Strut Tower, beware!

[MechE00]

I thought I was being safe and thorough-- when I was buying a CPO 03 330xi at the end of January, I used the 24 hour test drive to do a thorough inspection of the car, searching for the things mentioned as watch items for this car. Well, I was not good enough and they appear to have snuck something past me. (among other things, I did manage to catch a leaking differential and a leaking power steering hose-- they replaced the hose and cleaned and tightened the drain plug on the differential). See also my thread about tire pressure monitoring problems, if you care to ( http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=676842 ).

Check out the first picture. Notice anything wrong with the strut tower? I didn't. Now check out the second, closer picture. The dealership is claiming "There is no way we would let that kind of damage through our inspection process!" and claiming that I did it. I have hit no potholes or anything with this car, but they are claiming that in the short time I have owned this car that I have dented 3 rims and caused that damage to the strut towers. All three dented rims are dented only on the inward-side of the rim. I found this out today since I finally got around to taking the car to be looked at for a slight vibration/shimmy I was feeling starting at 60-65 mph (if you care, see this thread http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=691028 ). I did not notice the shimmy/vibration before buying the car because I never took the car above surface road speeds (50-55 mph).

Anyway, in addition to sending out a warning to other potential buyers to add this to the inspection list (I will also be posting to the What To Look For thread about this), I wanted to ask some questions (especially of service techs, if any can answer):

What kind of force would it take to do that to a car? Is that really impact damage, or does that happen through wear-and-tear on the car? When I inspected the car I noticed that one of the front valence covers was gone. I did not realize it at the time, but that appears to be a common thing to do when people put on a cold air intake... that implies to me that the previous owner was a modifier-kind of guy and may have been putting sticky tires on and driving hard, could that cause this?

What kind of repair is possible for that damage? Has anyone ever had it repaired? Is it possible/likely that the dealer saw it like that, but just left it like that since there is no good fix? (alternatively because they figured nobody would see it?)

It seems highly strange to me that 3 rims are bent, and they are _all_ bent on the inside! Does that happen often? Is it possible/likely that only the insides are bent because the previous owner had the car lowered and thus had some significant negative camber (focusing the impact on the inside and protecting the outside of the rim)?

The rim with the least amount of damage is one that they had removed and supposedly remounted the tire on. (I had originally thought it was all 4, but now today they said they just did the one). How likely is it that they could have missed/ignored it when remounting the tire (assuming they re-balanced the tire)? Is it common to skip balancing if they are just putting the same tire right back on? I definitely felt the shimmying before taking it in to have the TPM looked at again... I just did not want to ask them to look at it just then because the symptoms were come-and-go, and they were having enough problems fixing the TPM problem, without me putting more on their list of things to diagnose. (Boy was that a mistake!)

Anyway the dealership is currently claiming that I damaged the car and they are refusing to fix the condition. I will follow up with this issue further.

Many thanks for any accurate/informative answers or other information you can provide!

Shoppers watch out!!

[Smoody]

My attempt at answering a couple of your questions.

I don't see how the damage shown in the engine bay would have come from the suspension. Any load strong enough to tear the sheetmetal like that would have done other damage. The most likely cause is a side impact. I suspect that the car was in a fender bender and that the right front quarter panel was replaced.

What size rims do you have on the car? The 18 in rims are very prone to damage due to the minimal tire sidewall. 17s can also get bent if they encounter a nasty pothole. When they bend, they will bend on the inside as you described. The inside has much less support than the outside and therefore is more likely to bend. If the rim is bent enough, it will cause a noticable vibration.

The wheel should always be rebalanced when the tire is removed.

[White94RX]

that's definately impact damage from either a wreck, or some giant potholes. potholes DEFINATELY cause bent rims too. whoever did the CPO inspection just half assed it and didn't even check for bent rims.

we're currently in a lawsuit for a very similar situation. customer bought a CPO, then later found out that it had some serious wreck damage that had been repaired. needless to say, we now go over these with a fine tooth comb. the general manager, does all paint measurements, etc. I definately would have found the bent rims, but I'm not so sure any of us would have noticed the strut tower unless it just stands out.

i'd talk to a lawyer.

[The HACK]

My attempt at answering a couple of your questions.

I don't see how the damage shown in the engine bay would have come from the suspension. Any load strong enough to tear the sheetmetal like that would have done other damage. The most likely cause is a side impact. I suspect that the car was in a fender bender and that the right front quarter panel was replaced.

That damage is actually exactly what damage resulting from suspension running over big potholes look like.

[CABimmer]

BMW=suck

[MechE00]

Just some follow up information to clarify:
Both strut towers in the front are similarly damaged. Also, before buying the car, I checked (as best as I could) for overspray from a repair and found none. As others have said, it would be tough for me to understand how both sides would be damaged from a single fender-bender.

To answer another question, the rims are the 17 inch sport rims. They actually have what looks like curb rash on the inside lip where the rims are dented! Is that even possible without blowing out the tire as well??? (I can snap pictures if it would help...)

White 94RX, do you have any idea how such strut tower damage should be addressed if found on a vehicle going through certification?

[Spitfire]

sorry about all the issues you are having with your ride.

All my wheels have "curb rash" all the way around on the inside (not visible side). I think its either from the tire mounting equipment, drive through car washes (with the metal tube on the ground steering the wheels), or scratches from laying the wheels on their side on the garage floor.

Anybody else?

[The HACK]

To answer another question, the rims are the 17 inch sport rims. They actually have what looks like curb rash on the inside lip where the rims are dented! Is that even possible without blowing out the tire as well??? (I can snap pictures if it would help...

Yes. I've seen it before. It is entirely possible to bend rims without damaging tires.

The few "cases" I've seen involving this sort of damage, usually involves driving over like a block of wood or a big pothole at highway speeds, like 60 mph+. The heavier the wheel the more likely it's going to damage the suspension but not the rim. The problem when you run over a large obstacle at high speed like that, is the dampers can't compress fast enough, forcing the strut tower and shock mounts to bear the brunt of the force.

You should also check your rear shock mounts. Hard to imagine this amount of force to damage the front strut without ripping through the rear shock-mounts or some of the rear subframe reinforcement.

Interestingly, I did manage to snap a set of RGRs when I ran over a big block of wood on the freeway, but it didn't manage to split my strut tower like that. All it did was blow out my strut and bent my lower control arm. However, that did weaken the strut tower enough when I ran over a sizable pothole at a much lower speed to split my strut tower open like that. First time it left a bubble on my tire and it deflated due to the crack on my RGRs. The second time there was no visible damage to the tire but the inside of the rim was bent.

Did you see the split in the strut tower when inspecting prior to purchase? I think anyone purchasing a used car should take the said car to an independent mechanic for a second opinion prior to purchase.

[MechE00]

You should also check your rear shock mounts. Hard to imagine this amount of force to damage the front strut without ripping through the rear shock-mounts or some of the rear subframe reinforcement.

Thanks, I think I will do that this weekend.

Did you see the split in the strut tower when inspecting prior to purchase? I think anyone purchasing a used car should take the said car to an independent mechanic for a second opinion prior to purchase.

To answer that, I will refer you to my original post...

Check out the first picture. Notice anything wrong with the strut tower? I didn't.

If I had, it would probably have been enough for me to walk away from buying the car (since the dealer had missed several other things in the inspection, it would have made me worry even more about what else they missed, as well as made me think they would do shoddy warrantee work... Please note, that at this point, I do not have any direct reason to think the dealer can not handle normal warrantee work, other than it took them 4 tries and a week in the shop to get my Tire Pressure Monitoring system working). I did look at the strut towers since I had read in the "What to look for..." thread, but I was looking at the spots where the strut bolts to the strut tower... I am hoping that my addition to that thread, and the pictures will make the difference for someone else in the future.

[The HACK]

Was this car CPO'ed?

[MechE00]

Was this car CPO'ed?

Once again, I will refer you back to the original post..

I thought I was being safe and thorough-- when I was buying a CPO 03 330xi

My view of the value of CPO (from this dealer especially, but also in general) has dropped dramatically. The inspection part seems to be worthless, so all I am getting is a warrantee. Next time I think I will ignore "certification" altogether and just buy a warrantee from a 3rd party if I want to pay money to reduce risk of having to pay for a major mechanical repair.

[LeftCoastBias]

bulging strut towers are a common e46 failure.


buy the reinforcement kit from turner motorsports, and a decent strut bar, and you'll be ok.

[sjpgoalie]

^^^what LCB said, it's a known weakness, to prevent it you need a strut tower brace...and of course avoiding some massive potholes. Who ever was driving the car when that happened must have absolutely creamed a big pothole.

[MechE00]

bulging strut towers are a common e46 failure.

I had certainly read about "bulging strut towers". When I looked at this car before buying it, I looked for "bulging strut towers", and saw no evidence. The damage visible in the second picture has little to do with the visual image of a bulge to me. If you see a "bulge" anywhere in the pictures, please point it out. This issue is a tear between the fender and a piece connected to the strut tower.

If you feel this issue falls under "bulging strut towers", then I say that description by itself does not serve prospective buyers well for this aspect. The damage in this case can be easily missed because it does not look like a bulge, and I certainly missed it when looking for signs of strut tower damage (since the damage was unobtrusively located away from the strut tower).

A description like "strut towers tearing from the fenders" would have been much more likely to help me spot this before I bought this car.

I do wonder, however, if a strut tower bar really would address the damage involved here. I can see how the tower bar would address an actual bulge in the strut tower (if there were one in this case), by directly reinforcing the top of the strut tower by means of the mounting plates. Please take a second look at the damage involved in this particular case, and explain how tieing the two strut towers together helps when the problem is the towers are tearing away from sides of the car.

In any event, I will be following this up with the dealership. If they don't agree to fix the situation, I will be taking it to arbitration. I will not be doing anything until my options are exhausted.

sjpgoalie-- I expect to be posting pictures of the inside of the rims (where they are bent) later today. I would appreciate people's experiences as to whether the kind of damage involved could have been done without blowing the tires.

[LeftCoastBias]

I had certainly read about "bulging strut towers". When I looked at this car before buying it, I looked for "bulging strut towers", and saw no evidence. The damage visible in the second picture has little to do with the visual image of a bulge to me. If you see a "bulge" anywhere in the pictures, please point it out. This issue is a tear between the fender and a piece connected to the strut tower.

If you feel this issue falls under "bulging strut towers", then I say that description by itself does not serve prospective buyers well for this aspect. The damage in this case can be easily missed because it does not look like a bulge, and I certainly missed it when looking for signs of strut tower damage (since the damage was unobtrusively located away from the strut tower).

A description like "strut towers tearing from the fenders" would have been much more likely to help me spot this before I bought this car.

I do wonder, however, if a strut tower bar really would address the damage involved here. I can see how the tower bar would address an actual bulge in the strut tower (if there were one in this case), by directly reinforcing the top of the strut tower by means of the mounting plates. Please take a second look at the damage involved in this particular case, and explain how tieing the two strut towers together helps when the problem is the towers are tearing away from sides of the car.

In any event, I will be following this up with the dealership. If they don't agree to fix the situation, I will be taking it to arbitration. I will not be doing anything until my options are exhausted.

sjpgoalie-- I expect to be posting pictures of the inside of the rims (where they are bent) later today. I would appreciate people's experiences as to whether the kind of damage involved could have been done without blowing the tires.

help me out, i am looking for this "tear" in your second photo.


and i can see your tower is bulging just from the angle of the strut mount bolts. they should all be facing upwards aligned with each other at the same angle. yours are pointing away from each other, ever so slightly.

[LeftCoastBias]

turner's site is down, when it is up i'll show you the diagram of the angles/bulge

[MechE00]

help me out, i am looking for this "tear" in your second photo.

Sure.. I've thrown a layer on in the attached image to highlight the tear.

Edit: I've also added a highlighted version of the first picture to make the location clearer. Both the driver's side and the passenger's side have the same damage. I am just showing the one side because showing both would be redundant.

Please note that the order of the pictures has switched, unfortunately. Originally my posts referred to the first and second picture.
The original first picture was named struttower.jpg
and the second was struttowerclose.jpg.

With this post, the first picture is struttowerclosenoted.jpg
and the second is struttowernoted.jpg

Sorry for the confusion this may cause.

[LeftCoastBias]

oh shit.



i'm not sure what could have caused that... i would think that the tear is going the wrong direction for where the force of impact would have directed... if it was caused by a pothole or something.


here is what i mean:


fender= |
strut tower = ^
tear = *


| * ^


if you hit a pothole, your strut ^ is what is going to react. if anything, i think a tear due to an impact like that would have been shaped like this /\ ... not \/.


but i dunno

[The HACK]

Once again, I will refer you back to the original post..

My view of the value of CPO (from this dealer especially, but also in general) has dropped dramatically. The inspection part seems to be worthless, so all I am getting is a warrantee. Next time I think I will ignore "certification" altogether and just buy a warrantee from a 3rd party if I want to pay money to reduce risk of having to pay for a major mechanical repair.

Sorry, I typically skim through posts that are more than a few sentences long.

This should certainly fall under the CPO warranty, no? If the dealership refuse to honor the CPO warranty, take them to court. A little litigation never hurt anybody.

[MechE00]

I appreciate your interest in helping me, LCB so don't take this the wrong way, but let me make this abundantly clear-- I did not hit ANY POTHOLE nor anything else to cause this damage. The damage to the wheels and the suspension/frame was on the car from before I bought it. I was just unfortunate enough to not notice the tiny cracks when I did inspect the car, just as LCB missed them (although I did catch and make them fix several other things), and I did not suspect that the shimmy that was come-and-go from when I started using the car on 65 mph roads (for my daily commute) was related to rim damage (especially since the outside of the rims looked great!)-- I thought it was an alignment or more likely control arm issue, and I thought that since they were having so much trouble figuring out a seemingly straightforward problem with the tire pressure monitoring system, they would be truly baffled by something that wasn't guarranteed to show up the first second that someone achieved condition umpty-squat. I was waiting to see if temperature, turning left/right, on throttle/off throttle, rotate tires front to back, etc. could narrow down the problem for them first... because I wanted to be able to say to them, "Do X and you are guarranteed to observe Y", rather than "Sometimes when I am doing X, situation Y comes and goes, if I am on a smooth enough road." I will post pictures of the two more heavily bent rims in a followup post.

[MechE00]

Sorry, I typically skim through posts that are more than a few sentences long.

Heh.. I appreciate the instinct to help out, and I can see how people can get to the habit of skimming... <--- What the heck? is this guy blowing a kiss with the wink?? Just to clarify, I appreciate your help, but not enough to get all flirty like that! :p

This should certainly fall under the CPO warranty, no? If the dealership refuse to honor the CPO warranty, take them to court. A little litigation never hurt anybody.

And just to keep with my trend of quoting myself from earlier in the thread

In any event, I will be following this up with the dealership. If they don't agree to fix the situation, I will be taking it to arbitration. I will not be doing anything until my options are exhausted.

By "not be doing anything" I mean not making repairs or buying things...

When purchasing, I signed an agreement to do arbitration rather than lawsuits. I've checked with a lawyer, and I think the arbitration scheme is probably ok. If I read it right, it's the American Arbitration Association, which is reportedly not just a puppet, always-finds-for-the-dealer organization. I don't want to talk too much more about my future interactions with the dealership right now because it still gets me incredibly angry remembering the sales manager looking me in the eye and essentially calling me a liar. It's not healthy for me to stay this angry this long.

[MechE00]

I've probably completely lost the thread skimmers at this point by posting so often and such long posts, but here are the pictures of the bent rims.

I mentioned earlier about curb rash coinciding with the bent portions. That is not true (though the technicians pointed it out to me as if it were when they were showing me the damage on the lift).

Attached are pictures the two more severely bent rims. Please recall these were on the rear of the car when I first got the car. In order to diagnose the problem, I swapped tires front to rear. Obviously, the problem did not go away (I originally interpretted this to be a sign that the wheels/tires were _not_ likely to be the problem!).

These images have been resized and gamma-corrected to make them clearer and within the limits of what is postable on the forum.

[BlackChrome]

That's some scary pics. Made me go out to my garage and popped the hood to inspect my car. Downtown Seattle (where i work) has really nasty potholes. I also have lowered and stiff suspension with low profile tires. They look fine. Whew! Best of luck to your issues though!

[kbsilver]

I'm also in NJ. Thanks to all the CRAP on NJ roads, plus potholes galore, I have bent 3 wheels in the past 6 months. Am getting quite expereinced at this now. In all 3 cases the tires were not damaged, no bulges/bubbles no loss of air. In all 3 cases the wheels were bent only on the inside. If you look at the geometry of the wheel the majority of the support is towards the outside of the wheel making the outside stronger, the inside weaker. The bends I had looked just like your pictures.

When I bent 2 in one incident (first event) had the alignment checked and it was fine. Hit a pothole last week at night and bent another rim (winter tire set-up) in the same position as before (front right). Just switched back to the summer tires for now. Closely inspected the shock tower and it does appear to have a slight case of bulging, and shows evidence of a stress crack in the paint only in the same place as the tear in the picture. The actual metal seems fine.

On item to note on the wheels. The inside bends can be easily repaired. While the process does use heat and will mess up the paint on the wheel, as it's on the inside, you do not see it nor need to refinish which is costly. I've used USA wheels in Fairfield (973-227-7977). They charge $100 to repair a wheel if no refinishing is required. They do spray the area heated up to reasonably match the original color. If you arrange in advance, they can even do the repair while U wait.

[sd203]

My thoughts exactly. Without even reading the entire problem, I thought.........THIS CAR was struck hard, doctored and sold.

Buyer beware. Got to watch out......as far as the dealer missing the problem, I would say.........perhaps they did or perhaps they didn't........YOU have to have the car checked......NOT THEM. They can say whatever they like. It seems unlikely they could miss it.( OVER LOOK it.)........you would hope not, since they would have a serious LAW SUIT on their hands if something went wrong with the car, and they knew it had a problem. Good luck with the car either way.