Member
Hello all.
This thread is for anyone contemplating an automatic to manual conversion, also called the auto->manual swap. There are many differences between body styles and submodels in those bodies, so I will try to keep this general until I get to those specific models.
In any swap, there are a few major parts you will need:
Pilot Bearing- get it new, and you must have it. It goes into the transmission inlet on the block.
Flywheel: depending on how much cash you have, you may as well get a lightweight flywheel. They are more expensive, but they improve drivetrain efficiency as well as making the engine much more responsive to throttle input.
Pedal Cluster: now you need three pedals. Big shock, right?
Transmission: the primary component. Get a good one.
Shifter linkage/Stick Assembly: pretty much what you will be using from inside the car. This is an item that is usually upgraded with a short shift kit. Get one, as it is usually regarded as one of the best mods one can do to their car, aside from chipping.
Guibo: a device designed to absorb vibration; it is pretty much a rubber torroid. It bolts to the transmission and the driveshaft. Get one new.
Clutch: Get a clutch kit, rather than an individual clutch, as it will save hassle. Sachs is the standard, with several other brands being used in racing and high-power applications. Very important to feel of shifts. The kit should include a Throw Out (TO) bearing, pressure plate, clutch, and possibly an alignment tool.
Clutch Master and Slave cylinders: These make the clutch pedal actually do something, so they are important. Clutch slaves usually start to go around 100k miles, masters around 150k.
Lastly, while not always a part, the driveshaft may need to be altered to accommodate a manual transmission. In most newer (e28+) 5-ers, driveshafts for manual versions are still readily available. Depending on the alterations required, this can cost anywhere between 150-500$, so it is not a negligible factor.
More often than not, the stock manual version also came with a differently-geared differential. It is not required to change differentials to get the swap to work, but since you will be down there, may as well put in a Limited Slip Differential (LSD) to make the car handle better. Entirely up to you.
Basics:
The transmission must bolt to the motor-This is not as simple as it may sound. Before you buy anything, you must be absolutely certain that your transmission will bolt to the motor. Conversion plates are not unheard of, but they are extremely expensive and must be custom made. In other words, lots of money. Save yourself a lot of hassle and either go with a stock transmission/engine combo or go to a pick & pull and test it yourself.
Onto specifics:
I’ll start with the E28, as it is a fairly simple car, and there is an excellent walkthrough already made for the chassis.
There were 3 main models of E28, the 535/533, the 528i, and the M5. The 524td is a very rare car stateside, so I’ll leave it out. The good news is all these cars have interchangeable transmissions. In other words, the 528i transmission will bolt up to a M5 and a 533/535. Also, this body style got BMWs strongest transmission to date, the Getrag 265. This transmission has been known to handle serious (400+) torque stock. Hence, it is sought after quite a bit by enthusiasts. There is a list of various transmissions used in 80s BMWs on Metric Mechanic’s online catalogue, as well as some good reading about the various transmissions. (ratios, reliability, etc.)
This is the easiest modern 5-er to do the swap on, as the electronics are downright simple compared to even an E34. If you are planning on building a fire-breathing custom 5-er rod, get a 528i/5, 1981 model year. This will give you the Getrag 265 and a cheapo motor to pawn. It should also be the easiest car to find and be the cheapest. But I digress.
Walkthrough:
http://www.e28planet.com/DaveKanTransGuide/index.html
Hopefully that walkthrough answered most of your questions.
Onwards, to the E34!
This is the second easiest to swap, mostly because the electronics are pretty unobtrusive. The most common swap is for the 540, as they only made it for 2 years, one of which they offered a manual. Thankfully, one of our wise forum members posted a parts list for the swap. As for the actual procedure, it is much like a normal swap. Do the mechanicals, sort out the electricals.
Originally Posted by Will Allen
Since someone asked ( and I know I looked for this all over the place before I did it! ), here is what I can come up with for all of the parts used in converting my 94 540ia to a 540i/6:
6-speed transmission (msrp ~$5k)
clutch master and slave cylinders
flywheel ( msrp ~700 )
driveshaft ( msrp ~$700-800 )
pedal cluster
shifter and linkage
This is everything I "got" from a donor car via the internet.
In addition, I was invoiced for this from the mechanic:
21 52 1 159 350 fluid hose ( $37.50 )
11 14 1 729 836 gasket ( $5.90 )
11 14 1 710 247 crankshaft seal ($52.25 )
25 11 1 221 822 (2) shift bushing ( $12.40 )
23 70 1 092 201 cross member ( $37.11 )
23 70 1 141 614 (2) trans mount ( $34.20 )
11 21 1 720 310 pilot bearing ( $18.06 )
18 21 1 178 340 (2) exhaust hanger ( $17.00 )
26 12 1 226 657 center support ( $100.20)
25 11 1 222 651 mounting ( $19.37 )
25 11 1 222 365 shift a ( $23.26 )
MTL redline synth mtl ( $18 )
Labor for me would have been $930, which includes reprogramming the reverse lights and the passenger mirror tilt-down stuff. Alas, the tranny I bought was bad, so I had to pay another $600 for diagnosis, removal and installation of a brand new 6-speed.
I still need a shift knob and boot, too.
Hope this helps someone.
-- Will
1994 540i/6 w/Dinan catalogue.
E34 manuals are pretty rare overall, so don’t be discouraged if you can’t find one. The transmissions for the other engine types (M20, M50, M50TU, M30) can be taken from other cars with the same engine. For example, the transmission from a M50 powered 1992 325 will fit on a M50 powered 525. As a side note, the transmissions from the E28 will bolt up to any M30 powered E34, as the E28 used the M30 motor as well. (Gotta love an engine that was in production from 1968-1993) The other motor, the Motorsport S38 can also bolt up to M30 transmissions.
Now for the bad news- E39:
Ah, the E39. An excellent car, right up until the point where you try to mess with it. This car is wired more than a mobster’s phone. Quite simply, with the car values as they sit and the increased number of manuals floating around, it is not worth it to do a manual swap on an E39. All told, a swap in an E39 takes more than triple the time it does on an E34 or E28 because of the electronics, even though mechanically, it is the same procedure. In order to get the E39 to even turn over after a swap, you have to replace the dash cluster, the DME, and fake out the car into thinking the late transmission computer is still spewing signals.
In other words, it costs nearly 8k in parts, regardless of model. (Assuming new parts) Yep, costs the same to swap a 525 as a 540. Lame, isn’t it?
E60 and beyond: I fully expect BMW to make the car give you an electric shock to prevent you from doing any upkeep on the car. It only gets worse from the E39.
So, in summation, the last 5-er you can realistically do a swap in is the E34, it is not cheap, it is not for the faint-of-hands, and should run about 3-6k depending on the quality of parts used.
Last edited by xatlas0; 07-28-2008 at 11:03 AM.
Ultima ratio regum
One additional point - the rear end ratio in the auto is far, far higher in the e34 525i auto than the manual - if you swap that, you'll need a new rear diff as well.
Originally Posted by bimmergirl23
Member
I've been told by several people that the "big six" motors have a different bellhousing pattern than the "baby sx" motors. ie. A 535 tranny won't bolt upto a 525/528 engine. can anyone confirm this?
Member
I took the trans from an 81 528e and bolted it to an 87 735 M30 in my E9. It fits. However, if, for some reason, it doesn't, you can actually remove the bellhousing on the 265 and swap it with the bellhousing from another M30 based one. If you get a 260, then the bellhousing is not easily swapable. If you mean taking the trans from a 3-series car, like a 325 or 325e, those might work, as the clutch sizes are the same. (228mm) Any M10 based car will not work, however, as their clutch size is smaller, meaning the bellhousing is smaller. I highly doubt they changed the block specifically for the 528e over the 325e, so I would say those cars had the same bellhousing bolt patterns, and realoem says they both used the Gertrag 260 as their trans.
Like I said, try to make sure everything bolts up first, before you buy. A pick-n-pull would help the most with that, as then you can just measure everything.
Member
I have confirmed it, a transmission from an M20, WILL NOT bolt up to an M30, and Vice-versa. The diameter of the bellhousing is different, the bolt pattern is different, and the M30 tranny bolts to the motor with a couple of 8mm bolts while the M20 uses all 10mm bolts. Like xatlas0 said, you can swap the bell housing on the 265, but the 260 series tranny's are one piece housings. I've found a 260 series in an '85 528e that is M20 patterned and ready to go in soon, very soon.
On another note, if you have an early e34 (89-91) you might have the clutch return spring mount on your pedal assembly already, meaning that all you need is the clutch and brake pedal from your donor car.
The Great White Shark
sorry to bring up an old thread but xtalas....i would need some of your help ^^
my 540 has auto tranny with step. and is dying now....the torque converter is going too...so rebuild my whole tranny ( included some kind of upgrade )is around $4-5k plus labor.....than i just told myself to just spend some extra to get a 6 speed...since i am going to supercharge it...and i am going to replace the tranny to manual sooner or later...and i know with all this money i throw into...i can just get a 540/6 but here in Hong Kong....i dont think you can find one lol.....
so i have some questions :
1. is $10k enough to do this swap ??
2. which 6spd tranny should i get ??
3. will the m5 tranny works ??
4. i am going to get a m5 cluster so the cluster problem is solve ...right ??
5. do i need to replace my driveshaft,halfshaft and ???
6. and any info from you would be great
thanks
Ken
Current :
1995 E34 525ia : Not too stock
1999 E39 M5 : Heavily Modded
2000 Audi B5 A4 1.8T Avant : RS4 Body-conversion
R.I.P :
1996 E39 540ia : Modded
1998 Porsche Boxster : Not too stock
2005 Mazda 5
Member
Great info. guys from all of u and I hope this will help everyone here starting from me
thanx
Mohamed
E34 540i Manual
Eibakh Pro Kit | Blistein Shocks | EAT Chip | Racing Dynamics Front Stressbar | Racing Dynamics Swaybar Kit | 850cis Front Brake Kit | Zimmerman Cross-Drilled Brake Rotors All Arround | Hawk Street And Racing Brake Pads |Angel Eyes | 8000k HID Xenon Kit All Arround | Plasma Coils | JB Racing Lightweight Aluminum Flywheel
SOLD!! E38 740il
Searching for E39 M5 .......
Member
1. Honestly, I am not sure. I do not know what kind of labor rates you guys have over there, so the 10k value is pretty meaningless. I would suggest finding a shop and getting an estimate that you can hold them to.
2. There is one type of transmission used in the V8-s, the Getrag S6S 420G. You can use the M5 trans, you can use the 540 trans, you can use the 840 trans, if you can find a manual one. You may even be able to use the trans from an 850CSi, but I would make sure that fits in the tunnel and mounts properly before you buy one.
3. Answered in 2.
4. Perhaps, perhaps not. It will still probably need to be reprogrammed.
5. Yes, you will need to replace your driveshaft, as the auto and manual transmissions are different lengths. You should not need to replace your halfshafts unless you chnge to a M5 diff, and even then, I would imagine it is optional.
6. Hope it helps.
As a side note, if you want to get the requirements of such a swap straight from someone who did it, call up a shop here called Performing Imports, in Alpharetta, GA. Ron performed the E39 540 6 speed swap, so he can tell you everything that is required.
The Great White Shark
1. so the m5 6spds is same s the 540 6spds ??
2. both m5 and 540 trans will fits in the tunnel and mounts properly into my 540....right ??
3. can i use a m5 driveshaft ??
Last edited by Ken21; 09-06-2006 at 05:02 PM.
Current :
1995 E34 525ia : Not too stock
1999 E39 M5 : Heavily Modded
2000 Audi B5 A4 1.8T Avant : RS4 Body-conversion
R.I.P :
1996 E39 540ia : Modded
1998 Porsche Boxster : Not too stock
2005 Mazda 5
The Great White Shark
what's the rough est. cost of parts alone ?? i will get the parts used but will get some new parts for some MUST new parts
Current :
1995 E34 525ia : Not too stock
1999 E39 M5 : Heavily Modded
2000 Audi B5 A4 1.8T Avant : RS4 Body-conversion
R.I.P :
1996 E39 540ia : Modded
1998 Porsche Boxster : Not too stock
2005 Mazda 5
Member
The M5 trans has beefier internals (supposedly) than the 540 version. They both have the same model number and are designated by the same names in realoem, so I am not so sure.
The trans you are considering went into the E39 body style, and I kinda doubt they moved the block around too much with the M5 when compared to the 540, so all the mounting hardware should mate just fine.
I suppose you could use a M5 driveshaft. It would probably be cheaper to find a 540i/6 driveshaft, though, since M parts are usually more expensive than their standard counterparts.
As for used parts costs, I really don't know what the market is like in HK. Around here, I can get a used 540 6 speed trans for 500-1000$, but I happen to have a good pick-n-pull relatively close to me. They usually run for about 1-2k in working condition in the US.
The costs of parts alone varies with the required electrical components. Like I said, the electronics drive up the parts cost significantly, usually often doubling the mechanical parts costs. Plus, the HK market is probably different than the US market for these parts.
The Great White Shark
i don't think i can get any parts in HK...since there is almost none E39 540/6 in HK ( less than 5 )....and those who drives M5 won't sell the tranny...so i can only get all the main parts from either taiwan or US....is there anyway you can help me to get it ??
$500 to $1000 for a 540 6 speed tranny sounds good to me....i don't mind paying a little more for a better conditon one....
as for the electronics ....what do i really need ?? a new DME ?? all the wiring ?? re-program my car by GT1 ?? i would say 80% or more parts i will get is from the US...there is nothing i can get in HK...except E36 tranny...
Current :
1995 E34 525ia : Not too stock
1999 E39 M5 : Heavily Modded
2000 Audi B5 A4 1.8T Avant : RS4 Body-conversion
R.I.P :
1996 E39 540ia : Modded
1998 Porsche Boxster : Not too stock
2005 Mazda 5
Member
Shipping will be your biggest "lame" cost, more than likely. To get some of the parts, I would suggest Strictly German. It will be rather difficult to get them to trust that you aren't a scammer, though.
As for the specific parts required, I am unsure, I have heard conflicting reports. That is why I suggested calling Performing Imports, as they actually know.
The Great White Shark
can you get me a tranny and driveshaft ??? plz....
Current :
1995 E34 525ia : Not too stock
1999 E39 M5 : Heavily Modded
2000 Audi B5 A4 1.8T Avant : RS4 Body-conversion
R.I.P :
1996 E39 540ia : Modded
1998 Porsche Boxster : Not too stock
2005 Mazda 5
Member
This is awesome information for sure but I don't know if I could handle all the work and just buy a manual from the start.
1999 528i Touring
Member
I've been looking at using a Getrag 265 for a twin-turbo V8 project and I've got a few questions I'd like to ask:
- First off will the 265 handle ~650lb-ft of torque in a 3500lb car assuming it is driven sensibly with no 6000rpm clutch drops and all that other nonsense? I've heard of 700bhp Turbo I6s with a Getrag 265, but I've also heard of E21s with M90s breaking trannies...
- Does anybody know if it is at all possible to mix and match ratios between the 265/5 and 265/6? Ideally I'd use 3rd and 4th out of the /5 CR box as 2nd and 3rd respectively, coupled with a custom, taller, 1st gear ratio. But this is just wishful thinking at this point...
- Is the Getrag 280 any stronger than the 265?
- What is the shaft spacing on these trannies? Should give me a good idea of how strong it is. Are there any parts (gear ratios) interchangeable between 260,262,265,280, etc trannies? I live overseas and Beemer trannies can be had for a dime a dozen here...
Member
That is the transmission from the E39 M5 and it can handle 650lbs of torque and well over 700bhp.
Member
The unit itself i quite strong, based on all accounts. The most common source of failure is synchro failure. The 265 used studier synchros than the 260. The main thing that affects synchro life, however, is the driver, as many people have reported failing synchros in E39 540s and M5s. Proper upkeep of the transmission is also important. I have a 265 used in an E28 528i and it still shifts smooth after almost 200k miles. (in my E9) If you want to have transmission "built", there are several people that can do this, like Blaton or Metric Mechanic.
I do not think the internal components of the CR and OD boxes are interchangeable, as the shift forks were different and the shift pattern different. As such, the shafts and gears in the CR box are arranged differently, and I doubt they would mesh well in the OD setup. You could try though, or give someone like Metric Mechanic a call, as they can do custom ratios in their transmissions.
Some have said yes, others no. It doesn't help there are several versions of the 280, each with different strength ratings. I'd use the 265 for the ease of replacement and cheapness of rebuilding, personally. The seperate bellhousing is quite nice.
For internal dimensions and schematics, I think you'd have to get a rebuild guide. Hm, I think I still have it up, if you are interested. It is from the factory blue books:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg982h...procedure1.pdf
Member
So does anybody know the shaft spacing on these trannies?
It seems VERY small in the rebuild manual...
What's the input shaft diameter for M30 Beemers? 10splines x 27mm?
Member
Based on this:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...88&hg=23&fg=15
it does appear the input shaft is 27mm. I don't know the number of splines, unfortunately.
Member
Using the diagram in the rebuild manual, and using the input shaft diameter as a reference, shaft spacing is around 72mm which is pretty damn small for a tranny supposedly this strong! I found that the shaft spacing is ~2.625 times the outer diameter of the input shaft (at the OD of the splines)
Member
Another question for you guys, how do you tell a 265/5 CR box apart from a 265/6 box? Does the dogleg box housing have a "262" casting number whereas the OD box doesn't? I may have found one locally, for a very favorable price too, and just wanted to be sure since I couldn't find any ID tags... Thanks!
PS - the "262" housing in question is a 3-piece
Member
Many of the 265's have a 262 cast case. The unit is identical to the 262, expect for that third section, which they added for the other gear.
In terms of telling the two apart, other than checking the part numbers, you could o a quick test by hooking up a shifter to the unit and feeling for the gates, since the shift pattern of the OD and CR boxes are different.
Dont mess with the best
Yea this thread helps me out alot... If you wanna manual E34 just buy another E34. Price sounds like the same unless you get some mad deals on the tranny and various parts. I'll stick with my auto
"I feel like someone just took a shit in my head. I have no idea whats going on." -APav
Member
The tranny in question is sitting on a shelf @ my local BMW breaker yard sans shifter. He's offering it for an absurdly low price which leads me to believe that he doesn't quite know what he's got there, and I have no intention of alerting him either, so I'm not too keen on trying it out with a shifter, and would rather stick to visual clues. Now the tranny in question is a 3-piece unit, and has a 262 casting number on the intermediate housing (the one between the bellhousing and the tail housing). I don't quite recall if it was sand-cast or die-cast but I can check tomorrow. Is surface roughness a surefire indication of tranny type? I also recall reading that the tailhousings of the /5 and /6 boxes were different, but I don't know the difference, so I'd really appreciate it if somebody were to enlighten me. Remember, we're limited to visual cues here, and the tranny is missing any sort of ID tag
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks