all pipework and the front and rear plates on your inlet mani!,.. might do you to try 8.5 psi first (which should show about 440 bhp).. vortech will do about 12.5 psi before it starts generating nothing but heat!.. find out why you have only 30 psi.. if rings or piston broken then be very wary of 10 psi!!, 8.5 blew a piston in mine mainly from going lean and detonating.. its an expensive game!!

for what its worth mine currently at the rolling road, for some reason it is not enriching the mixture under full throttle!

[xatlas0]

I don't think there is a difference in the auto transmissions either if you are dealing with the 560Z 5 speeds. They should bolt up and function as they should. I don't know about the 440s though.

The E39 used the 5HP24, not the 5HP30, which the E34 used. The two are significantly different, with the 5HP30 being much stronger than the later 5HP24.

[BigM62]

Anybody know about M62 4.4L into 4.6L conversion?I currently have a M62 4.4L OBD1 non vanos and have access to a M62B46.

[MacR]

Somebody's tried that on an e30 and it required tons of fab. work. IIRC, it never worked.

All these newbies running m62 4.4's scaring you? Feel the need to upgrade?

[stevie c]

going 4.6 sounds quite tricky chap, it also wont rev as well being stroked.. certainly wont be worth much of a gain over the 4.4.. personally I'd concentrate on finding out why you've lost all that compression!!.. 30 psi on any cylinder means a broken piston or ring almost certainly!!

if you want more power look into a bigger airflow meter body (yours will max out over 7psi of boost) then look for some chargecooling, plenty of choice there..

mines under development at the minute, currently making 406bhp on 6psi, and the airflow meter is almost at its limit, trying to get hold of a prototype marcos mantis af housing to sort this, but also vortech is starting to produce to much heat.. so again chasing a mantis air to air chargecooler, sadly air to air is going to lose me 1 1/2 to 2 psi of boost.. so i'll have to downsize charger pulley again...

if you wanted to be clever you could go for a water to air chrgcooler.. but that will be quite a lot of work..

as for gearboxes 5hp24 would be a non starter on anything with over 280 ish bhp.. not strong enough to stand the torque, 5hp30 will stick whatever you throw at it (designed for bentley arnage ..2.5 tons, 550bhp 500lb torque) and ipt can modify it if you need!

[xatlas0]

Anybody know about M62 4.4L into 4.6L conversion?I currently have a M62 4.4L OBD1 non vanos and have access to a M62B46.

Based on what I have read, the 4.6 is a bored/stroked/cammed version of the 4.4, and was originally made by Alpina. Since the cams are different, and not used in the older, non-VANOS versions, you wouldnt be able to use them straight out of the box, you'd likely have to run an aftermarket computer like Motec or Autronic to control it. It seems like it is too much trouble for what you get, although I have never been able to find a B46 dyno to really be able to tell.

I wonder if you could use a S62 short block and a pair of M62 heads? I seriously doubt it, but that would get you 5L.

[wanganstyle]

i have pondered the same, although if vanos model 99+ m62 can be run w e34 elecs, then the 4.6 should be a similar affair, they should share vanos bits.

[tonyroc14]

I still want to put the 4.8L M5 engine in. That would be amazing, and i know someone on here did already. in there e34 m5.

[m60b30530i]

I still want to put the 4.8L M5 engine in. That would be amazing, and i know someone on here did already. in there e34 m5.

S62 :evil2

[tonyroc14]

S62 :evil2whats the full name of the motor

[stevie c]

i have pondered the same, although if vanos model 99+ m62 can be run w e34 elecs, then the 4.6 should be a similar affair, they should share vanos bits.

vanos m62 won't run on e34 electronics!

[Mr Project]

Stevie C, thanks for the great additional info in this thread. A couple extra questions if I can:

1 - You mentioned the M62 exhaust manifolds required a fair amount of work to work in the E34 body...can you not swap the M60 manifolds over? Are the heads too different?

2 - For the accessories like the PS pump and A/C compressor, are you using the M60 or the M62 parts? Does it matter / are they interchangeable?

[stevie c]

mr project, no problem at all,

I didnt actually realise that the exhausts were different until the engine was in!, so I cant tell you if the fit at the heads is the same, I would be 99.9% sure that the e34 ones will bolt straight up nto the m62 heads, obviously you can try this with the engines on the floor, it will make life much easier!, the m62 ones have the outlets 180 degrees round compared with the m60's and the outlet angle is different!, I got over this by chopping off the secondarys and re welding them the opposite way round!, but as for the clearance to the floorpan.. was a bit of a bash and bend!, but simpler than changing the manifolds over in situ!!, if you have the 2 motors out take a careful look and the manifolds you'll see what I mean.. they do look the same until you really look!!

as for p/s pump a/c its all the same, I dont run aircon but the pump and all the auxiluary belt tensioners etc are the same, all pretty straight forward

if you get stuck just give me a shout i'll do my best to help :-)

[BigM62]

When I did my engine swap,since the motor was out,I put in headers instead.

[NikosX]

There is a gentleman in the UK who swapped an S62 (5.0) into his E34 M5. It required some serious re-wiring. The car is running and seriously fast.

Now... it would be seriously expensive and seriously bothersome to try and swap a vanos M62 (4.4 OR 4.6) into an E34. Stick to non-vanos motors. Save yourself thousands of dollars. The difference in HP is non existent and the torque difference is negligible when its taken into consideration that you are going FI.

[stevie c]

When I did my engine swap,since the motor was out,I put in headers instead.

nothing wrong with that, but for me the cost of decent headers was way to high, and the std ones do flow well..as i said I'm getting 404 bhp on 6psi, intercooler now on and hoping to end up with at least 10 psi of boost, possibly more.. somewhere near 500 horse should be on the cards. but of course we'll see!

"There is a gentleman in the UK who swapped an S62 (5.0) into his E34 M5. It required some serious re-wiring. The car is running and seriously fast.

Now... it would be seriously expensive and seriously bothersome to try and swap a vanos M62 (4.4 OR 4.6) into an E34. Stick to non-vanos motors. Save yourself thousands of dollars. The difference in HP is non existent and the torque difference is negligible when its taken into consideration that you are going FI."

exactly, theres no point in trying to get a vanos motor in, trust me I looked into it, the vanos system is mainly there for emmisions and fuel economy reasons! no real gains in having it at all! at least not in terms of power which is (I think) what we are interested in!!... quite frankly if someone is prepared to go to that level of expense and effort you'd be better off dropping a chevy ls7 motor in instead, vastly more tunable and powerful even in stock trim!

on the other hand if you feeling brave go ahead get a vanos motor in your e34 get it running and post the results up here! :-), I'll get the best I can powerwise from my 4.4, put up the rollingroad results and then see if you can top it with a later motor!

Steve

[stevie c]

and heres what I did with the blown 4.0

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/980/lewiesblock002au9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/lewiesblock002au9.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img233/lewiesblock002au9.jpg/1/)

[MacR]

WOW! Thats awesome!!!

[stevie c]

update if anyones interested..
I now have a forge motorsport air to air intercooler fitted, along with associated pipework and a forge recirc dump valve.., hopefully this will drop my charge temp enough to up the boost, lots of aggro to fit it all up!... strange that ess dont supply anything to drop intake temps on the 540 e34 model charger kit as we found that inlet temps are climbing above 60 degrees even running only 6 psi of boost.. hmmmm

[stevie c]

as it stands..
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2439/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg/1/w480.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img368/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg/1/)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6585/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img509/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg/1/)

all intercooled and bypassed, off to the rolling road in about 20 minutes..

[MacR]

Minus the terrible hood scoop, it's not too bad.

[Binjammin]

as it stands..
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2439/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg/1/w480.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img368/lewiesblock005kv6.jpg/1/)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6585/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img509/lewiesblock006ow8.jpg/1/)

all intercooled and bypassed, off to the rolling road in about 20 minutes..

I really hope that scoop is just sitting there for the pics and isn't mounted, otherwise remove it as it looks goofy. Other than that the car looks pretty wild, I dig it.


Just not the scoop, are you trying to catch butterflies?

[BigM62]

Keep the hood scope only if you have a giant Wipple sitting on top of your engine.

[bmwm3n528]

So...Has anybody confirmed if a S62 crankshaft will work in an M6X?

[MacR]

No. It does not fit, but some machining can fix that. I had a custom 88mm (M5's are 89mm) crank made for ~2k

[Binjammin]

No. It does not fit, but some machining can fix that. I had a custom 88mm (M5's are 89mm) crank made for ~2k

Mac did you have a billet crank cut or did you cut an oem crank?

[xatlas0]

No. It does not fit, but some machining can fix that. I had a custom 88mm (M5's are 89mm) crank made for ~2k

Ah, I see. I was wondering about that. Glad we all finally have the answer.

stevie c-
I noticed that your charge piping goes pretty much where the braking system usually goes, at least in US-spec cars. Since you still have the ABS module in there, what did you do with the brake booster/master cylinder? I also spy no power steering fluid resevoir, unless that is what you relocated up to the front.

[stevie c]

I love my scoop! and thats an end to it!!!!, I know noone else does but look I converted the car (lewie) to a 2 door, it has a huge mitsubishi gallant rear spoiler, cheap glass bodykit, no trim no badges and is matt black!, has no interior, no silencers no cats, the wrong engine/trans/diff, is jacked up at the back and dropped to the floor on the front, the scoop (as far as originality goes at least) is the least of his problems!
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/3291/grind3903uc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/grind3903uc0.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img380/grind3903uc0.jpg/1/)

and thats the way I like him! :-)

as for all the braking bits, the only things in the way of the cooler pipeing were a few brackets, p/s reservoir and parts of the front bumper, the original brake ducts washer bottles etc were binned ages ago!, p/s reservoir I just moved over 1 hole on its bracket, you can see it far side, black by the abs crap :-), master cylinder is where it always was behind the abs

there might be a big zeemax widearch kit appearing on the back at some point too!.. only on the back mind you!
steve

[NikosX]

Oh dear. At least it will probably be going by so fast that a side-view will be virtually unobatnium.

[5271990]

I always wondered what an E34 would look like if you smoothed the back doors. Its not too bad.

Is there an electric fan infron of the radiator or just no fan? Not that you'll need it if you only drag race.

Whats the latest whp and charge temps like after the mods? Want to buy any more E34's to boost I've got a few spare ones :D

[stevie c]

lol you guys really dont like lewie do you!... ironic really as that was exactly what I wantesd to acheive, I cannot abide the std things!!, the only reason I built this one is because it came to me for free!!, the first things I did were remove all the wood leather trim and badges!! then broke the welder out!

I could go into the mods and really horrify you by telling you what cars some of his parts were robbed from (and they include rover 200, a reliant, some japanese and even some american parts)

5271990, yep he has a fan a pacet, biggest one they do, mounted in front as a blow through.. for reasons of extra space.. and though he's a strip car he's also a daily driver.. well not every day but.. fully road legal

bhp and charge temp.. dont know yet he's still being worked on at interpro at the minute.. but should be good!.. i'll keep you posted

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1579/grind3906fh3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/grind3906fh3.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img165/grind3906fh3.jpg/1/)

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/grind3906fh3.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img165/grind3906fh3.jpg/1/)

[Binjammin]

I always wondered what an E34 would look like if you smoothed the back doors. Its not too bad.


No, you're right. It's just bad enough.



lol you guys really dont like lewie do you!... ironic really as that was exactly what I wantesd to acheive, I cannot abide the std things!!, the only reason I built this one is because it came to me for free!!, the first things I did were remove all the wood leather trim and badges!! then broke the welder out!

I could go into the mods and really horrify you by telling you what cars some of his parts were robbed from (and they include rover 200, a reliant, some japanese and even some american parts)

5271990, yep he has a fan a pacet, biggest one they do, mounted in front as a blow through.. for reasons of extra space.. and though he's a strip car he's also a daily driver.. well not every day but.. fully road legal

bhp and charge temp.. dont know yet he's still being worked on at interpro at the minute.. but should be good!.. i'll keep you posted




I've seen a couple e34 2dr conversions, but the others sectioned the rear of the car a few inches. Basically shortened the car by taking a few inches out of the rear door area so it doesn't look so ... different. All in all it's not a terribly piece, I think it's funny you've got the "grind and shine" splashed on a matte finish car, I thought logos went out years ago.


Seriously though, of all that, lose the effing scoop. It's non-functional, so what's the point?

[bmwm3n528]

Mac did you have a billet crank cut or did you cut an oem crank?

+1

[stevie c]

No, you're right. It's just bad enough.





I've seen a couple e34 2dr conversions, but the others sectioned the rear of the car a few inches. Basically shortened the car by taking a few inches out of the rear door area so it doesn't look so ... different. All in all it's not a terribly piece, I think it's funny you've got the "grind and shine" splashed on a matte finish car, I thought logos went out years ago.


Seriously though, of all that, lose the effing scoop. It's non-functional, so what's the point?


lol shortening the car?.. I reckon that would take more than taking a few inches outa the back doors!!.. seriously how would you do that?, surely that would include shortening the prop, moving the rear wheels forward, basically cutting the entire back end off the car and rewelding it on!!!.. not an easy or particularly safe option.. not to mention that shortening the wheelbase would definately not help with straight line stability!..I welded the rear doors up to help with rigidity.. granted it is a marmite car

as for the matt black, 1, I like matt black cars.. this ones not my first nor will it be my last, it also offers great definition to the shiny logo.. trust me this car gets noticed.. and as a business advert thats what I wanted!.. whether its noticed for the right reasons is irrelavant :-)... as for things going outa fashion.. hmmm I'm not exactly a follower of fashions.. you should see me!! LOL

ok as the scoop seems to be the biggest bone of contention here, it does usually have a cold air duct running to the inlet, was just not fitted in the photo,.... also if i'm honest its partly there to annoy people.. its good at that right!... and the point? well there doesnt always have to be a point does there.. the fact that his big nose makes me happy is point enough

did no one notice the batman logo's on the wheel centres?.. humour!

:-)
stevie

[5271990]

:D I get it.

Most people just don't spend thousands on something thats supposed to be funny.

Reminds me of my old VW Bug convertible, widearch bright yellow with a 911 turbo spoiler stuck on the back and it was so low I couldnt drive it down alot of streets, lol.

Most people don't understand non essential body parts, do you have a neon skull for the gear shifter knob? :stickoutt

[stevie c]

yay!

surprising enough I'v not spent that much on it really as most of the work was done here, shifter would make you larf, its an empi one out of a beetle!

neon skull would'v been funny though!

cant take this stuff to seriously though, for one it will never be fast enough and ther'd always be someone who could get past me.. and make me look silly in a serious looking thing.... but for a funny looking car it goes well and surprises people!, bear in mind that the top speed in sport mode is only 120 mph! at 6500rpm!

[stevie c]

another update, lewie is now running a unichip, inlet tempratures right down, sadly though we are losing 4lb of boost through all the pipework and inter.... now working on getting boost back up, aiming for at least 10psi.. maybe 12 :-)

[NikosX]

Ill give you a dollar if you bump it to 24 psi and do ten quartermile passes back to back. :)

[stevie c]

lol, thats not going to happen!, :-)

[konarider98]

BUMP!

OK, Well my time has come to fully engage in this project. With a rod through my block and money coming my way(thanks liberty mutual) i am starting to gather parts, research, ask some questions, and research some more.

What exactly did you three (Mac,Stevie,bigm62) use for tuning in the end? How can i acquire such a tune? I was thinking the new Miller WAR chip, but then how will i set the parameters?

I think that's the only question i have after reading this thread over twice. Hopefully i will start a thread soon with my build. Wish me luck!

So i spoke with Mark D'sylvia over the phone for a bit today about this. It seems one Canadian just took one of his regular 404 ecu performance chips and ran that and was satisfied.

He is burning me a chip with about 8-10% more fuel than the regular m60b40 performance chip. i am going to be able to safely run that and then i am installing an innovate LM-2 to give him my air/fuel maps and then he will burn me the perfect obdI m62b44 chip with my modifications:redspot

[stevie c]

Kona! what exactly do you want to know? what sort of power are you after?.. frankly what sorta money do you want to spend! lol

I take it your running an m60 4.0..

I have to say mine is STILL not right, I have had issue after issue with it, being an auto makes it even worse.. being a 5hp30 gearbox makes it worse still..

well you've read what I have done up to now obviously, the car is now running about 12 psi of boost and WILL be sghowing in excess of 500 horse however.. the std ecu is NOT adjustable enough to do this, I have had to go for a full standalone omex 710.. ouch.. problem is that this doesn't have enough outputs to run the complex 5hp gearbox.. meaning the original ecu has to stay live to control the box..

which in turn means all the sensors have to be split 2 ways.. which in turn means the outputs become wrong (ie tps).. but theres no room on the throttle body to fit 2 pots.. so having to extend spindle and use a sierra cosworth one on top of the bmw one.. then theres the main loom to contend with..

do you see where this is going?... If I knew then what I know now I would have thrown an ls7 in with a th350 box...and had done with it

if you are not looking for 500 plus horse this wont matter at all.. dinan can sort you out a chip which will give you some extra.. let us know
Steve

[xatlas0]

Considering the S50 crowd have been able to do ~700 rwhp with the stock DME, (which is also a Motronic 3.3 unit) why do you say the DME can't be tuned to suit? A good OBD-I tuner could probably make it work, although you may need to get a higher-flowing MAF and have the MAF tables adjusted accordingly, given your psi levels.

[konarider98]

Swap to a getrag 420 Steve! then you can run motec, megasquirt, or any other standalones.

Update for me:

Got rebuild m62b44 NV cylinder heads for 300 off eBay, picking up a 100k mile core m62b44 NV with some bent valves for 300 this weekend. Then i start tear down and assessing the block and its needs. Most likely a full balance of rods, pistons and crank. Shaping up to be a beast. I'm not looking for loads of power but with the work i plan I'm hoping for around 320whp and the feel of a jet turbine(but with more torque:evil2)

edit: this is all on a 2800 dollar budget, if all goes as planned i will have enough left over for a new used getrag 420!

[xatlas0]

If it's got bent valves, then it probably has damaged pistons, damaged rods, or both. Just a bit of a warning.

[konarider98]

If it's got bent valves, then it probably has damaged pistons, damaged rods, or both. Just a bit of a warning.

Banking on clean pistons. Very slim chance of damaged rods with this degree of engine damage. Depends on how bad and at what speed the valves bent. the engine turns over but had very low compression due to bent valves(as im told) I am having the heads pulled by the dismantler to see how the block and pistons are. M62 valves are hollow sodium filled so when then bend bad at higher speeds they can snap and really destroy an engine. But thanks for the warning, i can use all the help i can get.

[David325e]

Swap to a getrag 420 Steve! then you can run motec, megasquirt, or any other standalones.

Update for me:

Got rebuild m62b44 NV cylinder heads for 300 off eBay, picking up a 100k mile core m62b44 NV with some bent valves for 300 this weekend. Then i start tear down and assessing the block and its needs. Most likely a full balance of rods, pistons and crank. Shaping up to be a beast. I'm not looking for loads of power but with the work i plan I'm hoping for around 320whp and the feel of a jet turbine(but with more torque:evil2)

edit: this is all on a 2800 dollar budget, if all goes as planned i will have enough left over for a new used getrag 420!

Haha its a BMW build, and you're a good bimmer guy. Part of me wants to call that you end up with 400+hp, a maxed credit card(S) sitting in a house with all the lights off eating mac and cheese:stickoutt

[quick93]

If it's got bent valves, then it probably has damaged pistons, damaged rods, or both. Just a bit of a warning.
If it only has bent valves I doubt there's much more damage beyond a few dings in the piston tops. I've seen several motors break either timing belts or a chain and not damage the lower end at all.

[xatlas0]

If it only has bent valves I doubt there's much more damage beyond a few dings in the piston tops. I've seen several motors break either timing belts or a chain and not damage the lower end at all.

That's what I'm talking about. Those dings can cause a lot of issues, to say nothing of the resultant bore damage.

[quick93]

That's what I'm talking about. Those dings can cause a lot of issues, to say nothing of the resultant bore damage.
The typical damage you see is a small rub mark where the valve hit, at least that's what I've seen. I had a forged piston that had a valve drop on it and put big gouges in the top. The guy cleaned the top of the piston up, threw on another set of heads and went racing again, never had any issues with it at all. I guess it would depend on the type of piston these engines have, I know forged are tough.

[xatlas0]

The typical damage you see is a small rub mark where the valve hit, at least that's what I've seen. I had a forged piston that had a valve drop on it and put big gouges in the top. The guy cleaned the top of the piston up, threw on another set of heads and went racing again, never had any issues with it at all. I guess it would depend on the type of piston these engines have, I know forged are tough.

BMW uses cast pistons and forged cranks. The "cleaning up" of the top of the piston would cause a different CR in that piston, which will cause an imbalance in the performance of the engine. Cast pistons will typically have much more of a "chunk" removed by a valve hit than a forged piston. I wasn't sure if the valves were bent due to piston contact or hydro-locking, so I tried to be as general as possible.

[quick93]

BMW uses cast pistons and forged cranks. The "cleaning up" of the top of the piston would cause a different CR in that piston, which will cause an imbalance in the performance of the engine. Cast pistons will typically have much more of a "chunk" removed by a valve hit than a forged piston. I wasn't sure if the valves were bent due to piston contact or hydro-locking, so I tried to be as general as possible.
In order to hydro lock a motor the valves would need to be closed and the piston would attempt to compress the water causing a bent rod. I didn't say I'd recommend cleaning up a piston, I've just seen it done but it was a forged piston so quite a bit tougher than a cast one. Most likely it had a timing chain failure or had the cams timed incorrectly to bend the valves, if he's lucky maybe someone had the chain off for some reason and didn't get it back on correctly so the valves bent on start up causing no real damage.

[5271990]

Kona! what exactly do you want to know? what sort of power are you after?.. frankly what sorta money do you want to spend! lol

I take it your running an m60 4.0..

I have to say mine is STILL not right, I have had issue after issue with it, being an auto makes it even worse.. being a 5hp30 gearbox makes it worse still..

well you've read what I have done up to now obviously, the car is now running about 12 psi of boost and WILL be sghowing in excess of 500 horse however.. the std ecu is NOT adjustable enough to do this, I have had to go for a full standalone omex 710.. ouch.. problem is that this doesn't have enough outputs to run the complex 5hp gearbox.. meaning the original ecu has to stay live to control the box..

which in turn means all the sensors have to be split 2 ways.. which in turn means the outputs become wrong (ie tps).. but theres no room on the throttle body to fit 2 pots.. so having to extend spindle and use a sierra cosworth one on top of the bmw one.. then theres the main loom to contend with..

do you see where this is going?... If I knew then what I know now I would have thrown an ls7 in with a th350 box...and had done with it

if you are not looking for 500 plus horse this wont matter at all.. dinan can sort you out a chip which will give you some extra.. let us know
Steve

E39 + scrap yard = 6spd manual :stickoutt

For cheapness I would of checked if goathumper (ryan) ever made a PnP megasquirt for the M60, adjustability and cheap!

Is Omex expensive, my laptop doesnt like the website?

[stevie c]

"Considering the S50 crowd have been able to do ~700 rwhp with the stock DME, (which is also a Motronic 3.3 unit) why do you say the DME can't be tuned to suit (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=919713&page=8#)? A good OBD-I tuner could probably make it work, although you may need to get a higher-flowing MAF and have the MAF tables adjusted accordingly, given your psi level"

Nice thought.. but the s50 runs individual throttle bodys... so a different ball game... also mines not on a motronic its a bosch.. tust me we have looked very very carefully at this over the last 6 months, no one has done this to a vortech blown m62 as yet...

as for changing the maf.. we have tryed different higher flowing mafs.. no good the airflow slows down so much at tickover it wont idle..

getrag box.. nice but the 5hp30 I have has been modded and rebuilt, and the prop has been specially made to suit my set up.. dont want to be redoing all that again.. , its also strong as an ox which is good...

as for the manual box, yeah nice enough, but I dont know if it will stick as much power as the 5hp, i'd also need to swap pedal boxes, get a very uprated clutch and .. remake the prop... also as this is a strip car.. the auto suits me better..

omkex 710 is a top of the range standalone, retails at about £900 and is very very good allowing trimming of every parameter..

if your only looking for 320 horse.. that should be easily achievable, mine ran 404 on 6 psi of boost... and that was the 4.0 m60..

simplest way of doing what you want is just buy a dinan or vortech supercharger system as a kit.. bolt it up and your away.,... me i'm just greedy and like to push a bit harder :-)

oh and as for rebuilding your m62.. I wouldn't bother.. they are sooo cheap to buy s/h complete motor.. better off just doing that!.. I paid about £500 for mine, verified milage and runs a treat.... you will easily end up paying more than that for a top end rebuild and gaskets.. just a thought..

[xatlas0]

Nice thought.. but the s50 runs individual throttle bodys... so a different ball game... also mines not on a motronic its a bosch.. tust me we have looked very very carefully at this over the last 6 months, no one has done this to a vortech blown m62 as yet...

as for changing the maf.. we have tryed different higher flowing mafs.. no good the airflow slows down so much at tickover it wont idle..


Motronic is a series of DMEs Bosch made. The US S50 has a single TB, and is effectively a bored and stroked M50. With the stock DME (the same one the E34 540 has) they have made ~700 rwhp. Another company state-side, called ICS, made an early E39 540 Vortech supercharged using the stock DME (OBD-II, Motronic V5 or something) and a FMIC, got ~420 rwhp, if memory serves. You very much can tune it to handle the power. As I recall, however, they had to switch to a Porsche 993 turbo MAF and make a new transfer function.

[stevie c]

ok.. well the one on mine wont play ball.., best we managed from it on the stock dme was 440 bhp, but topped out on the maf at about 5000 rpm.. we used a mustang cobra airflow, and a marcos one, but it killed the idle..

obviously i'll post the end results here..

oh and I was thinking of the 362 v8.. not the straight six.. they have separate tb's

[xatlas0]

ok.. well the one on mine wont play ball.., best we managed from it on the stock dme was 440 bhp, but topped out on the maf at about 5000 rpm.. we used a mustang cobra airflow, and a marcos one, but it killed the idle..

obviously i'll post the end results here..

oh and I was thinking of the 362 v8.. not the straight six.. they have separate tb's

Oh, you mean the S62? Yeah, that has ITBs. Sweet engine, as long as you don't mess with it.

As far as your MAF goes, I'd take a look at what some E36 guys have done. A real re-tune with another MAF would require a new MAF table, not just a scaler or other band-aid.

[Tomek]

Hey,

Having a M62B44 mated with M60 6-spd gearbox what should I do with the crank sensor? Would M62 DME take the input of the sensor mounted in front of the engine and getting the reading from vibration damper (probably need a M60 one)? Or is there an other way to go?

All that stuff is already in E36 chassis.

Much thanks!

[konarider98]

Hey,

Having a M62B44 mated with M60 6-spd gearbox what should I do with the crank sensor? Would M62 DME take the input of the sensor mounted in front of the engine and getting the reading from vibration damper (probably need a M60 one)? Or is there an other way to go?

All that stuff is already in E36 chassis.

Much thanks!

Which DME are you using? the M60 or M62 one? is the e36 converted to OBDI? if so you should be using the M60 404 DME and M60 engine wiring harness.

[xatlas0]

Hey,

Having a M62B44 mated with M60 6-spd gearbox what should I do with the crank sensor? Would M62 DME take the input of the sensor mounted in front of the engine and getting the reading from vibration damper (probably need a M60 one)? Or is there an other way to go?

All that stuff is already in E36 chassis.

Much thanks!

M62 DME is OBD-II, will not interface with E34 chassis, among other issues. This is why you need a custom tune for the M60 DME to suit the changes due to the M62. That way you can use the M60 crank sensor, harness, everything else just with the M62 instead of the M60.

[Tomek]

The car is an OBD-II E36 (3 series) and the DME comes from M62.

[stevie c]

if you changed for a 6 speed box you could mount a new crank sensor on the fron t of the crank, it would work..

as for obd1 obd2, m60/62...
thats what this threads about!.. I posted an entire series of photo's of exactly how to run an e34 on an m62 engine by changing the 62 engine to obd1 system... dme to use is the stock m60 one.. wont need any changes at all so long as you do exactly what I did!.. check out the video link mine fired straight up and runs very well on the stock one... course I am changing many other things which is why I have had trouble... but a std m62 is quite happy on m60 dme.. 100%

[BigM62]

if you changed for a 6 speed box you could mount a new crank sensor on the fron t of the crank, it would work..

as for obd1 obd2, m60/62...
thats what this threads about!.. I posted an entire series of photo's of exactly how to run an e34 on an m62 engine by changing the 62 engine to obd1 system... dme to use is the stock m60 one.. wont need any changes at all so long as you do exactly what I did!.. check out the video link mine fired straight up and runs very well on the stock one... course I am changing many other things which is why I have had trouble... but a std m62 is quite happy on m60 dme.. 100%

Or just use a M62 from a 1996 740i, which is OBD1/non-vanos. Just need to weld on a CPS on the TB.

[xatlas0]

Or just use a M62 from a 1996 740i, which is OBD1/non-vanos. Just need to weld on a CPS on the TB.

Why do you think that was the case? All MY 96+ cars had to be OBD-II, it was a federal requirement. Heck, you can ask the people with that car, it is OBD-II. The control unit is Motronic 5.2, an OBD-II only unit. If you look at the production schedule, there is a month gap when they switch over from the M60/OBD-I combo to the M62/OBD-II combo. If you look on Realoem, there were no E38 740s made in January of 1996. Cars made in December of 1995 used M60s. Cars made in Feb. used a M62 with the Motronic 5.2, which is OBD-II.

[BigM62]

Why do you think that was the case? All MY 96+ cars had to be OBD-II, it was a federal requirement. Heck, you can ask the people with that car, it is OBD-II. The control unit is Motronic 5.2, an OBD-II only unit. If you look at the production schedule, there is a month gap when they switch over from the M60/OBD-I combo to the M62/OBD-II combo. If you look on Realoem, there were no E38 740s made in January of 1996. Cars made in December of 1995 used M60s. Cars made in Feb. used a M62 with the Motronic 5.2, which is OBD-II.

Thanks for the info. I was going with what my X-tuner ( and the one who installed my M62) told me. And also that I am running OBD1 with only custom chip. I will check with my new shop. Thanks again

[stevie c]

yep, as far as I'm aware ALL m62 engines were obd2...

[BigM62]

yep, as far as I'm aware ALL m62 engines were obd2...

Yes, I stand corrected and my x-tuner stands corrected.

[moroza]

So, I've got both engines' timing gears, including cams, apart, and run into a major issue due to reading too far into swap notes from the first page:

M60 timing gear does NOT fit on the M62. Everything seems to be ok except for the cam sprockets. The M62 cams are shorter, so the M60 sprockets bottom out on the M62 heads. Furthermore, their center bores are considerably larger than the corresponding mounts on the M62 cams. Attempting to put M60 cams on M62 heads didn't work, either - the former have a considerably longer first bearing surface (between cyl 1/5 and the sprocket; the rest are fine), so with M62 cam bearing caps there's about 4mm of axial play. This is the first time I'm fiddling with timing gear like this, but 4mm seems excessive, no?

Cam bearing caps have to be matched to the head, right? Even if they don't in this case, using M60 caps still results in ~1mm axial play, since the play is apparently taken up by the heads. So to fit M60 cams on the M62 heads, they either have to be shortened at the sprocket end, or some spacers put on them or the heads and caps to take up the slack.

So I see 5 options:
1. Have the M62 heads and cam bearing caps, and/or M60 cams, modified to get the latter to fit in the former. Assuming that the increased lift is a good thing and won't cause interference, this is the ideal long-term solution, as I'd get to use the rest of the dual-row timing gear and covers, and have to modify little or nothing else.

2. Have the M62 cams and/or M60 cam sprockets modified to mate properly. If the extra lift is undesirable, this is the best long-term solution.

3. Use M62 inner cam sprockets (the ones that drive the exhaust from the intake) on M62 cams, but M60 outer cam sprockets (that drive the intake from the crank). Due to centerbore differences, they'd have to be modified as well.

4. Use all M62 internal parts except the tensioner guide rail and idler gear, M60 covers. The only modification would be to the cam sensor ring, which I can do myself. Can a dual-row rail and gear be used on a single-row chain?

5. Do what's been done here - use all M62 hardware including covers, modify the cam sensor ring, machine a spacer for the M60's cam sensor, and a bracket for the M60 crank sensor. Apart from the cam sensor ring, the machine work would have to be outsourced.

[moroza]

Bump? Any ideas for fitting M60 timing gear?

[stevie c]

dont bother, just use the m62, technically its not as racey, and its a simplex, but mine runs very quiet, and the performance is the same!.. oh and no the duplex from an m60 DOES NOT work on m62.. nice thought but catagorically no.. i tried it!..

Don't wanna be difficult fella, but I really wouldnt get into swapping internals on these, there are differences, if you want reliable and garaunteed to work results just follow exactly what I did.. you wont have any issues at all.

[konarider98]

Hey Stevie, how did you rig up your camshaft position sensor? i have modified the m62 CPS wheel on the cam to have one single pick up but im not sure of the orientation of the pick up to the timing of the engine? or is there even an orentation?

[stevie c]

no probs, again look at the picture, just use the m6 sensor in th same position, suitable packed to provide clearance for you "new" single point pickup plate.. thats it :-)

[konarider98]

Alright gurus,

My engine wont start. it cranks fine and almost catches but mostly stumbles trying to start. I cant for the life of me find out why it wont catch.

I used an autologic computer to read stats and pull codes.

from that information i fixed the throttle position sensor as it wasn't registering.

I tested the coils for the proper ohm resistance and they were all fine.

I THINK my crankshaft position sensor is in the proper place and spacing. i locked the fly wheels with the OTDC tool and then aligned it horizontally and then about a 2mm gap.

I also tried the stock 404 M60 Chip in the ecu instead of my custom tune.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

[moroza]

Alright gurus,

My engine wont start. it cranks fine and almost catches but mostly stumbles trying to start. I cant for the life of me find out why it wont catch.

I used an autologic computer to read stats and pull codes.

from that information i fixed the throttle position sensor as it wasn't registering.

I tested the coils for the proper ohm resistance and they were all fine.

I THINK my crankshaft position sensor is in the proper place and spacing. i locked the fly wheels with the OTDC tool and then aligned it horizontally and then about a 2mm gap.

I also tried the stock 404 M60 Chip in the ecu instead of my custom tune.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

Is it getting fuel? Any chance you could've put the wrong ignition or injector plug on the wrong cylinder (I did that with an M42 once and it did what you're describing - cough sputter kinda sorta ah...no)?

Also, was your car a manual from the factory? If not, what've you done with the TCM?

[MacR]

I assume you've covered the basics; spark, fuel, electrical connections, etc?

[328is96]

hello i have a 10/95 e34 540i and im looking to upgradeing my cams and i was wondering if newer 540 cams from m62 or m5 s62s wud work or what ones wud and i know dinan makes sum and think schrick does as well?

[xatlas0]

hello i have a 10/95 e34 540i and im looking to upgradeing my cams and i was wondering if newer 540 cams from m62 or s62s wud work or what ones wud and i know dinan makes sum and think schrick does as well?

Nope. Bore spacing is different, so cams sure as heck will not work.

M60 cams are a dead-end anyway, since the only available ones are in the range of 3k for a modest hp gain. That was the main point of this thread, actually, the most cost effective NA M60 gain is to change the engine to a M62 and get an OBD-I M62 tune.

[328is96]

ok thanks so how much wud the m62 engine cost and what are the hp and tq numbers on it and what year do they come from? this is alittle of topic but i was wondering how much hp n tq shud i have wen stock hp is 289 and tq is 295 and i have a k&n intake,dyno max race bullets exhaust dules with no cats with x-pipe, royal purpal full synthetic oil with px3 oil booster, 315 lsd diff from a 88-89 750il,pulsstar plus plugs,rebuit transmission. and i only have 117.000 miles on motor and its a 10/95 automatic 5 speed!

[xatlas0]

ok thanks so how much wud the m62 engine cost and what are the hp and tq numbers on it and what year do they come from? this is alittle of topic but i was wondering how much hp n tq shud i have wen stock hp is 289 and tq is 295 and i have a k&n intake,dyno max race bullets exhaust dules with no cats with x-pipe, royal purpal full synthetic oil with px3 oil booster, 315 lsd diff from a 88-89 750il,pulsstar plus plugs,rebuit transmission. and i only have 117.000 miles on motor and its a 10/95 automatic 5 speed!

In the future, please write as you would a school paper. It is difficult to discern your meaning from this mash of letters you posted. This is a general forum rule. I have no problem with occasional slips in grammar, but your butchering of the language is both difficult and painful to "read". People will be willing to help you more if you actually make an effort to write a legible post.

The cost of a M62 will vary consierably with mileage and overall condition. Look through the rest of the thread to find out more information, like power, torque, and applications.

Your M60 has likely gained no power. You listed many "mods" which have absolutely no bearing on engine performance. At best, then, you have stock power, assuming your modifications to the drivetrain system have not caused a reduction in power.

[328is96]

IM sorry but i believe that you are very incorrect! those mods do give my car hp and trq! and this is not english class so i do not know why you have such a big problem with the grammer oh my goush big deal! and i know for shure my m60 has more power then an m62 and also becuse what i have raced for examle a 95 m3 i beat it! and also ive beaten z28 cameros!and mustang gts,350z,i even got off on a 2000 6spd manul corvette thew 3rd gear. My car runs low 14s high 13s and the powertrain mods have made a big difference so you do not know whatyour talking about!:mad an wow your such a big man talking like that on the forums do you want to race me and find out that youd get smoked!! and your 94 540 is alot slower stock than mine ur 0-60 is 6.5 -7 sec range i have timed mine in the 5.3-5.5 sec range and your 94 has the Nikasil bore linings (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/BMW_M60#The_Nikasil_problem). promblem!

[ringle]

As on Springer....Ding, Ding.......;)

[xatlas0]

IM sorry but i believe that you are very incorrect! those mods do give my car hp and trq! and this is not english class so i do not know why you have such a big problem with the grammer oh my goush big deal! and i know for shure my m60 has more power then an m62 and also becuse what i have raced for examle a 95 m3 i beat it! and also ive beaten z28 cameros!and mustang gts,350z,i even got off on a 2000 6spd manul corvette thew 3rd gear. My car runs low 14s high 13s and the powertrain mods have made a big difference so you do not know whatyour talking about!:mad an wow your such a big man talking like that on the forums do you want to race me and find out that youd get smoked!! and your 94 540 is alot slower stock than mine ur 0-60 is 6.5 -7 sec range i have timed mine in the 5.3-5.5 sec range and your 94 has the Nikasil bore linings (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/wiki/BMW_M60#The_Nikasil_problem). promblem!

Wow. :lol One moment, I need to inform MENSA of your imminent arrival. Let me break this down for you, and I'll try to use small words.

1. The only engine "mod" you listed was an air filter change. Everything else, aside from the diff swap, is snake oil. Exhaust adds little to no power due to the excellent design of the original system. It can, however, reduce weight, as the stock system was quite heavy. With this in mind, your car is likely not making any more power, because you have not modified the engine to do so.

2. If you are tying to communicate with someone, and they have information you want, should you not speak and/or write in a manner that is easily understood? My "problem" with your post is that it is difficult to understand, due to the complete abandonment of any semblence of both structure and the majority of punctuation. It may as well be in french.

3. My, my. Bragging about "kills". How quaint. Kills, as a metric of power output, are pointless due to the wide variety of other conditions that come into play, such as driver skill. That is why dynos are the standard by which engine mods are measured against. They are not perfect, but they are (ideally, anyway) far less subjective than "hur hur, I beat a Mustang GT, so I must have more power".

4. The fact that you still don't know why people are switching from M60s to M62s shows that you did not actually read the thread. A fully-bolted M60 is less powerful than a stock M62. This is shown by many dynos, which are also in the thread, if you actually bother to read it.

5. The only mod that you have that made the slightest bit of difference is the 3.15 LSD. Heck, you don't even have an engine tune, based on your listing! That is effectively mod 1.

6. As far as my 540, you have no idea what the car is or what it can do, especially when doing something more complicated than going in a straight line. I would also like to point out that your car also has or had a Nikasil engine, and if you actually understood the nature of the problem, you would know that it means little to nothing anymore, due to gas standard changes. My engine still has excellent compression, making it just as good as any other Ausil M60.

7. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it. The fact that you didn't like my answer is not my problem. I'd also like to point out that this opinion has been shaped by facts gained over the last 10 years or so of working on this car. It isn't as though I posted it without thinking about it.

Now, so as to not pollute this excellent reference thread, if you wish to continue this exchage, please PM me. There are people that want to read this thread to learn about performing a M60->M62 swap, not about how you are pissed that your mods to do not add any power.

[328is96]

ok my appoliges im sorry your right i didnt know. so why is it that people are switching m60s to an m62 just the fact its more powerfull? so would that be a direct fit replacement? wouldent it be cheaper to hone and bore my original block and do porting and polishing and what not to my m60 motor?

[xatlas0]

ok my appoliges im sorry your right i didnt know. so why is it that people are switching m60s to an m62 just the fact its more powerfull? so would that be a direct fit replacement? wouldent it be cheaper to hone and bore my original block and do porting and polishing and what not to my m60 motor?

Yes, the M62 is more powerful. However, I was suggesing it for people getting ready to perform a M60B30 to M60B40 swap. One of the first posts in the thread asks the same questions you have. Like I've said, please read the thread. It should answer many of your questions.

In terms of the M60 work, it would be extremely expensive to do so. If it was an iron block engine, then it may work. However, because it is an alloy block with sleeved cylinders, you need a very capable, and therefore expensive, machine shop to re-sleeve the block. Then you need new pistons, new crank bearings, new rings, gaskets, and everything else associated with a regular rebuild, to say nothing of a custom tune. Since your car uses EWS-1, this is more complicated. In total, I'd figure about 6-10k on a hyped-up M6X rebuild, as I am fairly sure BigM62 would attest with his recent 4.8L SC M62 build.

[stupidovai]

Greetings guys.

I did the m62 swap and everything works perfectly, however I have some issues with overheating. I left the m62 water pump and thermostat, and as far as I know, it's electrically adjusted. Is there a way to fix that without putting the old m60 water pump?

[konarider98]

Greetings guys.

I did the m62 swap and everything works perfectly, however I have some issues with overheating. I left the m62 water pump and thermostat, and as far as I know, it's electrically adjusted. Is there a way to fix that without putting the old m60 water pump?

Use the stock m60 pump and tstat on the m62. mines works perfectly.

You do need to modify the corner of the m60 water pump to clear the edge of the head.

[jac1d]

I love my E34s but I'm curious about this swap.

Even if you do all the labour yourself and assign a $0 value to your labour/time, or consider it a recreational hobby, how much does such a swap cost? Does it make financial sense or is it mostly a labour of love?

-Jeff

[konarider98]

I love my E34s but I'm curious about this swap.

Even if you do all the labour yourself and assign a $0 value to your labour/time, or consider it a recreational hobby, how much does such a swap cost? Does it make financial sense or is it mostly a labour of love?

-Jeff

you could do it for under 2k (parts/material/supplies) if you are deal hunting.

[jfj707]

Was anything mentioned about which flywheel to use?

And am I correct in thinking that the B40 heads are used on the M62 longblock, or no? Not sure if there is a difference between the longblocks on the M62 and M62tu.

[xatlas0]

Was anything mentioned about which flywheel to use?

And am I correct in thinking that the B40 heads are used on the M62 longblock, or no? Not sure if there is a difference between the longblocks on the M62 and M62tu.

The M60 heads will not work on a M62 block, the bore spacing is different, as far as I know.

As far as flywheel, I'd go lightweight. Better response, bigger clutch, only real downside is cost. The M60 flywheel does allow for a bigger clutch than the E39 one, however.

[dmenheere]

bore spacing is the same ... bore is different. not sure whether heads will swap

Dave Menheere

[konarider98]

The m60 flywheel is about 9 pounds lighter than the m62 flywheel and its a larger friction surface. choice is clear if you cant get an alum ltw flywheel.

[jfj707]

OK, if the heads don't work, what was the consensus on the M60 double valve springs vs. the M62 springs? And cams?

[moroza]

What did you guys do for the oil filter housing? The M62's mounts to the fender, and there's no room in an E34 V8 enginebay for it.

[konarider98]

What did you guys do for the oil filter housing? The M62's mounts to the fender, and there's no room in an E34 V8 enginebay for it.

the m60 oil filter housing from the block is a direct swap. only lacks one mounting point on the upper timing cover.

[moroza]

the m60 oil filter housing from the block is a direct swap. only lacks one mounting point on the upper timing cover.

Sorry, I'm still stumped - can only figure out one of the mounting holes and that's not enough. Are there any brackets to help hold it up? Could you snap a pic of yours?

[stevie c]

I can't remember how I did mine, cars been away for ages, so cant even take a piccy, but as I recall I just used the one available mounting point, and have had no trouble!
stevie..

as an update after HUGE hassle from the gearbox mine now runs an omex 710, and 12 psi of boost.. projected power output is in excess of 500 horse.. of course I'll put up the printout when I have it!
steve