View Full Version : e36 to v8 engine swap
BackWoodsBimmer
10-09-2007, 01:22 AM
Okay guys.
found myself a really good deal on a e36 coupe with no engine. Things mint and cheap as hell.
now first off.
I've been thinking of putting in a 350 chevy enless you guys have any other suggestions and a camero manual trans. heres my questions
Should I go with the ls1 or ls2?
How much money (besides the cost of the car) is this project going to run me?
Will I still be able to have air conditioning?
Will the air bags been functional?
I'm not really experienced with engine swaps my dad has taken out an engine and trans on a clk mercedes before so i'll have his help.
is this a hard project?
Where can I buy the conversion parts i'm going to need (for example motor mounts)
I'm thinking i'm going to need the following
the engine and trans
new cooling system
new rear diff (probably limited slip)
mabey new gearing as well.
I'm really looking for good acceleration with a decent top speed
any input is helpful because i might go look at this car this weekend.
Also is hard to find e36's without engines encase i miss out on this one
LS swap isn't that difficult, just a bit time consuming. If you buy a conversion kit, plug and play harness, upgrade/replace clutch, upgrade suspension, upgrade brakes, and plan for misc stuff figure on spending $12-15k beyond the cost of the car.
BackWoodsBimmer
10-09-2007, 05:17 PM
LS swap isn't that difficult, just a bit time consuming. If you buy a conversion kit, plug and play harness, upgrade/replace clutch, upgrade suspension, upgrade brakes, and plan for misc stuff figure on spending $12-15k beyond the cost of the car.
15k? that much money i was thinking 2k
Volcom8190
10-09-2007, 05:27 PM
you dont realize how much work you will have to do..its easily atleast 15k, its possible to spend more....its not even close to plug and play everything has to be built custom.
Lee101315
10-09-2007, 05:28 PM
15k? that much money i was thinking 2k
:confused
What did you expect to spend? A LS1 is about 2-4 grand in good shape.You are better off buying a camaro, if you only want good acceleration and a good top speed. Its a much better suited drag car, and you wont destroy the drivetrain (in the e36's case) after a few good launches
Installing a LSx engine is an expensive solution to improve the E36's handling and acceleration...
A lot of people would like to do it ( like me ), but its cost prohibitive.
15k? that much money i was thinking 2k
I'm not sure if your goal is to just get the car running, and not care how it drives or how long it lasts....but to put it into perspective
Fuel pump, filter, regulator, lines, fittings....this can run over $500
New clutch, flywheel, throwout bearing, remote clutch bleeder......this ran $600-$700
Brakes (you want to stop right)...............start at $1k
Exhaust pieces (muffler(s) x-pipe or y-pipe, cat(s) etc...figure $500 as a low number
Suspension (coilovers, mounts, bushings)...this can get crazy :eyecrazy:
Poly motor mounts, transmission mount, subframe mounts, brake lines and fittings, clutch line/fittings, electric fan, misc electrical connectors, gaskets, fluids, oh and this is also a good time to replace belt driven accessories and various sensors since you're probably not 100% positive of their condition and everything is easier to do when the motor is out.
:embarrasm Oh man, I wasted all of that money when I could have done the swap for $2k :lol
:embarrasm Oh man, I wasted all of that money when I could have done the swap for $2k :lol.
Heck, my tires alone are up in the $1,300 range.
Well, the swap can definitely be done for less than what I've put into it. But everyone's goals are different. I was after something that can be flogged on the track, somewhat tame on the street, and had a "stock" look to it.
Making a car look like it came that way from the factory can be expensive. Making the car an all-around reliable performer can be even more expensive. Making as much power as Rao(or more), and having it all in a car that can handle it can be verrrrry expensive.
Faerus
10-10-2007, 03:10 PM
:embarrasm Oh man, I wasted all of that money when I could have done the swap for $2k :lol
Whoops, I've already spent more than that and my car isn't running yet! Where did I go wrong? :jedicryin I'd really suggest reading Vorshlag's whole buildup thread from the beginning as a ton of questions are answered throughout there.
Thaniel
10-10-2007, 05:27 PM
:embarrasm Oh man, I wasted all of that money when I could have done the swap for $2k :lol
:rofl: I sorry BackWoodsBimmer, but RAO that really is funny.
ellomdian
10-11-2007, 09:17 AM
Basically what the guys are trying to say behind their thinly veiled sarcasm is that even if you could find an engine and tranny for 2 grand (and thats a feat) there are about a million other parts you'll need to make it work. I would be willing to bet that I could get it moving for 4-5 grand, but not for long. And as for accessories - you'll have to custom mount everything.
Sorry dude, engine swaps are not for the faint of heart, thin of wallet, or lacking of wrenches.
And as for accessories - you'll have to custom mount everything.
Sorry dude, engine swaps are not for the faint of heart, thin of wallet, or lacking of wrenches.
I was able to use f-body accessories on my conversion no problem, but there are a lot of "little" costs that can sneak up on you in the project. I also forgot to mention that an upgraded T56 makes an awesome improvement. My 2000 unit only had 30k on the clock but it still had the classic "popping out of 3rd" issue. I went with RPM Transmissions, and not only is 3rd gear solid but the unit is just feels much more solid going through any gear.
Basically what the guys are trying to say behind their thinly veiled sarcasm is that even if you could find an engine and tranny for 2 grand (and thats a feat) there are about a million other parts you'll need to make it work. I would be willing to bet that I could get it moving for 4-5 grand, but not for long. And as for accessories - you'll have to custom mount everything.
Sorry dude, engine swaps are not for the faint of heart, thin of wallet, or lacking of wrenches.
+1 to this statement.
A customer recently found a good LS1 and T56 for $2500. That's a good price, but I have seen them cost as much as $4000 with low miles. The engine can be from a number of cars that came with the LS1/LS2 but the transmission needs to be from a '98-02 Camaro Z28 or Firebird/Trans Am. The GTO and CTS-V T56 is very different, and goofy. The C5/C6 T56 is a rear transaxle and not at all useful. The Viper T56 has a different engine bolt pattern. The SSR T56 is different again.
Luckily GM made a lot of these "F-Body" Camaros and Firebirds, and the used engine and transmission prices get better every day. But, this drivetrain is so good it is used in a lot of swaps and hot rods, so demand is still fairly high.
As for the stock BMW rear axle, well, we've been beating the hell out of a 3.91 LSD axle from a '95 M3 and it seems to "take a licking and keeps on ticking". With 315 R compound tires its getting some abuse, but we haven't done lapping sessions in it to really build up the heat (we are soon). The 168mm diff from the 318i/is shouldn't be used, but the 188mm unit from the 325/328/M3 seems to be strong enough for DOT tires and a stock 5.7L LS1, so far. With more power, track time and/or grip it might very well fail, but we have plans to swap in a stronger IRS axle in the near future to prevent this.
Our bare bones E36 LS1 kit (http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/product_info.php?products_id=141) (with all of the major fabricated parts) is $4K, and our more complete kit is another $3150 on top of that; add the drivetrain costs to that. Then add in any "Car Maintenance" costs, brake/wheel/tire/suspension upgrade costs, etc. It can total "a little or a lot" depending on your swap chassis candidate, goals, and any previous work done to the car.
In the end an LS1 swap done with a good kit and a used motor/trans should cost about as much as a turbo kit + bottom end built to withstand even a small amount of boost. The LS1 engine will be a hulluva lot more dependable and durible, and has a lot more power potential, in the end. You could recoup some budget from selling the stock drivetrain as well (we've even had luck selling stock 4 cylinders and automatics!) $10-15K is a good upgrade budget, but lots of folks are just going to use our "bare bones" kit and make/source/fabricate the rest to save some money.
From the sounds of your mechanical abilities, you might either need some more experienced help or a really complete kit. Or maybe you want to learn on an engine swap first hand. Whatever the case, $2K isn't going to get you very far. Just know that up front and you won't be surprised. :)
MWrench
10-11-2007, 05:16 PM
HI Fair:
The T56 body is all the same, it is just the tail shaft housing, bell housing, and input shaft that will change to match the engine combination and shifter location. The GTO and CTS-V has a shifter extension that moves the shifter location back quite a bit, but is the same case as the Camaro trans, perfect for a LS(X) into a E31 (HeHe)
The Viper trans is the one I use in my M6 with the LS6 engine because the shifter is further ahead then the Camaro/Firebird and I wanted the engine to be as far back as possible. Shifter comes right out the same hole that the original 280 trans shifter mechanism did. I had to make a spacer plate as the input shaft is longer but it bolts to the Chev bell housing. "made for Ford" T56 will bolt to the Chev bell housing as well but the input shaft is way longer.
Lots of options for aftermarket gear sets and ratios now. This was another reason I chose the Viper trans, 6th is 0.62:1 instead of the ridiculous 0.5:1 that is in the "made for GM" T56s.
HTH
The GTO and CTS-V has a shifter extension that moves the shifter location back quite a bit, but is the same case as the Camaro trans, perfect for a LS(X) into a E31 (HeHe)
Do you have any links to sites that illustrate how GTO/CTS-V handle this? I used an f-body transmission, however the shifter was far short of the Z3's shifter hole.
I used a McLeod shifter extension kit, along with a McLeod "S" shaped shift lever to bring the knob back about 6.5" to my shifter hole. Neither McLeod piece was a direct fit either, both needed to be modified to work.
Just go to http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp and download the service manual (available for free to download or you can buy it on E-bay for $10 :lol ) and you can see most of the different pieces. It is not inexpensive to mix and match, unless you have the parts lying around and even then they are all not fully interchangeable.
Don't even think about taking your tranny out and swapping the tailshaft. ;)
MWrench
10-11-2007, 06:11 PM
Do you have any links to sites that illustrate how GTO/CTS-V handle this?
If my friend still has his GTO trans out I will try to get a picture or two. Every now and then I get a trans that is out of a car that has been hit hard and the case is cracked, if I get a GTO trans I will let you know.
To do it new probably would be expensive as Rao says. I haven't checked.
No fair holding out on the parts hookup :)
garretvs
10-11-2007, 06:33 PM
Ok, so here's up-dated project costs for our E30-LS1. Subtract out costs for equipment like MIG welder, etc if you already have them. Also there are some new parts (rack, control arms, etc) that you may not need. We have some more $$ we gonna have to spend, but at least we're near the end.
Project cost
4000.00 on LS1 & T56; Foster auto in Portland, OR; both with @55k miles
300.00 on a used Lincoln MIG welder (infinite variable voltage & wire feed)
80.00 Argon/CO2 bottle
325.00 HydroBoost& Mustang master cyl www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
250.00 new reman steering rack www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
120.00 new control arms eBay
70.00 E34/M60 engine mounts eBay
20.00 material from HomeDepot for engine mount brackets
140.00 new '84 Camaro radiator, heavy duty www.jagsthatrun.com (http://www.jagsthatrun.com/)
75.00 to get end cap on radiator replaced at Seattle Radiator works
95.00 aft driveshaft flange to BMW diff flange www.jagsthatrun.com (http://www.jagsthatrun.com/)
225.00 Driveshaft modification at Drivelines NW, Seattle
50.00 Heat shield material from Summit
125.00 New clutch disc
70.00 New clutch slave cylinder
45.00 New clutch master cylinder
200.00 misc hydraulic fittings for brakes & power steering
95.00 GTO oil pan eBay
60.00 GTO oil pan welding
30.00 GTO oil pan patch material www.misumiusa.com (http://www.misumiusa.com/)
50.00 to get patch bent by press-brake
90.00 '99 Corvette headers eBay (this was a dead-end, had to get new headers)
275.00 Sanderson Headers
140.00 2-1/4” exhaust tubing and bends
80.00 Catalytic converters from www.flowmonster.com (http://www.flowmonster.com/)
95.00 Eledbrock Muffler
85.00 LS2 waterpump assy www.wegnerautomotive.com (http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/)
35.00 spacers for warterpump www.wegnerautomotive.com (http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/)
40.00 (2) sets of waterpump gaskets
54.00 LS2 serpentine belt tensioner www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
300.00 misc hardware
150.00 engine hoist
100.00 tranny jack
35.00 engine leveler
150.00 wire harness/fuse center to interface to PCM connectors C100, C101, C105
30.00 front control arm bushings
30.00 front stabilizer bar links
60.00 A/C hose & beadlock fittings www.docsblocks.com (http://www.docsblocks.com/)
Garret & Steve almost finished with E30-LS1
>> some previous owner had some trouble with the back-up lites powered off of the 7.5amp fuse 10, so he put in a 30 amp (with tin foil wrapped across both legs of the fuse). The socket for #10 in the fuse box is melted; going to try to use socket #9 (old motronic stuff) for what was on #10 and abandon old wire run. We'll see. <<
CEbeling
10-11-2007, 06:48 PM
15k? that much money i was thinking 2k
time to go home then.
Rob Levinson
10-11-2007, 09:03 PM
HI Fair:
The T56 body is all the same, it is just the tail shaft housing, bell housing, and input shaft that will change to match the engine combination and shifter location. The GTO and CTS-V has a shifter extension that moves the shifter location back quite a bit, but is the same case as the Camaro trans, perfect for a LS(X) into a E31 (HeHe)
The CTS-V does not use the T56. It's a ZF unit that is surprisingly BMW-like (as is a lot of the CTS-V).
The CTS-V uses an external shifter and linkage... which might make it easier for a BMW swap than the the rigidly installed traditional T56 shifter.
I'm quite certain of this... UUC makes a shifter and flywheel assembly for the CTS-V. :D
Captain Morgan
10-11-2007, 09:15 PM
I plan on using the T-56 out of the '05 GTO I bought specfically for my swap. From what I have measured out so far (or been able to with everything still in both vehicles) it seems everything will line up correctly.
GMW364i
10-11-2007, 11:09 PM
The CTS-V does not use the T56. It's a ZF unit that is surprisingly BMW-like (as is a lot of the CTS-V).
The CTS-V uses an external shifter and linkage... which might make it easier for a BMW swap than the the rigidly installed traditional T56 shifter.
I'm quite certain of this... UUC makes a shifter and flywheel assembly for the CTS-V. :D
" TREMEC T56 6-Speed Manual
The CTS-V features a precise Tremec T56 transmission that connects with the powerful LS6 engine for high-performance driving. It's fitted with a Getrag limited-slip differential and aggressive 3.73:1 final drive ratio, for excellent acceleration. Multiple synchronizers, a dual mass flywheel, a big 70mm driveshaft and heavy-duty CV joints help manage the engine's high-torque output."
http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/cpo/highlights.jsp?model=ctsv&year=2005
I'd don't know if I'd agree with your statement Rob, the CTS-V does infact use a T56.
MWrench
10-12-2007, 12:48 AM
Rob, if you make a shifter kit for the CTS-V then you should know it is a T56 trans!!
Maybe you were thinking about C4 Corvettes, they used a ZF S6-40 trans and it was not very good!!!
As I mentioned, the CTS-V and the GTO uses a shifter extension that mounts to the T56 shifter location on the tail shaft housing. They do this because unlike the Camaro and Firebird, the engine isn't and can't be as far back so the shifter had to be extended.
Even the Aston Martin DB7 Vantage and Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, 2001-2006 used a T56!!
HTH
MWrench
10-12-2007, 12:52 AM
I plan on using the T-56 out of the '05 GTO I bought specfically for my swap.
Could you post a picture of the trans with shifter linkage attached for JoeZ? I may not have time to get pictures for a week or so.
Thanks
Captain Morgan
10-12-2007, 02:30 AM
Could you post a picture of the trans with shifter linkage attached for JoeZ? I may not have time to get pictures for a week or so.
Thanks
my GTO is still together and running at the moment so pics wont happen from me for a while, but theres some decent pics on a pulled GTO drivetrain on eBay is that helps: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300158790633
The_Stig
10-12-2007, 02:57 AM
It'd still be expensive, but maybe look at the 4.4L V8 from the E39 540i and get its 6 speed manual tranny. At least its still a BMW engine and tranny:dunno
I was pondering doing this down the road, if not the 4.4, an S54 would work well too.
my GTO is still together and running at the moment so pics wont happen from me for a while, but theres some decent pics on a pulled GTO drivetrain on eBay is that helps: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300158790633
Thanks for the link!
I don't have any pics of my setup as it exists now, because once I got the puzzle pieces goign together I didn't stop to take pics.
Basically if you look at the McLeod extension kit below, I had to chop the the top of it down (eliminating the top hole) because it was hitting the console, and drill another hole underneath the bottom one. Then from there I was still a couple inches short of the shifter hole, so I used a McLeod "S" shaped shift lever, which was then modified a bit to clear the console as well.
http://hasanmotorsports.com/Images/InitialInstall/ShifterHole3.JPG
I can't find a picture of the exact shift lever I'm using on the internet, but this gives you an idea to the shape and proportions
http://www.slickcar.com/products/BT-1032.jpg
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