What's a Point-By?

[99MPower]

Originally Posted by ///Madman

Since this is your first DE I am assuming you will have an Instructor. I would suggest that you ask your Instructor to watch the mirrors for the first few sessions while you concentrate on what is going on in front of you. I've seen students drive right off the track because they became over concerned with what was happening behind them. When I instruct a new student I always take over the mirrors and let the student know when they should give a point-bye. Once I am confident that the student is driving consistently well I will turn over responsibility for the mirrors to the student.

thanks for the advice... I will post up all my experiences after the DE's are done. Milwuakee PCA is running the DE at Road America, Badger Bimmer at a blackhawk day, chicago PCA at another blackhawk day, and then Ferrari Club is running the event at Gingerman....

[Damon in STL]

Originally Posted by Conechaser

I have a real hard time believing that Spec Rambo was being driven by an expirienced SCCA racer. The lines he was running and where he was braking do not support it unless this was the very first time he ever turned a wheel at Gateway or he was messing with you.

It's all true. My car typically puts down faster lap times than some of the srf cars at GIR. He raced the previous weekend with the SCCA and I was later told he spun several times coming into T5. The same person said he was a little gun shy afterwards since the spins were somewhat unexpected. So, he may have been testing out some exaggerated lines in that area of the track. His lines elsewhere in the vid are good.

Again, I'm not wanting to be negative about his driving or lines. The point of the post is about track awareness and giving point-bys.

Damon in STL

[StackTrack]

Originally Posted by peterblais

Overall though, I usually could care less if you give me a wave by, and I've never been hassled about it at all. Perhaps it is the non threatening DE day way in which I make the passes that doesn't piss people off. I'm not sure but it works for me.

I'm not sure why you don't get hassled about it, but from an organizer/steward standpoint, no matter what car you're in, or how safe the pass may end-up, you'd be black flagged in a heartbeat passing someone without a point by at most DE's here on the east coast.

Maybe you are getting passing signals and just not seeing them or something? Maybe it's open passing anyway and you don't know it?

The point-by isn't a courtesy thing, it's a safety thing.

If a group has passing rules (i.e. no passing without a point, designated zones, etc.) and you break those rules, you should be called in and it should be discussed. There are VERY good reasons in a DE setting to have those kinds of passing rules, and they are all for the safety of everyone on track. If an organization isn't enforcing their own safety rules, you shouldn't run with them.

If you don't like having to wait for a point-by, then you should find a group with more liberal passing rules.

If you can't get in those groups, for whatever reason, and you feel like someone's not letting you by in a timely fashion at a DE, then you pit, and you tell the grid marshal for the club, OR you tell the pit-out personel from the track. You don't even need to get out of the car to do that. Tell them you want some space, explain you're FASTER than some and they'll send you back out properly.

[vinnymac]

Originally Posted by Conechaser

I have a real hard time believing that Spec Rambo was being driven by an expirienced SCCA racer. The lines he was running and where he was braking do not support it unless this was the very first time he ever turned a wheel at Gateway or he was messing with you.

I know the driver of the SRF and he is an experienced SCCA racer and a heck of a nice guy. In fact, we were on the same go-kart team during the off-season last year. I don't think he was driving with any malice or ill-intent. I think it's difficult for him to give a very visible point-by with the way his cockpit is setup. I also think he may have been using arm-restraints which doesn't help the situation.

I also know the thread originator and well...he's sketchy and I'm not sure I like him at all (just kidding Damon).

[///Madman]

Originally Posted by StackTrack

I'm not sure why you don't get hassled about it, but from an organizer/steward standpoint, no matter what car you're in, or how safe the pass may end-up, you'd be black flagged in a heartbeat passing someone without a point by at most DE's here on the east coast.

Maybe you are getting passing signals and just not seeing them or something? Maybe it's open passing anyway and you don't know it?

The point-by isn't a courtesy thing, it's a safety thing.

If a group has passing rules (i.e. no passing without a point, designated zones, etc.) and you break those rules, you should be called in and it should be discussed. There are VERY good reasons in a DE setting to have those kinds of passing rules, and they are all for the safety of everyone on track. If an organization isn't enforcing their own safety rules, you shouldn't run with them.

If you don't like having to wait for a point-by, then you should find a group with more liberal passing rules.

If you can't get in those groups, for whatever reason, and you feel like someone's not letting you by in a timely fashion at a DE, then you pit, and you tell the grid marshal for the club, OR you tell the pit-out personel from the track. You don't even need to get out of the car to do that. Tell them you want some space, explain you're FASTER than some and they'll send you back out properly.

True at the HPDE events wher I Steward here on the West Coast. The key is that the corner workers are alerted to look for this behavior and enforce the rules. We run Open Passing run groups and Mandatory point-bye run groups as well as Mixed run groups in which a driver that does not want to be passed without a point-bye puts a large colored dot on the rear of his car. The Mixed run group is the more difficult to police for the corner workers as the car being passed does not show the dot until past the corner worker. I may have the dots put on both the front and rear in the future.

[Jim Bassett]

As a racer who sometimes picks up an open-track group occasionally throughout the year, I agree 100% with StackTrack and ///Madman. Just because *I* have the ability and/or awareness, doesn't mean those I'm sharing the track with do, and that's why whatever passing rules exist, are there for a reason, and I need to follow them just like everybody else.

Although, I wasn't so smart in one of my first "open passing" events. I was following a car, that I was clearly faster than, for more than a lap not getting a point-by. Then the light bulb went on finally and I remembered that I didn't *need* a point-by. Doh!

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Jim Bassett

Although, I wasn't so smart in one of my first "open passing" events. I was following a car, that I was clearly faster than, for more than a lap not getting a point-by. Then the light bulb went on finally and I remembered that I didn't *need* a point-by. Doh!

Sounds like me in my first few races! Ok, well, except for the "clearly faster than" part.

[Damon in STL]

Originally Posted by vinnymac

I know the driver of the SRF and he is an experienced SCCA racer and a heck of a nice guy. In fact, we were on the same go-kart team during the off-season last year. I don't think he was driving with any malice or ill-intent. I think it's difficult for him to give a very visible point-by with the way his cockpit is setup. I also think he may have been using arm-restraints which doesn't help the situation.

I also know the thread originator and well...he's sketchy and I'm not sure I like him at all (just kidding Damon).

LOL..."sketchy"....I've heard "A-ho" before, but, never "Sketchy"!


I really don't think there was any ill intent also and he is a good guy...and a nice guy. When I went up and apologized for crowding him, my expectation was for him to say something like "I hope I wasn't holding you up". But, instead I got something like "...don't worry about it. It didn't bother me...". So, I'm not sure what to make of it. If this had been the first time I'd have dropped it. But, the same has happened with this car at two other schools in the past. We'd even talked a bit previously about it. Although I was not very direct about it at that time either. Maybe I should have asked "...uh....Do you know what a point-by is?"

I'm not trying to single anyone out. But, I am wanting for people to be more aware of what is happening on track. People should always be watching for flags, watching their mirrors, and giving appropriate point-bys. And, to be fair....I probably should have just come into the pits and made some room and later talked to him a bit more directly.

I looked long and hard at the vid to see if I could notice any type of movement which may have looked like an attempt at a point-by gesture. I also was not going to post the vid....but, if it causes just one person to become more aware on track...then I think it is the correct decision. The race track can be a very dangerous place. We all need to work together to make it safer.

Cheers,

Damon in STL

[Evergreen Dan]

Universal solution: an aggressively-waved blue flag.

IMO, event organizers should make sure that the the passing flag is seen as a friendly reminder to check your mirrors and take appropriate action. It is waived early, often, and sometimes when not needed. Err on the side of too often. Don't wait until steam is coming out the trailing drivers' helmets.

Getting an undeserved passing flag is not an attack on your personal integrity or driving. It just means that the corner worker didn't see everything that happened before you came into their sight.

[M3Alpine99]

Thanks for the tip ///Madman. Going to store that for when I become an instructor. Working very hard on that goal right now. Love teaching and I think that is a great tip!

I do have one good story along these lines. Elise at Road Atlanta, I guess he just wasn't watching Mirrors at all. I was weaving and bobbing for 2 laps and would always run up on him hard out of the corners and was always very close... After 2 laps of this I decided to try something different. Coming out of the Esses I stayed in it and used ALL of the track on corner exit and ended up about even with him(had to use the brakes a bit to not actually pass him) on the inside of the track going towards turn 6... I guess he saw me because he lifted out of 7 and gave me the signal

Also a point by means you are more of a champion than the other driver... You can count how many point by's you were given and then how many you gave. Subtract given from how many you received and compare scores with your friends... Highest number is the "All-Star" for that event... roflmao

[GotBHP?]

Originally Posted by Damon in STL

I'm not trying to single anyone out. But, I am wanting for people to be more aware of what is happening on track. People should always be watching for flags, watching their mirrors, and giving appropriate point-bys. And, to be fair....I probably should have just come into the pits and made some room and later talked to him a bit more directly.

The problem is that you are probably only preaching to the choir here.

I honestly have a really hard time trying to relate with the driver of the fast car that likes to disappear down a straight, only to be caught 2 turns later. I def. understand the newbie that has their hands full and doesn't have the experience or the awareness yet, but not the guy with the big ego.

[paintpro21]

I think its easy for people not to realize how much faster a car is when they are behind them. I spent 4 laps behind and open wheeled racer. in the end it was fine since I would only have put maybe 2 car lenths on him each lap.

but my corner entry speeds and straight line speeds were higher by a lot, only his corner exit speed was faster then mine. because he was slow on entry I had to over brake and doddle on the gas mid corner to keep my distance. then he'd pull a few car lenths on the exit, but i'd be on his bumper before the next turn and on a long straight he wouldn't point by, so i'd coast behind him.

When some people are driving their car hard I guess they can't imagine the car behind them being able to do any better through a turn or something. He probably saw how he pulled on me on corner exit and thought I just had more HP for the straight. I guess its hard to tell when someone is giving up all of their corners in order not to get too close.

I probably should have left soem space and set myself up to really rocket out of a turn as he exited to make it clear. he probably would have been on my bumper though and lifting on corner exit, so w/e.

[///Madman]

Originally Posted by Evergreen Dan

Universal solution: an aggressively-waved blue flag.

IMO, event organizers should make sure that the the passing flag is seen as a friendly reminder to check your mirrors and take appropriate action. It is waived early, often, and sometimes when not needed. Err on the side of too often. Don't wait until steam is coming out the trailing drivers' helmets.

Getting an undeserved passing flag is not an attack on your personal integrity or driving. It just means that the corner worker didn't see everything that happened before you came into their sight.

Trying to enforce passing rules in a relatively consistent manner is one of the greatest challenges faced by the Track Steward in conjunction with the corner workers. Serious offenders are black flagged and spoken to. Repeat offenders can be held in the hot pits. But one of the most frustrating scenarios is when an event participant comes to me at the end of the day complaining that they were held up by X other driver all day. If I don't hear about a situation during the day I can't take corrective action. And, since i am also a driveer at these events, I certainly empathize with the offended parties because I experience too.
The Blue flag is great for the driver paying attention (although I have often seen it overused) and the Black flag is necessary for the flagrant offenders.

[BETO]

My question is, if it was an open session for instructors and advanced drivers, why do you need a point-by? Was that agreed upon before hitting the track during the driver's meeting?
And another thing, the driver's arms might be strapped down to give you a point-by, did you check that with him?
I would've stopped in the pits, let him go, and re-enter the track again in the first ocassion. I had to do that a couple of times before for the same reason as other mentioned, big engines=big ego=don't let you pass.

[Damon in STL]

I may be completely wrong!....

I just took a good long look at the video again. Right at the 00:55 mark on the vid, I see something black come into view for a brief second. The driver then moves to the right. He then hits his brakes. I may have missed his point-by! I'm an idiot....

Damon in STL

p.s. Passing was only allowed with a point-by signal in the areas where I had "Point-By?" in the vid.

[vinnymac]

Originally Posted by Damon in STL

I may be completely wrong!....

I just took a good long look at the video again. Right at the 00:55 mark on the vid, I see something black come into view for a brief second. The driver then moves to the right. He then hits his brakes. I may have missed his point-by! I'm an idiot....

Damon in STL

Doh! You are an idiot...LOL.

[Damon in STL]

Originally Posted by vinnymac

Doh! You are an idiot...LOL.

Hey I'm going to bump draft you next time!!

Damon in STL

[Evergreen Dan]

Originally Posted by ///Madman

The Blue flag is great for the driver paying attention (although I have often seen it overused) and the Black flag is necessary for the flagrant offenders.

I dunno. I don't think I've ever seen a car above the novice group ignore an agressively waved blue flag. This assumes that the blue flag is positioned in the turn BEFORE the passing zone, not in the middle of the passing zone where is may be too late before an inattentive driver sees it.

If a driver doesn't see a blue flag, then either the instructor should be booted or, if soloing, their solo status should be revoked, IMO. What if they don't see a yellow, red, black, debris, or white flag?

I personally don't believe a blue can be overused. You get the blue; you check your mirrors. It's not a "warning" flag; its a helpful information reminder.

Now I suppose if every single car get a blue every single lap, this might cause you to stop checking your mirrors. I've never seen anything like that. SCCA flaggers are really agressive about throwing the blue, and I love them for it.

Black flagging a car for not giving point bys is, IMO, a failure of both the driver and of the flaggers to throw the blue enough.

Not a car intentionally ignoring a blue -- that'd be a different story. Control needs to talk to them verrrrrrrry sloooooowwwwwwly. I only recall maybe on Ferrari doing this.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think just throwing the blue like its candy would solve 99% of the failure to give point-bys. In the lower run groups, there are still trains caused by the failure to get enough cars pointed by. Also some tracks have much better passing zones (e.g. the Glen) than others (e.g. NHMS).

Novice run groups sometimes have unavoidable trains because the rookie drivers can be so overloaded that they can't point by effectively and still drive.

[Prima E36]

For background: Blue flags are used but the atmosphere is a little different in the Friday sessions because of the typical quality of drivers and obvious holding up is typically not an issue. With the student groups on Saturday and Sunday there is more use of the flag. The clubs using Gateway tend to rely on the corner workers (SCCA qualified) to apply the proper flags at the proper time.

BTW: Someone else commented on the same problem on Saturday and Sunday. Maybe the issue is the tiny mirrors?

[Bud Scott]

Originally Posted by M3Alpine99

Also a point by means you are more of a champion than the other driver... You can count how many point by's you were given and then how many you gave. Subtract given from how many you received and compare scores with your friends... Highest number is the "All-Star" for that event... roflmao

Hey Damon, I win!!!!!!!!

[Damon in STL]

Originally Posted by Bud Scott

Hey Damon, I win!!!!!!!!

LOL....I totally forgot about this vid. This is one I made a while back when we were having some point-by issues (Ah...so that's my pet peave!).

The King of the point-by is similar in nature to the Stig....and shall go nameless.


Hail to the King!

Damon in STL

[Evergreen Dan]

That's a great video. There is some sort of "I'm cool" thing about giving the most subtle point-by. I particularly like the driver in a regular 3-point harness giving the slight back-of-the-hand-out-the-window point-by.

Another favorite is the never-ending stream of point-bys, such that as the (say) third car back, you have no idea if they expect you to pass or are going to race you to the apex.

The weird thing is that one of the most embarrassing things I can imagine is someone coming up to me in the paddock and telling me that I've held them up. You'd think people would be anxious to avoid being an a-hole.

[M3Alpine99]

Originally Posted by Bud Scott

Hey Damon, I win!!!!!!!!

Congratulations!

[jab1111]

As good a place as any to ask this bad question........

What is a DE?

[Evergreen Dan]

Originally Posted by jab1111

What is a DE?

Driving Event. AKA HPDE (High Performance Driving Education) event. AKA Driver's School. A high-speed on-track education driving event where you drive your own car under the supervision of an instructor.

Get thee to your local chapter's event(s).