E36 Steering rack question, more angle?

[BrandC]

This is probably a longshot, but has anyone tried inserting spacers onto the inner tie-rod threads to E36 steering racks? The idea is drawn from the "Battle Version" steering rack spacers for AE86's to increase steering angle a few degrees.

http://www.battleversion.com/

It might be as simple as machining spacers, but I'm wondering if anyone who road races has tried to increase steering angle. Thanks!

[Steve J.]

Increasing steering angle? You mean increasing the angle of the wheel at full lock?

In road racing in Gt/Touring cars you pretty much only approach full lock in the paddock. If you hit full lock on the track you got some issues, or you are trying to pull out of a spin Seth Thomas style and having an awesome drift/save :)

I am able to get around most tracks, including 180* turns without letting go of the steering wheel on a normal e36 rack.

In fact, there are Steering rack limiters that people use because there is no need for that extra angle, and it can save the brake ducts from getting beaten while in the paddock (and possible tire rub).

[B.Watts]

It might be as simple as machining spacers, but I'm wondering if anyone who road races has tried to increase steering angle.

There's really no need for increased steering angle on a road race car. Sounds like a drifting mod.

That said, would this mod make the steering "quicker"? I'm trying to envision it in my mind, but it's not working for some reason.

[Steve J.]

It won't quicken it like this dohickie job:

http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/25/63/ac_1_b.JPG

[M52 POWER!]

I don't see the correlation from the AE86 steering rack mod to adding more steering angle they are completely different things. Do you mean less turns of the steering wheel for the same amount of steering angle? If so you'll want a Z3 steering rack...

Adding a spacer onto the tie rods would toe out the wheels?

[B.Watts]

I don't see the correlation from the AE86 steering rack mod to adding more steering angle they are completely different things.
I believe it works by moving the inner pivit point of the tie-rod further out by increasing the length of the steering shaft, which allows the pivot point to pivot more, resulting in more steering angle? I'm having trouble picturing the geometry in my mind right now...must be the time of the night.

[BrandC]

M52 power: I am not looking for quicker ratios, but I do understand the Z3/M3 steering racks have smaller ratios (3/3.5:1 respectively).

Yes this is primarily a drifting modification, I was just curious if anyone was familiar with steering rack spacers. This is how it was explained to me just a while ago by various drifters who employ the Battle Version spacers on their drift cars.

The steering rack moves side to side a given distance, say 2.7 turns on a Z3 rack. Each side has an inner tie rod connected to the rack, and by adding spacers in between the actual rack and both inner tie rods you have effectively added length to the tie rod. Also, you have "added" length to the rack itself that pushes the tie rods, meaning it now will take more turns (3.0) to go lock to lock. So now you should have toe-in and you can correct this by shortening the outer tie rod. The benefit is, your steering rack can now travel more distance, meaning it can push/pull the wheel further in or out respectively.

The main benefit to this is when you have severe oversteer, there is a limit to how much you can countersteer. This allows more room for correction and countersteer input, allowing more aggressive angle in a corner entry when drifting.

Hopefully this helped, and I'm going to investigate whether I can add spacers to BMW steering racks. I might experiment on a regular E36 non-M/Z steering rack.

[M52 POWER!]

Interesting, I thought the rack would be mechanically limited (internal gearing) to move any further but that makes sense if it's simply the length that is the limiting factor.

[HoJo]

This would work, but only in one direction. If you tried to do it to both sides you would just be, in effect, lengthening the inner tie rod and shortening the outer tie rod, canceling each other out.

[GGray]

I have one of those reducers on my E30 M3....less than 2 turns lock to lock:evil2

[HSCC///M3]

...you would just be, in effect, lengthening the inner tie rod and shortening the outer tie rod, canceling each other out.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

You would need to move the outer-tie-rod-to-steering-knuckle attachment point closer to the pivot to increase the steering angle/ratio. A quicker rack or reduction gear unit would only quicken the ratio, not increase the maximum angle.

[Steve J.]

I have one of those reducers on my E30 M3....less than 2 turns lock to lock:evil2
Which one did you use? Also which ratio, 1.5 or 2:1?

If its 2 turns, sounds like 1.5:1.

The BIllet one from colemand is nice, and very lightweight.

[BrandC]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

You would need to move the outer-tie-rod-to-steering-knuckle attachment point closer to the pivot to increase the steering angle/ratio. A quicker rack or reduction gear unit would only quicken the ratio, not increase the maximum angle.

Although it seems like I made the correlation, I did not say a quicker rack was going to increase maximum angle.

Initially I thought that adding a spacer to the inner tie rod/shortening the outer tie rod to fix the toe-in would cancel/null the spacer modification. It is an abstract concept that is hard to grasp at first, but maybe I'll try and clarify a bit more.

When you turn the steering wheel and reach the "lock position", the outer tie rod is not what limits the maximum angle of the steering. The length of the entire tie rod determines if the wheel is toe in/out, that is all. The length of the CENTER SHAFT inside the steering rack is what limits the steering angle. The center shaft is connected to both of the inner tie rods, and each inner tie rod can only move so far inside/out of the steering rack (see inner tie rod boot install). Once you are in the lock position, the inner tie rod cannot move any further into the rack (and push out the other inner tie rod respectively), so by adding a spacer in BETWEEN the inner tie rod and the center shaft, you effectively lengthen the center shaft now. The inner tie rod can now move inward/outward further than before, allowing the wheel to be pulled in/pushed outward more as well.

Hope that helped!

[HSCC///M3]

Although it seems like I made the correlation, I did not say a quicker rack was going to increase maximum angle.

Initially I thought that adding a spacer to the inner tie rod/shortening the outer tie rod to fix the toe-in would cancel/null the spacer modification. It is an abstract concept that is hard to grasp at first, but maybe I'll try and clarify a bit more.

When you turn the steering wheel and reach the "lock position", the outer tie rod is not what limits the maximum angle of the steering. The length of the entire tie rod determines if the wheel is toe in/out, that is all. The length of the CENTER SHAFT inside the steering rack is what limits the steering angle. The center shaft is connected to both of the inner tie rods, and each inner tie rod can only move so far inside/out of the steering rack (see inner tie rod boot install). Once you are in the lock position, the inner tie rod cannot move any further into the rack (and push out the other inner tie rod respectively), so by adding a spacer in BETWEEN the inner tie rod and the center shaft, you effectively lengthen the center shaft now. The inner tie rod can now move inward/outward further than before, allowing the wheel to be pulled in/pushed outward more as well.


That still won't make the wheels turn farther. Even after adding spacers between the inner tie rods & the "center shaft", the steering rack will still stop moving at the same place. I think this site (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/steering2.htm) will help you visualize it.

[BrandC]

HSCC///M3: So you're telling me that professional and novice drifters who are employing these spacers are not getting more wheel angle?

What you just said about the rack "stopping", that is what the spacers do. They extend the "stopper" on the center shaft so that the rack can move back/forth a further distance, thus increasing the amount of turns lock to lock. The tie rods are still the same length, but when the driver turns the wheel to one lock position, it is able to suck in/push out the wheel a little further than before b/c the rack can move a further distance side-to-side. Anyway I may not be explaining it well at all, or maybe I don't understand it. All I do know there are many steering parts like this specifically built for more wheel angle, and they work.

Thanks for the link though, always good to keep learning. Instead of debating whether or not it works, maybe I'll just ask elsewhere since nobody seems to think these spacers will work.

[HSCC///M3]

OK, I looked more closely at the AE86 product and things are starting to make sense now. The reason that kit works is because the AE86's rack has extra teeth that aren't used when at full lock. Putting spacers on the ends of the rack allows you to use all of the teeth. If this is the case on BMWs, then yes, something similar would work.

Also note, however, that it says you must remove the power steering components (because the rack will now move too far for the seals to hold p/s fluid in the proper chambers). Ditching power steering on an AE86 is probably fine, but I doubt it would be much fun on the significantly heavier e36.

[BrandC]

Yeah on an E36 street driven car, this would be unpractical. But for a track-only E30 318is, I don't think it will much of a chore to steer at slow speeds.

Hopefully a Z3 rack will have extra teeth (thanks for pointing that out!) to use for extra angle. I read the 318is takes 4.4 turns lock-to-lock and is not countersteer friendly.

[HSCC///M3]

So I guess you're building a drifting project? Cool!!! You don't really see too many Bimmers in drifting which is too bad because a well balanced chassis and precise steering systems make these cars perfect for drifting.

Good luck with your project!!

[BrandC]

I hope to bring more pride to 318is owners and fans, and to hopefully show people that it does not take much to actually build a drift car. There isn't much of a drifting fanbase, maybe that will change?