850i LS1 swap

[natehp]

has any body tried this?

[rao]

That sounds like fun :)

[Critter7r]

Anything is possible with enough money.
:think:

[PJ325i]

Cubic inch monster or two turbos . . . .mmmmmm

[Leo540i]

Cubic inch monster or two turbos . . . .mmmmmm

exactly what i was thinking :buttrock

[Fair]

Tons of room under that long, sexy hood. I want an E31 chassis LS1 in a bad way. :evil2 I always keep an eye out for a 6-spd 850i with a popped motor... since the V12 is $25K+ to rebuild properly, the LS1 swap really would be a LOT less expensive.

This is just one dead sexy car...

http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-17t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-17.JPG) http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-07t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-07.JPG) http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-12t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-12.JPG)
http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-21t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-21.JPG) http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-22t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-22.JPG) http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-38t.jpg (http://www.globalgarage.ca/images/cars/106-38.JPG)
(click to enlarge)

That car above has 18x11 rear wheels. :eek: And look at that factory V12 mess underhood - two mass air sensors, two COMPUTERS, two of everything. And it made 300hp.... yawn. Four cylinder Subarus make that power level these days. That big lump of an engine just begging to be yanked out, and with an LS1 it would probably lose 250 pounds!

more: http://www.globalgarage.ca/106.html

Turbos schmurbos... just build the motor BIG! Something in the 7.0L to 8.5L range could make 600-800 hp on pump gas with low stress. Using an LSX or Warhawk block, the sky is the limit!

[speedyhawk101]

I had a couple 750IL in Germany. Same V12 and yada yada yada. Gas guzzling waste of cylinders.

The LS1 in an 850/840 would be freakin awsome.

[Lurker27]

What an awesome project. I bet even the viper motor LA-V10 would fit.

[htrdbmr]

The only problem is the cost of the 850. I've drooled over them for years, but a decent one is $18k and up. It would have to be 427", and turbo'd

[JoeZ]

8 series + ls1 stroker + supercharger = :boink:

[Captain Morgan]

do an LS2 instead :) this way I have someone to chat with while I do my swap

[323I Junkie]

The V12 is one of BMW's pinnacles. Their V8 sucks in my opinion, compared to the LS1, so why take a perfectly rare 850i/6 in good condition, and put in an LS1? Why not take an 840? You are going to have to use the six speed transmission from the LS1 anyway (t56) and probably shove it in there.

If you really think the V12 costs 25K to rebuild, send it my way.
I will buy your 850i/6 with the popped motor. YOu take that money, go out and find a freid 840 and go from there.

Why destroy one of BMW's pinnacles? The v12 is beautiful. And if you think the 850i/6 is slow with the v12, dont expect much more out of a stock LS1. Most of its sluggishness its its 2 ton weight. Try regearing the V12 car. Try putting miller mafs in place of the factory mafs.

And the V12 is not a "mess" under he hood. Everythign fits beautifully. If you are afraid to work on a little stock wiring issues, how can you possibly have the fortitiude or time to do an LS1 swap properly?


Please, please for the love of god do not butcher the 850.
Please, just get an 840 and put a .030 over 5.7 in it, badge it as an 858, and go on with your life? Please?

Ive never seen such V12 hating. Have any of you ever ridden in a 350 horse 850i? They haul serious, serious asa and the exhaust note > anythign Ive heard from LS1's

Geez

You guys are killing me :(





Tons of room under that long, sexy hood. I want an E31 chassis LS1 in a bad way. :evil2 I always keep an eye out for a 6-spd 850i with a popped motor... since the V12 is $25K+ to rebuild properly, the LS1 swap really would be a LOT less expensive.

This is just one dead sexy car...

(click to enlarge)

That car above has 18x11 rear wheels. :eek: And look at that factory V12 mess underhood - two mass air sensors, two COMPUTERS, two of everything. And it made 300hp.... yawn. Four cylinder Subarus make that power level these days. That big lump of an engine just begging to be yanked out, and with an LS1 it would probably lose 250 pounds!



Turbos schmurbos... just build the motor BIG! Something in the 7.0L to 8.5L range could make 600-800 hp on pump gas with low stress. Using an LSX or Warhawk block, the sky is the limit!

[PJ325i]

Fair. . . I find the 850, you swap in a warhawk, and we commence the hunting . . .

[JoeZ]

The V12 is one of BMW's pinnacles. Their V8 sucks in my opinion, compared to the LS1, so why take a perfectly rare 850i/6 in good condition, and put in an LS1? Why not take an 840? You are going to have to use the six speed transmission from the LS1 anyway (t56) and probably shove it in there.

If you really think the V12 costs 25K to rebuild, send it my way.
I will buy your 850i/6 with the popped motor. YOu take that money, go out and find a freid 840 and go from there.

Why destroy one of BMW's pinnacles? The v12 is beautiful. And if you think the 850i/6 is slow with the v12, dont expect much more out of a stock LS1. Most of its sluggishness its its 2 ton weight. Try regearing the V12 car. Try putting miller mafs in place of the factory mafs.

And the V12 is not a "mess" under he hood. Everythign fits beautifully. If you are afraid to work on a little stock wiring issues, how can you possibly have the fortitiude or time to do an LS1 swap properly?


Please, please for the love of god do not butcher the 850.
Please, just get an 840 and put a .030 over 5.7 in it, badge it as an 858, and go on with your life? Please?

Ive never seen such V12 hating. Have any of you ever ridden in a 350 horse 850i? They haul serious, serious asa and the exhaust note > anythign Ive heard from LS1's

Geez

You guys are killing me :(


You need to spend less time in the conversions forum my friend. I and many others here could give a rats ass about BMW's sacred 850 :rolleyes

Just look at it this way, your 850 will be that much more of a collectable once we rape the one we find :cool

[323I Junkie]

The point was obvious:

If you are going to do mor ethan some hackjob swap, you are going to get into more complicated wiring than simply taking care of an 850

The 850 is amazing. Have you even driven one? And yes, it "only" makes 300 HP. But it makes it well, and the platform is at least 19 years old. With some updates, those HP ratings lean well over into 350's...pretty good for a 5.0 liter with cats.

The point about the Scooby engine is inane. Why dont you swap the v12 into the scooby with the same ratings, and see how they run?


I still cannot see the logic of ruining a rare, more desirable chassis, when all they want is the body of the car. The 850's components, other than its less than desirable and very complex brakes, are identical. So why not use a V8?


And how the hell does it cost 25K to rebuild an M70? I have two of them...and fully rebuilt with forged pistons will cost me less than 8K.


I dont know, "my freinds", it seems I have about as much business here as you, as I am putting those v12's
in F-bodies

[LexdiamonNYC]

The point was obvious:

If you are going to do mor ethan some hackjob swap, you are going to get into more complicated wiring than simply taking care of an 850

The 850 is amazing. Have you even driven one? And yes, it "only" makes 300 HP. But it makes it well, and the platform is at least 19 years old. With some updates, those HP ratings lean well over into 350's...pretty good for a 5.0 liter with cats.

The point about the Scooby engine is inane. Why dont you swap the v12 into the scooby with the same ratings, and see how they run?


I still cannot see the logic of ruining a rare, more desirable chassis, when all they want is the body of the car. The 850's components, other than its less than desirable and very complex brakes, are identical. So why not use a V8?


And how the hell does it cost 25K to rebuild an M70? I have two of them...and fully rebuilt with forged pistons will cost me less than 8K.


I dont know, "my freinds", it seems I have about as much business here as you, as I am putting those v12's
in F-bodies

blah, blah, blah!!!........whats the big deal?.......if they were talking about butchering an 850CSI then I would understand why you'd upset about it.....but they're talking about your everyday run of the mill 850's.....
I have been dreaming of this swap for awhile now......8er+LSx+FI+better suspension,brakes, CSI aero=:buttrock:redspot:alright:evil2:D:cool

[323I Junkie]

blah, blah, blah!!!........whats the big deal?.......if they were talking about butchering an 850CSI then I would understand why you'd upset about it.....but they're talking about your everyday run of the mill 850's.....
I have been dreaming of this swap for awhile now......8er+LSx+FI+better suspension,brakes, CSI aero=:buttrock:redspot:alright:evil2:D:cool


Well no I see what you are saying, but do you get what I mean about the 850 vs 840?
That was a nickasil engine too, larger chance of finding one blown than an m70 which other than the electronics was pretty bulletproof.

Hey man, LS1 is great. Ive thought more than once about putting one in my L7 to make an L757. Cheaper than a turbo and the sound is better too. Maybe the fuel economy might be ok too. But even with the 00 I had, the LS1 got about 18 in town and 25 highway. in a car 500 pounds heavier, you can expect to lose a mile to the gallon or too. Right now I get almost 19 with the m30 on a regular basis.

[JoeZ]

Maybe the fuel economy might be ok too. But even with the 00 I had, the LS1 got about 18 in town and 25 highway. in a car 500 pounds heavier, you can expect to lose a mile to the gallon or too. Right now I get almost 19 with the m30 on a regular basis.

I average about 13.5 overall :devillook

[323I Junkie]

If I had what is in your sig it would be very hard to drive it civily.

I need to look up your original threads. I want to see driveshafts, etc
I still cant believe that thing fits in there

[Joey Link]

I average about 13.5 overall :devillook

Why are you getting such poor gas mileage?

[JoeZ]

Why are you getting such poor gas mileage?

Cam, gears, heavy foot.....hell on the track I was getting about 6mpg:buttrock

I drive 25-30miles and my fuel gauge drops to 3/4 tank lol

[323I Junkie]

what kind of gears?

[rao]

My last LS1 swap car had 4.11 gears in a 3,100 lb car and I got 27 on the highway at 75+ and much less around town, like Joe :)

[JoeZ]

I'm just running 3.73's, but don't use 5th or 6th that much (although I had to use 5th on the straights at the Glen).

Remember my car is not daily driven, I only take her out when I want to have fun, and by fun I mean "drive it like you stole it" fun. Everytime I go out I kiss the redline with my foot to the floor in at least some of the gears ;)

[PJ325i]

Some :devillook

[speedyhawk101]

Joe your my hero!!!! Not really I just want your car.

[BigM62]

He-he,I love this section.I am all in favor of doing what he heck you want to do to your own car-just no bat mobile spoilers or chrome wheels that stick out of the tires.Oh,and I love BMW V8s.I just love small block GMs better.

[Fair]

He-he,I love this section.I am all in favor of doing what he heck you want to do to your own car-just no bat mobile spoilers or chrome wheels that stick out of the tires.Oh,and I love BMW V8s.I just love small block GMs better.
Agreed! :)

[323I Junkie]

Im all in favor of sending me your m70 and wiring harness and six speed

I do something odd, I pay

[speedyhawk101]

He-he,I love this section.I am all in favor of doing what he heck you want to do to your own car-just no bat mobile spoilers or chrome wheels that stick out of the tires.Oh,and I love BMW V8s.I just love small block GMs better.

WERD:buttrock

[BlownShovel]

My last LS1 swap car had 4.11 gears in a 3,100 lb car and I got 27 on the highway at 75+ and much less around town, like Joe

The Ls* engine family is efficient and makes great power. I tossing my TB motor out and putting an LS1 in my DD truck

[Billdo]

Have any of you ever ridden in a 350 horse 850i?

Nope but I will be riding in my 400+rwhp/rwtq E36 M3 next year. I'll let you know how much "serious ass" I will be hauling.

[LexdiamonNYC]

soooo, Fair....

have you looked into the E31 swap much?
differences between cars 850/840....?? diffs & suspension??
electronics?..
8ers are OBD1??

[Fair]

soooo, Fair....

have you looked into the E31 swap much?
differences between cars 850/840....?? diffs & suspension??
electronics?..
8ers are OBD1??
I am far from the E31 expert but here's what I know (or think I know, ha!):


Bimmer has a great E31 buyers guide in issue #56 Feb. 2006 (order the back issue (http://bimmer-mag.com/back_issues.html)!) and a Market Update in issue #67 June 2007.
840s are newer, less problematic (except for the potential Nikasil block issue with the M60 V8) but all had automatics
850s had 6-spd manuals, 4-spd autos or 5-spd autos - but most had the automatics
lots of threads here at bf.com about them (like this one (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415060))
Here is the E31FAQ (http://www.e31faq.com/) (which is awful)
The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_8_Series) is more helpful than the FAQ above


I think once that big lump of a V12 is removed and a svelte aluminum LS1 V8 is installed, the added power and lighter weight would finally make the E31 the true supercar BMW had once envisioned! :)

[323I Junkie]

Nope but I will be riding in my 400+rwhp/rwtq E36 M3 next year. I'll let you know how much "serious ass" I will be hauling.

Yes, but dow averages greatly increase the saltiness in commercial frozen mashed potatoes

[whiltebeitel]

Yes, but dow averages greatly increase the saltiness in commercial frozen mashed potatoes

Please explain?

[323I Junkie]

Its a tea in china thing

[ELIBEEMER]

I would never LS1/LS2 my 8...

This thread makes me puke!

[Fair]

I would never LS1/LS2 my 8...

This thread makes me puke!

Don't worry - no one in their right mind would tear into a nice/running E31 to do this swap.

All of the BMW LS1 V8 swaps I have been involved in or seen to date were done in non-M cars, mostly 318s, which were super high mileage/ragged out/not running cars that were headed to the crusher.

So, we're taking "crusher bait" and getting them back on the road, spruced up and driving again. They remain largely BMW, just with a heart transplant (and again, many BMWs have come with GM sourced transmissins for years) Some of these will be nicely done, fast cars in the end. These are the E36s/E30s that have been built or are being planned. I have seen no one seriously eyeing an E31 8 series, though.

IF.... big if... someone really wanted to make a really fast 8 series with an LS1 they should look for something doomed/headed for the crusher. A car that has a completely worn out drivetrain that would be impossible to restore for what it would be worth in the end... then go crazy with the LS1 or whatever engine swap save it from the crusher. I have seen non-running 850s in the sub $3000 range that were in need of massive drivetrain/electrical repairs that could be a great candidate.

Again: tearing into a running, clean and original 850i would be sacrilegious!

[ELIBEEMER]

....

Again: tearing into a running, clean and original 850i would be sacrilegious!


Well said....but the 8 is a very heavy beast!



http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/2084000-2084999/2084001_3_full.jpg

[Fair]

Well said....but the 8 is a very heavy beast!



http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/2084000-2084999/2084001_3_full.jpg
But is a sexy beast! I think with the big automatic and massive V12 removed (assuming its been turned into slag by some poorly trained, maintenance averse former owner!) that the LS1/T56 combination would in fact drop 200+ pounds off the car.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/142053457-M.jpg
609 pounds, engine and trans, complete and soaking wet. Weighed it in my driveway because I could never get anyone to post this data! The T56 6-spd transmission weighs 125 pounds of that (its fairly heavy but VERY strong - capable to 800+ hp with some basic internal tweaks). We weighed the M42 motor out of one of our swap candidates and will weigh the M50 motor out of the next one soon. I did see weights posted for an S50 (these have iron blocks) and it was within 5 pounds of the all aluminum LS1's weights we have taken.

So, since the LS1 weighs essentially the same as the M50/S50 motors (within 5 pounds) the V8 swaps don't add any weight over a 6-cylinder car. I suspect the V12 outweighs the inline-6 it is based on by ... a good bit. :) With a few other tasteful upgrades to an 8 series (lighter wheels, remove non-functional back seat, maybe swap in some fixed back racing seats in place of the 14 way electric seats that probably turned to crust on the worst maintained examples, some sound insulation replacement with modern/lighter materials, etc) you could get an E31 down under 3300 pounds? Might be fairly sprightly on a road course with say... a 700 hp V8. :D

For instance: we have lopped 400 pounds out of an E36 with just replacing the factory seats with racing buckets and removing the sound insulation throughout the car. And we've got a 7.0L LS1 motor being built with 700 hp on pump gas, very reasonably priced (about $8,500, complete) by a reputable LS1 engine manufacturer.

Just day dreaming. :cool If I ever see an 8 series up on blocks I always pull over, take pictures, and look for a phone number. One of these days I'm going to get the right car for the right price and save an E31 from an early grave, with our Frankensteinian ways. And look at BMW... they are "copying us" with this new V8 M3 coming out! :D

[323I Junkie]

Well its a good idea. Just one thing on the wieght though, the V12 is an aluminum block based off of the m20...so its not nearly as heavy as TWO m20's..


I agree with the up on blocks policy. Anything to save an e31 chassis...

Another swap Id love to see would be a 4.6 or 4.8 into the 840's....that would be a good ride to, and may give an LS1 a run for its money.


As far as 3300 pounds...anything is possible. While stripping the e30 323, we pulled a 50 pound mat ooout of the trunk...I was blown away. Also, I dont know if there are aluminum suspension compatibility from the M5..but theres some unsprung weight...aluminum driveshafts..lightweight wheels, although, maybe a pound or two a piece there..lightweight exhaust would be a big one, NIMH drag racing battery....I think 500 pound diet would be a good goal..1000 pounds it may feel very hacked, but if all out racecar is what you are going for...strip it too the max. I would love to see what an 8 would weight, chassis only, no doors, no sunroof, no glass

[Fat Tuesday]

Has anybody started an E31 LS1/6 Swap?

I would be interested in finding a little more information, reason being I found a 1994 840i with a popped motor and bad trans, but body and interior is excellent for the age of the vehicle, asking price is 2200.00, which is a little much, still in negotiations.

I thought about going back bimmer equipment, but my indie (snake) quoted me 12k for used stuff, with a 30 day warranty. Here is the real kicker, he would remove all the BMW engine/trans related stuff to make room for the swap and would not charge me any labor if he got the parts.....

I can do the LS-1/6 for considerably less money and get at least a two year unlimited mileage warranty on the hard parts.

So let somebody flog/flame or encourage me.....I tired of sitting on the fence

[LexdiamonNYC]

Has anybody started an E31 LS1/6 Swap?

I would be interested in finding a little more information, reason being I found a 1994 840i with a popped motor and bad trans, but body and interior is excellent for the age of the vehicle, asking price is 2200.00, which is a little much, still in negotiations.

I thought about going back bimmer equipment, but my indie (snake) quoted me 12k for used stuff, with a 30 day warranty. Here is the real kicker, he would remove all the BMW engine/trans related stuff to make room for the swap and would not charge me any labor if he got the parts.....

I can do the LS-1/6 for considerably less money and get at least a two year unlimited mileage warranty on the hard parts.

So let somebody flog/flame or encourage me.....I tired of sitting on the fence


well, i think it's fair to say..........................when are ya gonna start?:D
sounds like you got yourself pretty convinced of what you wanna do, so.........come on bud, be a pioneer!!! do it! do it!!!!

[speedster]

8 series is amazin, 8 series w/ a ls1. your going to get the die hard BMW lovers say why do such a thing. butif you have your heart set on it then go for it. i heard someone was suppose to make a kit for the e36/ls1 swap. see if you can get ahold of them and maybe they can give pointers. i say go for it!

[Le Nitro]

Hmm V12...or a V8, engine conversion costs more money...turbo V12???

[speedyhawk101]

You can DO-IT!!!!!! Come on man We would all like to see this happen. Well except for a few that can't stand the thought of American muscle contaminating their German enginuity marvel. I say take a great car that's lacking in the power and reliability department and make it one of the baddest cars on the planet.

This is deffinately next on my list. I just need to get my E30 LS1 done and then it's time to take a lame E31 and save it from a life over being overweight and underpowered.

[Fair]

Hmm V12...or a V8, engine conversion costs more money...turbo V12???
And turbo kits are so affordable for BMWs! :D

An LS1 swap could be cheaper... should be cheaper... plus more reliable, faster, better, lighter, and less heat soak prone.

[ThaDude]

God, I've been bouncing back and forth lately between V12(m70) and Ls1 for my next spring swap project. But dollar for dollar, you can't beat an Ls1/t56 combo.
The v12 is an uphill battle, those exhaust ports are incredibly disappointing, mods are expensive(if available), lets not mention alusil.
I still want to see weight for an 850csi/6 speed combo though.

[Fat Tuesday]

headed to the bank to get 12 brand new hundred dollar bills to buy the popped 840.....

then its off to Snake (my indie) to have the original bmw drivetrain removed...I will post some pix of the car this evening...I hope


now comes the tough part LS1, LS2 or dry sump LS7......

857ci
860ci
870ci

hmmmm having 500+ hp sounds appealing for a few extra bucks....and having a 870ci tailbadge sounds better

[LeftHook]

headed to the bank to get 12 brand new hundred dollar bills to buy the popped 840.....

then its off to Snake (my indie) to have the original bmw drivetrain removed...I will post some pix of the car this evening...I hope


now comes the tough part LS1, LS2 or dry sump LS7......

857ci
860ci
870ci

hmmmm having 500+ hp sounds appealing for a few extra bucks....and having a 870ci tailbadge sounds better


I'm VERY excited to see this project go forward.....

[speedyhawk101]

Fat Tuesday, Your my new Hero!!!!!!!

[323I Junkie]

headed to the bank to get 12 brand new hundred dollar bills to buy the popped 840.....

then its off to Snake (my indie) to have the original bmw drivetrain removed...I will post some pix of the car this evening...I hope


now comes the tough part LS1, LS2 or dry sump LS7......

857ci
860ci
870ci

hmmmm having 500+ hp sounds appealing for a few extra bucks....and having a 870ci tailbadge sounds better


If you are going to play that game, how about an 888?

[323I Junkie]

Fat Tuesday, you may be very well saving this e31 from the junkyard. Congratulations. While i would love to see a 4.6 or 4.8 in there, I fully support the LSx in this application. Why dont you just do a 5.7 for now? There is so much FI support for that motor its rediculous, and many NA mods if you want to stick with BMW's NA rev thing.

I gather that car never had clutch pedals. That is your ugliest challenge. Id rather do the swap with wiring than put in clutch pedals.

Since you are goign V8 to V8, You should be able to even retain full function of the tach, speedo, and OBC. The OBC runs off of an RPM and PW data from either the harness or Ecm depending on year. BY carefully removing the ecm and all wiring, you whould be able to pull a PW referecne off of the LS1 computer as well as a tach signal. I wish I was further along in signal processing,but I am not. I know it can be done, but dont know how to do it. If you found an EE on thos board who was adept at signals, they could perhpas build a buffer to hange the PW and tach signal to relevant to the OBC> You could probably even retain the interlock function of the OBC. Either that or remove all traces of it and put a multifunction display panel in there

[SDKmann]

The things people consider to be "good ideas" never stops amazing me.

[MWrench]

Clutch pedal on the E31 is the easiest part!! All you need is the pedal box (and pedals) from a E34 manual trans model, it is a direct bolt in. You must use the complete box as the over center spring attachment (for the clutch pedal) is missing on the E31 auto pedal box.

[Fat Tuesday]

The things people consider to be "good ideas" never stops amazing me.

Don't get what you are tryin to convey....

[Fat Tuesday]

As for trans, I was debating a slush box but that takes the fun factor out, I have access to a rolled E34 w/ a stick and I will be canibalizing the pedal box (complete) and other various items required.

This will not be the first Bimmer I have built, but it will be the first hybrid.

Over the past twenty years I have built the following and have had to do alot of modifying.

My first BMW was a E30 eta that we installed a 325I head on and updated the computers. (1987)

The second was an E28 that was upgraded to Dinan specs (1989)

Third was a E21 that was origianally had a 1.8 liter, did the 2 liter swap with dual side draft webers and schrick cam......that boat became a U-Boat after our area was hit by hurricane Isabell in 2003 (1997)

The last one was a E30 Vert, this was the most mild one to date, I only upgraded the computers, injectors and plumbing in & out of the engine. (2005)

I have gotten tired of staying in the realm of Bimmer parts, they are expesive and you look at the cost vs. hp figure and building a hybrid is the vest way to go.

So I believe that since I built 4 Bmw's using Bmw parts, it gives me a pass on the 5th one and shes gonna be a monster.....

[M50PoweredE30]

Gives me an idea....

[autophile]

Fat Tuesday, Your my new Hero!!!!!!!

+1

[speedyhawk101]

The things people consider to be "good ideas" never stops amazing me.

Purist ALERT, Purist ALERT!!!!!!!!!

Stop Crying Dude and go away. How's that "Good Idea" for you?

[323I Junkie]

Purist ALERT, Purist ALERT!!!!!!!!!

Stop Crying Dude and go away. How's that "Good Idea" for you?

Well, I think what is going on right here is good, but I think you are being a dick. It never hurts to be a decent person, of course, you are hiding behind your computer screen

[sjpgoalie]

Waste of a V12.

[323I Junkie]

Waste of a V12.



Its not a V12. Hes talking about a 840

[renemesis]

Just put the V12 into a Vette.:D

[323I Junkie]

Just put the V12 into a Vette.:D


Or an 84 Trans Am with modified 1LE suspension :devilook:

[LeftHook]

Just put the V12 into a Vette.:D

:confused

Or just strap a boat anchor to the hood and make the exhaust sound like a v6.



Same result, just a lot cheaper.

[e31bubba]

I got to stop reading this thread it's making me think to much LOL especially since My mechanic has already done a ls1 swap into a e36 and he thinks it should be doable in the e31

[323I Junkie]

:confused

Or just strap a boat anchor to the hood and make the exhaust sound like a v6.



Same result, just a lot cheaper.

:rolleyes:

[LeftHook]

:rolleyes:

I see your :rolleyes and raise you a http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/kouryuu67/av-gif/bigshift.gif

[garretvs]

lol...this thread cracks me up. Fat Tuesday- you're the man. Good Luck. Hit us up if you have any questions. Oh, and you really don't have to justify yourself to a bunch of bmw "purist" wankers with their panties all up in a bunch. For all I care you could have done this to an 850 and it it would have been just as cool! Half the fun is watching all the dreamers come out of the woodwork with their 1.8L motors and chopped off trunks (and seeing who knows what's really up)... Please throw a "kompressor" onto it for good measure!!

:stickoutt

[BigM62]

Just put the V12 into a Vette.:D

That is like putting Farrah Facett's brain into Stephen Hawkin's head.I would rather have it the other way around.:stickoutt

[323I Junkie]

lol...this thread cracks me up. Fat Tuesday- you're the man. Good Luck. Hit us up if you have any questions. Oh, and you really don't have to justify yourself to a bunch of bmw "purist" wankers with their panties all up in a bunch. For all I care you could have done this to an 850 and it it would have been just as cool! Half the fun is watching all the dreamers come out of the woodwork with their 1.8L motors and chopped off trunks (and seeing who knows what's really up)... Please throw a "kompressor" onto it for good measure!!

:stickoutt

Just because you like and appreciate the V12 and understand its potential does not make you a purist. It makes you like V12's. Perhpas I have more repsect for people willing to take on the challenge of the V12 than to sell out to the lowest bidder.

[Shockwave179]

Perhpas I have more repsect for people willing to take on the challenge of the V12 than to sell out to the lowest bidder.

Let me get this straight...Fat Tuesday is a sellout because he wants to drop an LS1 into his car...

The LS1 is a great motor with a ton of potential. There are guys running local here that did a simple cam swap (stock heads) and spray that make over 600rwhp. If you had one like you claim, then you should know this already.

At the end of the day it's his car. He's going to do what he wants to do with it and there isn't anything any of the purist people in this thread can do about it, so just drop it.

[speedyhawk101]

:confused

Or just strap a boat anchor to the hood and make the exhaust sound like a v6.



Same result, just a lot cheaper.

:lol

[Fat Tuesday]

LOL....come on guys this car was headed for the crusher and I saved a beautiful example of an E31.

So what if its having a heart transplant, at least it will still have a pulse.....

Would it make everybody feel better if I said I was going to transplant a M10 engine w/ 5 speed so the old gal can keep her soul?

PIx of the cannibalization coming soon "insert evil laugh here" every seen anybody take an oxy-acetylene torch to an E31....

[323I Junkie]

Let me get this straight...Fat Tuesday is a sellout because he wants to drop an LS1 into his car...
Literacy is your friend
The LS1 is a great motor with a ton of potential. There are guys running local here that did a simple cam swap (stock heads) and spray that make over 600rwhp. If you had one like you claim, then you should know this already.
And? Your point? Thats exactly what I was saying. Anyone can make power that way, and it makes a lot of sense to do an 840 swap, but for the 850, there is a lot that can be done to it. Hence the sellout option. I didnt say he was a sellout, but going to the easy rough option when the V12 is there..too easy. I dont know, gues I have been around enough 800 to 1000 HP cars that thats just not what its about anymore. If it was, I'd be on an LS1 forum right now

At the end of the day it's his car. He's going to do what he wants to do with it and there isn't anything any of the purist people in this thread can do about it, so just drop it.
Just drop it eh, newbie? You're a funny man


:cool

[LexdiamonNYC]

:cool

imho, the only BMW V12(that's somewhat readily available) that's worth keeping is the S70B36 in the CSI........otherwise,as a bargain horsepower shopper when you do some numbers it only makes sense to drop an LSx(Built or FI) in an E31 that was saved from the crusher, and even one with a fully working M70 .......

the amount of $$$$$$$$$+ time and patience that it takes to maintain and build a 500-650 whp M70
-vs-
the amount of $$$+ time and patience that it would take to maintain and build a 500-650 whp LSx


it just makes sense, not to mention the LSx is also lighter than the M70, and weight saving is always a good thing in my book......looking forward to seeing this project:D:thumbup::thumbup:

[e31bubba]

GO for it I"M all for an e31 swap. and i'm an e31 owner. I know alot of people don't like my choice of interior or diablo doors for my ride but hey I like them do what you want as long as your happy with it

[320ipyro]

i would love to see an e31 with a viper v10... that would kick so much ass, but im a mopar guy so im biased. i would love to see an ls7 in one too. hot rod put one in a solstice. such a sick car. i need to do cool projects.

[323I Junkie]

imho, the only BMW V12(that's somewhat readily available) that's worth keeping is the S70B36 in the CSI........otherwise,as a bargain horsepower shopper when you do some numbers it only makes sense to drop an LSx(Built or FI) in an E31 that was saved from the crusher, and even one with a fully working M70 .......

the amount of $$$$$$$$$+ time and patience that it takes to maintain and build a 500-650 whp M70
-vs-
the amount of $$$+ time and patience that it would take to maintain and build a 500-650 whp LSx


it just makes sense, not to mention the LSx is also lighter than the M70, and weight saving is always a good thing in my book......looking forward to seeing this project:D:thumbup::thumbup:


its not like I havent researched this and I agree with you, the LSx does make power easier. But who the heck buys an e31 for bargains? The car itself i expensive, from paint to leather to electrical and climate control.

Like I said, the 500-1000 Horse LSx thing is getting old. I have seen some 400-500 WHP V12's that are simply more interesting. Ive already gone the route of the LSx, and , if my 535 ever blows..may do the 557 thing. Ive also contemplated the 757. Im just saying in the case of the V12, theres a lot of overlooked performance options.

Lastly, they arent that heavy. Everyone keeps forgetting thats an aluminum engine.It has a very strong bottom end: stronger crank and rods than the LSX. It has V12 operating dynamics: broader torque urve.


You cant always judge a car by the RWHP. The driving dynamics and overall feel of the car say alot. Maybe Im getting old. Shoving the most powerful engine in the wackiest car is always fun but its getting old. Damn I think Ive seen it all, from chevy V6's in Ferraris :eek: to big block mopars in Panteras. Im just tired of it. This is coming from someone with a 468 in one car and a 454 in his 4WD.

I fully support the 840 LSX swap, its jus thte V12 seems like a sad waste. Its a rare and cool car that will never ome around again, unless BMW builds a 660 which I doubt they will do with the Alpina and M6 out there. To me it would be similar to putting an LSx in a Z8. Why? Other than just to piss people off? And if thats your only motive in life, you need a shrink.


I used to dis on the BMW 4.4 for instance, and then came the day I ran a cammed camaro LS1 against a 740 sport on the freeway and got stopped in my tracks.Could make no headway. Wasnt my own creation either, built by a reputable speed shop. Not saying my stuff isnt good either, just wasnt my choice of cam...Id be interested to see a non turbo 5.7 NA run against something modern and hot from BMW like a 4.6 or 4.8 in the e31, same chassis, different engines. Im sure soon enough there will be enough for comparison. Expensive build for the 4.8 though

And finally, ive been around LS1's since the beginning. I was rebuilding them at GM in 1998, so Ive seen one or two :shifty: . DOne a thing or two since then. Ive yet to see a 5.7 with a cam and any sane amount of nitrous do 600 on the wheels. Im calling a big shifty on that clame. Either there was major headwork there or major nitrous--too much nitrous for any amount of durability if the owner ever used it since then. Nitrous is BS anyway. Who here actually drag races their BMW? And if they do, why arent they running 7.0 Liter LSx or BBC with live rear axle conversions?

[Shockwave179]

Literacy is your friend

The amount of literary mistakes you have made in your posts is laughable compared to mine so don’t lecture me.


Anyone can make power that way

Yeah that’s basically implying the concept of “selling out” that’s why I said it.


but going to the easy rough option when the V12 is there..too easy. I dont know, gues I have been around enough 800 to 1000 HP cars that thats just not what its about anymore. If it was, I'd be on an LS1 forum right now

That’s your personal opinion, fine you can state it but there isn’t a reason to keep repeating it, that’s why I said drop it. Obviously he’s going through with it since he said he’s going to post pictures.


Just drop it eh, newbie? You're a funny man

Pulling the newbie card eh? I’ve had a BMW for at least as long as you’ve been on this forum.


its not like I havent researched this and I agree with you, the LSx does make power easier. But who the heck buys an e31 for bargains? The car itself i expensive, from paint to leather to electrical and climate control.

I don’t think the swap was meant to be “cheap” as your implying but more along the lines of unique and fun. Isn’t the point of a car project to create something unique, something for ones self that they will enjoy working on and driving?


Like I said, the 500-1000 Horse LSx thing is getting old. I have seen some 400-500 WHP V12's that are simply more interesting. Ive already gone the route of the LSx, and , if my 535 ever blows..may do the 557 thing. Ive also contemplated the 757. Im just saying in the case of the V12, theres a lot of overlooked performance options.

Don’t get me wrong I love V12’s but there’s a reason why people are doing LSx swaps in the first place. If you think its getting old like I said before that’s a personal opinion. It’s not going to stop people from doing it so I really don’t understand all the personal fuss.



Other than just to piss people off? And if thats your only motive in life, you need a shrink.

I highly doubt anyone does an LSx swap just to piss people off. Although purist reactions tend to be hilarious and entertaining though.


I used to dis on the BMW 4.4 for instance, and then came the day I ran a cammed camaro LS1 against a 740 sport on the freeway and got stopped in my tracks.Could make no headway. Wasnt my own creation either, built by a reputable speed shop. Not saying my stuff isnt good either, just wasnt my choice of cam...

lol are you kidding me? We used to own an E38 740i and my basically stock Z28 would shit stomp it. The M44 is only rated at 28x rwhp with 32x ft lbs of torque, not to mention E38’s weigh almost 4300lbs where as an FBody weighs 3400lbs.


Ive yet to see a 5.7 with a cam and any sane amount of nitrous do 600 on the wheels. Im calling a big shifty on that clame. Either there was major headwork there or major nitrous--too much nitrous for any amount of durability if the owner ever used it since then. Nitrous is BS anyway.

Hellion LSx Cam Specs: 243/247 -.629/.629 - 112 lsa
For comparison the famed T-Rex LSx Cam Specs: 242/248 - .608/.612 - 110 lsa

The car I was referring too made 425 rwhp 392 ft lbs with the Hellion cam N/A

Then referring to the nitrous, I want to say it was a 150 shot which isn’t unreasonable for an LS1. Nitrous isn’t bullshit either it’s a legitimate form of forced induction, used properly and responsibly can help tremendously :rolleyes

[323I Junkie]

The amount of literary mistakes you have made in your posts is laughable compared to mine so don’t lecture me.

Literacy refers more to the comprehension of the written word and not on the grammar






Pulling the newbie card eh? I’ve had a BMW for at least as long as you’ve been on this forum.

You may be the original owner of a 2002, but that doesnt keep you from being a newbie on a discussion forum.


I don’t think the swap was meant to be “cheap” as your implying but more along the lines of unique and fun. Isn’t the point of a car project to create something unique, something for ones self that they will enjoy working on and driving?

Agreed





lol are you kidding me? We used to own an E38 740i and my basically stock Z28 would shit stomp it. The M44 is only rated at 28x rwhp with 32x ft lbs of torque, not to mention E38’s weigh almost 4300lbs where as an FBody weighs 3400lbs.

Refer to the above post and also to the fact that it was a freeway pull. Your posts seem very car and driver oriented



Hellion LSx Cam Specs: 243/247 -.629/.629 - 112 lsa
For comparison the famed T-Rex LSx Cam Specs: 242/248 - .608/.612 - 110 lsa

The car I was referring too made 425 rwhp 392 ft lbs with the Hellion cam N/A

And no reprogramming, lth, or any other mods? Seriously..those engines put down 280 to 319 SAE stock..I think someone is yanking your chain on either the 600 HP or or the amount of mods. If a 150 shot and a cam were the only two mods necessary to put down a reliable 600 WHP noone would be buying superchargers or turbos for 7 or 8 grand

Then referring to the nitrous, I want to say it was a 150 shot which isn’t unreasonable for an LS1. Nitrous isn’t bullshit either it’s a legitimate form of forced induction, used properly and responsibly can help tremendously :rolleyes
Roll your eyes all you want, its a highly consumable engine steroid that is very expensive to make safe if used in large amounts. It is great for drag racing but once again I find it old



:)

[320ipyro]

:deadhorse:

[speedyhawk101]

Well, I think what is going on right here is good, but I think you are being a dick. It never hurts to be a decent person, of course, you are hiding behind your computer screen

Yeah I'm a bit of a dick, but I'm that way in person too. Not that it's something to brag about. But I promise you I say nothing on here I wouldn't say in person. I hide behind nothing.

OK on with the conversion!!!!!!

[323I Junkie]

Yeah I'm a bit of a dick, but I'm that way in person too. Not that it's something to brag about. But I promise you I say nothing on here I wouldn't say in person. I hide behind nothing.

OK on with the conversion!!!!!!

:drink1

[RANE2001]

I dont know about a swap as I love to raise my hood and look at all 12 intakes. But good luck to you guys and keep us updated. I would just love to twin turbo my b itch if I end up keeping it.

[speedyhawk101]

I dont know about a swap as I love to raise my hood and look at all 12 intakes. But good luck to you guys and keep us updated. I would just love to twin turbo my b itch if I end up keeping it.

Sweet lookin ride!!!! Can we start with yours since it's sooooo clean lookin.:D

[speedyhawk101]

i would love to see an e31 with a viper v10... that would kick so much ass.

that would be cool too!

[lilflipM42]

does anyone know any shops that will do this for my car? Shops in NoVA won't do it.

[JustinCSVT]

I think a bone stock LS7 or LS7 clone(sleeved LS2 w/ported L92 and small cam) would be perfect for a big cruiser like the 8-series. Not too much thump to give away your secret but enough to blow people out of the water.

[whiltebeitel]

I think a bone stock LS7 or LS7 clone(sleeved LS2 w/ported L92 and small cam) would be perfect for a big cruiser like the 8-series. Not too much thump to give away your secret but enough to blow people out of the water.


I vote turbo LS1. The LS7, with its dry-sump abilities, should be saved for something that can actually pull significant "g"s There's surely enough room for the turbos, and turbos fit the GT profile of a 8 series better, IMO.

[323I Junkie]

Do you know hard an 8 series can be pushed?

[garretvs]

Turbos are A LOT more work + money but if he's game for that then more power to him. I got the idea that a shop was doing this?? Is that correct or not?

[JustinCSVT]

I vote turbo LS1. The LS7, with its dry-sump abilities, should be saved for something that can actually pull significant "g"s There's surely enough room for the turbos, and turbos fit the GT profile of a 8 series better, IMO.
You can put the regular oiling sytem onto the LS7.

[Derek 350i]

Great project, the e31 looks as fresh today as it did when it came out.

If I could find one of these for a couple grand I would be all over it. You will find the Conversions and Hybrids section on www.LS1tech.com a huge help with any of your engine/trans questions.

Best of luck.

D

[garretvs]

Great project, the e31 looks as fresh today as it did when it came out.

If I could find one of these for a couple grand I would be all over it. You will find the Conversions and Hybrids section on www.LS1tech.com (http://www.LS1tech.com) a huge help with any of your engine/trans questions.

Best of luck.

D

Absolutely!! This is an excellent resource and has lots of other people's sick projects as well

[garretvs]

Garret & I would like to do an LSx-E31 also -- I down-loaded the BMW 850 Electrical Trouble Shooting Manual (http://wuffer.net/MyFiles/ETM91.pdf) to take a look at its systems integration issues with a GM PCM. I noted with some trepidation that the 850 manual is 450+ pages (the E30 manual is only about 80 pages; only about eight wires in the host E30 need to be interfaced). The E31 swap may be easy from a mechanical standpoint: lots of room, etc. But the electrical integration could be difficult since the E31 is so much more complex. More study is needed.

[323I Junkie]

I have been studying it in reverse for a while. However, it is not as bad as it first seems. It is simply a newer BMW.

Do you have much expereince with creating dedicated signal conditioning modules. I do not. That is what is really needed. I need to find a controller that has code available to do signal translation. Liek serial to I2C and etc.

[Fair]

Garret & I would like to do an LSx-E31 also -- I down-loaded the BMW 850 Electrical Trouble Shooting Manual (http://wuffer.net/MyFiles/ETM91.pdf) to take a look at its systems integration issues with a GM PCM. I noted with some trepidation that the 850 manual is 450+ pages (the E30 manual is only about 80 pages; only about eight wires in the host E30 need to be interfaced). The E31 swap may be easy from a mechanical standpoint: lots of room, etc. But the electrical integration could be difficult since the E31 is so much more complex. More study is needed.
The V12 850s have "Two of everything", like two MAFs, two throttle bodies, two ECMs(?). Makes it look a lot more complex. Also, these cars were loaded with every electronic wiz-bang technology that BMW could think of in the 1990s.

Making a 100% factory functional 850 with the original engine is hard enough after this many years, but doing it with an engine swap could be a nightmare. If tackling this LS1 swap I'd try to simplify systems wherever it makes sense...

[rao]

You are not going to need any of those things. The integration of the electronics should be no more complex than any other BMW swap.

[323I Junkie]

You are not going to need any of those things. The integration of the electronics should be no more complex than any other BMW swap.

Most people leave the majority of the peripheral gauge system including FE monitor and CEL disconeected. You would want all of those operationsal

[rao]

The CEL is easy to deal with. I don't know what the FE monitor is.

[casdm9901]

Fat Tuesday, Your my new Hero!!!!!!!

+1

Somebody hurry up and kit this thing so I can justify buying a roller :devillook

[323I Junkie]

if somebody did kit the thing people would just try to buy the thing for free, noone would want to pay what its worth

[casdm9901]

Considering its age and cost to repair a roller wouldn't be worth a whole lot.

[323I Junkie]

No, I mean for the kit to convert it

[casdm9901]

No, I mean for the kit to convert it

You think so:dunno I sure would!

[Sonicspeed]

Nearly anything is better with an LSX shoehorned in there...

[323I Junkie]

Nearly anything is better with an LSX shoehorned in there...

They even make P-51 mustang replica kits ready for them

[Fair]

Just went by a local vomo dealer/shop that had an 850i with the V12 out (blown up). What a PoS motor... huge thing, no power, SOHC, hideously bad exhaust ports, and expensive to repair. The owner is looking to get rid of it

Engine bay is mammoth with the V12 yanked out. Staggeringly huge. There's a lot of clutter in there... dual ECMs, dual air inlets, remote oil filter, power steering hoses are routed for crap, the steering box is in a poor location, tons of coolant/washer fluid reservoiers, massive cabin filter housing... but the LS1 should still plop in there with FEET to spare in front. :eek: We took pics... I'll post them here later.

One thing I don't like about the E31 after seeing it "naked" is that the front suspension is very space inefficient compared to say the E36/46: it is a "rear steer" set-up, uses an old school steering box (not a rack and pinion), and the swaybar and rear K-member bracing are in the back, right in the way of a standard LS1 rear oil pan sump. There are other LS1 oil pans that would work (GTO 6.0L LS2 pan, or LS7 dry sump pan) but its an added hassle I didn't foresee.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/127017598-S.jpg
GTO rear sump oil pan

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/127017608-S.jpghttp://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/127017607-S.jpg
LS7 Corvette "Dry sump" low profile oil pan

Never going to be a big market for E31 LS1 swaps, so a "kit" may or may not happen.

[LexdiamonNYC]

so what you're saying is, this swap would be easy and a twin turbo set-up would not be a problem...:devillook

[RANE2001]

I am far from the E31 expert but here's what I know (or think I know, ha!):


Bimmer has a great E31 buyers guide in issue #56 Feb. 2006 (order the back issue (http://bimmer-mag.com/back_issues.html)!) and a Market Update in issue #67 June 2007.
840s are newer, less problematic (except for the potential Nikasil block issue with the M60 V8) but all had automatics
850s had 6-spd manuals, 4-spd autos or 5-spd autos - but most had the automatics
lots of threads here at bf.com about them (like this one (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415060))
Here is the E31FAQ (http://www.e31faq.com/) (which is awful)
The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_8_Series) is more helpful than the FAQ above


I think once that big lump of a V12 is removed and a svelte aluminum LS1 V8 is installed, the added power and lighter weight would finally make the E31 the true supercar BMW had once envisioned! :)

Funny how you do nothing but knock the 850 but you have never owned one. That just cracks me up. Oh and btw that FAQ is written by an E31 owner that knows how to take these apart and put them back together with his eyes closed.

[Fair]

Who passed out the Haterade? :stickoutt


Funny how you do nothing but knock the 850 but you have never owned one. That just cracks me up. Oh and btw that FAQ is written by an E31 owner that knows how to take these apart and put them back together with his eyes closed.
Well, it doesn't take a Doctorate in E31-ology to see some drawbacks to this model... namely massive curb weight and a problematic and costly to repair V12 engine. :D It was a $90K+ car at the time but its performance was eclipsed by many other luxury sports cars of the same era... It does look damn good, even today. I think with a more powerful engine it could be a damn fine sports car. The SOHC V12 is not that engine.

You don't necessarily gain some mystical knowledge from "owning" a car, either. I've worked on cars for 25 years and know some things about some car models I've never even "owned"... its craziness. I've also known people that owned the same car for 10+ years that didn't know jack about them. Sure, you can learn some quirks and insight from daily driving anything, especially if you maintain it yourself. Not discounting that at all...

edit: hard to take criticism from a guy with scissor doors and the bling-o-meter set at "11". :D

Cheers!

[speedyhawk101]

edit: hard to take criticism from a guy with scissor doors and the bling-o-meter set at "11". :D

Cheers!


:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[e31bubba]

[

edit: hard to take criticism from a guy with scissor doors and the bling-o-meter set at "11". :D

Cheers![/quote]


Hey if you can't bling in an 8 what can you bling in no what I mean LOL

The v12 is good if you put serious money into it look at Ahmed 860i its got more hp and tq at the wheels then new m6 at the flywheel.

[sausrigging]

[

edit: hard to take criticism from a guy with scissor doors and the bling-o-meter set at "11". :D

(The v12 is good if you put serious money into it look at Ahmed 860i its got more hp and tq at the wheels then new m6 at the flywheel.)





Yeah, I dont get how that car with all of its supposed hp traps at 112...

Tfair, I'll ship that dud ast back asap! Sorry:embarrasm

[MWrench]

[



The v12 is good if you put serious money into it look at Ahmed 860i its got more hp and tq at the wheels then new m6 at the flywheel.

Ummmm not quite right!! Torque maybe but HP Not a chance! A M70 or S70 will not produce 500 HP at the crank unless it is blown!

The m70 series of engines was NOT designed to be a HP puller but had to be a torque monster to pull the HEAVY E31 down the road, and it did a good job of that--BUT-- the M70 series does NOT response to conventional techniques to increase power! Many years ago I mapped the head for both the intake and exhaust ports and they are --well-- simply awful! (exhaust ports) I have pictures of this effort on my website in the "white paper" section.

You have a choice of 4 cams, stock, S70, Schrick, and Powerplantracing, that is it!!

You can not bore the engine without sleeving or expensive Nikasil plating, the only cranks to go to 6.0L or 6.1L cost $4000

I have been involved in several 6.0L M70 build-ups and the max HP is right around 450 +/- at the crank!

Remember the M70 V-12 is a early 1980 designed engine and since then there has been vast improvement in combustion technology and control electronics not to mention intake/exhaust port design and aluminum casting technology.

The V-12 is a heavy engine, with all accessories, intakes/DK motors, exhaust manifolds, flywheel, clutch pack, starter, A/C compressor, P/S pump dry weighs in art 590 lbs, compared to an LS1 comparably equipped at 485 lbs.

The E31 is one of the best looking BMW ever built, BUT it is crying for more power!!! 500 HP is not enough most importantly it needs torque!! A M5 V-10 transplant would be a travesty, has the HP but no where near enough torque. Needs at least 500 lb/ft.

I will do a E31 engine transplant one day (after my M6 is finished) and most likely it will be a LSX? and twin turbo! In all fairness, the front end components are borrowed from the E32 and E34 including the steering system, It isn't all that bad, E34 M5 will go around a track quite well despite their weight! Sure rack would be better but the E31 is a 4400 lb car!

This is not meant to rain on anyones parade but only a look at reality! I have never owned one but have worked on hundreds of the E31s, engines, drive train and suspension, know it well and also know its limitations. :)

[LexdiamonNYC]

:devillook:devillook:devillook
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q246/lexdiamonnyc/ls7TT.jpg

[323I Junkie]

Just went by a local vomo dealer/shop that had an 850i with the V12 out (blown up). What a PoS motor... huge thing, no power, SOHC, hideously bad exhaust ports, and expensive to repair. The owner is looking to get rid of it


I wouldnt call it "POS". It put out 300 Horsepower with every emission chokcing device there was. It jumps to about 360 when those are removed and some tuning is done. Its torque curve is tmendous. Have you ever driven a 750? Ever wonder how the thing is so damn quick for its near three ton weight?
Engine bay is mammoth with the V12 yanked out. Staggeringly huge. There's a lot of clutter in there... dual ECMs, dual air inlets, remote oil filter, power steering hoses are routed for crap, the steering box is in a poor location, tons of coolant/washer fluid reservoiers, massive cabin filter housing... but the LS1 should still plop in there with FEET to spare in front. :eek: We took pics... I'll post them here later.
BMW spared no copper in wiring that thing fo sure

One thing I don't like about the E31 after seeing it "naked" is that the front suspension is very space inefficient compared to say the E36/46: it is a "rear steer" set-up, uses an old school steering box (not a rack and pinion), and the swaybar and rear K-member bracing are in the back, right in the way of a standard LS1 rear oil pan sump. There are other LS1 oil pans that would work (GTO 6.0L LS2 pan, or LS7 dry sump pan) but its an added hassle I didn't foresee.

Do you know anything? A properly built steering box works great. I have one in my TA...low ratio..its awesome. The car handles great fo its size and so do its brethren cars, like the e34...



Never going to be a big market for E31 LS1 swaps, so a "kit" may or may not happen.
And you sound like a know it all so Im not sure anyone would buy from you anyway...save your effort. If you want to upgrade its fine.But dont come onto a BMW forum and piss on one of their iconic engines. HAve you driven, checked out, or been inside the 760 engine? THey fixed their problems for sure


:cool

[Acorn]

I like the sound of the V12, and the look of the V12-ness under a hood. This is why I am busy transplanting one from a 750 into an e24 6er. Since the M70 only weighs 50lbs more than the M30, it is not too much of a problem, and for the money, a bunch of HP and Torque for a 3400lb car. (I got the 750iL for $500 with only 66k miles on it) However, since the motor in the 840 is already shot, and there are already V12 8ers, I would choose something unique as well. You've also got to remember that if you lighten the front end too much, it will offset the balance of the car and potentially make it akward to drive. If I had the money, the Viper V10 would be the way to go, I just love the exhaust note produced by Mopar motors. Chevy and Ford, not so much. But to each his own. As to the looks of the 8, I love them. I just dislike the horrendously massive tail lights.

Also, someone said something about Miller MAFs, what kind of added bonus to the M70 does that add, HP and Torque wise?

[TommyV]

:cool

Lighten up, Francis! This is the Engine Conversion forum. Don't come in here with a purist attitude and knock someone like Terry's ideas just because he thinks he has something that will work better than what BMW came up with close to 30 years ago! BTW Vorshlag has done a lot of great stuff for us 3 series owners. I have a set of their camber plates on my M3 and they are a work of art!

Tom

[323I Junkie]

Lighten up, Francis! This is the Engine Conversion forum. Don't come in here with a purist attitude and knock someone like Terry's ideas just because he thinks he has something that will work better than what BMW came up with close to 30 years ago! BTW Vorshlag has done a lot of great stuff for us 3 series owners. I have a set of their camber plates on my M3 and they are a work of art!

Tom

I'm not a purist and I love engine swaps, I just cant stand arrogance. People calling the m70 junk... Id like to see them build something better with the resources of the time period and the cost constraints, aw that last ones a bitch for the know-it-alls, isnt it? We can wish in one hand, crap in the other...the m70 makes great power. 300 -400 to 450 crank is awesome. Most , 99 percent of drivers, probably cant adequately use that power in a race setting anyway. The LSx is also bigger and benefits from coming from a generation of engines two generations beyond the m70. Besides, .7 to 3 liters is a big difference.

By all means, do LSx swaps, but you can do it without the know it all attitude. LIke THEY BUILT the LSX. Like THEY ENGINEERED it. All they did was take GM's take-out, warm it up in the microwave, and shove it in the first plate that fits. Why brag about it? I was the first tech in my dealership to rebuild an LS1. What does that make me? A TECH. Not an engineer. I cant brag about that engine or arrogantly use it to belittle other peoples work. I didnt make it .


I detest arrogance. It reeks of insecurity and ignorance.

But by all means..swap. In the world of swaps, I would love to see a Northstar in an E36 M3. Beautiful engine. OR if you could stand the sound, a Taurus SHO V8 fully chromed in an e34...

[LexdiamonNYC]

I dunno Francis........you're here calling people ignorant, blah...........for all you know, some of us know a great deal about the M70, and still don't like it.

the M70 is a dated, not very efficient design......... 300-400hp from a somewhat modern V12 is shamefull.......it may be a great engine and an engineering marvel, but a slow, heavy, and very expensive sonbitch.......


like most said, I'd much rather go with a smaller, lighter, easily upgradeable LSx.......



the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!
the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!
the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!

there I said it!!!;)

[garretvs]

I'm not a purist and I love engine swaps, I just cant stand arrogance.

I detest arrogance. It reeks of insecurity and ignorance.



Dude....you are a fucking HYPOCRITE. Your posts are some of the most arrogant piece of shit responses I've read on this whole board. Your stupid quotes where you inject your little "I am god of BMW's and I know all that is correct and right and to tell people I'll use size 20 bold font. I'll even put the little fucking sunglasses below it because i think I'm so tight"...and you're telling other people that THEY are arrogant for saying that the 8 series isn't as good of a swap car as they had thought?? It is not an opinion my friend that a large steering box = bad for swaps, rather that is a cold hard fact. How can there possibly be arrogance in facts? I swear you come in here just to dream and piss people off.

If your post is merely about how far your panties are jammed up your ass, then don't bother posting....

[323I Junkie]

Dude....you are a fucking HYPOCRITE. Your posts are some of the most arrogant piece of shit responses I've read on this whole board. Your stupid quotes where you inject your little "I am god of BMW's and I know all that is correct and right and to tell people I'll use size 20 bold font. I'll even put the little fucking sunglasses below it because i think I'm so tight"...and you're telling other people that THEY are arrogant for saying that the 8 series isn't as good of a swap car as they had thought?? It is not an opinion my friend that a large steering box = bad for swaps, rather that is a cold hard fact. How can there possibly be arrogance in facts? I swear you come in here just to dream and piss people off.

If your post is merely about how far your panties are jammed up your ass, then don't bother posting....

Wow..talk about panties jammed up an ass...:rolleyes


What happened to you? I have always been professional and decent with you in your threads...but I guess this is evidence of just how unstable and unpredictable people can be.


Is this you or your dad posting? Because you sound like a 17 year old. Whats more, I beleive you are confusing me with someone else becuase I dont really frequent any forums you do.

[323I Junkie]

I dunno Francis........you're here calling people ignorant, blah...........for all you know, some of us know a great deal about the M70, and still don't like it.

the M70 is a dated, not very efficient design......... 300-400hp from a somewhat modern V12 is shamefull.......it may be a great engine and an engineering marvel, but a slow, heavy, and very expensive sonbitch.......


like most said, I'd much rather go with a smaller, lighter, easily upgradeable LSx.......



the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!
the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!
the M70 is a piece of junk!!!!

there I said it!!!;)



To each his own, but Im not going to go in and criticise other peoples work, especially in the way thats been going on here.


Like I said, There may be three people on this entire forum who have done ANY commercial engineering whatsoever, maybe none. Hindisght is always 20-20. The exhaust port configuration could stand some work. I wish someone would get the wild hair to do a set of heads for it. But I am sure they did it that way for a reason, probably the chassis they were going in. Theoretically, the m20 "IS" head should make 340-360 HP unmodified on that engine. BUt when you cut the head, theres no where to go. And they didnt use "IS" anyway. THere has been some creative work in the past, but not now..just not enough market. However, V12 dynamics are pretty interesting, and if you are in it for the sheer "curiosity" of what you are doing,,they are a great candidate. For shee power..IM a 502 fan,,,

Still, to me 300-450 crank Horses naturally aspirated out of a 30 year old engine design seems fair enough to me. Is it expensive? After 360 horses, yes. But look at a 302..if it wasnt for AFR, etc...it wouldnt do any better. Back in the "day"..people were scrounging for 289 High-Po heads, etc, 400 crank horses was bragging rights.

You can call the m70 "junk"...heavy..which it isnt really, I mean, compared to some things a little, but , you can call it whatever you want, but in the end, it is a viable and unique powerplant. Since you want to call it a boat anchor, send them my way...Ill find something for it

[MWrench]

I don't know where you are getting your HP numbers from but, 360 HP out of a stock M70 is NOT possible without a lot of work and expense!!n Your mention of burdened by SMOG equipment, the only SMOG equipment worth noting are the cats, there is no air pump, no EGR, some slight tuneing can be done with the ECU by chip replacement but even then, the gain is only 10-15 HP. Many people have put headers on the M70 and S70 and have gotten no HP gain at all, this has been verified by dyno numbers and reported by credible members of the E31 community!

The m70 is a 5.0L ~300 HP engine with only 8.8:1 compression ratio, even with schrick ($$$$) cams and chips the engine will not produce 360HP.

The M73 engine is 5.4 L ~326 HP with 10:1 compression ratio, the cams are totally different then the M70 and there is nothing that is available for that engine for bumping the HP.

The S70 is 5.6 L ~380 HP with ~9.8:1 compression ratios and more aggressive cams and even headers did not add more HP to one individuals engine

The point is, if it was so easy to get 360 from the M70 engine, most of the E31 guys would have done it, and bragging about it! They are continually in search of more HP and torque, but have found it very difficult and expensive!

Again this is not a bashing of the V-12 but just a simple reality check, the M70 series V-12 was not designed for a race motor but for a torque monster to move a heavy vehicle. Tuners and modifiers have found the market to small, the engine to difficult to work on (with reasonable cost) and the basic engine platform not responsive enough to devote any engineering resources for a reasonable ROI!

As the E31 and E32 chassis get older and the average mileage gets well over 200K you will see many of these hit the salvage yards, The E32 already is there and many because the engine or transmission has failed and it is not cost effective to rebuild the V-12 with what is available. The E31 IMHO will get a fair share of engine transplants just because it is such a beautiful car and has such a timeless design.

Respectfully--

[ososinsk]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:




Any updates on the swap, the one that's actually happening regardless of the debate?

[garretvs]

Take a look at www.realoem.com for the list price of an 850 V-12 remanufactured short engine: $16,103.88 plus your old core; reman crank assy with bearings: $4603.50; piston, .010 oversize: $276.77 each (*12 = $3312.24)

There will be almost none of these cars rebuilt/repaired if the engine goes. Only a guy who loves his car will do so. Most of the cars that have blown engines will be on their second or third owner; probably a guy who couldn't afford 1/10 the cost of a major engine repair or has a nice enough garage to do it on his own.

The LSx swap with a Magnacharger looks better and better ... half the price of getting the M70 fixed!!

Garret & Steve doing E30-LS1 aka 357is

[323I Junkie]

HP Twin turbo on the e31
700-1000 HP should motivate it


Or you could do an S2000 motor :biglaughb:

[garretvs]

The latest talk with us has been an e38, supercharged LSX...the luxury sexyness of the greatest gen 7 series with some serious power and a six speed = tits...:boobies

-Garret

[323I Junkie]

Ive considered an LSX in my e23...it would run better than even the turbo six and the six speed faxtor too

nice thing about an e38 is it will house at least 315's in the back I beleive. I have 285s and theres room

[e31bubba]

any progress on the swap?

[e31bubba]

bump?

[LexdiamonNYC]

any progress on the swap?


bump?

+10000000:help

[BSH]

Tons of room under that long, sexy hood. I want an E31 chassis LS1 in a bad way. :evil2 I always keep an eye out for a 6-spd 850i with a popped motor... since the V12 is $25K+ to rebuild properly, the LS1 swap really would be a LOT less expensive.

This is just one dead sexy car...:drool:

Gdam...that car is in BC too!

[323I Junkie]

A supercharged 4.6 from an 03 cobra would be cool too... and you wouldnt have to worry about turboes....you could make it a 5.4

[speedyhawk101]

A supercharged 4.6 from an 03 cobra would be cool too... and you wouldnt have to worry about turboes....you could make it a 5.4


Efff a Ford Motor

[323I Junkie]

Eh, they run alright and hold together just fine..and they're cheap too....


Just burned out by all the "Put an LS1 in ...." on the 'net

[MrBlonde]

I don't know where you are getting your HP numbers from but, 360 HP out of a stock M70 is NOT possible without a lot of work and expense!!n Your mention of burdened by SMOG equipment, the only SMOG equipment worth noting are the cats, there is no air pump, no EGR, some slight tuneing can be done with the ECU by chip replacement but even then, the gain is only 10-15 HP. Many people have put headers on the M70 and S70 and have gotten no HP gain at all, this has been verified by dyno numbers and reported by credible members of the E31 community!

The m70 is a 5.0L ~300 HP engine with only 8.8:1 compression ratio, even with schrick ($$$$) cams and chips the engine will not produce 360HP.

The M73 engine is 5.4 L ~326 HP with 10:1 compression ratio, the cams are totally different then the M70 and there is nothing that is available for that engine for bumping the HP.

The S70 is 5.6 L ~380 HP with ~9.8:1 compression ratios and more aggressive cams and even headers did not add more HP to one individuals engine

The point is, if it was so easy to get 360 from the M70 engine, most of the E31 guys would have done it, and bragging about it! They are continually in search of more HP and torque, but have found it very difficult and expensive!

Again this is not a bashing of the V-12 but just a simple reality check, the M70 series V-12 was not designed for a race motor but for a torque monster to move a heavy vehicle. Tuners and modifiers have found the market to small, the engine to difficult to work on (with reasonable cost) and the basic engine platform not responsive enough to devote any engineering resources for a reasonable ROI!

As the E31 and E32 chassis get older and the average mileage gets well over 200K you will see many of these hit the salvage yards, The E32 already is there and many because the engine or transmission has failed and it is not cost effective to rebuild the V-12 with what is available. The E31 IMHO will get a fair share of engine transplants just because it is such a beautiful car and has such a timeless design.

Respectfully--
Bingo!

[htrdbmr]

A supercharged 4.6 from an 03 cobra would be cool too... and you wouldnt have to worry about turboes....you could make it a 5.4friends don't let friends drive Fords

[323I Junkie]

Bingo!

Bingo What?
360 crank is not uncommon. The guy with the Ultima/v12 has over 400..

No, its not an LS1.


Why dont we just put LS1's in everything, because speed is all that matters.

[rao]

LS1s, LS2s, LS6s, Ls7s and all of their variants are not fast either, just ask Mr. Blonde :lol

[speedyhawk101]

HP Twin turbo on the e31
700-1000 HP should motivate it


Or you could do an S2000 motor :biglaughb:

Or just put an LS1 in the S2000.....

PS check out LS1tech.com :buttrock

[speedyhawk101]

Why dont we just put LS1's in everything, because speed is all that matters.

Now your getting it. It took some time guys but he finally came around!!!

No but seriously the lsx motors are just better.

[LexdiamonNYC]

Now your getting it. It took some time guys but he finally came around!!!

No but seriously the lsx motors are just better.

no seriously....i hope he just stops posting and ruining what can still be a good thread.......:nono

[MWrench]

Bingo What?
360 crank is not uncommon. The guy with the Ultima/v12 has over 400..


Yup he sure does and it is NOT a stock 5.0L M70, it is a 6.0L sleeved engine, with custom ground cams, and-- to do that most commoners would be paying north of $20K to get there! The crank alone cost $4K!

[323I Junkie]

no seriously....i hope he just stops posting and ruining what can still be a good thread.......:nono



Sorry I wont join in the group stroking of this idea. Forgive me for having a counter opinion. :rolleyes: Bite me. Seriously.

Anyway, I know LS1's are better. Frighteningly, they are better in some serious ways that Ford has never seemed to address, though theyve had what, almost 15 years to? The tall, dry flow ports, the combustion chamber configuration. The mountains of torque. Ford has neer come out with an answer, stubbornly sticking to their OHC philosophy. ANd when they do make power, they use more fuel to do it. But they still have cool engines, and blown 4.6's run well and are very durable. The cool LS1 I would love to see built is a 5.0 , 4" bore 3" stroke nod at the original RS/SS Z28 . I have heard of one, but never actually seen anything on it.


Many engines can make very incredible engine swaps. Even the lowly 302 has some distinct advantages, size being a big one, Ive considered runnign one of those instead of the V12 in my TA, just to be obnoxious and not run a SBC. Unique and individual matter a lot to me when sinking my retirement into a car project, but to each his own.

And yeah, I know that Ultima engine has a long stroke crank. I should have brought that out..but it is awesome, isnt it? How many of would remember that particular GTR if it had an LS1? Exactly. The price is rediculous, I will admit.


Speed is all that matters, if you are building a race car. But between the worlds of grocery getters and dedicated track cars of whatever racing genre, there is the street car, in whatever iteration. Many people pursue acceleration as the ultimate drug. Many people relentlessly pruseu body details, suspension, or even stereos and interior. But in the end, none of them are race cars. And although it is stubborn and pgiheaded of me to constantly criticsize those who pursue brute acceleration, my fascination has turned to "weid-ass performance cars the factories never built". I like the whole package deal. I will admit an LS1 is a great engine for the e31..My attitude comes form everybody going LS1 crazy..even my Ford buddies.:(

I like things better before they get crazy popular.


And I hope I've stated this without sounding like the conformist tools shooting their mouths off here

[MatteBlackCoupeDude]

If you can find an already-raped 850, then it makes sense. But otherwise, just do it do the cheap version, the 840.

It's like doing an ls1 swap into a n m3. It'd be cheaper and better to do it to a 318.

[LexdiamonNYC]

hmmm, turbo LSx in e46 M3.......not a bad idea.........:devillook

[MrBlonde]

LS1s, LS2s, LS6s, Ls7s and all of their variants are not fast either, just ask Mr. Blonde :lol
I've never said that ego wound boy.

[rao]

I've never said that ego wound boy.

Sure you did.

[MrBlonde]

Sure you did.
Prove it by linking a post I've made right here, where I state that
LS1s, LS2s, LS6s, Ls7s and all of their variants are not fast either

Here's what I have said:

Post 1 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=56)


Yes there is Mr 1950s. It's called fporced induction. Of coruse a good big one beats a good little one, but a 400 bhp LS1 is useless at a drag strip.


Post 2 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=88)


Silly little man, you think 400 bhp is going to cut it at a drag strip.

I tell you what, how about you shut up until you've got a timeslip from your mighty LS2 powered E30 strip animal. Internet racers.


Post 3 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=104)


Rob, sorry to let you down old chap but I've only just stumbled across this thread again.

The basis of our discussion is that I implied that 400 bhp is not enough to run decent numbers at a drag strip. You mocked my statement. I asked you to stop talking and start posting timeslips. You declined.

I have no idea about your genitals, intellectual capacity or height. Or attractiveness. Thank you for raising these concepts, but perhaps let's stick to the point of our discussion.

So post your timeslips or shut the fuck up. :-)

In regards to LSx swaps into BMWs, I think they are great! The LSx engines are the coming thing. Once you've put two pumps off the side of one I'd look at it. The RB26DETT engines are again a great engine. Again they need some major work to make good numbers.

I have friends with RB26DETT powered cars, and friends with LS1/LS2 twin turbo cars. Love 'em.

All this does not change the fact that 400 bhp isn't going to cut it at the drag strip. Get over yourself.


Post 4 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=111)


Post 59 in this thread was where you ridiculed my statement that a 400 bhp LS1 is useless at a drag strip. Everything since then is rhetoric on your behalf.

I think your LSx swap into an E36 is great, love it. But get over yourself thinking an LS2 in an E36 is a monster.


Post 5 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=116)


We were talking about a 400 bhp LS1 swap into an E36, weren't we? You can talk about 400 bhp powered Elises if you like, go ahead.

I've never suggested that an LS1 is limited to 400 bhp, I've watched the world's fastest LS1 powered car (7 second passes) at my local drag strip more than once, love 'em.

Very sensitive egos over here in engine conversion forum and very little tolerance for anyone who has a different opinion on LSx compared to RB26DETT, 2JZ or BMW turbo engines. I thought this would be a haven of free thought?

I've said many times I love the LSx swaps into BMWs, keep them coming.
Some of your scout leaders make comments I find ignorant and I call them out, you get your panties in a bunch.

That's all it is, carry on.


Post 6 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9682829&postcount=118)


The Hypa Racing back halved GTO ute ran 7.009 @ 197 MPH with a 1.09 short time. Has run 207 MPH. Gotta love that. I understnad it is running a single Thumper 101 MM turbo.


You can continue to weep your bitter tears Rob, but you're making the issue bigger than it needs to be.

[rao]

but you're making the issue bigger than it needs to be.

That would be ME, you obviously let things go quite easily :lol

[MrBlonde]

That would be ME, you obviously let things go quite easily :lol
Rob, your flippant throw away remark does away with my proof that you are wrong. I see how you did that, very clever.

[rao]

I vote for wrapping this up here :)

Let's see some pics of the finished 850 swap.

[rcrad6653]

:lol I'll second that....cheers

[335i Touring]

What a waste of time, this thread was about an actual engine swap originally, yeah ? Not the theories or pros and cons of the swap. :rolleyes

[garretvs]

Some day MrBlonde's car will get finished ...... 1126 days in someone else's shop??
Nice to see pics of your car down at the lakefront, Rob. (Steve is from Chicago, grew up in Evanston)

[ezbmr]

So how much are the engines and the swaps, it sounds pretty cool, can you hook up an automatic to it, and which auto? The engines are far less expensive than a BMW one. I can't believe they get so much power and economy out of such an outdated design

[banndit]

any progress?
B

[PhatTonis]

Some day MrBlonde's car will get finished ...... 1126 days in someone else's shop??
Nice to see pics of your car down at the lakefront, Rob. (Steve is from Chicago, grew up in Evanston)

:nono not like rao did his own work, nor could you complete your swap without daddie's hand :rolleyes

[rao]

I seem to remember doing the work myself. :lol

[PhatTonis]

err my fault then...my apologizes:(

[Fair]

What a waste of time, this thread was about an actual engine swap originally, yeah ? Not the theories or pros and cons of the swap. :rolleyes

+1 to that! :D When we start a E31 LS1 swap we will have to start a new thread...

Oh yea, that's a strong possibility. Just working out the specifics with the customer. :)

[garretvs]

Go fair!

Someone has to "save" those E31's from the wrecking yard ... I would bet most of them that are in need of major work are also on their second or third owners -- many of whom can't possibly afford a re-build or have the place, skill and $$$$$$$$$$$ to rebuild the BMW V12 drivetrain. 16Kbills for a re-built engine 4600 for a crank with bearings 500 for a radiator 4067 for a cylinder head 5200 for a rebuilt tranny & torque converter etc etc etc

A brand-new LS2, T56 & all of the stuff needed for a swap would probably cost HALF of what a reman engine plus installation would cost, have lots of room to grow hp, and be rid of the less-than-stellar Bosch engine management system.

[MrBlonde]

Some day MrBlonde's car will get finished ...... 1126 days in someone else's shop??
Nice to see pics of your car down at the lakefront, Rob. (Steve is from Chicago, grew up in Evanston)
Rob and I have kissed and made up.

My car is in phase 8 of development dude, it's been "finished" and started again many times since 1998 :-) Is a modified car ever "finished" I ask you!

[garretvs]

A project car is only finished when you decide to quit working on it

[e34biturbo]

What a waste of time, this thread was about an actual engine swap originally, yeah ? Not the theories or pros and cons of the swap. :rolleyes

I like that green on your car what is the color name or code:buttrock

[335i Touring]

Cheers, it's called Malachite

Sorry for the O/T

[e34biturbo]

Cheers, it's called Malachite

Sorry for the O/T

that is a nice looking color:buttrock

[ScubaNme]

The 850i has got to be my favorite BMW for looks. It would be Hella mean with a LS-7 engine! A sleeper for sure. I wish somebody would do a conversion.

[ScubaNme]

Go fair!

Someone has to "save" those E31's from the wrecking yard ... I would bet most of them that are in need of major work are also on their second or third owners -- many of whom can't possibly afford a re-build or have the place, skill and $$$$$$$$$$$ to rebuild the BMW V12 drivetrain. 16Kbills for a re-built engine 4600 for a crank with bearings 500 for a radiator 4067 for a cylinder head 5200 for a rebuilt tranny & torque converter etc etc etc

A brand-new LS2, T56 & all of the stuff needed for a swap would probably cost HALF of what a reman engine plus installation would cost, have lots of room to grow hp, and be rid of the less-than-stellar Bosch engine management system.

You got a great point!

[de45t]

nice!!

[uflnuceng]

Haven't told the wife yet, but once my E34 535i TCD Stage-2 project is done (motor/drivetrain done, just doing the interior and paint prep) I'm going to do this. E31 is a fantastic vehicle... find one with a popped motor and get it cheap, strip it down to send the to bodyshop, and then build it up from scratch, exactly how I want it. I may even keep an automatic tranny behind the LS2... but this is definitely the next project. I'm thinking late next year (Fall 2008) would be doable. Anything has to be easier than cramming that damn M30 motor in an E30 that I did.

[attilahooper]

It would be grand if people would stop complaining that their pussy hurts and get on with the topic of discussion.

[htrdbmr]

It's just something you have to deal with, like building headers, and other "hot rod" fabrication. It's a beautiful car, and a prime candidate for a modern motor.

[ellomdian]

It would be grand if people would stop complaining that their pussy hurts and get on with the topic of discussion.

Yeah - and how about all those retards with no post count necro'ing threads that are 6 months old for no good reason?

It's quite clear that this project died in the bench racing stage. If you want to stay on topic, do it yourself and post a writeup.

[Fair]

It's quite clear that this project died in the bench racing stage.
Yep. The numbers just suck...

We had two different guys that were hot and heavy to do a prototype E31 LS1 build, but they both disappeared. I think the costs involved scared them off.

The added 8 series challenges include: increased chassis cost, steering box and linkage interference (rack and pinion is so much nicer and more compact), and additional wiring obstacles of the more complicated E31. Its also one big ass heavy mofo of a car, so the performance will be somewhat muted compared to a lighter, cheaper, and better handling E36/46 LS1 swap.

Still... there' an 850i with a popped motor at a shop I've had my eye on for half a year. I keep bugging the guy to sell it to me cheap... the owner still has a fantasy of fixing it. When he tires of that, I'd love to pick it up... not that we have time to do new engine swaps. :(

[bmwlovr]

Here ya' go Fair:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___BMW-850-e31-v12_W0QQitemZ190224482809QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20Trucks QQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190224482809&
:D

[Randy Blaylock]

I had considered a LSx conversion is a 840/850 chassis. Spoke with several well informed individuals who told me that the pan actually weighed less than an E30/36 pan of any derivation. The principle issue that I found prohibitive was the multi link suspension layout, that would have required either a complete refreshing, or simply a shit canning and reworking. In the end it was a waste of time considering the work involved. Not to say that they're really cool body styles, and that it would have been cool to stick a finger in the eye of the purists, but it was just too much work.

I ended up doing a swap in a 318ti chassis, which was equally as unique, and much cheaper in the buy-in. This project was really fun, and successful, despite some people's assertions of certain failure from the (oh my god) inferior E30 trailing arm rear suspension. Kind of makes me want to do another ti conversion with a fat 650 hp just to show that it doesn't take an engineering degree to do a swap, or maybe I'm just drunk..

[Hobz]

I had a LS1 RX7 and love the idea of putting two great things together. The 850 is 1300lbs heavier and has an auto but about the same power, perhaps a little more torque. I'm enjoying the car right now, but if I get bored with the power I think an LS2 or LS3 swap would be very tempting. They are very solid engines and quite simple. There is a huge aftermarket and perhaps there's even room for a roots blower ontop since the LS should be less tall due to the pushrod design.

I got about 27mpg on the highway in the rx7, and even though the 8 is heavier, that should affect highway mileage as much, and I believe they are similar aerodynamically (rx7 has higher cd but smaller frontal area). I didn't even bother calculating city mileage, that thing was too much fun from a standstill.

Though I see the enthusiasm seems to have waned, I look forward to seeing what people can accomplish in the meantime.

Regarding the steering box, well, if you're already doing this much custom work it should be possible, with some research to find a rack and pinion to replace it. Or can it be relocated?

It should be possible to fool the E31 to think that the engine is there and running fine. It might take a lot of work to iron out all the details, but the car would drive in the meantime and you could take your time figuring out those things. It's also not difficult to program little microcontrollers to take a signal and process it and output a different signal. I even made a prototype spedometer adapter for the RX7 that took the trans speed signal, converted it to a PWM signal powering an electric motor that spun the mechanical spedometer input and used an encoder for control. It's a steep learning curve but it's amazing what you can do with these microcontrollers these days!

There is a huge aftermarket header selection for the LS1s so perhaps one that fits can be found. The stock headers are also decent and very compact.

I bought my LS1 for $3800 with T-56, harness and radiator fans a few years ago. It should be possible for someone to do the swap for less than 10k if they can do a lot of work by themselves and can fabricate and know their way around a wiring harness.

No swap is easy until someone does it first and solves all the problems.

Easy for me to say anyway. I'm in no position to do this myself right now, but if anyone in the Boston area is looking to do it I'll be more than happy to lend a few late nights for beer and pizza :D

Oh, and hi Rao, i remember you from the good old days on Torque Central :)

[Euro Nation]

Getting in here WAY late but since someone else bumped the thread I'm in.

I just did a rack and pinion swap. If you're going to go all out on something like this there's no reason for a 400hp semi-modern BMW to have a steering box. It didn't free up tons of space but it did leave room for a factory GTO exhaust manifold. I'm sure it'll make the car drive better as well.

[rao]

I had a LS1 RX7 and love the idea of putting two great things together. The 850 is 1300lbs heavier and has an auto but about the same power, perhaps a little more torque. I'm enjoying the car right now, but if I get bored with the power I think an LS2 or LS3 swap would be very tempting. They are very solid engines and quite simple. There is a huge aftermarket and perhaps there's even room for a roots blower ontop since the LS should be less tall due to the pushrod design.

I got about 27mpg on the highway in the rx7, and even though the 8 is heavier, that should affect highway mileage as much, and I believe they are similar aerodynamically (rx7 has higher cd but smaller frontal area). I didn't even bother calculating city mileage, that thing was too much fun from a standstill.

Though I see the enthusiasm seems to have waned, I look forward to seeing what people can accomplish in the meantime.

Regarding the steering box, well, if you're already doing this much custom work it should be possible, with some research to find a rack and pinion to replace it. Or can it be relocated?

It should be possible to fool the E31 to think that the engine is there and running fine. It might take a lot of work to iron out all the details, but the car would drive in the meantime and you could take your time figuring out those things. It's also not difficult to program little microcontrollers to take a signal and process it and output a different signal. I even made a prototype spedometer adapter for the RX7 that took the trans speed signal, converted it to a PWM signal powering an electric motor that spun the mechanical spedometer input and used an encoder for control. It's a steep learning curve but it's amazing what you can do with these microcontrollers these days!

There is a huge aftermarket header selection for the LS1s so perhaps one that fits can be found. The stock headers are also decent and very compact.

I bought my LS1 for $3800 with T-56, harness and radiator fans a few years ago. It should be possible for someone to do the swap for less than 10k if they can do a lot of work by themselves and can fabricate and know their way around a wiring harness.

No swap is easy until someone does it first and solves all the problems.

Easy for me to say anyway. I'm in no position to do this myself right now, but if anyone in the Boston area is looking to do it I'll be more than happy to lend a few late nights for beer and pizza :D

Oh, and hi Rao, i remember you from the good old days on Torque Central :)


Welcome! This place is a little different than Torquecentral.

[323I Junkie]

If the LS1 is too big for the steering box, what about a 5.0 Ford?

There is a manifold available that mirrors closely the e31 V12 manifold

The engine is even smaller than an LS1

And they range a solid 400 to 500 HP depending on Stroke and Bore Combination

In the end...its more powerful and cheaper than a V12

[MWrench]

The LS1 is NOT to big for the steering box in any of the BMW models E24, E28, E31, E32, E34. I have a LS6 in an E24 and had to make the headers to clear but in a E31, E32 and E34 there is much more width to work with and the steering box would NOT be an issue!


Sure, off the shelf headers or OEM GM would probably not work but it is very doable without removing or changing the steering box..

[TPIOlds]

I did a small block Chevy in an E31, in the works is the LS with a 6 spd.

[legendary]

I did a small block Chevy in an E31, in the works is the LS with a 6 spd.

pics?

[TPIOlds]

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/584/4449/38959724007_large.jpg

[RahgBag]

I've always wanted an 8 series. This could potentially turn into my years-long pet project...

[PJ325i]

^ THIS!!

TPIOlds - You NEED to start a thread on this . . . pleeeeeeease :D

[Robstah]

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/584/4449/38959724007_large.jpg

That's an LT1, not LS1.

[RahgBag]

That's an LT1, not LS1.

He said that picture was his SBC swap, that the ls1 was in progress.

[TPIOlds]

It is actually an L98 before LT1.
I am currently working towards an LS7

[PJ325i]

I bet that L98 made stupid good torque to move that E31 :)

[e30polak]

LSX swap would make the car considerably lighter, with a MUCH better weight balance. The M70 is like 2 m20s put togethere, a total, restrictive POS.

LS7/LS9 + E31 = Epic! :evil2

[one bad duramax]

Ummmm not quite right!! Torque maybe but HP Not a chance! A M70 or S70 will not produce 500 HP at the crank unless it is blown!

The m70 series of engines was NOT designed to be a HP puller but had to be a torque monster to pull the HEAVY E31 down the road, and it did a good job of that--BUT-- the M70 series does NOT response to conventional techniques to increase power! Many years ago I mapped the head for both the intake and exhaust ports and they are --well-- simply awful! (exhaust ports) I have pictures of this effort on my website in the "white paper" section.

You have a choice of 4 cams, stock, S70, Schrick, and Powerplantracing, that is it!!

You can not bore the engine without sleeving or expensive Nikasil plating, the only cranks to go to 6.0L or 6.1L cost $4000

I have been involved in several 6.0L M70 build-ups and the max HP is right around 450 +/- at the crank!

Remember the M70 V-12 is a early 1980 designed engine and since then there has been vast improvement in combustion technology and control electronics not to mention intake/exhaust port design and aluminum casting technology.

The V-12 is a heavy engine, with all accessories, intakes/DK motors, exhaust manifolds, flywheel, clutch pack, starter, A/C compressor, P/S pump dry weighs in art 590 lbs, compared to an LS1 comparably equipped at 485 lbs.

The E31 is one of the best looking BMW ever built, BUT it is crying for more power!!! 500 HP is not enough most importantly it needs torque!! A M5 V-10 transplant would be a travesty, has the HP but no where near enough torque. Needs at least 500 lb/ft.

I will do a E31 engine transplant one day (after my M6 is finished) and most likely it will be a LSX? and twin turbo! In all fairness, the front end components are borrowed from the E32 and E34 including the steering system, It isn't all that bad, E34 M5 will go around a track quite well despite their weight! Sure rack would be better but the E31 is a 4400 lb car!

This is not meant to rain on anyones parade but only a look at reality! I have never owned one but have worked on hundreds of the E31s, engines, drive train and suspension, know it well and also know its limitations. :)


MY e31 LS project starts Jan 2012 :)

[Richard454]

LSX swap would make the car considerably lighter, with a MUCH better weight balance. The M70 is like 2 m20s put togethere, a total, restrictive POS.

LS7/LS9 + E31 = Epic! :evil2

You have obviously never driven a m70 powered car... IT is not just two M20's put together...

100lb less on a 4200lb car is NOT "considerably" lighter....

[e30polak]

You have obviously never driven a m70 powered car... IT is not just two M20's put together...

100lb less on a 4200lb car is NOT "considerably" lighter....

I have, I've driven 3 actually, and they're pretty unimpressive. The 750 I drove was terrible with the automatic transmission, while the M73 powered 850 I drove was a bit better. :embarrasm

The reason I describe it as 2 m20s, is, that you basically have 2 SOHC, 2 valve, poor flowing heads with poor flowing intake plenums, and a total of 5.0 liters. This makes the M70 pretty SIMILAR to having 2 choked up m20 "i" motors together, especially considering each 6 cylinder is controlled by it's own DME. :stickoutt

And the 100 lb difference sitting further over the nose of the car is a considerable difference when you talk about the way the car handles and the steering response, regardless of how heavy the car is. :rolleyes

Just because you're building a Vette with one, doesn't make you an expert. I never understood your swap...I mean sure there's a SLIGHT cool factor to saying you have a V12, but it's a terrible example at that. I'd rather swap in a turbo S50, or something along those lines, so it would actually be worth all the effort.... :lol

[Richard454]

I have, I've driven 3 actually, and they're pretty unimpressive. The 750 I drove was terrible with the automatic transmission, while the M73 powered 850 I drove was a bit better. :embarrasm

The reason I describe it as 2 m20s, is, that you basically have 2 SOHC, 2 valve, poor flowing heads with poor flowing intake plenums, and a total of 5.0 liters. This makes the M70 pretty SIMILAR to having 2 choked up m20 "i" motors together, especially considering each 6 cylinder is controlled by it's own DME. :stickoutt

And the 100 lb difference sitting further over the nose of the car is a considerable difference when you talk about the way the car handles and the steering response, regardless of how heavy the car is. :rolleyes

Just because you're building a Vette with one, doesn't make you an expert. I never understood your swap...I mean sure there's a SLIGHT cool factor to saying you have a V12, but it's a terrible example at that. I'd rather swap in a turbo S50, or something along those lines, so it would actually be worth all the effort.... :lol

Never said I was an expert??? Are you????

Although- I have OWNED three V12 powered BMW's...and have 3 V12's sitting in my basement...I just happen to like them...

Others may not 'understand' your S54 swap either ...I like it...but who am I to judge what you "should" have put in your M3....Why not an S38?....

Here's what my 'Pig w/ lipstick" looks like now...hybrid M70/M73...

Richard

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f375/Richard454/Stingray%20V12/Picture016.jpg

[Ptero]

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm an old V8 hotrodder. Started with Ford flatheads as a kid in the 60s, moved up to big Ford OHVs, then Chevs. Lots of street racing. Got bored. Drove big rigs for a long time. Learned to appreciate torque. Bought a dead v12 Jag, early S3 sedan, dropped in a 350. Should have shoehorned in a 427. Always wished I could have fixed the V12 but it died badly. Never had the money a lot of you hobbyists do. Bought a nice early low-mileage E32 750 cheap with BMW shimmy and gremlins. Cured most of that. It's my daily driver now. Very reliable. My first BMW and I can see why you nuts love them. I take two long trips twice a month. Turn on the cruise and kick back. Lots of mountain grades. Never drops gear. Fantastic. Torque monster. I don't even turn on the radio. Just try to hear the engine over the road noise. I stare at that fantastic engine for long moments in the garage. Yeah, I guess it's old and not as powerful in the pack as it once was. But I got a little trick I'll share with you. When I want to feel what it would be like to have a LS1 or some such big HP engine in her, I take her up a mountain, turn her around pointing downhill, drop her below D and stomp her. It's exactly what you'd feel and I have to admit, it scares me. And I like the price point. Costs nothing. There's cars I'd drop a V8 into. Light cars. But not this one. I just don't see the advantage. Unless the engine goes. But it won't. It's a battleship.