Class action lawsuit over rear subframe failure?

[Dragon M]

Let me start this out by saying that I'm a big fan of BMW, I own 3 of their cars ('00 M Coupe, '00 M Roadster, and a '79 320/6) none were purchased new, but we all buy what we can afford. I lust after an M5, and have no doubt that when I can afford one, I will buy one and replace the coupe as a daily driver, I am seriously considering buying an E36 M3 or E46 M3 as a replacement for our Lexus IS300. Here's what I don't like; having the rear subframe fail on my wife's CPO'ed Roadster (owned for 2 years and ~6,000 miles), to also know that MANY people on this board are suffering from the same issue, to know that my Coupe WILL also fail at some point in the future, and know that BMWUSA really doesn't much care.

Let me say that I've talked to my dealer, and I've approached BMW with my concerns (really, OUR concerns considering how many cars are failing) and got some less than satisfactory responses. Here's a direct quote from an email from bmwusa.com regarding the rear subframe failure on the Wife's Roadster "Our research indicates this problem with the rear subframe was a result of an external influence, not a defect in the workmanship or materials. Therefore, this problem would not have been covered under warranty if the warranty were still applicable. Regrettably, we are unable to offer any additional assistance in this matter. I apologize if this answer falls short of your expectations." Falling short of my expectations is an understatment, but I thought this warranted a follow-up call to BMW. On my follow-up call I was told that BMW has "Investigated EVERY instance of rear subframe failure on the Z3's and EVERY instance has been caused by racing." I said: "No exceptions? Every time? Because you see, while this car has seen 5-10 Autocrosses in the time I've owned it you're telling me that was enough to damage the rear subframe THIS badly?" The response: "Every case has been due to racing."

So...EVERY case of rear subframe failure is due to racing, 5-10 Autocrosses MAY be enough to destroy the rear subframe on BMW's M-Class car. Would it not stand to reason that if 5-10 Autocrosses will do that much damage, what would say...50 or 60 thousand miles on the poorly maintained roads in Southern California do to the rear subframe of the car? Is it reasonable to expect that when I buy a car with an original purchase price of $45k+ that it would last 100,000 miles without major frame damage?

I realize that posting this here may not be the most popular decision, but this is where everyone comes when they have issues. This is where we all lament the damage to our cars, and the expense of repairing these cars that we love. This is where we all talk to Randy, who's developed a simple (not an easy install, but the concept is obvious when you look at it) yet elegant solution to the problem that so many have had with their cars, and so many have yet to have with other cars.

So after this long tirade, the question is...how many of you would be interested in a class-action lawsuit against BMW for this issue? I'm not interested in making money, I'm interested in getting a decent solution to a major problem that many of us are going to face with our cars. I've spoken with a highly recommended Lemon Law/Consumer Protection/Automobile Fraud attorney who's interested in the case and wants to know how many people this has affected, and how many would be interested in joining a suit. The items I'm most interested in would be someone who's having issues with a car that's still under original manufacturer warranty, not CPO warranty.

Thanks

Devin

[IslandS62]

Good luck Devin. I would be very interested in supporting you in this. If I can do anything to help you please let me know. I have two MCoupes, one off warranty and one on, but neither have had rear subframe issues to date. I know it may be only a matter of time though. Anything to get BMW NA to publicly recognize this problem will be valuable to all of us.

Are there any statistics of affected vehicles at this time? Does anyone really know how many cars have failed so far? A lot has been made of it, but are we talking a percentage of one percent? A few percent? 10%?

[MFaust]

Where do I sign?

[count_schemula]

It has not affected a large number of cars, although there is no real evidence that every car may not suffer from it.

It also seems like the threshold for a "recall" is fairly high. Many recalls are done "voluntarily." Recalls are ALWAYS economic decisions. Recalls only happen if the potential of damages lawsuits from the defect are high, or if the harm to reputation is high. Otherwise, they could care less.

I think the subframe failures pretty much fall under the BMW could care less category.

This matters in the context of a class action lawsuit because of the type of uphill battle it represents. Have a lot of subframes failed? No. Has anyone been harmed? No.

I'm all for a lawsuit that sole forced BMW to retrofit a solution, but, all things considered, it seems pretty unlikely to get and action from BMW.

The only people affected by the problem are the people who suffer the failure, and the people who try to sell a Z3 to someone who is aware of the problem.

I think the problem is even more widespread in the E36, but it looks like BMW will just say that the use exceeded the design parameters. Satisfactory answer? Nope.

What is sad is, they would spend more money defending against the lawsuit than to fix the problem. The strategy should be to bring the lawsuit and quickly rush to settle. But they'd prolly fight it, just to avoid a flood of other lawwuits.

Still, where do I sign?

[JeffBlue]

No problems yet on my 1999 MRoadster but wouldn't want to experience it. I can understand your frustration in dealing with BMWUSA. They should be held liable and make them fix the problem. I will keep checking on this forum for updates.

[SexualChocolate]

I'll sign.

Riaz

[chip4]

I don’t have the subframe issue (yet) other wise I would sign up for this in a heartbeat if I did have this issue I find it highly unlikely that BMW will do anything about it.

Cause and effect. I personally think with this issue BMW doesn’t care about their quality or “making it right” for them its all about profits –which they have already made, you bought the car dint you?. If your Class action suit yields little to no satisfactory solution -DO NOT subsidize BMW by buying their products –tell all your friends of your experience tell them like it is, they have obviously gotten away with it, doing this will surely affect any car buying decisions in the future affecting BMW business. If a company cares so little about you, why would care about them? It may or may not force BMW to rethink about the way they handle their quality issues.

[segue007]

I was at the beginning stages of this issue when I had the rear re-enforced. I saw the rust around the spot welds and the pulling away of the spot welds. It cost me over $700 and I am not sure if that will keep the rear together. I may have to get Randy's kit if this does not work........and I have never tracked this car, so BMWNA statement that this happens to cars that have been tracked is a bunch of s#@!.

Please, where do I sign?

[segue007]

I don’t have the subframe issue (yet) other wise I would sign up for this in a heartbeat if I did have this issue I find it highly unlikely that BMW will do anything about it.

Cause and effect. I personally think with this issue BMW doesn’t care about their quality or “making it right” for them its all about profits –which they have already made, you bought the car dint you? If your Class action suit yields little to no satisfactory solution -DO NOT subsidize BMW by buying their products –tell all your friends of your experience tell them like it is, they have obviously gotten away with it –then doing this will surely affect any car buying decisions in the future affecting BMW business. If a company cares so little about you, why would care about them? It may or may not force BMW to rethink about the way they handle their quality issues.


You will see this issue with your car sooner or later. You may have it now and just don't see it. The spot welds in mind where just beginning to pull away and I could see a little rust around them. Check your trunk and if you can feel any indentation over any of the spot welds then you are at the beginning stages of this issue. It will just be a matter of time from that point on. We all will see this issue because it is a poor design.

[zeromagnus]

so...we need someone to die due to rear subframe failure...anyone willing to take one for the team? :help

Though I'll join and give any support I can, even if it is just being another name on a sheet of paper, I honestly don't believe BMWNA will do anything about this issue.

Which is why I have Randy's fix and I'm going to go through with the reinforcement and I-beam install regardless of where this goes.
Even if we are able to receive a positive response eventually, my plan to enter the realm of FI relatively soon greatly encourages me to beef up one of the major known weak points of our car.

I think it would be interesting if we informed more individuals of this engineering flaw.
Afterall, it cannot be libel if we are just stating the facts, and letting the individual make up his/her own mind, can it?

The more negative attention you can bring to the issue, the more cooperative BMW will be and open to settling the matter rather quickly.
Afterall, who wants to buy a nice, pretty M5, and 60k miles later the rear subframe fails. Most bimmer owners just want to buy the car and not have any issues whatsoever.

And I think this issue (and the fact that BMWNA is not willing to fix a known problem) will interest potential owners,
and perhaps lead them to a car/manufacturer that doesn't have such an engineering defect/oversight known to the general public.

:evil2 :evil2 :evil2

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society.
Edward Bernays

[JBgotM]

my rear end is cracked, I'll sign

I had Randy look at my car with about 64k on the clock and the mount has a crack split 3 ways in the mount. I haven't pulled the trunk to check for pulled spot welds, but I am speculating there are a few of those as well.

The best option ofr an outcome to me would be is BMW commissioned (paid) Randy to fix all subframes that cracked. Wouldn't that be awesome? but that's my pipe dream for this morning.

[clintjg]

Interesting. BMW here in NoVA actually 'fixed' a board members car well outside the warranty range when he sighted saftey concerns. I think the car had well over 70k/mi at the time.

[///MDex]

Where do I sign?.

FWIW, I read in Roundel this past weekend where BMW has covered floor pan / diff carrier / subframe repairs under warranty in previous models. I don’t have it in front of me now, but can confirm the text later tonight.

[Adrian G.]

Signed.

[Glenn95]

Ok, so we all want to sign up. What's the next step? Anyone?

[namike]

I would think the first thing would be to get as many as people as possible to check for the problem. Obviously to do this properly the trunk will need to be disassembled, and the car will need to be put up in the air to check the undercarriage of the vehicle.

All details about the vehicle, including DETAILED pictures, would need to be documented somewhere (like on the Count's website).

I mean, I checked out the Count's site just this week, there was only a HANDFUL of cases on there. Obviously that is not going to cut it.

In short, we would need the people to come forward, do the leg work, and put in some effort towards the cause.

Just my $.02

EDIT: Of course I'm in :buttrock

Mike

[QikSilver]

An attorney, that's what we need next.

[namike]

An attorney, that's what we need next.

No, we need the DOCUMENTATION to present to the lawyer first, then we can get the attorney involved.

Edit: Sorry, did not mean to come off so "ass-holeish" :cool

[CDCJON551]

Where do I sign?
totally agree. BMW should have a recall and fix this problem

[NickC]

That "only due to racing" quote or whatever is complete BS, just like everyone on here knows already.
I sold my last ///M roadster to Riley and he experienced the subframe cracking itself only a few weeks after buying my car. There was absolutely NO racing history whatsoever in my car's past. I never auto-x'd, never road raced, and only went to the dragstrip a few times with about 10 or so total launches, and none of those had clutch dumps over 3500rpm's.
That racing excuse just pisses me off to no end and it's such a damned cop out. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. :mad

[///MDex]

I think the responsibility should be on BMW, not us.

If a recall is issued, we would bring our cars into the dealership, and put up on their lift, on their time, at their cost. Not my time and money to prove there is a problem.

[IslandS62]

Through the club I have a straight communication line to Mike Miller and Mark Calabrese of Roundel. I'll try and communicate to them that we need the issue brought out in the open more. Maybe some more visible publicity might make BMWmore responsive. Mike Miller also does the tech pages for Bimmer.

Anyone want to write up the info to send to them? I have no experience with actual breakage.

[namike]

I think the responsibility should be on BMW, not us.

If a recall is issued, we would bring our cars into the dealership, and put up on their lift, on their time, at their cost. Not my time and money to prove there is a problem.

I agree with you 100% on IF a recall is issued. As of right now, we have nothing. We need to assemble our "case" ourselves, unforunetely :shifty to bring this issue further into the spotlight.

--Mike

[6i9]

I would like to see BMW take action as much as the next guy.

But I'm thinking it'll only be resolved, if at all, on a case by case basis by BWMNA. Such is the experience of a few Coupe owners on roadfly/other boards.

[JBgotM]

Through the club I have a straight communication line to Mike Miller and Mark Calabrese of Roundel. I'll try and communicate to them that we need the issue brought out in the open more. Maybe some more visible publicity might make BMWmore responsive. Mike Miller also does the tech pages for Bimmer.

Anyone want to write up the info to send to them? I have no experience with actual breakage.
IIRC, Randy did a writeup for either Bimmer or Roundel on his fix and they published or were giong to publish it.

There is no doubt, Randy has the best knowledge of the issue, but I won't volunteer him for a write-up. I think most of the info needed for a decent writeup is on Count's website.

[NickC]

IIRC, Randy did a writeup for either Bimmer or Roundel on his fix and they published or were giong to publish it.

There is no doubt, Randy has the best knowledge of the issue, but I won't volunteer him for a write-up. I think most of the info needed for a decent writeup is on Count's website.


I don't know Randy personally and he seems like a really nice guy, but it would put him in sort of a tough position to do a writeup for us. His hardwork and dedication seems to be making him some nice money fixing our cars, and he'd obviously lose that income if BMW were to issue a recall or agree to fix our cars. I wouldn't put any pressure on him whatsoever.

[JBgotM]

I don't know Randy personally and he seems like a really nice guy, but it would put him in sort of a tough position to do a writeup for us. His hardwork and dedication seems to be making him some nice money fixing our cars, and he'd obviously lose that income if BMW were to issue a recall or agree to fix our cars. I wouldn't put any pressure on him whatsoever.
oh I completely agree, I have been to visit him a couple times and am scheduling a 3rd trip. He is the one person that could lose business from this, but honestly, even if this venture is successful, I don't see the repairs happening soon and the list of people he has will still be getting the work done by him.

[///MDex]

Wait. I don't want Randy to write it either, BUT. Randy could license his kit to BMWNA. Heellooo $$$$ :D

[JBgotM]

Wait. I don't want Randy to write it either, BUT. Randy could license his kit to BMWNA. Heellooo $$$$ :D
yeah, I know, thats what I was alluding to this morning. Considering he developed the kit and proposed it to a BMWNA rep who approved the work, you would think it could be an option.

[Dragon M]

Here's an update...

I work in TV news so getting access to a couple of great attornies is not a problem. I am already in talks with a firm here in San Diego with an impressive success record Rosner, Law, and Mansfield (http://www.rosnerand law.com/) .

The lead attorney, Hal Rosner, is definitely interested in taking the case. We are ironing out the details on how we want to proceed as well as determining how many this affects. Once I have gotten the procedure straightened out, we will post a link where you can send us your info (year, model, miles, problems, driving style, pics?). I'll update on this board as more information becomes available.

My feeling on this thing is that we DON'T want BMW to "fix" this problem, since it will only repair the cars back to spec (which will fail again). We want them to pay for it to be fixed properly (Randy's kit??). I know this is all a dream but I figure I'll push for the moon and settle for somewhere near that.

Thanks for hanging in there guys!

- Devin's wife

[///MDex]

Sounds like a great start to me.

I’d also research how the 350Z guys got their fix for their front camber issue remedied.

I think it was a class action suit, or the threat of one, that got Nissan to implement the fix.

[mpire]

The problem with a class action suit, is you really need thousands of cars to make it worth while for an attorney to take. If they dont make any money, its not worth the work. I have asked an attorney that is employed by my mother's law firm to look into it. He is getting back to me.

[6i9]

My friend told me Subaru owners tried shoving Subaru NA in a corner over the WRX tranny problems. In the end, the guy who filed the suit lost and owed Subaru $75k or something in court fees or whatnot.

[Dragon M]

As far as the number of cars involved...I think we'll find there are more of us than they realize. We don't need thousands...just a good number of compelling cases. Given that these weren't extremely high production cars, it won't nearly as many of us to demonstrate a high percentage of failure.


-Dev's wife

[jacus]

I think the responsibility should be on BMW, not us.

If a recall is issued, we would bring our cars into the dealership, and put up on their lift, on their time, at their cost. Not my time and money to prove there is a problem.


Good idea.
Whoever is experiencing the problem at this time should go to their BMW dealer, and ask for an estimate. They'll give you a write up. It would be a very nice and easy way of documenting your problem. Plus, you'll have a document that states what BMW intends to do to fix the problem.

[JBgotM]

My friend told me Subaru owners tried shoving Subaru NA in a corner over the WRX tranny problems. In the end, the guy who filed the suit lost and owed Subaru $75k or something in court fees or whatnot.
Surabu investigated the people with the claims and came up with "abuse" that was presented. That "abuse" was even cited to cars that were stock, but admitted to shifting hard at high rpm. Yeah, I know it sounds lame and it is. They used Subaru employees to search the message boards for the people making the claims and found anytime they talked about "racing" somebody or shifting hard at redline.

I know this by first hand account.

[JBgotM]

Good idea.
Whoever is experiencing the problem at this time should go to their BMW dealer, and ask for an estimate. They'll give you a write up. It would be a very nice and easy way of documenting your problem. Plus, you'll have a document that states what BMW intends to do to fix the problem.
yep, I am thinking of driving in and asking them to look at it.

[mcoupe4me]

Sign Me up.

[namike]

I think a mod should sticky this thread

:bj

[Glenn95]

:bj
Easy, there are women (woman) present.

[mpire]

Well, hmmm...

Put me on the list. I certainly havent tracked my car. So I am not worried about being caught abusing my car. Its only moved 2400 miles in the last year!

[Randy Forbes]

Through the club I have a straight communication line to Mike Miller and Mark Calabrese of Roundel. I'll try and communicate to them that we need the issue brought out in the open more. Maybe some more visible publicity might make BMWmore responsive. Mike Miller also does the tech pages for Bimmer.

Anyone want to write up the info to send to them? I have no experience with actual breakage.
I wrote and submitted an article to Bimmer (at Mike Miller's request) last January. Make some noise and maybe they'll publish it.

It's actually a "how to" article, but you wouldn't be fixing something if it couldn't be broken.

[Randy Forbes]

my rear end is cracked, I'll sign

I had Randy look at my car with about 64k on the clock and the mount has a crack split 3 ways in the mount. I haven't pulled the trunk to check for pulled spot welds, but I am speculating there are a few of those as well.

The best option ofr an outcome to me would be is BMW commissioned (paid) Randy to fix all subframes that cracked. Wouldn't that be awesome? but that's my pipe dream for this morning.

:D

[Dragon M]

I think my (lovely and talented) wife summed it up nicely, what she didn't mention is that we've already provided a PILE of paperwork to the lawyers, including numerous posts from here (and other message boards that are BMW related), a full print-out of the Count's website, all the complaints we could find that had been filed with the NHTSA (those are the REALLY damaging ones, if you have a subframe issue and want to make it known here's (http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.ee6733b87096a398d33a431046108a0c/) the place), and a bunch of articles from roundel stating that this is a well known issue.
Obviously, there are no guarantees of anything being done, or anything happenning but I'm willing to try to make something happen.

Thanks
Devin

[Randy Forbes]

You might want to check out post #12...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1272602#post1272602

[///MDex]

I'd like to see how their story 'the floor pan rips out due to racing' holds up in court.

What's the civil court standard? 'Beyond a reasonable doubt?' I bet a jury would see it our way.

[MJET]

Mine's not cracked, but sign me up anyway.

[skidder]

I don't see the repairs happening soon and the list of people he has will still be getting the work done by him.


Hmmmm, some 1/2 :crackbutt repair installed by a :nuts dealer, or a repair crafted by someone who actually owns and cares about the car. Not to hard to imagine who would do the better work. Personally, I don't trust a dealer to do an oil change anymore, let alone frame repair.

Even tho mine isn't bad - I'd be real curious to see where this goes.

[6i9]

Surabu investigated the people with the claims and came up with "abuse" that was presented. That "abuse" was even cited to cars that were stock, but admitted to shifting hard at high rpm. Yeah, I know it sounds lame and it is. They used Subaru employees to search the message boards for the people making the claims and found anytime they talked about "racing" somebody or shifting hard at redline.

I know this by first hand account.

Same thing Mistu did to EVO owners about some engine failure...they did a message board search on each case. Ridiculous.

[skidder]

Same thing Mistu did to EVO owners about some engine failure...they did a message board search on each case. Ridiculous.

Argh...companies need to spend more time engineering and less time trying to save a few pennies doing worthless stuff like that. As if you can't tell a overreved engine when you tear it down. If you build a performance car; expect it to be driven like one. Furthermore, if you break it - you buy it. People need to accept the consequences when they cause the failure. A redline is there for a reason. Design tollerance.

[skidder]

Surabu investigated the people with the claims and came up with "abuse" that was presented. .

Subaru has NO room to talk. They have been making substandard 4 cyl engines now for years. That 4 CYL "boxer" engine is a nightmare. Constant head gasket failures, low water pump life, cylinder scoring...the list goes on. It's rediculous that company would even balk at someone who has an engine problem related to one of those issues in that car. My friend took her Impreza in for it's maintence and it had a TON of problems (that they DID warranty it under good faith) - but the lot person that gave her a ride home TOLD her that they have at least 1 a DAY come in with the exact same head gasket/engine type failures for the last 3 years. Fast forward, 5 years later after they discovered these issues, when she was looking at getting a new car - she asks if the engines are "improved" and the dealer said "were not too sure". Needless to say, she no longer drives Subaru.

[Z3POWER]

being one of the first none MZ3 to have happen too and had it fixed and tried to get BMW to pay, I am willing to help out. You can see my write up on my website.
Rear Diff mount crack (http://www.z3power.net/Nfong_CrackFrame.html)

Lets get them!

[byl]

Argh...companies need to spend more time engineering and less time trying to save a few pennies doing worthless stuff like that.
.

[zeromagnus]

I think it would be appropriate if BMW gave us the option of having them fix the real subframe (which would basically just put off the problem to a later date) or give us reasonable compensation to fix it ourselves (I think 5g would be enough) and have us sign a waiver that since we took the matter into our own hands, any future rear subframe issues are the product of our oversight, and not BMW's...

[clintjg]

Or they could recognize Randy's fix for what it is: What it should have been from the factory.

[JBgotM]

I think it would be appropriate if BMW gave us the option of having them fix the real subframe (which would basically just put off the problem to a later date) or give us reasonable compensation to fix it ourselves (I think 5g would be enough) and have us sign a waiver that since we took the matter into our own hands, any future rear subframe issues are the product of our oversight, and not BMW's...
yep, have an independant quote from a BBB company like the guy from the fest, and compensate people and let them get it fixed wherever they choose.

Talk about a backlog in Randy's garage...... :eyecrazy DIBS!!! :lol

[Dnz]

Are you guys also keeping track of the E46's starting to get subframe issues now? I dont think its a series specific failure..more like a bad bmw habbit..

I forget who it was, but they posted up a vid showing their e46 subframe failure.. that sound is awful - like a twisting tin can.. :eek:

[2000Z3M]

im in, where do i sign? I have about 109,000 miles on my car and im sure ill have the subframe give out on me soon.

[zeromagnus]

yep, have an independant quote from a BBB company like the guy from the fest, and compensate people and let them get it fixed wherever they choose.

Talk about a backlog in Randy's garage...... :eyecrazy DIBS!!! :lol
Actually, I found an E36 owner who lives in Dallas as well, who does quite a bit of welding in his spare time (custom exhausts, full roll cages, etc).
I showed him the instruction booklet Randy sent me and I bought all the necessary parts, so I think we're going to attempt the fix ourselves in the near future.
If that goes well, then there would be another person with experience with this procedure who might also be a bit closer to where some of you guys live than Randy is.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not trying to take any work away from Randy, but I know how busy he is, and you would still have to buy the kit from him,
so I'm just trying to think of alternate solutions that meet everybody's needs.
It could even get to the point where we have a "Randy approved" installed in each state! Though I'm sure a lot of you would still want the master to do the job, but unfortunately, just not an option for some.

But I think we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here.

It might be a good idea to involve the E46s and E36s in this. We would certainly have more cases to use as proof of negligence on the part of BMW and it would also show the extent of the negligence, as well.
It would provide a more convincing (to the extent that the problem isn't caused by a bunch of overzealous Z3 drivers) case to any judge/jury.

[byl]

Pardon my ignorance with the american laws but can somebody that doesn't have the problem join the class action?

[zeromagnus]

Pardon my ignorance with the american laws but can somebody that doesn't have the problem join the class action?
CLASS ACTION SUIT - A lawsuit in which one or more parties file a complaint on behalf of themselves and all other people who are "similarly situated" (suffering from the same problem). Often used when a large number of people have comparable claims.

So I think it would depend on the original complaint brought against BMW. Or if we could get enough cases with so many different circumstances (driving style, mods or stock, 17 yr old boy or 70 yr old grandma, etc) that it cannot be denied that it is an inevitable problem that will occur on all of our cars. Afterall, isn't that the basis for a recall? The class action suit would be filed because BMW isn't willing to issue a voluntary recall.

[mpire]

Personally, I dont want to piss them off until after I get a new engine. So I am being very nice.

But my dealer did strip out my oil pan last time they did the $130 oil change.

[JBgotM]

Actually, I found an E36 owner who lives in Dallas as well, who does quite a bit of welding in his spare time (custom exhausts, full roll cages, etc).
I showed him the instruction booklet Randy sent me and I bought all the necessary parts, so I think we're going to attempt the fix ourselves in the near future.
If that goes well, then there would be another person with experience with this procedure who might also be a bit closer to where some of you guys live than Randy is.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not trying to take any work away from Randy, but I know how busy he is, and you would still have to buy the kit from him,
so I'm just trying to think of alternate solutions that meet everybody's needs.
It could even get to the point where we have a "Randy approved" installed in each state! Though I'm sure a lot of you would still want the master to do the job, but unfortunately, just not an option for some.

But I think we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here.

It might be a good idea to involve the E46s and E36s in this. We would certainly have more cases to use as proof of negligence on the part of BMW and it would also show the extent of the negligence, as well.
It would provide a more convincing (to the extent that the problem isn't caused by a bunch of overzealous Z3 drivers) case to any judge/jury.
I am pretty close to Randy now, but I will be moving to Florida later this year. I am trying to convince him to move to Florida too :devillook

[mpire]

Wow, thats cool. Yeah, he said something about moving to the tampa area once. I think he would like it here. Its paradise 9 months out of the year.

[JT///M3]

I'm in if and when the suit is ready!

[count_schemula]

Also, remember, a lot of class action lawsuits are like... You won! Ok, everyone gets $2 off their next purchase of a BMW and the lawyers get $1,000,000.

We sort of need to define what we'd want out of a class action. Personally, I don't think there is a chance in hell that we get to roll up to a BMW dealer, get an X5 loaner and come back in a week to an all new reinforced subframe.

[6i9]

Also, remember, a lot of class action lawsuits are like... You won! Ok, everyone gets $2 of their next purchase of a BMW and the lawyers get $1,000,000.

We sort of need to define what we'd want out of a class action. Personally, I don't think there is a chance in hell that we get to roll up to a BMW dealer, get an X5 loaner and come back in a week to an all new reinforced subframe.

Good look.

[irace1]

I don't have any signs of failure on my wife's car, but I'm in if there is legal action to correct the problem for all claiments.

[count_schemula]

I dunno bro... car looks a lil tracked... ;)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/465651/QFCCV-TEFVH-P1010053.JPG

[///Mmelmann]

I am definately interested in signing up for this. I took a couple of pics of the rust and crud generated from my subframe split. I later cleaned it up and sprayed over a previously attempted weld fix (but it's still splitting) with rustoleum spray paint. I am waiting to do a proper fix. Lets get this ball rolling!

[shopkins]

You might want to check out post #12...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1272602#post1272602

I haven't seen anyone comment on this yet but I think this deserves to be discussed. Do we really think that our lawyer team is better than whatever BMW's lawyer team will be? It's sad that they will spend so much money on a lawyer team rather then fixing the subframes but they do.

Also, I think we need to clarify who is part of this. I've read some people say we don't need that many incidents since it's a low production vechical. But we are going through the entire Z3 line - not just the coupes. Also people want to submit information on older BMW's through E46's. Now we have opened up A LOT of cars made and we have to show how significant this really is. Are we gathering data across all models or just Z3's?

Also anyone who has modded the car is pretty much out - esspecially anyone who has done a differential swap or added more power to the engine. I know about the law that the burden of proof is on the car manufactuer but that kind of stuff again always comes down to who has the better lawyer.

Steve

[count_schemula]

To do this for real, including the E36 and E46 sedans would prolly be wise. Then the fear for BMW is that they will suffer harm to their rep as a maker of cars that don't hold up. They only react to fear and harm, there will be no goodwill.

The only problem is... a lot of "normal" people are not on the boards, do not know whether they have the problem or that it even exists, and prolly drive a lot more gentle then us board junkies. And a lot of us board junkies have coilovers and engine mods like FDK and CAI and shark chips which just scream "not intended use."

We just need to realistically determine what the scope of the problem is and what we'd want out of an action.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the more glum I get regarding a solution from BMW. Randy... it's time to franchise. :D

[Randy Forbes]

... Frankly, the more I think about it, the more glum I get regarding a solution from BMW. Randy... it's time to franchise. :DInterestingly enough, I placed another order for the laser-cut parts this past Monday...

Funny, but the guys at my dealer thought the idea of me selling parts to BMW was terrific!

[Bavarian_6shot]

I will sign. :D Hate hearing that 'pop' whenever I get out of the car.

[JT///M3]

what we need is alot of negative publicity and then we will have BMWNA's attention to get some results

[JBgotM]

Interestingly enough, I placed another order for the laser-cut parts this past Monday...

Funny, but the guys at my dealer thought the idea of me selling parts to BMW was terrific!
There's no doubt that you would have more pull than the collective members of the Z3 board (without lawyers in the picture of course).

[dwm]

Interestingly enough, I placed another order for the laser-cut parts this past Monday...

Funny, but the guys at my dealer thought the idea of me selling parts to BMW was terrific!

That makes complete sense to me. What's easier... cutting the car in half to replace that very large piece in the rear, or doing it the right way with less cutting, welding and finishing? You know the answer, as does your dealer.
:)

I assume that if BMW wanted to buy 1000 units, you'd give 'em a small discount. :devillook

[Stobal]

nt

[WireWheels]

what we need is alot of negative publicity and then we will have BMWNA's attention to get some results
I think using BMW's own words against them would make a very good argument. It's been said that the Z coupe's original build intent was to strengthen the chassis flex so that M performance parts could be fitted, or words to that extent. Now that's a great sales pitch but it also admits a weakness. I've found that the sales dept and the engineering dept of BMW don't really know what the other is doing and the sales dept will try to turn a fault into a feature to cover their collective butts (see below). That statement, if it can be found who wrote it, could be turned around to bite them!

On a recent visit to Randy's he was kind enough to take a cursory look at my diff mount and was able to catch a fingernail on an edge where cracks usually develop. I plan to deburr/polish that area so there's no place for a crack to start/continue while fitting an M suspension takeoff that's in the works. If the crack continues, I think the doubled-up mount will be fine in my case but I haven't pulled the interior up to do planned mods and weld/lapjoint inspections. I don't think my 3.07 diff will make any diff mount ripping torque, but after seeing some mount tears, the whole design seems weak when you look at the thickness/design of the mount itself. Also, a weld hardens the metal at the joint making internal stresses in the metal that lead to cracks around the spotwelds when flexed. So, as has been said, it's really just a matter of when.

Now, if BMW would write off the repair cost into their advertising budget they would get so much word of mouth advertising they wouldn't be able to make cars fast enough! But you only get good WOM advertising by doing good work.

BMW recalled a cast aluminum motorcycle wheel that was made in the 70's and the free replacement is still applicable to any bike still using the affected "snowflake" design wheels. The dealer will of course have the history of the bike and do the freebie if needed. That's what I call good work. Hard to figure as I've never seen that failure (and BMW wheels are my biz), but it was considered a safety flaw. Perhaps that's the angle to take.

But having been bitten by the wheel design failure before, when confronted later with the 3-spoke wheels that bend easily, they said they designed it that way for safety, and denied all claims of an inferior product knowing that the word safety would make the DOT (cough, paper tiger, cough) weak in the knees. You see, in terms of law, showing the intent to do good may save them, and just having your fingerprint on the ASC button may be enough to void your warranty, metaphorically speaking.

[Randy Forbes]

what we need is alot of negative publicity and then we will have BMWNA's attention to get some results
Keep in mind, from an immediate standpoint, that will affect the resale value of your car more than it will affect BMW.

[Randy Forbes]

That makes complete sense to me. What's easier... cutting the car in half to replace that very large piece in the rear, or doing it the right way with less cutting, welding and finishing? You know the answer, as does your dealer.
:)

I assume that if BMW wanted to buy 1000 units, you'd give 'em a small discount. :devillook
I'm open to negotiations...

Don't you know that my laser-cutting source would love an order like that!

[Dragon M]

All right...to update (again). Talked to the lawyer today and here's where we are going to go with this. As you can imagine, there are a number of us with these problems all across the country and many laws in between that can truly fubar a nationwide class action suit, especially based on the nature and variety of damages with our cars. So what we're proposing is to get people together in California and pursue a case, and try to force BMW NA into doing something (anything) and try to set a precedent. **If** we're successful (and there's no guarantees there) then we'll have a case that BMW NA has been proven at fault in California and forced to do something about it. That should make it easier for all of you who aren't in CA to find somebody (or if we're really successful <wishful thinking> then we can press the case up to nationwide from there). The idea being to start small, with little victories to lead towards a big victory.

Again, there's no guarantees in any of this except for one: from what I can tell, those of us with M cars can pretty much expect the damage to happen at some point, and to pay between $3 and 5k (minimum) to have it fixed. We have a couple options...we can sit back and watch it happen, and be pissed off about it, or try to do something. Even if this goes nowhere (which is entirely possible) we can at least say we tried, and then evaluate our future vehicle purchases based on the outcome.

For now...those in the california area who have had problems, take note that we plan to move forward, for those in california who know someone who's had problems, please point them this way, for those elsewhere...my best recommendation is to wait and see where we go with this. It's a HUGE (read GIGANTIC) pain to get this rolling ahead, and there's still no guarantee of anything happening except you spending a lot of your time (and problably some of your money) in pursuit of something that may come to nothing.

Devin

[edit...damn I hate the lack of normal formatting for text]

[rjcoston]

Thanks. Good luck.

[WireWheels]

All right...to update (again). Talked to the lawyer today and here's where we are going to go with this.
Very good! I'm optimistic. I predict a large jump in the share price of RF Enterprises tomorrow! :D

[segue007]

Please keep us posted on the status of the lawsuite. I have filed a complaint with NHTSA. I hope that everyone that has this issue also files a complaint. We need to turn up the heat on BMWNA from all sides. That is the only way we may have a chance.

[bimmerZ]

Here is a list of E46 subframe failures, maybe you guys can join up with them.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=195602&page=21&pp=20&highlight=subframe+list

Good Luck!

[Randy Forbes]

All right...to update (again)...

... Again, there's no guarantees in any of this except for one: from what I can tell, those of us with M cars can pretty much expect the damage to happen at some point, and to pay between $3 and 5k (minimum) to have it fixed. We have a couple options...we can sit back and watch it happen, and be pissed off about it, or try to do something. Even if this goes nowhere (which is entirely possible) we can at least say we tried, and then evaluate our future vehicle purchases based on the outcome...

Devin

DragonM/Devin,

I just realized who you are ;)

[Dragon M]

Sorry I wasn't clearer earlier Randy...nor was my lovely wife. We ALL know who you are, and around our house...we just call you "The Fixer". Thanks for all your hard work and making the cars we love, the cars we can drive the way we love to.

[skidder]

Here is a list of E46 subframe failures, maybe you guys can join up with them.


Holy :eek: Maybe BMW should have just stuck to building engines...

[sgi4side]

I am in.....

[FateMaker]

I am one of the few coupe owners who managed to get BMW to goodwill repair my welds at ~65,000 mi. Of course nothing was done to strengthen the design to prevent future damage. BMW sent my coupe to a body shop where it was repaired to spec.

[felonious monk]

All right...to update (again). Talked to the lawyer today and here's where we are going to go with this. As you can imagine, there are a number of us with these problems all across the country and many laws in between that can truly fubar a nationwide class action suit, especially based on the nature and variety of damages with our cars. So what we're proposing is to get people together in California and pursue a case, and try to force BMW NA into doing something (anything) and try to set a precedent. **If** we're successful (and there's no guarantees there) then we'll have a case that BMW NA has been proven at fault in California and forced to do something about it. That should make it easier for all of you who aren't in CA to find somebody (or if we're really successful <wishful thinking> then we can press the case up to nationwide from there). The idea being to start small, with little victories to lead towards a big victory.

Again, there's no guarantees in any of this except for one: from what I can tell, those of us with M cars can pretty much expect the damage to happen at some point, and to pay between $3 and 5k (minimum) to have it fixed. We have a couple options...we can sit back and watch it happen, and be pissed off about it, or try to do something. Even if this goes nowhere (which is entirely possible) we can at least say we tried, and then evaluate our future vehicle purchases based on the outcome.

For now...those in the california area who have had problems, take note that we plan to move forward, for those in california who know someone who's had problems, please point them this way, for those elsewhere...my best recommendation is to wait and see where we go with this. It's a HUGE (read GIGANTIC) pain to get this rolling ahead, and there's still no guarantee of anything happening except you spending a lot of your time (and problably some of your money) in pursuit of something that may come to nothing.

Devin

[edit...damn I hate the lack of normal formatting for text]

So what about those who are in CA but don't have the problem yet?

[JT///M3]

Keep in mind, from an immediate standpoint, that will affect the resale value of your car more than it will affect BMW.

With all due respect, I intend on keeping my coupe forever :)

[MFaust]

I'm hoping that if this does go through (positive for us), that they will honor those that have modifications done to their cars. Even though the subframe failure happened to those w/ completely stock cars, you know they will use any modifications done to a car as an excuse to void warranty.

[JBgotM]

I'm hoping that if this does go through (positive for us), that they will honor those that have modifications done to their cars. Even though the subframe failure happened to those w/ completely stock cars, you know they will use any modifications done to a car as an excuse to void warranty.
My car ran out of "warranty" about a month before I bought it. Its about a design flaw, and possible safety issue which is independant of warranty and modifications. While you can't prove the problem with a modded car, if its proved on a unmodded car, then ALL cars can get the compensation for the fix.

[///MDex]

Remember, it’s the dealer’s responsibility to prove that the modification caused the failure. Something something Warranty Act.

Oversimplified, but my grounds would be:

If a non-modded car experiences the failure, the how it is possible to blame the failure on a modification. booya

[JBgotM]

Remember, it’s the dealer’s responsibility to prove that the modification caused the failure. Something something Warranty Act.

Oversimplified, but my grounds would be:

If a non-modded car experiences the failure, the how it is possible to blame the failure on a modification. booya
Moss-Magnusson Act

[byl]

Moss-Magnusson Act

Booya! :D

[mpire]

Ok guys. If your serious about this, then she would make a few calls. We have to settle out a reasonable request.

What are we looking to get? Dealerships to fix the car? An allowance to repair the car? Require they use Randy's kit? (hope its patented now!) If anyone here says they want 5 grand and a lollipop, then your not being realistic.

[JBgotM]

I would say option of they use Rand'y kit or allowance (so I can get Randy to do it himself).

[6i9]

Reasonably, the best we can probably get (if anything) is a factory-condition repair. Then again, not having to have to develop an expensive fix, they could easily use Randy's kit. Hopefully they'll pay for installation of the kit. I think that'd be as good as it'll get.

[gadperez]

Where do I sign?

[mpire]

Here is the contact information. I deleted the letter for fear of haveing typos on it or something. Please see the other post in this forum.

amwilliams004@direcway.com www.gulfcoastattorneys.com

[Adrian G.]

Keep us updated :cool

[mpire]

Everyone who is serious, needs to send her an email or a letter. You have to give written consent so she can represent you. In a case like this, it doesnt cost you anything, she gets a cut of any awards.

[LynxZ3r0]

I guess the question I have is, if it hasn't happened (yet) can we still get in on this? I only have 12k miles and already have Randy's kit sitting in my garage anticipating the failures.

[Adrian G.]

I guess the question I have is, if it hasn't happened (yet) can we still get in on this? I only have 12k miles and already have Randy's kit sitting in my garage anticipating the failures.

Look under the carpet in your trunk for any broken spot weld in the trunk floor. I have two :shifty

[Adrian G.]

Everyone who is serious, needs to send her an email or a letter. You have to give written consent so she can represent you. In a case like this, it doesnt cost you anything, she gets a cut of any awards.

Email sent. I hope we get enough people to get BMW's attention, as it is clearly a poor design which they should fix.

[DavidM]

Everyone who is serious, needs to send her an email or a letter. You have to give written consent so she can represent you. In a case like this, it doesnt cost you anything, she gets a cut of any awards.
Hmmm interested in this - then be interested to see what BMW GB say - as they refuse to acknowledge that there may be a slight problem with the S54 engines - until they go bang - then you have to agree to keep quiet about it - then they replace your engine

[mpire]

I guess the question I have is, if it hasn't happened (yet) can we still get in on this? I only have 12k miles and already have Randy's kit sitting in my garage anticipating the failures.
I assume so. Why wouldnt we? Its a flaw in the design.

[LynxZ3r0]

Okay then, email sent. Hopefully something good will come of this.

[Adrian G.]

Okay then, email sent. Hopefully something good will come of this.

The way I look at it, is that it can't hurt to try. If we make enough noise mabye BMW will respond to keep us quiet :)

[tripleM]

Ok guys. If your serious about this, then she would make a few calls. We have to settle out a reasonable request.

What are we looking to get? Dealerships to fix the car? An allowance to repair the car? Require they use Randy's kit? (hope its patented now!) If anyone here says they want 5 grand and a lollipop, then your not being realistic.


Thanks Empire for settingthis up:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392248

[bimmerZ]

Its a known problem on the E36 as well. There is actually a letter in this months Roundel Tech Talk pg. 114, about a E36 track car rear floor failure at 132,000 miles. He ended up junking the chassis because of the cost.

Mike's reply, was to buy a Honda accord LX coupe for a track car instead because it is cheaper and a has a stronger chassis than any BMW produced since the E30 except the 8 series and Z8.

I think it would be worth it to group up with the E36 and E46 failures since they sound very similar to the Z3 failures.

[s52e368]

i emailed her..

[sdz3]

I can't believe BMW is complaining about people racing their cars. What would they expect if they built a line cars named "M." Their entire ad campeign is centered aound them racing, or driving their cars fast. Also their participation in motorsport, and the amount of horsepower they put into their cars. They also brought out a transmission that allows people to shift faster SWG. I hate company politics and everyone scrounging for money.

[6i9]

I just emailed her.

[Mark@vfive]

Sue their pants off.. hope you guys succeed.. not because of the money, but just to force BMW to recognize the enthusiasts who they seem to love to make money off of with their marketing but wont help us out in times of need.. like this.

I mean seriously, how much does BMW make in profit a year, its a sickening #, atleast put a little back into us to make us happy.. fix a subframe on a couple thousand cars.. its not going to make a dent in their worldwide profit or even USA profit...

cars are about much more then money and it seems like BMW forgot that in the 90s when it decided to make money as the end-all goal.

go for it, if i had my m coupe right now id be with you all the way

:buttrock

[JT///M3]

I can't believe BMW is complaining about people racing their cars. What would they expect if they built a line cars named "M." Their entire ad campeign is centered aound them racing, or driving their cars fast. Also their participation in motorsport, and the amount of horsepower they put into their cars. They also brought out a transmission that allows people to shift faster SWG. I hate company politics and everyone scrounging for money.

seriously...what hypocrisy on BMW AG's part. The BMW ///M brand is so deeply rooted into racing that its almost implied. I mean, what are you supposed to think when you hear, BMW Motorsport? or BMW ///M Power? I mean holy shit, they built the whole moniker and brand on the heels of the E30 M3 race car. They mention motorsport/racing heritage all over their marketing materials. They even have a race car called the M3 GTR...hmmm. I wonder what kind of message they are trying to send to consumers?

[Dragon M]

JT ///M3 that's exactly our point. I understand not honoring a warranty if the damage to the car is specifically caused by "racing" but I don't consider Autocrossing a type of racing that would cause the damage we're seeing on our cars. AND there are people who've NEVER autocrossed or raced their cars experiencing the same failure. There's a news article I saw today saying that BMW is going to end the artifical governor on top speed on their ///M class cars. If you buy a new ///M3 you're encouraged to join the BMWCCA, which means that you'll see all the AutoX and HPDE events. You can even buy a new M3 and go to a BMW sponsored event where you learn to drive an M3 (BMW's) on a track to learn the limits of the car. But don't do ANY of this with your car...'cause the subframe isn't up to task? What kind of message is that?
BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?

[6i9]

BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?

These days? I guess so.

[Jim98Mrdstr]

JT ///M3 that's exactly our point. I understand not honoring a warranty if the damage to the car is specifically caused by "racing" but I don't consider Autocrossing a type of racing that would cause the damage we're seeing on our cars. AND there are people who've NEVER autocrossed or raced their cars experiencing the same failure. There's a news article I saw today saying that BMW is going to end the artifical governor on top speed on their ///M class cars. If you buy a new ///M3 you're encouraged to join the BMWCCA, which means that you'll see all the AutoX and HPDE events. You can even buy a new M3 and go to a BMW sponsored event where you learn to drive an M3 (BMW's) on a track to learn the limits of the car. But don't do ANY of this with your car...'cause the subframe isn't up to task? What kind of message is that?
BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?

Dittos

[Jim98Mrdstr]

JT ///M3 that's exactly our point. I understand not honoring a warranty if the damage to the car is specifically caused by "racing" but I don't consider Autocrossing a type of racing that would cause the damage we're seeing on our cars. AND there are people who've NEVER autocrossed or raced their cars experiencing the same failure. There's a news article I saw today saying that BMW is going to end the artifical governor on top speed on their ///M class cars. If you buy a new ///M3 you're encouraged to join the BMWCCA, which means that you'll see all the AutoX and HPDE events. You can even buy a new M3 and go to a BMW sponsored event where you learn to drive an M3 (BMW's) on a track to learn the limits of the car. But don't do ANY of this with your car...'cause the subframe isn't up to task? What kind of message is that?
BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?

Dittos

[JT///M3]

JT ///M3 that's exactly our point. I understand not honoring a warranty if the damage to the car is specifically caused by "racing" but I don't consider Autocrossing a type of racing that would cause the damage we're seeing on our cars. AND there are people who've NEVER autocrossed or raced their cars experiencing the same failure. There's a news article I saw today saying that BMW is going to end the artifical governor on top speed on their ///M class cars. If you buy a new ///M3 you're encouraged to join the BMWCCA, which means that you'll see all the AutoX and HPDE events. You can even buy a new M3 and go to a BMW sponsored event where you learn to drive an M3 (BMW's) on a track to learn the limits of the car. But don't do ANY of this with your car...'cause the subframe isn't up to task? What kind of message is that?
BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?

I concur.

[segue007]

JT ///M3 that's exactly our point. I understand not honoring a warranty if the damage to the car is specifically caused by "racing" but I don't consider Autocrossing a type of racing that would cause the damage we're seeing on our cars. AND there are people who've NEVER autocrossed or raced their cars experiencing the same failure. There's a news article I saw today saying that BMW is going to end the artifical governor on top speed on their ///M class cars. If you buy a new ///M3 you're encouraged to join the BMWCCA, which means that you'll see all the AutoX and HPDE events. You can even buy a new M3 and go to a BMW sponsored event where you learn to drive an M3 (BMW's) on a track to learn the limits of the car. But don't do ANY of this with your car...'cause the subframe isn't up to task? What kind of message is that?
BMW Motorsports the garage queen of the motorsports world?


I agree with those guys. :lol

[segue007]

Email sent.

[Dnz]

Doesnt M3 come with subframe reinforcements stock tho...?

[mpire]

Uh, no. Actually, the only subframe reinforcement I can think of is the X-brace. Which is only installed on the Convertables and the M Coupe.

[2L8IWON]

I sent a letter in her direction...

Mike

[toyomaz]

:mad count me in too! :buttrock

[buldogge]

Doesnt M3 come with subframe reinforcements stock tho...?

Yes... The M3 is reinforced in the subframe mount area compared to non-M E36's. It is common practice (in fact the BMW prescribed repair) to add (weld) the plates on non-M's for tear repair. They are avaiable at the dealer as well as Turner, Bimmerworld, etc.

[GoToplessM]

Hey Folks...

Just bought my 99 M Roadster in March and I couldnt be happier with it. My heart really sunk when I stumbled onto this thread. Frankly, I would not have bought the car if I had known about this. I applaud what you all are about to embark on, tho. It wont be easy and there certainly are no guarantees but nothing ventured, nothing gained. BMW should realize that its going to cost them money whether its to fix the problem or to fight fixing it so they might as well buy themselves some good publicity for their money. I have emailed Ms Williams even tho I have not seen any symptoms yet [I only have 30k on my car]. I will look for the signs now however. Its bone stock and never been raced so if/when I do see the cracks or whatever, I can be added to that group if it will help the cause.

Good Luck,
John

[s52e368]

so are you going to post updates or ??? just curious how it will be handled

[6i9]

I emailed Anna Williams, and have not received the form I'm supposed to fill out. :rolleyes


Hello,

I am writing to express
my concern over the defect in my M Coupe in regards to
the differential mount and subframe. Although my car
is not showing symptoms of any damage yet, from what I
can tell, it's only a matter of time. Please allow me
to fill out the form so I can give you more info on my
car. Thank you.

-Chris

[mpire]

Ok, probably because she is an attorney, and not an auto mechanic.

What should we put in this form?

Name,Address, Phone number, Model, engine code, VIN, and a discription of damage? Lets help her out here.

[JBgotM]

Hey Folks...

Just bought my 99 M Roadster in March and I couldnt be happier with it. My heart really sunk when I stumbled onto this thread. Frankly, I would not have bought the car if I had known about this. I applaud what you all are about to embark on, tho. It wont be easy and there certainly are no guarantees but nothing ventured, nothing gained. BMW should realize that its going to cost them money whether its to fix the problem or to fight fixing it so they might as well buy themselves some good publicity for their money. I have emailed Ms Williams even tho I have not seen any symptoms yet [I only have 30k on my car]. I will look for the signs now however. Its bone stock and never been raced so if/when I do see the cracks or whatever, I can be added to that group if it will help the cause.

Good Luck,
John
Don't be bummed, its an awaesome car. If it wasn't, we would sell them off and get something else instead of fighting to get BMW to fix the cars we love.

[2000Z3M]

I have almost 109K miles and I just checked on the rear subframe, Its good, no cracks. Im sorry.

[s52e368]

yeah i didnt receive a form from her either

[6i9]

Ok, probably because she is an attorney, and not an auto mechanic.

What should we put in this form?

Name,Address, Phone number, Model, engine code, VIN, and a discription of damage? Lets help her out here.

Well, I don't know. I was under the impression that there was already a form template that she had (not made by her necessarily) that was to be sent out to us if we emailed her.

[///MDex]

Guys, come on - show a little grattitude.

What sense is it to send 2 emails when you can send one?

Brent listed the items in his other thread that would be helpful to have in the email, as well as posted above.

[6i9]

Guys, come on - show a little grattitude.

What sense is it to send 2 emails when you can send one?

Brent listed the items in his other thread that would be helpful to have in the email, as well as posted above.

Well as I said, I was under a false impression. I thought she was supposed to send something to me after I sent her an email.

No reason to assume we're not grateful, of course we are. It's good to see the possibility of getting this rolling and have BMW do something responsible for once.

[///MDex]

Well as I said, I was under a false impression. I thought she was supposed to send something to me after I sent her an email.

No reason to assume we're not grateful, of course we are. It's good to see the possibility of getting this rolling and have BMW do something responsible for once.This smacks of ungratefulness to me.....


I emailed Anna Williams, and have not received the form I'm supposed to fill out. :rolleyesBefore you assume something, and then make a post about it, considering asking the party first, or, most easily re-reading the thread to make sure.

Mrs. Williams, or DragonM have no obligation to us to arrange legal help - please keep that in mind when rolling your eyes after assuming someone didn't do something for you. :)

[6i9]

This smacks of ungratefulness to me.....

Before you assume something, and then make a post about it, considering asking the party first, or, most easily re-reading the thread to make sure.

Mrs. Williams, or DragonM have no obligation to us to arrange legal help - please keep that in mind when rolling your eyes after assuming someone didn't do something for you. :)

I dont understand how my last post was at all disrepectful or showing ungratefulness. I admitted I made an apparent mistake, and that I was happy to see people trying to get the ball rolling. Why does that smack you as ungratefulness??

And as far as me expecting Ms Williams to send me a form:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392248



I would also suggest that when you contact Ms. Williams about this case, you list the following informaiton:

Re: BMW Differential Mount and Sub-frame Separation CL#97-21323

From there, she will send you a form to fill out concerning this issue that will probably ask for Name, Address, Phone Number, Make, Model, VIN, Engine code, etc.


Also, in the attachment .pdf file, I understood Ms. Williams to have stated that we should contact her and she will send an information questionnaire.


If you would like for my firm to pursue this matter for you, please email me at amwilliams004@direcway.com or through my website at www.gulfcoastattorneys.com and I will send you an information questionnaire and my standard contract for your signature.

Now I know MMpire gave examples of what might be on the form (Name, Address, Phone Number, Make, Model, VIN, Engine code, etc.) but I thought there might be more to the form because he wrote "etc." So I held off including any of that information until Ms. Williams sent me a form.

And that :rolleyes emoticon thing was because it had been quite a few days since I sent her an email with no response.

[markd89]

I think it would be appropriate if BMW gave us the option of having them fix the real subframe (which would basically just put off the problem to a later date) or give us reasonable compensation to fix it ourselves (I think 5g would be enough) and have us sign a waiver that since we took the matter into our own hands, any future rear subframe issues are the product of our oversight, and not BMW's...

FYI: BMW fixed my car (out of warranty). However this is not what you want...

1. The dealer outsources this to a body shop, which evidently fixes it how they see fit. My car was rewelded in one spot, but part of the area was not even repaired, it was just covered in seam sealant so you couldn't see the crack.
2. The BEST you are going to see is returning it to stock. Then it will break again in 10K miles or 40K miles or whatever.

IMHO, they should be doing an upgrade on all of the cars. There should be more metal in there so that it is better than the original design.

Mark

[JT///M3]

She replied to my email and said more info was coming soon. Lets show some patience. Legal procedings never move at a quick pace. We probably won't see any fruition from this suit for at least 2-5 years. BMW will probably lag/drag this on until we all just give up and fix it on our own dime. Not to sound pessemisic or anything...

[JBgotM]

Mark - thats the point, stock is an inferior design, we want something that will stand the test of time

JT - yeah, its hard to tell how long it will take to do this, coule be wrapped up in a year or could drag out for more than 5 years.

[///MDex]

Chris, apparently, I misunderstood your communication.

I don't want those helping us to percieve our passion for a solution as impatience or anything else remotely negative. :)

[6i9]

Chris, apparently, I misunderstood your communication.

I don't want those helping us to percieve our passion for a solution as impatience or anything else remotely negative. :)

It's no problem, we all make mistakes. :alright

I had no intention of trying to offend the aiding party with that rolleyes thing, but I'm just eager to contribute to the cause. Now that I understand others have been sending her their information (the things MMpire listed), I'll send her another email that can be of more use to her :)

[mpire]

Ok, its seems I jumped the gun on putting the letter on the forum. So thats why you guys havent gotten the forms yet. They arent done. My apologies to all.

I just got my form, and will post it on here for you guys after I have read though it all.

[mpire]

Scratch that, I was specifically informed not to post. She will send documents directly to everyone involved.

[6i9]

Ah okay, that was what I thought all along :stickoutt

[felonious monk]

Perhaps a repost... but I came across this article in a blog and thought it reflects what's been said here.

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000153043792/

[6i9]

Perhaps a repost... but I came across this article in a blog and thought it reflects what's been said here.

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000153043792/

Awesome. :rolleyes That's just ridiculous.

EDIT: Reading the comments, I'm having deja vu. In fact, editting this post is deja vu too. Weird :help

[JBgotM]

Awesome. :rolleyes That's just ridiculous.

EDIT: Reading the comments, I'm having deja vu. In fact, editting this post is deja vu too. Weird :help
yeah, they are outfitting more and more cars with black boxes

[Z3speed4me]

ok guys....i posted my pics online with my subframe crack which is rediculous...what do u suggest i do about it next??

i emailed that anna williams lady...but is that gonna do anything for me bc im in jersey and not in alabama???

[chgrec]

Here's an update...

I work in TV news so getting access to a couple of great attornies is not a problem. I am already in talks with a firm here in San Diego with an impressive success record Rosner, Law, and Mansfield (http://www.rosnerand law.com/) .

The lead attorney, Hal Rosner, is definitely interested in taking the case. We are ironing out the details on how we want to proceed as well as determining how many this affects. Once I have gotten the procedure straightened out, we will post a link where you can send us your info (year, model, miles, problems, driving style, pics?). I'll update on this board as more information becomes available.

My feeling on this thing is that we DON'T want BMW to "fix" this problem, since it will only repair the cars back to spec (which will fail again). We want them to pay for it to be fixed properly (Randy's kit??). I know this is all a dream but I figure I'll push for the moon and settle for somewhere near that.

Thanks for hanging in there guys!

- Devin's wife


Any update on this? My rear end is tearing apart and it looks like BMW is going to ignore me......

I want to be invloved in any class action as I believe this is a horrible design flaw that compentent engineers would have known was coming.

Thanks
Chris

[mose121]

I haven't seen anyone comment on this yet but I think this deserves to be discussed. Do we really think that our lawyer team is better than whatever BMW's lawyer team will be? It's sad that they will spend so much money on a lawyer team rather then fixing the subframes but they do.

Also, I think we need to clarify who is part of this. I've read some people say we don't need that many incidents since it's a low production vechical. But we are going through the entire Z3 line - not just the coupes. Also people want to submit information on older BMW's through E46's. Now we have opened up A LOT of cars made and we have to show how significant this really is. Are we gathering data across all models or just Z3's?

Also anyone who has modded the car is pretty much out - esspecially anyone who has done a differential swap or added more power to the engine. I know about the law that the burden of proof is on the car manufactuer but that kind of stuff again always comes down to who has the better lawyer.

Steve

If your car is modded, SEMA.org is your friend.

[mose121]

I'm hoping that if this does go through (positive for us), that they will honor those that have modifications done to their cars. Even though the subframe failure happened to those w/ completely stock cars, you know they will use any modifications done to a car as an excuse to void warranty.

SEMA will send a representative to shut the door on that excuse. You cannot prove that a cold air intake caused rear subframe failure. You can't prove it b/c it's not true. And if you have a US spec S52, just tell them they're full of it b/c euro spec cars had 321hp at that time and it should've held up with 240hp. Now if you're FI, you're screwed here. And some hardcore suspension/tranny mods will definately be an issue. But sport springs and stuts/shocks should not. There is already precedence for this, so just let SEMA do their thing if they shut you down b/c of your mods.

www.sema.org

[mose121]

Remember, it’s the dealer’s responsibility to prove that the modification caused the failure. Something something Warranty Act.

Oversimplified, but my grounds would be:

If a non-modded car experiences the failure, the how it is possible to blame the failure on a modification. booya

Magnussen (sp?) - Moss Act.

[chgrec]

Here is a list of E46 subframe failures, maybe you guys can join up with them.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=195602&page=21&pp=20&highlight=subframe+list

Good Luck!

We need a list just like this for Z3 issues.....It should be posted on main thread about this issue....I will post there and see if I can get a list going....

Chris

[kiapeyvan]

Hello folks,
Just had my subframe cracked. I have a 2000 323Ci. I have been talking to BMW for 2 weeks. What a bunch of losers. The dealer is telling me that I caused the crack and tear.
Got a hold of an engineer inside BMW, and the person essentially indicated that they knew about this problem but covered it up and decided to deal with it once the cars are having the trouble.
Talked to a lawyer in regards to legal actions. He said it would a year or two and all you get out of it is the repair cost. He had dealt with a similar lawsuit for GM except he was working for GM :) He recomended starting writing letter for BBB and taking them to small claim court. BMW wants 4K for the fix, what a bunch of jerks.

[Randy Forbes]

Hello folks,
Just had my subframe cracked. I have a 2000 323Ci. I have been talking to BMW for 2 weeks. What a bunch of losers. The dealer is telling me that I caused the crack and tear.
Got a hold of an engineer inside BMW, and the person essentially indicated that they knew about this problem but covered it up and decided to deal with it once the cars are having the trouble.
Talked to a lawyer in regards to legal actions. He said it would a year or two and all you get out of it is the repair cost. He had dealt with a similar lawsuit for GM except he was working for GM :) He recomended starting writing letter for BBB and taking them to small claim court. BMW wants 4K for the fix, what a bunch of jerks.
Huary's Lake City Collision (in/around Seattle) has already installed several of my kits on M Coupes/Rdstrs. You might want to give them a call to see what they can do for your car.

[mz.368]

Hello folks,
Just had my subframe cracked. I have a 2000 323Ci. I have been talking to BMW for 2 weeks. What a bunch of losers. The dealer is telling me that I caused the crack and tear.
Got a hold of an engineer inside BMW, and the person essentially indicated that they knew about this problem but covered it up and decided to deal with it once the cars are having the trouble.
Talked to a lawyer in regards to legal actions. He said it would a year or two and all you get out of it is the repair cost. He had dealt with a similar lawsuit for GM except he was working for GM :) He recomended starting writing letter for BBB and taking them to small claim court. BMW wants 4K for the fix, what a bunch of jerks.

Be sure to fill out the complaint and "incident report" both linked in count_schemula's sig. The fact that it's becoming evident in more models should help those pursuing legal action.

Randy's fix is cheaper and more durable, go that route rather than BMW's bandaid

[gearhead1]

So - I've read this thread and most of the others linked to it in it...

As some of you know, I am new to the forum. I have a 2000 M Coupe that was never raced (I certainly never have) as far as I know. It was previously owned as a company/corporate car and it only was driven 38k miles when I bought it this May. Over five years, that isn't too much and it is in great shape. It had no scratches on the front air dam/splitter lip, wheels in great shape (only a few scuffs) and the engine bay was spotless. I would imagine a car that was tracked would have some wear and tear, esp. paint damage, which mine doesn't.

I have not modded my Coupe, but it did come with a "dealer installed" Dinan stage 1 chip, which supposedly gives it 10 hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. I can't imagine that this would affect the subframe in any significant way and, given Dinan's history with BMW, I would hope this isn't an issue (not to mention, the S54 came with 318hp from the factory...).

I have not yet pulled up my trunk carpet, nor looked under the car for damage. I am almost afraid to. I have no access to a lift or an enclosed area with good light in which to inspect my car, so this is a bit tough for me. I emailed Randy about his kit, esp. in regards to finding someone around Northern VA who could install it.

I now hesitate to do any mods (exhaust, suspension, etc.) but perhaps this is unwarranted: do I stand any chance of getting any help from BMW in my case if I can't join the class action due to my locale? What is the total cost of installing Randy's kit? Should I just install it and get suspension upgrades (bushings, etc.) installed at the same time (gotta love credit cards...)?

Any advice, esp. from fellow Virginia folks will be much appreciated.

[pclemg]

So - I've read this thread and most of the others linked to it in it...

As some of you know, I am new to the forum. I have a 2000 M Coupe that was never raced (I certainly never have) as far as I know. It was previously owned as a company/corporate car and it only was driven 38k miles when I bought it this May. Over five years, that isn't too much and it is in great shape. It had no scratches on the front air dam/splitter lip, wheels in great shape (only a few scuffs) and the engine bay was spotless. I would imagine a car that was tracked would have some wear and tear, esp. paint damage, which mine doesn't.

I have not modded my Coupe, but it did come with a "dealer installed" Dinan stage 1 chip, which supposedly gives it 10 hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. I can't imagine that this would affect the subframe in any significant way and, given Dinan's history with BMW, I would hope this isn't an issue (not to mention, the S54 came with 318hp from the factory...).

I have not yet pulled up my trunk carpet, nor looked under the car for damage. I am almost afraid to. I have no access to a lift or an enclosed area with good light in which to inspect my car, so this is a bit tough for me. I emailed Randy about his kit, esp. in regards to finding someone around Northern VA who could install it.

I now hesitate to do any mods (exhaust, suspension, etc.) but perhaps this is unwarranted: do I stand any chance of getting any help from BMW in my case if I can't join the class action due to my locale? What is the total cost of installing Randy's kit? Should I just install it and get suspension upgrades (bushings, etc.) installed at the same time (gotta love credit cards...)?

Any advice, esp. from fellow Virginia folks will be much appreciated.
Just email Randy, he can hook you up.
E-mail me for details: erandyforbes@aol.com

[gearhead1]

I sent Randy an email through the interface on this forum... I hope he gets it... ;)

[6i9]

So - I've read this thread and most of the others linked to it in it...

As some of you know, I am new to the forum. I have a 2000 M Coupe that was never raced (I certainly never have) as far as I know. It was previously owned as a company/corporate car and it only was driven 38k miles when I bought it this May. Over five years, that isn't too much and it is in great shape. It had no scratches on the front air dam/splitter lip, wheels in great shape (only a few scuffs) and the engine bay was spotless. I would imagine a car that was tracked would have some wear and tear, esp. paint damage, which mine doesn't.

I have not modded my Coupe, but it did come with a "dealer installed" Dinan stage 1 chip, which supposedly gives it 10 hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. I can't imagine that this would affect the subframe in any significant way and, given Dinan's history with BMW, I would hope this isn't an issue (not to mention, the S54 came with 318hp from the factory...).

I have not yet pulled up my trunk carpet, nor looked under the car for damage. I am almost afraid to. I have no access to a lift or an enclosed area with good light in which to inspect my car, so this is a bit tough for me. I emailed Randy about his kit, esp. in regards to finding someone around Northern VA who could install it.

I now hesitate to do any mods (exhaust, suspension, etc.) but perhaps this is unwarranted: do I stand any chance of getting any help from BMW in my case if I can't join the class action due to my locale? What is the total cost of installing Randy's kit? Should I just install it and get suspension upgrades (bushings, etc.) installed at the same time (gotta love credit cards...)?

Any advice, esp. from fellow Virginia folks will be much appreciated.

I'm convinced Road Racing Technologies in Dulles, VA would be able to install Randy's kit. I haven't actually talked to them about it, but when I plan to get Randy's fix, I'll show them the elaboriate installation instructions Randy put together (w/ pics). For a shop like RRT that apparently participate in some racing, and with some guys that understand chassis dynamics, I dont think this should be a problem.

[JBgotM]

gearhead - if you know you plan to mod the car, cherck for the rear end damage first. If there is an issue, get ot the dealer and show him you car as you bought it in its stock form (they won't have any issue with a Dinan chip).

If you mod the car, then go in to get the fix, they will give you a harder time about it.

[///Mmelmann]

I have not modded my Coupe, but it did come with a "dealer installed" Dinan stage 1 chip, which supposedly gives it 10 hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. I can't imagine that this would affect the subframe in any significant way and, given Dinan's history with BMW, I would hope this isn't an issue (not to mention, the S54 came with 318hp from the factory...).

I have not yet pulled up my trunk carpet, nor looked under the car for damage. I am almost afraid to.

Hey man, it only takes 5 min to check your subframe. All you have to do is pull up on the rear most tab and that lifts up the whole panel that allows access to your tool kit and battery. Then unscrew the small plastic tabs for the tool kit. You will also see the two black screws that hold the panel that's forward of the panel that you lifted off. So, remove those, remove the sound deadining foam piece and then you can inspect your subframe. (I don't know if you have done it already.... you may have)

Russell

[gearhead1]

Thanks Russel - I'll give it a look tomorrow when I get some time.

[mz.368]

Should I just install it and get suspension upgrades (bushings, etc.) installed at the same time (gotta love credit cards...)?



yes :)

The less stock it is the more difficult the dealer will make things for you when it comes to their fix. I wouldn't think that it would impact your ability to take part in the class action suit, though as its happened to many stock cars.

My car had been to one auto x (that I know of) and had no mods, I kept an eye on the diff mount area and when I dropped my car to OH w/55k miles a couple weeks ago, Randy found a crack in my mount. :( Not as bad as most posted, but it was there despite my efforts to prevent it from happening. Randy made sure it won't happen again :alright

[JamesM3M5]

I'm convinced Road Racing Technologies in Dulles, VA would be able to install Randy's kit. I haven't actually talked to them about it, but when I plan to get Randy's fix, I'll show them the elaboriate installation instructions Randy put together (w/ pics). For a shop like RRT that apparently participate in some racing, and with some guys that understand chassis dynamics, I dont think this should be a problem.
Thanks for the compliments! :) We can definitely do it, whether the chassis is brand new or completely ripped to shreds.

[6i9]

Thanks for the compliments! :) We can definitely do it, whether the chassis is brand new or completely ripped to shreds.

Great James! You'll be hearing from me in the coming months. :)

[gearhead1]

Yeah, me too... ;)In fact I am sending an email now. I think I'll order the kit from Randy and have it installed locally, along with an ehxhaust and some suspension bits. It is one of those "might as well do it now" types of things...

[mz.368]

It is one of those "might as well do it now" types of things...

you will fit right in here :D

[gearhead1]

you will fit right in here :D

I am getting the notion that I might... I think I hate money. I always find things I might as well do with it than hang on to it. But after dropping 25K on my Coupe this spring, I don't want it to become worthless if the subframe fails and you KNOW it will cost more to fix it after the fact. A little preventative work now saves later, right? I just think it is pretty ridiculous that BMW isn't owning up the problem.

[Dragon M]

Sorry I haven't posted an update on this in a while, the process is slow but the progress is promising...

As far as an update on my situation, I can't say much at this time. I will say that BMW North America and the dealership I purchased the M Roadster from has offered me a settlement. Again, because we are finalizing the details, I can't offer any specifics.

I strongly encourage all of you to continue to pursue your fights. If any of you (in California) would like information on my attorney, PM me and I'd be happy to pass on the contact info.


- Devin's wife

[Randy Forbes]

Sorry I haven't posted an update on this in a while, the process is slow but the progress is promising...

As far as an update on my situation, I can't say much at this time. I will say that BMW North America and the dealership I purchased the M Roadster from has offered me a settlement. Again, because we are finalizing the details, I can't offer any specifics.

I strongly encourage all of you to continue to pursue your fights. If any of you (in California) would like information on my attorney, PM me and I'd be happy to pass on the contact info.


- Devin's wife
Sounds good "DW" ;)

So, when's the Coupe get a turn?

[Dragon M]

Don't know yet...

Luckily, it isn't showing any signs of damage at this point....although it also has about 15k miles less than the roadster.

I'm cautiously optimistic....

I'll keep you posted.


- The wife or "DW"

[clintjg]

http://www.tvacres.com/images/darkwing3.jpg

:devillook

[gearhead1]

Hey man, it only takes 5 min to check your subframe. All you have to do is pull up on the rear most tab and that lifts up the whole panel that allows access to your tool kit and battery. Then unscrew the small plastic tabs for the tool kit. You will also see the two black screws that hold the panel that's forward of the panel that you lifted off. So, remove those, remove the sound deadining foam piece and then you can inspect your subframe. (I don't know if you have done it already.... you may have)

Russell

Did it and, sigh of relief, no pulled welds. None that looked diveted or anything. Still, I want to look under the car at the rest of the subframe, esp. the mountpoints that seem to be the first to crack.

At least now I know that clunking when I shift isn't from the subframe (that reminds me to do a search on "clunking")...

[felonious monk]

Did it and, sigh of relief, no pulled welds. None that looked diveted or anything. Still, I want to look under the car at the rest of the subframe, esp. the mountpoints that seem to be the first to crack.

At least now I know that clunking when I shift isn't from the subframe (that reminds me to do a search on "clunking")...

Where is the clunking coming from? Worn rear shock mounts can clunk too.

[gearhead1]

I just had the rears replaced with stocks. I read a few posts in the last few minutes about the mounts. When I redo my suspension, I'll replace them with some aftermarkets.

[2000Z3M]

im in: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464438

[thrlls]

Huary's Lake City Collision (in/around Seattle) has already installed several of my kits on M Coupes/Rdstrs. You might want to give them a call to see what they can do for your car.
Can anyone confirm their work quality?
I may need to ship my car here from Hawaii, if I can't find someone here to do it.
Does anyone have their Ph.#

[Randy Forbes]

Can anyone confirm their work quality?
I may need to ship my car here from Hawaii, if I can't find someone here to do it.
Does anyone have their Ph.#
Jeff Butler's crew has installed three (3) of my kits, but I haven't seen any pictures of the finished job. Secondhand news (from J. Millet, I believe) was glowing praise.

But if you're willing to go that far, we need to talk ;)

[jmillet]

Jeff owns Haury's Lake City Collision Service http://www.hauryscollision.com/ and specializes in repairing BMWs, MBs, and Audis. Haury's did the prophylactic reinforcement fix on my Mcoupe. I have examined several of their Forbes kit instalations and the workmanship is first rate. Right now Jeff has several local Mcoupes waiting in the wings for installation of the floor pan reinforcement plates as well as the reinforced differential bracketQUOTE=thrlls]Can anyone confirm their work quality?
I may need to ship my car here from Hawaii, if I can't find someone here to do it.
Does anyone have their Ph.#[/QUOTE]

[thrlls]

Jeff owns Haury's Lake City Collision Service http://www.hauryscollision.com/ and specializes in repairing BMWs, MBs, and Audis. Haury's did the prophylactic reinforcement fix on my Mcoupe. I have examined several of their Forbes kit instalations and the workmanship is first rate. Right now Jeff has several local Mcoupes waiting in the wings for installation of the floor pan reinforcement plates as well as the reinforced differential bracketQUOTE=thrlls]Can anyone confirm their work quality?
I may need to ship my car here from Hawaii, if I can't find someone here to do it.
Does anyone have their Ph.#[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info.

Randy -
I'll need to check on some shipping rates, and look under my car which is up on stands at the moment. I'll email you later.
mahalo

[Esteves]

Any progress on this lawsuit?

[2000Z3M]

Any progress on this lawsuit?
friend of a family is a corporate lawyer in san diego, ca :redspot

[Z3speed4me]

yea it seems like this whole things kinda.....DIED

[2000Z3M]

yea it seems like this whole things kinda.....DIED
If BMWNA won't pay to get mine fixed I'm going to sue them. I'll try to get them to say that thier is a known problem and that it will happen to a Z3's, e36's, and maybe e46's so this way when it happens to you, you can get it fixed for free.
Chris

[felonious monk]

I think the originator of this thread took action on his own and won... which, I would assume, sets a favorable precedence for subsequent cases.

[TurnerMS]

Some photos of a 2000 328i we got in today. 81,000 miles, stock suspension.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/gallery/e46sf/gallery_e46sf_011306.jpg

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/gallery/e46sf/gallery_e46sf_011306_2.jpg

[Z3speed4me]

my dealer said he did a couple e46 3 series....so it has happened to them, no m3's but 2 330's if i remember

[felonious monk]

It would be very interesting to see if BMW owners outside of the US are seeing the same problems (perhaps American driving style and conditions are different than elsewhere?).

It's a bit hard to believe that BMW has had such a long record of this problem and have not corrected it. Anything is possible I suppose...

[TurnerMS]

It would be very interesting to see if BMW owners outside of the US are seeing the same problems (perhaps American driving style and conditions are different than elsewhere?).

It's a bit hard to believe that BMW has had such a long record of this problem and have not corrected it. Anything is possible I suppose...

We have shipped our E46 reinf. kits all over the world.

[JBgotM]

An E46 got fixed at the shop where my car is being covered. They only covered 50% of the repairs.

[thrlls]

BMW must be paying a pretty penny to the NHSTA to avoid a Federal recall, or the NHSTA are just idiots working there and doesn't know any better!
How disappointing!

[felonious monk]

BMW must be paying a pretty penny to the NHSTA to avoid a Federal recall, or the NHSTA are just idiots working there and doesn't know any better!
How disappointing!

I guess that's what happens when you have a government that is more pro-business. Things don't get done until someone gets killed.

[count_schemula]

If anything, people drive more consistently harder in other parts of the world.

BMW knows about the issue, but it's about 95% more cost effective just to play "whack-a-mole" with the occassional owner who makes noise.

[count_schemula]

Wow. Maybe BMW just can't do it.

Z8 Aluminum Frame Damage Warning (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=400&referrerid=2)

Still hyped on MZ4 Roadster/Coupes?

[Purv944]

Wow. Maybe BMW just can't do it.

Z8 Aluminum Frame Damage Warning (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=400&referrerid=2)

Still hyped on MZ4 Roadster/Coupes?
Now that would piss me off. Spending $120k+ on a car and having it fall apart because you nailed a pothole on your way to work. :(

[JBgotM]

Now that would piss me off. Spending $120k+ on a car and having it fall apart because you nailed a pothole on your way to work. :(


here is what I feel like doing....

**ring ring**
BMW: Hello, how may I help you?
me: Yes, BMW?
BMW: Yes
me: Forget cars, stick to making motors..... oh wait, the S54 is a grenade too, nevermind... **click**

[Purv944]

^^^Airplanes and motorcycles. They used to make a mean plane back in the day.

http://www.aviationshoppe.com/index_files/FW190.jpg
"The BMW 801D-2 was fed by methanol-water injection. Most revolutionary however, was the hydraulic-electric 'brain' unit, operated by a single control which was the pilot's throttle lever. It automatically adjusted fuel flow, mixture strength, propeller pitch setting and ignition timing. It also cut in a second stage of the supercharger at the correct altitude. The pilot could, if required, manually set the propeller pitch without altering any of the other settings."

Where did they go wrong? :(

[2000Z3M]

Where did they go wrong? :(
After Gremany lost the war BMW lost all the money to make cool/good parts.

[chgrec]

Perhaps we should contact the same lawyers who are representing the z8 owners....

(from the z8 post http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=400 )
" .....Proskauer Rose LLP is already representing some Z8 owners and is willing to represent others on a risk-sharing basis – meaning, it will cost a Z8 owner nothing in fees unless there is some recovery from BMW. Our contact there is Lou Solomon (212 969 3200 or Lsolomon@proskauer.com) or his partner Margaret Dale (212 969 3315 or Mdale@proskauer.com) if you are interesting in exploring what your legal rights are. Proskauer Rose LLP is one of the largest and most highly-regarded law firms in the U.S., providing a wide variety of legal services to clients located throughout the world. Founded in 1875 in New York City, the firm employs more than 700 lawyers in seven domestic offices in New York, Los Angeles, Washington, Boston, Boca Raton, Newark and New Orleans.
......"

I need to get this issue back on my priority "to do" list....Been busy moving and now we are trying to find a new house......I'll send them an email tomorrow and see if they respond...

Chris

[count_schemula]

We would seem to have a good case.

BMW says the car has been in an accident, or abused, yet, the damage is very repeatable, and fairly well documented.

[wblanchard]

Who is Randy and where does one buy this "kit"? Thanks!

[mz.368]

Who is Randy and where does one buy this "kit"? Thanks!

Randy Forbes is a member here and you buy his kit from him

[OptikalPhiber]

Perhaps we should contact the same lawyers who are representing the z8 owners....

(from the z8 post http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=400 )
" .....Proskauer Rose LLP is already representing some Z8 owners and is willing to represent others on a risk-sharing basis – meaning, it will cost a Z8 owner nothing in fees unless there is some recovery from BMW. Our contact there is Lou Solomon (212 969 3200 or Lsolomon@proskauer.com) or his partner Margaret Dale (212 969 3315 or Mdale@proskauer.com) if you are interesting in exploring what your legal rights are. Proskauer Rose LLP is one of the largest and most highly-regarded law firms in the U.S., providing a wide variety of legal services to clients located throughout the world. Founded in 1875 in New York City, the firm employs more than 700 lawyers in seven domestic offices in New York, Los Angeles, Washington, Boston, Boca Raton, Newark and New Orleans.
......"

I need to get this issue back on my priority "to do" list....Been busy moving and now we are trying to find a new house......I'll send them an email tomorrow and see if they respond...

Chris

Did you ever receive a response, or send an email to these lawyers?

[mpire]

My mother is one of the attorneys. You just need to contact her and she will send you the info to sign up. www.gulfcoastattorneys.com

[mz.368]

My mother is one of the attorneys. You just need to contact her and she will send you the info to sign up. www.gulfcoastattorneys.com

I believe he was referring to the joint effort (or talks of) with the Z8 group.

[Randy Forbes]

I believe he was referring to the joint effort (or talks of) with the Z8 group.
Keep your invoice, I think someone is about to be reimbursed...

[mz.368]

Keep your invoice, I think someone is about to be reimbursed...


are u serious?!? that would kick so much ass!! :buttrock

details on said reimbursement.....

[Randy Forbes]

are u serious?!? that would kick so much ass!! :buttrock

details on said reimbursement.....
Details are in this thread :lol

[mz.368]

Details are in this thread :lol

sounds like a dealer specific relationship though, BMW NA needs to start coughing up cash....

also how bad was the damage on the person's car that may be receiving this reimbursement?

[Adrian G.]

BMW NA needs to start coughing up cash....

It would be the right thing to do on BMW's part.

[Dragon M]

Any update on this? My rear end is tearing apart and it looks like BMW is going to ignore me......

I want to be invloved in any class action as I believe this is a horrible design flaw that compentent engineers would have known was coming.

Thanks
Chris


Sorry it's been so long gang! I needed to be sure there wasn't a confidentiality clause in my settlement before I could speak freely about our situation.

After 6 months of paperwork and waiting and more waiting, the deal on my 2000 M Roadster is done. Our awesome attornies (Rosner, Law, and Mansfield in San Diego) got BMW N.A. to declare my car a Lemon and buy the car back at the original purchase price. They also got BMW to reimburse us for all of our out of pocket expenses because of the extensive repairs.

So as of January 13, the car is gone (VIN#LC90045 - If anyone finds it out there, I'd love to find out where it ended up and if all disclosures were made before it's re-sold.) Ironically, after I repaired EVERYTHING and had Randy's amazing kit put on it, it's gonna be a great car for someone out there!

Despite it's problems, I miss that damn car! For those of you who are fans, it truly is a great machine. I bought a '95 M3 to replace it, but it's not quite the same.

BMW never copped to the subframe problem. My car was a special case because I had suffered so many other problems....the rear subframe was just the final straw.

I encourage all of you to keep pushing on this issue. Feel free to contact my lawyer....the company is well aware of this issue. They will be able to tell you the best course of action to take.



Charisse

[6i9]

Hm, thats a bit disappointing that BMW didnt recognize the subframe problem as an extensive case.

I wouldnt be satisfied with BMW paying me back the money. I want to fix the car, not get rid of it. But at least your case got settled...

[JT///M3]

yeah, same here, I wouldn't want them to buy it back for any price really. Maybe give me a V8 M Coupe when it comes out, but other than that, I like my Z3 M Coupe alot. Pay for it to get fixed, sure, why not.

I guess this only a small win for you personally. Not much for the rest of us. The Z3 owners 0, BMW 1 in this case. You 1, BMW 0 in your case.

[osborni]

As a legal/financial matter, it's better for BMW to deal with this on a one-off basis and under no circumstances admit to fault. If they do, every z3 owner out there will have the right to have it fixed at BMWs expense. Not sure, but they sold LOTS of z3s.

The only way this would get to that level is if somebody (probably more then one) gets killed and fault can be tied to the subframe failure, not driver error or 'abuse'.

BMWNA hasn't done jack about the e36 or e46 subframes either.

[kinghawk]

any information as to how a individual would need to appoach this issue to handle a situation like this on a vehicle he has?

[mz.368]

any information as to how a individual would need to appoach this issue to handle a situation like this on a vehicle he has?

1. fight with BMW to have it returned back to stock so it can likely fail again

2. get a real repair on your own (forbes, dinan etc) and hope that someday bmw might (just maybe) reimburse some of the cost

3. sell the car to someone who doesn't know any better

[98Z3]

3. sell the car to someone who doesn't know any better
:lol wait.... that was me :( i bought my car and had no clue they had problems like this... oh well. hopefully someday it will get the forbes treatment:D

[tye1138]

So yea, did not figure it would ever happen to me AGAIN! My E36 M3 with 187k on the clock blew its subframe. $380 bux later, it was welded and sold...

NOW my 2000 M Roadster has around 10 or so cracks in the frame, ect... everybody knows the drill. BUT I figured instead of just fixing it, I'd see who was the most helpful in town and relay that info back too the forum's so anybody else in California who had this problem can go to whoever I find as the best help. I know a tun of people over at Century West on Lankershim in the Valley, I'm gonna try there first.

Thanks to everybody who has kept this thread alive, its been a great help!

[mz.368]

So yea, did not figure it would ever happen to me AGAIN! My E36 M3 with 187k on the clock blew its subframe. $380 bux later, it was welded and sold...

NOW my 2000 M Roadster has around 10 or so cracks in the frame, ect... everybody knows the drill. BUT I figured instead of just fixing it, I'd see who was the most helpful in town and relay that info back too the forum's so anybody else in California who had this problem can go to whoever I find as the best help. I know a tun of people over at Century West on Lankershim in the Valley, I'm gonna try there first.

Thanks to everybody who has kept this thread alive, its been a great help!

check in the other subframe (sticky) threads.....there is at least on west coast recomendation (sorry I forget info)

[s52e368]

So yea, did not figure it would ever happen to me AGAIN! My E36 M3 with 187k on the clock blew its subframe. $380 bux later, it was welded and sold...

NOW my 2000 M Roadster has around 10 or so cracks in the frame, ect... everybody knows the drill. BUT I figured instead of just fixing it, I'd see who was the most helpful in town and relay that info back too the forum's so anybody else in California who had this problem can go to whoever I find as the best help. I know a tun of people over at Century West on Lankershim in the Valley, I'm gonna try there first.

Thanks to everybody who has kept this thread alive, its been a great help!

FYI im selling my subframe reinforcement kit.

[kinghawk]

bump

[washingtonbmwz3]

Hello bmw fans. I too love BMW'S. The only cars i've ever owned. I previously owned a 1999 z3 1.9L and had subframe and differential problems after a few years of ownership. Finally I decided to get rid of the car.
Now, I just recently purchased another Z3 2.3L with 84k miles. Now 2 months later at 86k miles, the differential problem just occured. While driving home, I heard a loud "POP" and when I got home I put it up on a jack and found that support bracket that is welded to the subframe and bolted to the differential had snapped off. Last night I looked at the very same pictures of my damage that has occured to z3speedforme's homepage. I then went onto the ntsha website and found out that a few other people has filed complaints with the same damage.
It sucks on my part because this is my only car and I had to save up to buy this car and 2 months later, it's not drivable and the dealership where I purchased it just said sorry and good luck to me and I called my local dealership and he told me since it's out of warranty, there's nothing they can do. No i'm stuck with a $1500.00 repair bill and no way to get to work.

[mz.368]

Hello bmw fans. I too love BMW'S. The only cars i've ever owned. I previously owned a 1999 z3 1.9L and had subframe and differential problems after a few years of ownership. Finally I decided to get rid of the car.
Now, I just recently purchased another Z3 2.3L with 84k miles. Now 2 months later at 86k miles, the differential problem just occured. While driving home, I heard a loud "POP" and when I got home I put it up on a jack and found that support bracket that is welded to the subframe and bolted to the differential had snapped off. Last night I looked at the very same pictures of my damage that has occured to z3speedforme's homepage. I then went onto the ntsha website and found out that a few other people has filed complaints with the same damage.
It sucks on my part because this is my only car and I had to save up to buy this car and 2 months later, it's not drivable and the dealership where I purchased it just said sorry and good luck to me and I called my local dealership and he told me since it's out of warranty, there's nothing they can do. No i'm stuck with a $1500.00 repair bill and no way to get to work.


That really sucks, make sure to get in touch with these guys as well. Won't help you immediately but hopefully will get something done long term. Also try other dealerships, several members have had this repair done out of warranty.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/BMW.html lawyers from this post http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=585703

[washingtonbmwz3]

10-10-2006 while driving home I heard a loud "POP" coming from the rear of car. When I got home and lifted the car, I spotted the bracket holding my differential to the subframe had snapped apart.

I bought the car 2 months ago and now it's time for major repairs.

This pisses me off especially since the dealership where I purchased the car told me good luck when I called him and told of the problem.

[Randy Forbes]

10-10-2006 while driving home I heard a loud "POP" coming from the rear of car. When I got home and lifted the car, I spotted the bracket holding my differential to the subframe had snapped apart.

I bought the car 2 months ago and now it's time for major repairs.

This pisses me off especially since the dealership where I purchased the car told me good luck when I called him and told of the problem.
Contact BMWNA directly; or me, if you want a repair that you'll never have to look back on.

[kinghawk]

Contact BMWNA directly; or me, if you want a repair that you'll never have to look back on.


With the information you have and the number of subframes you have repaired would it be possible for you to pursue BMWNA and use the information you have as "proof" thse cars have problems with the subframe tearing? Just out of curiosity how many cars have you repaired related to this issue?

[JT///M3]

why don't we post a video of our complaints on youtube? I saw a news article about how the power of youtube has changed how companies deal with customer complaints.

[Randy Forbes]

With the information you have and the number of subframes you have repaired would it be possible for you to pursue BMWNA and use the information you have as "proof" thse cars have problems with the subframe tearing? Just out of curiosity how many cars have you repaired related to this issue?
BMWNA fixed both of my cars, I really don't feel that I have an axe to grind with them. Had I been denied, or told there's no substance to my claim, that would be another story.

The pictures of all the cars I have personally worked on are already on the web. I'm sure that Daniel could, if he had the time, track the IP addresses of every visitor and see if BMW was one of them...

There's a lawyer working on the class action lawsuit, let him do the legwork, he's going to gain the most from it.

[thrlls]

10-10-2006 while driving home I heard a loud "POP" coming from the rear of car. When I got home and lifted the car, I spotted the bracket holding my differential to the subframe had snapped apart.

I bought the car 2 months ago and now it's time for major repairs.

This pisses me off especially since the dealership where I purchased the car told me good luck when I called him and told of the problem.
Sorry to hear it happened to you, and so soon after the sale!
I have the parts from Randy and Rogue to do the repair if need be, as I sold my roady and not longer need the parts.
I'll sell it at a good price to you or anyone else that is interested.

The buyer of my car was did not feel he needed it so it's up for sale.

[MFaust]

Sorry to hear it happened to you, and so soon after the sale!
I have the parts from Randy and Rogue to do the repair if need be, as I sold my roady and not longer need the parts.
I'll sell it at a good price to you or anyone else that is interested.

The buyer of my car was did not feel he needed it so it's up for sale.

PM Sent. :)

[thrlls]

PM Sent. :)
Replied to PM :cool

[tinyhotles]

Hi,

Don't mean to throw a wet blanket on your worries, but as a prospective z3 buyer, are there any models, years, or other factors that make a car more prone to subframe failure?

I was very intent on purchasing a zcoupe, but frankly this thread scares me. Are there no safe cars I can purchase, does where the car was driven matter, how many miles, m or no m, years of manufacture etc.?

Thanks

[JT///M3]

there is no rhyme or reason. you just roll the dice when you buy one of these cars...

[krnz3]

BMW are bunch of pricks sometimes... Oh, yeah the subframe... you broke it from racing and not driving the car like a car... hmmm maybe thats why 99.99 percent of the z3 owners have this problem eh?!

Plus it's an on the ///Mz3's it's an M... ment to be driven ruffly on occasions

[mz.368]

Hi,

Don't mean to throw a wet blanket on your worries, but as a prospective z3 buyer, are there any models, years, or other factors that make a car more prone to subframe failure?

I was very intent on purchasing a zcoupe, but frankly this thread scares me. Are there no safe cars I can purchase, does where the car was driven matter, how many miles, m or no m, years of manufacture etc.?

Thanks

If you don't want subframe problems, stay away from any E36. Any could have the failure. There does not seem to be a pattern.

Keep in mind how truly representative this thread is of all the cars produced before you let it scare you off. Just my .02.

[djk55]

Count me in. Just spent $4500 putting my 2000 M-Roadster back together. My trunk area cracked all the way across the rear axle and along the sides. Looked similar to the posted pictures. According to BMW I must have had a accident or abused my car. I never had an accident, raced or taken the car on the track. I would expect a vehicle to handle everyday driving on secondary roads and freeways in Northern CA. This experience has really soured my impression of a "BMW Driving Experience". My experience is now negative and I never miss an opportunity to tell my story to perspective buyers.....

[Randy Forbes]

Count me in. Just spent $4500 putting my 2000 M-Roadster back together. My trunk area cracked all the way across the rear axle and along the sides. Looked similar to the posted pictures. According to BMW I must have had a accident or abused my car. I never had an accident, raced or taken the car on the track. I would expect a vehicle to handle everyday driving on secondary roads and freeways in Northern CA. This experience has really soured my impression of a "BMW Driving Experience". My experience is now negative and I never miss an opportunity to tell my story to perspective buyers.....
Keep that in mind when you go to sell your car...

For that kind of money (50% more than I charge), was the repair done at a BMW dealership?

[clintjg]

hmmm maybe thats why 99.99 percent of the z3 owners have this problem eh?!

It goes without saying that this is a serious problme but let's not exaggerate the scope of the issue.

Many Z3's live long full lives without this problem manifesting itself, and although it's perhaps only a matter of time, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Aside from a dealer, BMW NA should be the first stop for any owner with these issues. From there it's up to you.

[Adrian G.]

It goes without saying that this is a serious problme but let's not exaggerate the scope of the issue.

Many Z3's live long full lives without this problem manifesting itself, and although it's perhaps only a matter of time, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Aside from a dealer, BMW NA should be the first stop for any owner with these issues. From there it's up to you.

Both this issue and the way BMW is handling it, is unacceptable. The ultimate driving machine, what a joke. I still love my car which is why I decided to fix it with Randy's kit; and I do plan on keeping it. But I have not purchased another BMW since and I do advise others of BMW build quality after this experience.

[2kredz3]

i disagree. . .even with the sub frame issues this car is better built than any of the vehicles that i have delt with in my life. from dodge to chevy and ford. . .it doesnt matter this is a small issues compared to some of the things that i delt with on my dodge. . .i personally will buy many more BMW's if all i have to worry about is a sagging glove box and needed re-enforcment in the rear. . .just for an example my dodge went through 8 sets of brakes all the way around during the 50k mi that i owned it, 4 sets were factory 4 sets were performance replacements. . .including power slot, bearr, and napa's drilled and slotted rotors. . .total spent on just brakes was almost 3k and the only thing that would truly stop this problem would be to buy a big break up-grade kit for 6k all the way around. . .just be glad that there is a fix for our cars :)

[jackool]

No problem, YET. But isn't it just a matter of time; or if it doesn't happen, driving the car is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sign me up. Have we started funding to retain a legal counsel. If we quantify how many failures, it should be enough evidence to get the ball rolling.

[mz.368]

No problem, YET. But isn't it just a matter of time; or if it doesn't happen, driving the car is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sign me up. Have we started funding to retain a legal counsel. If we quantify how many failures, it should be enough evidence to get the ball rolling.

you don't fund class action suits - the lawyers get paid based on settling the claim

this firm is proceeding with the class action suit last I heard http://www.girardgibbs.com/about.asp

If you search for MDex's post there is a link to send them your information