View Full Version : Holset H1E vs GT40R pics.
5mall5nail5
10-22-2006, 08:52 PM
Hey guys - went home today and wanted to snap pics of my buddies GT40R (40 hot and 40 cold) next to my Holset H1E because I don't think people realize how big the H1E is. Anyway, aside from the GT40R having a 4" intake and H1E being 3", they're very very very similar!
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/jkensy01/h1egt40r2.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/jkensy01/h1egt40r.jpg
eurotekm3
10-22-2006, 09:05 PM
why did u go with a holset and not a garrett gt40r ?
ADVANT123
10-22-2006, 09:12 PM
why did u go with a holset and not a garrett gt40r ?
I'm guessing the huge price difference...
salvia.D
10-22-2006, 09:17 PM
Huge is prob an understatement.
5mall5nail5
10-22-2006, 09:41 PM
$400 vs $1800?
caldweb
10-22-2006, 10:06 PM
How do the wheel sizes compare? They could be wildly different turbo even if the housings look the same size. Maybe they're similar. I'm interested to know...
5mall5nail5
10-22-2006, 10:08 PM
I will pop my compressor housing off (<3 vband) and have my bud check his. I am not sure how they compare, just posting to show the sizes.
ReiheSechs
10-22-2006, 10:36 PM
Compressor housing on the Garrett looks huge compared to the Holset
MrBlonde
10-22-2006, 10:37 PM
The Garrett GT series are latest gen. The external size is not a good comparison.
The Garrett GT series are latest gen. The external size is not a good comparison.
Yep. If it's a GT4088R it would max out somewhere in the 70+ lb/min range, likely more than a Holset H1E if it's anything like the maps I've seen for HY35's. (no idea why Holset is so tight with their compressor maps either...)
JHEIII850Turbo
10-22-2006, 11:04 PM
wheelio sizes?
byron
10-22-2006, 11:06 PM
interesting. i wonder how much of a difference there is performance wise.
EEEEeeee36
10-22-2006, 11:08 PM
I will pop my compressor housing off (<3 vband) and have my bud check his. I am not sure how they compare, just posting to show the sizes.
Do you have the trim and wheel diameter specs for the Holset? I can tell you the Trim and wheel diameter specs for the GT40R anytime you want. :thumbup:
Is the Holset a ball bearing turbo? Any links to compressor graphs?
Crap.. I just had a whole reply typed out and pressed back... here's the nitty gritty.
H1E:
Assembly P/N 3530994
Compressor inducer: 58.05mm
Compressor exducer: 81.57mm
Exducers on the Garrett stuff are the last two numbers in the turbo name.
GT4082R
50 trim - 58 lb/min
ind - 58mm
GT4088R
52 trim - 68 lb/min
ind - 63.5mm
GT4088R
54 trim - 72 lb/min
ind - 64.7mm
It's hard to really compare turbos by just wheel sizes, since a lot of GT series stuff does flow much better than older wheels of relatively similar sizes. I'd be interested in seeing a compressor map on the Holset.
Some exducer data since I found a decent DSM thread about Holsets:
HX-35W
Turbine exducer - 59.95mm
Turbine inducer - 69.71mm
H1E Assy# 3526361
Turbine exducer - 66.95mm
Turbine inducer - 75.55mm
caldweb
10-22-2006, 11:24 PM
Yeah, those inducers aren't all that big. GT35r is 61mm. Old school t72 - 72mm!
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 12:23 AM
I think I measured my inducer at ~ 2.7 and exducer at about 3.0" back when the turbo was not in the car.
I am pretty sure my friends turbo is the GT4082R - it's for a 3.0L VR6.
One thing about holset turbos is that the compressor housings are "skinny" which can be somewhat misleading. They look skinny because Holsets castings have a pretty deep recess in the "scroll" portion of the compressor housing - compare that to the Garrett which is basically a flat casting.
I was told by the person I bought this H1E off of that it is essentially an HX40 sans the anti surge intake and therefore it should flow 0.53 kg/sec which is 70.1 lb/min.
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 01:16 AM
I think I measured my inducer at ~ 2.7 and exducer at about 3.0" back when the turbo was not in the car.
I am pretty sure my friends turbo is the GT4082R - it's for a 3.0L VR6.
One thing about holset turbos is that the compressor housings are "skinny" which can be somewhat misleading. They look skinny because Holsets castings have a pretty deep recess in the "scroll" portion of the compressor housing - compare that to the Garrett which is basically a flat casting.
I was told by the person I bought this H1E off of that it is essentially an HX40 sans the anti surge intake and therefore it should flow 0.53 kg/sec which is 70.1 lb/min.
Are they ball bearing turbos? Sorry for the simple question but I've never looked into Holset turbos before. I've always been a big fan of Garrett and assumed I would save my pennies for the bad boy...but if the Holset turbos aren't that bad then I may consider them.
TIA :wave
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 01:22 AM
Are they ball bearing turbos? Sorry for the simple question but I've never looked into Holset turbos before. I've always been a big fan of Garrett and assumed I would save my pennies for the bad boy...but if the Holset turbos aren't that bad then I may consider them.
TIA :wave
They're journal bearing, but my car (M50 Non vanos) has no problem spooling max boost (9.5 psi for now) at ~3800 rpm in 2nd gear.
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 01:31 AM
They're journal bearing, but my car (M50 Non vanos) has no problem spooling max boost (9.5 psi for now) at ~3800 rpm in 2nd gear.
There is a reason for the big price difference right there. I would pay for the extra 1500rpm earlier spool of a ball bearing turbo. :thumbup:
I do applaud your turbo project though. Budget wise and constructiveness. :thumbup:
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 01:38 AM
There is a reason for the big price difference right there. I would pay for the extra 1500rpm earlier spool of a ball bearing turbo. :thumbup:
I do applaud your turbo project though. Budget wise and constructiveness. :thumbup:
A GT40R is not going to spool at 2,000 rpm on a 2.5L motor. This wasn't really a Holset H1E vs GT40R performance thread, even though on paper they're near identical other than BB vs JB. $400 shipped vs $1800 is a HUGE difference... I think the GT40R would probably spool around 3000 rpm instead of 3800rpm, is that worth $1200? Not to me.
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 01:49 AM
A GT40R is not going to spool at 2,000 rpm on a 2.5L motor. This wasn't really a Holset H1E vs GT40R performance thread, even though on paper they're near identical other than BB vs JB. $400 shipped vs $1800 is a HUGE difference... I think the GT40R would probably spool around 3000 rpm instead of 3800rpm, is that worth $1200? Not to me.
Actually I was thinking that the GT35R would be closer in performance to the H1E, considering the peak flow capacity and the compressor inlet size.
And yes, $400 vs ~$800-900 for a GT35R is a big difference...
Shuasha
10-23-2006, 01:53 AM
Uhhh... GT35R will cost you about $1200. :)
It's worth every penny though.
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 02:00 AM
Uhhh... GT35R will cost you about $1200. :)
It's worth every penny though.
Depends on who you know... ;) :devillook
Shuasha
10-23-2006, 02:05 AM
Depends on who you know... ;) :devillook
In that case I need to get to know some people you know. ;)
J/K, awesome deal if you can get it!
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 02:20 AM
In that case I need to get to know some people you know. ;)
J/K, awesome deal if you can get it!
I am still debating TS or Turbo, that is how decisive I am. I would love to have the insane HP, but at the same time I am looking forward to doing a lot of HPDEs next year. I guess a turbo would work well, we'll see.
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 02:53 AM
The H1E flows 72 lb/min. A GT35R will not flow that.
e36'n
10-23-2006, 03:48 AM
They're journal bearing, but my car (M50 Non vanos) has no problem spooling max boost (9.5 psi for now) at ~3800 rpm in 2nd gear.
In 2nd gear?
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 04:28 AM
The H1E flows 72 lb/min. A GT35R will not flow that.
Well, Garrett says it flows up to 60lbs/min... then of course Garrett also says that it is a 600bhp turbo in it's 1.02 A/R turbine on a 4.5L engine and we've seen CC make 830bhp with it using it's .82 A/R turbine on a 2.8L. - go figure. :dunno
I think the GT35R is in the same league as the H1E, but that's my opinion.
/OT
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 01:06 PM
Right but H1E @ 70.1 lb/min is not the same as a GT35R @ 60 lb/min
EEEEeeee36
10-23-2006, 07:46 PM
Right but H1E @ 70.1 lb/min is not the same as a GT35R @ 60 lb/min
My point is that the GT35R is highly underrated, and that the performance is such that you can make similar power levels with a GT35R as you could with an H1E (if not more with the GT35R)...I wasn't arguing the stats. But that's just my opinion. I look forward to seeing what kind of power levels you can achieve with that turbo! :thumbup:
5mall5nail5
10-23-2006, 08:03 PM
I was just saying that the H1E on paper is closer to a GT40R not a GT35R.
I was just saying that the H1E on paper is closer to a GT40R not a GT35R.
???
A GT35R(GT3582R) has a bigger compressor wheel than the GT4082R you keep comparing your H1E to.
GT3582R = 56 trim 82mm major dia.
GT4082R = 50 trim 82mm major dia.
The first number in the Garrett numbering scheme refers to the turbine wheel, so the GT40xxR series have bigger turbine wheels at 77mm inducer vs. 68mm inducer for the GT35xxR series.
SiGmA
10-24-2006, 01:36 AM
I am still debating TS or Turbo, that is how decisive I am. I would love to have the insane HP, but at the same time I am looking forward to doing a lot of HPDEs next year. I guess a turbo would work well, we'll see.Jesse, no debate, turbo all the way. And you have an email to reply to me about :)
5mall5nail5
10-24-2006, 01:54 AM
Def, I am not talking about wheel size. A GT40R supports more HP than a GT35R. And my turbo flows as much as the larget GT40R... therefore....
MrBlonde
10-24-2006, 03:37 AM
Def, I am not talking about wheel size. A GT40R supports more HP than a GT35R. And my turbo flows as much as the larget GT40R... therefore....
I'd rather have a Garrett ball bearing turbo that a Holset that's for sure. But when price is a big factor, the Holsets get the job done.
techno550
10-24-2006, 11:59 AM
Def, I am not talking about wheel size. A GT40R supports more HP than a GT35R. And my turbo flows as much as the larget GT40R... therefore....
You're assuming that the max flow numbers are quoted similarly.
One could be the maximum you can push through the turbo... ever.
and the other might be the end of what that manufacturer considers reasonable efficency for moving air.
All will be very dependent on pressure ratio.
5mall5nail5
10-24-2006, 12:02 PM
You're assuming that the max flow numbers are quoted similarly.
One could be the maximum you can push through the turbo... ever.
and the other might be the end of what that manufacturer considers reasonable efficency for moving air.
All will be very dependent on pressure ratio.
I guess, Techno, but why would a manufacturer say it will flow 60 lb/hr when it can do more, if it can do more? People build race engines with these turbos, you'd think they want accurate information.
This is all besides the point... the original point of posting these pictures was to just give people an idea how large a H1E is compared to something people are familiar with, such as a GT40R. Additionally, they flow very very similar numbers and the Holset was $400.
techno550
10-24-2006, 12:50 PM
I guess, Techno, but why would a manufacturer say it will flow 60 lb/hr when it can do more, if it can do more? People build race engines with these turbos, you'd think they want accurate information.
This is all besides the point... the original point of posting these pictures was to just give people an idea how large a H1E is compared to something people are familiar with, such as a GT40R. Additionally, they flow very very similar numbers and the Holset was $400.
If a turbo manufacturer has a turbo thats good (efficient) to 60 lb/min, they probably also have one thats good to 70, one for 90, etc...
I don't see why one would quote "this is the max it can flow, ever" versus the "we recommend this for applications up to". You can flow enough to make 400 hp on a T3 super 60, but garrett doesn't recommend it.
Accurate information would be a compressor map. And you would think that people would want that.
I saw the pictures, and I did indeed note that it has physically large housings. That has nothing to do with flow.
I also haven't seen real flow numbers for the holset.
MR2liter
10-24-2006, 12:56 PM
GT40r is a very nice turbo
e36'n
10-24-2006, 02:15 PM
I'd rather have a Garrett ball bearing turbo that a Holset that's for sure. But when price is a big factor, the Holsets get the job done.
x2
When you can get virtually whatever size of Holset you want for ~$400-600 new though, it's a no brainer imo. Although they haven't really been tested much on BMW's, the DSM/WRX/Honda guys have good numbers for them.
Andreas made huge numbers with the same turbo that Urinemachine is using iirc, so one would assume that turbo will work well in a similar application. It's all hearsay until they've been actually used on our vehicles and we have solid numbers to prove it.
mazur
10-24-2006, 04:02 PM
Well, it's not helping Holset in selling their turbo's by not providing any compressor maps. I think I've seen maybe one.:shifty
Turbojettamk4
10-24-2006, 06:49 PM
that is my GT40/40r, a couple more pic of it.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/t/ptd5004/pics/corrado/gt40401.jpg
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/t/ptd5004/pics/corrado/gt40403.jpg
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/t/ptd5004/pics/corrado/gt40404.jpg
5mall5nail5
10-24-2006, 07:21 PM
Well, it's not helping Holset in selling their turbo's by not providing any compressor maps. I think I've seen maybe one.:shifty
LOL Holset doesn't need help selling their turbos! They are the most widely used turbo on any diesel motor application!
I worked at a transit company over the summer and every bus had an HX35, 40, or 50 on it.
FWIW - Garrett gives a "flow rating" to a turbo at either 60 or 65% compressor efficiency. They can flow more before the inlet completely chokes.
Me thinks the H1E max flow you quoted is with the compressor inlet choked based on the inducer diameter.
techno550
10-24-2006, 08:30 PM
LOL Holset doesn't need help selling their turbos! They are the most widely used turbo on any diesel motor application!
I worked at a transit company over the summer and every bus had an HX35, 40, or 50 on it.
Diesel applications are generally quite different than gasoline applicaitons as far as the turbocharger is concerned. The principle behind them is very similar, but the environment is very different.
FWIW - Garrett gives a "flow rating" to a turbo at either 60 or 65% compressor efficiency. They can flow more before the inlet completely chokes.
Me thinks the H1E max flow you quoted is with the compressor inlet choked based on the inducer diameter.
Thats kinda what I said, but more concise. :)
e36'n
10-24-2006, 08:56 PM
Diesel applications are generally quite different than gasoline applicaitons as far as the turbocharger is concerned. The principle behind them is very similar, but the environment is very different.
Definitely agree with that.
Me thinks the H1E max flow you quoted is with the compressor inlet choked based on the inducer diameter.
Can you explain that a bit further as to why you think that? Do the compressor maps show that or...?
5mall5nail5
10-24-2006, 09:01 PM
Diesel applications are generally quite different than gasoline applicaitons as far as the turbocharger is concerned. The principle behind them is very similar, but the environment is very different.
Techno - you missed my point. I said Holset is a DOMINATOR in the diesel market - they do not need "help" selling their turbos as someone stated before. They are the OE turbo on 99% of diesel motors. I know the applications are different I was merely saying the company is generally not interested in aftermarket gasoline motors...
Can you explain that a bit further as to why you think that? Do the compressor maps show that or...?
I haven't seen an H1E compressor map, but from experience I know it's going to be tough flowing 70 lb/min of air through that inducer diameter with atmospheric pressure as the driving force.
Look at the GT4082R map that has similar compressor wheel diameters to the H1E and look how efficiency just hits a "brick wall" very suddenly. This is a sign that the compressor is starting to get close to choked flow.
...and for those who say different wheels of the same size perform differently, that's true, but once you choke the inlet(i.e. the air is going sonic there), you absolutely will not flow more no matter how fancy your compressor wheel is. That's why Supra guys always refer to their turbos via the inducer diameter when going for big power, as that will ultimately give you an idea of where the max ceiling is of the compressor.
techno550
10-25-2006, 11:59 AM
UM, do you have any more info on the turbo? model number or the likes?
5mall5nail5
10-25-2006, 03:29 PM
I will see if there are any more #'s on the unit
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