Modified Rear Subframe With Ireland Engineering Kits

[shauer]

I have seen several posts that mention the possibility of using the 2002 rear subframe camber and toe adjuster kits that Ireland Engineering sells on an E21 but I have never seen anyone post that they have done it.

I just got my rear subframe modified with these kits and thought I would share some pics. I had my local shop to the grinding and welding to install the kits for me.

A shot of the modified rear subframe:


A couple shots of the inboard (camber) mount. There is about 1 inch of adjustment all in the upward direction from the stock location:




And a couple of the outboard (toe) mounts. There is about 1/8 to 3/16 inch of adjustment in both the front and rear directions from the stock location:




Here are close ups of the camber and toe adjusters. The only complaint I currently have is that the camber adjusters do not use a keyed washer on the nut end of the adjuster. As you rotate the bolt you will need to "help" the free washer around to keep the bolt straight in the slot. You might also need to tack-weld this washer in place to keep things stable. It looks like the toe adjuster kit is purchased by Ireland and re-sold but the camber adjuster with the larger adjustment range is made by Ireland.




If there is interest I will post pics of this going back together. All these pics are also in my album in a slightly larger size.

- Steve

[fullswing]

very cool! complete the write up... it would make a great addition to the FAQs.

[jjgbmw323]

Very similar to my DINAN one. We had a extensive discussion a while ago.
Here it is again:









Its been modified by Ray Korman with DINAN eccentrics. Goodby Negative camber.
I am going to powdercoat it silver vein.

[shauer]

Yeah, it is very similar. There is really only one way to do it so I expected it would be. I read through all those posts to research this before I committed to doing the mod.

I just wanted to show everyone what the Ireland kit really looked like. I did not see any previous posts showing this specific kit in use. As far as I know the Ireland kit for the 2002 is about the only currently available kit for doing this kind of mod unless you fabricate the parts yourself.

- Steve

Very similar to my DINAN one. We had a extensive discussion a while ago.

[jjgbmw323]

Yeah, it is very similar. There is really only one way to do it so I expected it would be. I read through all those posts to research this before I committed to doing the mod.

I just wanted to show everyone what the Ireland kit really looked like. I did not see any previous posts showing this specific kit in use. As far as I know the Ireland kit for the 2002 is about the only currently available kit for doing this kind of mod unless you fabricate the parts yourself.

- Steve

Yeah, I am glad you posted as negative camber is a bad thing when the car is lowered. Mine cost over 1k for Korman to do it, it was a custom job, I did not pay this I got it from a previous owner who had it done for his car.

I think it can be reproduced for a fraction of the cost by Ireland engineering.

How much was the kit, and how much to have your shop do this?

[shauer]

The two kits from Ireland (camber and toe) were $197 shipped. If you only want camber then that would be $100 for the one kit.

My shop charged me $200 to install them. It was about 4 hours worth of work.

So $400 total to get this done and I have camber and toe adjustment. Now my rear tires will last longer than 10K miles due to the H&R springs I have.

- Steve

I think it can be reproduced for a fraction of the cost by Ireland engineering.

How much was the kit, and how much to have your shop do this?

[MAD LIL E21]

wana chuck up a link listing them? and the 323i subframes are the same yes?

[autox320]

I still don't believe in the adjustable subframe, but thats my opinion. If your using coil-overs at the correct ride height for corner balance there isn't really a need for the mod.

Anyway I do have some input for those that continue to attempt this. Once you have it adjusted tack weld the nut and eccentric in place or it will change over use.

200 bucks, wow. Maybe try $15 for bmw bolts and a piece of steel to cut for the ends.

"The eccentric bolt is actually a BMW E39 5-Series part:
p/n 33 32 1 092 310 bolt
(M12 X 1.5 X 98mm)
p/n 33-32-1-093-456 washer"

http://e30m3performance.com/installs..._sub/index.htm

[MAD LIL E21]

ahh thanks, stuff paying 200 for a few bolts, i would machine some from a solid block before i payed that for them anyway
bmw bolt seems a middle of the range option

[jjgbmw323]

wana chuck up a link listing them? and the 323i subframes are the same yes?

Its my understanding that all rear e21 subframes are the same.

As for how to correct the problem of negative camber in the rear,
Bav Auto and others sell K-macs to put it that will do it a lot cheaper
than modifiying your rear subframe.

CJ and some others are running K-macs in the rear, and have good results.

[winstontj]

Steve,
Are they still out of the car? Would you mind posting the diameter of the eccentric washers and how far from the edge the center of the bolt hole is?

Much appreciated,
Tom

[shauer]

"The eccentric bolt is actually a BMW E39 5-Series part:
p/n 33 32 1 092 310 bolt
(M12 X 1.5 X 98mm)
p/n 33-32-1-093-456 washer"

The toe adjusters are the E39 part, thanks for that info. I knew I had seen them before. The camber adjuster kit is NOT the E39 part. It looks hand made by Ireland and has several times the adjustment range of the E39 adjuster. I do not think the E39 adjuster would have enough range to correct for over 2 degrees of negative camber. The E39 parts really only have enough adjustment range to take out minor mis-alignments.

I still don't believe in the adjustable subframe, but thats my opinion. If your using coil-overs at the correct ride height for corner balance there isn't really a need for the mod.

That sounds true but I don't know. I've never seen an E21 with coil-overs in person. In fact I think I'm about the only E21 in my part of the state. I'm using H&R lowering springs with Bilstein sport rear shocks with the adjustable perches. I have the rear height set equal to the front and I have over 2 degrees of negative camber.

My intentions for my suspension are for spirited daily driving, this car will never see a track or auto-x course.

Anyway I do have some input for those that continue to attempt this. Once you have it adjusted tack weld the nut and eccentric in place or it will change over use.

Absolutely. A local 2002 guy that is active in my local BMWCCA chapter uses this kit and told me exactly the same thing. The shop that installed these for me works on his car and again told me the same thing. They will set the rear end up and then tack the washers in place. Another thing I have been told is that getting to the toe adjusters can be a real PITA and might require dropping the rear subframe a couple inches to perform the adjustment. This is NOT something you take to your local alignment shop on the corner to get done.

200 bucks, wow. Maybe try $15 for bmw bolts and a piece of steel to cut for the ends.

Yeah, I knew several people would have that opinion. I don't know how much BMW charges for the E39 adjusters. The camber adjusters most likely have $10-$15 dollars in material and an hour or so of labor in making them. The slotted plates are real nice and took a small amount of time on a mill to fabricate. If you have the time and the tools then I agree that $100 a set is high. If you are like me and have more money than time then you look for the most time effective way to get the job done and this was it.

As for how to correct the problem of negative camber in the rear,
Bav Auto and others sell K-macs to put it that will do it a lot cheaper
than modifiying your rear subframe.

CJ and some others are running K-macs in the rear, and have good results.

Yeah, I know that some people have had good luck with the k-macs and I considered going that way. When I was researching this I came across many times more negative comments about k-macs than positive ones. I have never seen a negative comment about the slotted rear subframe from the E21 or 2002 forums if you take the time to tack-weld the adjusters. It really comes down to a personal opinion and judgment call. I only know what I have read about the k-mac setup and have never seen one. I was able to see the Ireland kit in person on the 2002 and talk to the driver and the shop that works on it so I felt much more comfortable with the Ireland kit.

- Steve

[shauer]

For the camber adjusters:

Washer is 50mm dia and the bolt hole is drilled 12.5mm off-center.

For the toe adjusters:

Washer is 33mm dia and the bolt hole is drilled 3.5mm off-center.

- Steve

Pictures of the camber kit can bee seen on the Ireland website in the 2002 suspension section.

Steve,
Are they still out of the car? Would you mind posting the diameter of the eccentric washers and how far from the edge the center of the bolt hole is?

Much appreciated,
Tom

[autox320]

I guess if you have sport springs and no other way to raise the rear (bilstein circlip positions), then yeah the rear tires would suffer.

2 degrees is about max before you induce unwanted problems. Even racing this reduces the rear tire grip for straight line acceleration. The same as if you have more than 2 degrees or so in the front it's bad for straight line braking

I still remember my welding instructors face smile when we carried in buddies E30 subframes for the same mods. I was in class so I'd do it for free. Starting of the Spec E30 series. Good grief thats already been 4 or so years ago

Anyways your right, this mod isn't for the faint of heart. As far as kmac products, I cringe. For bushings, I like the delrin sets. Interesting is Turner calls them hard-poly now. They were delrin when I ordered, and I have 4 sets on 4 different cars. I think their site is a typo. Poly ones(sold a lot of places) like the red/orange squeak and cause unwanted friction during suspension travel even if tightened properly. The cheaper red/orange poly ones also have a cheap steel sleeve that rusts quickly.

[MAD LIL E21]

k-mac is an aussie company, all the local fanboys run k-mac. so most parts places here can get them for me

[shauer]

I got the rear subframe installed as well as the diff. and the rear trailing arms. I measured the amount of camber adjustment the 1 inch slots gave me.

To measure this I unbolted the shock from the trailing arm and raised the arm to its normal ride height. I then placed the inner adjuster at its lowest position and placed my digital level on the rear hub and set it to zero.





Then I raised the inner mount its full 1 inch of travel. This gave a positive camber adjustment of just over 4 degrees, or 1 degree per quarter inch of lift on the inner mount.





Notice the nasty looking angle the bushing is making with the inner mount tabs. I don't think I would want to use the full inch of travel this kit makes available. Fortunately I only need about 1.5 degrees of adjustment to get my camber between negative 0.5 and 1.0 degrees.

Here's a shot of the outer mount used for toe adjustment



The quarter inch per degree is the same figure that Jester calculated on CAD in this thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=950607

- Steve

[Jester323]

your pics aren't working for me, but I was wondering about what the angle of the bushings/bolts would end up looking like... I think that when I rebuild mine that I'll drill the holes at an angle (inside higher than the outside, which means I'll probably need to modify the outer mount as well) so that they arn't binding and end up wearing out the bushings prematurely.

Out of curiosity, why the caster adjustment? does that really make much of a difference?

[shauer]

Not sure why the pics aren't working. They are all hosted from my Webshots album so you can always try there (link in sig) I think there is sometimes a lag between when I upload the pics to Webshots and when they are available to the public.

No real good reason to have the toe adjustment other than it was a small additional cost considering all the work I was going through and I didn't want to find out that I needed it in the future. More of a "while I'm at it" than a "I need it"

- Steve

your pics aren't working for me, but I was wondering about what the angle of the bushings/bolts would end up looking like... I think that when I rebuild mine that I'll drill the holes at an angle (inside higher than the outside, which means I'll probably need to modify the outer mount as well) so that they arn't binding and end up wearing out the bushings prematurely.

Out of curiosity, why the caster adjustment? does that really make much of a difference?

[Layne]

Changing the camber will change the toe a small amount, so I think having the toe adjustment is a good idea. It's a pretty critical adjustment from what I hear (??).

So Steve, lets say you used the e39 bolts on the camber portion and set it up so it would no longer go back to the stock setting. Think you'd get enough adjustment that way? Say perhaps a minimum of 1.5 deg over stock.

[shauer]

From the measurements I took, the E39 adjusters had about +/- 3.5mm of reach from center, or 7mm total adjustment. So that's just over a 1/4 inch of range. If you were to use them for camber you would have a total of 1 degree of adjustment range to work with.

I'm sure you could get it to work. Just figure out roughly how much adjustment you need using the .25 inch per degree and then mount the E39 adjuster to provide the fine tuning you want.

- Steve

So Steve, lets say you used the e39 bolts on the camber portion and set it up so it would no longer go back to the stock setting. Think you'd get enough adjustment that way? Say perhaps a minimum of 1.5 deg over stock.

[Jester323]

The pics work from my home computer, probably the network at the ofice blocking Webshots...

[Jester323]

I think what we are really talking about here on the outer mount is toe, not caster. Wikipedia Caster-angle

PS: I can't think of a reason we would want the rear toe at anything other that zero, right?

[Layne]

There's no such thing as rear caster on any car (unless it has rear wheel steering). The rear toe is NOT set at 0. I can't remember what the spec is though, maybe about 1/8" toe in.

[jrcook320]

Jester, I think you're confusing caster with toe.

toe-in on the rear provides greater high speed stability. As the outside wheel is loaded in a turn, the angle of that wheel in relation the direction the vehicle is moving will have a greater effect on the direction of the vehicle than the inside wheel because it will have more traction. If the case of the rear wheels, if it's toe'd in, it will "steer" the rear of the car in the direction of the turn. If it's toe'd out, it will steer the rear of the car in teh opposite direction as the front wheels, swinging the rear outward

Thus toe-out in the rear will increase oversteer and generally make the car more tail happy. A bad idea on an e21.

[Jester323]

yup, okay, slight toe in on the rear makes perfect sense now. I can't seem to find it now, but somewhere (not in this thread) I saw that someone was referring to slotting the outter mount for a "caster" adjustment, which confused me. I knew it made sense as a toe adjustment, but the, probable accidental, reference to caster got my brain spinning off on a tangent for a while trying to figure out how that would work, what it would mean, etc.