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Thread: E46 330 Brake upgrade

  1. #1
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    E46 330 Brake upgrade

    [QUOTE]Quote:
    Dont know if these have been posted...but here is a missive from Dave Zeckhausen concerning this exact topic:

    f you want the most flexibility for using factory and aftermarket
    wheels without thick wheel spacers, you should avoid the Brembo and
    StopTech big brake upgrades and, instead, grab a set of front brakes
    from an E46 330i. It's a direct bolt-on and would replace your 286mm x
    22mm rotors with much bigger 325mm x 25mm rotors. The only restriction
    is the requirement for 17" wheels.

    You would need the following parts to make the conversion:

    34-11-6-750-149 Left Caliper
    34-11-6-750-150 Right Caliper
    34-10-6-750-158 Caliper Carriers (QTY 2)
    34-11-6-750-159 Spring Clips (QTY 2)

    Pacific BMW (1-800-909-PART) is a good source for these parts at a
    discoutn price. I would suggest going to the aftermarket for a set of
    Balo, Brembo, ATE, or Zimmerman rotors rather than getting them from a
    BMW dealer. Quality is the same and price is lower.

    I would suggest aftermarket pads. You should probably consider Axxis
    Ultimate pads if you intend to do any high performance driving. If you
    are going to road race the car on the track, then you'll need some track
    pads. I can provide those.

    Dave

    __________________
    [/QUOTE

    Sorry to dig up an old thead but, I'm very interested in what I've read here and I'd like someone just to confirm that this can be done to the Z3 2,8 with same parts as above.

    Thanks in advance, Carlo.

    I posted this yesterday but in the wrong area :

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ight=rotors%29

    Basically that's it,the same question as I asked yesterday, is it the same mod for the Z models. I have the 2.8.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Streetline; 05-11-2006 at 12:05 PM.
    [/IMG]

  2. #2
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    One caveat: You must do the appropriate rear brake upgrade or you will screw up your brake bias. E46 and E36 brakes have different MCs and valving in the ABS unit, and thus need different sized front vs rear brakes relative to each other to get the ideal brake bias.

    -Chris

  3. #3
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    call me crazy but i was looking at replacement aftermarket calipers for a e46 330i and I found calipers for $76 a piece at www.rockauto.com , just search the parts catalog

    they are a1 cardone #192860.

    anyone know anything about these? Could you just upgrade to these they are suppose to be aftermarket replacements.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbirru
    call me crazy but i was looking at replacement aftermarket calipers for a e46 330i and I found calipers for $76 a piece at www.rockauto.com , just search the parts catalog

    they are a1 cardone #192860.

    anyone know anything about these? Could you just upgrade to these they are suppose to be aftermarket replacements.
    they are remanufactured calipers, not aftermarket replacements. and they also require a core, hence the core charge of 50 bucks, bringing the total to 126.79.
    bmw-less.

  5. #5
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    anyone know anything about a1 cardone
    I keep searching on generic sites and I keep coming up with replacement calipers for a 330i around $80 seem like a good deal to me. I figure they will work just as good too because they fit the same size rotor
    here is some links...may have to search on the page

    http://webepc.wrencheadpro.com/cgi-b...0.cmm+global41

    http://www.autopartsgiant.com/CAT_FRAMEX.cfm

    www.rockauto.com

    right caliper 192860
    left caliper 192861

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by stirpicult
    they are remanufactured calipers, not aftermarket replacements. and they also require a core, hence the core charge of 50 bucks, bringing the total to 126.79.
    Isn't taht cheaper than stock 330 from bmw?? How much do they normally run?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetline
    I would suggest aftermarket pads. You should probably consider Axxis
    Ultimate pads if you intend to do any high performance driving. If you
    are going to road race the car on the track, then you'll need some track
    pads. I can provide those.
    Do people really upgrade to 330 brakes if they aren't tracking their car? Isn't that a pointless waste of cash?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbirru
    Isn't taht cheaper than stock 330 from bmw?? How much do they normally run?
    i have no clue. i was just pointing out that it wasn't an upgrade (as "aftermarket" tends to get people to think) and it was really 126 a side. i'm sorry it is cheaper, since it's not brand new.
    bmw-less.

  9. #9
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    @ tbone

    Those words that you have quoted weren't originally mine.

    Do people really upgrade to 330 brakes if they aren't tracking their car? Isn't that a pointless waste of cash?
    I think that a lot of things that are discussed on this board could be considered " A pointless waste of cash " if you really want to see it in that way.

    The whole point in the 330 upgrade is to obtain improved braking performance without going to the expense of an aftermarket BBK such as Stoptech or Brembo. Don't forget that these are OEM parts that it may even be possible to obtain economically from a salvage yard.
    [/IMG]

  10. #10
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    Back to my original question: Are these "upgrade" parts cross compatible between the E36 328 and the Z3 2.8 ?


    One caveat: You must do the appropriate rear brake upgrade or you will screw up your brake bias. E46 and E36 brakes have different MCs and valving in the ABS unit, and thus need different sized front vs rear brakes relative to each other to get the ideal brake bias.

    -Chris
    Thanks for pointing that out to me, I wasn't aware that there is a potential front / rear bias issue.

    I had read in the original FAQ thread (link above) that there would be an extra inch or so travel at the bake pedal but the bias issue was not mentioned and the general direction of the discussion seemed to be towards only changing the front brakes.

    Any other advice appreciated.
    [/IMG]

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetline
    @ tbone

    Those words that you have quoted weren't originally mine.



    I think that a lot of things that are discussed on this board could be considered " A pointless waste of cash " if you really want to see it in that way.

    The whole point in the 330 upgrade is to obtain improved braking performance without going to the expense of an aftermarket BBK such as Stoptech or Brembo. Don't forget that these are OEM parts that it may even be possible to obtain economically from a salvage yard.
    My bad I got confused with the levels of quotes

    330 brakes aren't going to improve your braking performance. They'll take a lot more abuse, but who needs that on the street?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetline

    Thanks for pointing that out to me, I wasn't aware that there is a potential front / rear bias issue.

    I had read in the original FAQ thread (link above) that there would be an extra inch or so travel at the bake pedal but the bias issue was not mentioned and the general direction of the discussion seemed to be towards only changing the front brakes.

    Any other advice appreciated.
    You have to calculate the stock brake torque bias based on the dimensions of the brake rotors and calipers, first (with and assumed line pressure). When this is done, you know the "balance" or brake torques you need front to rear at the disk/caliper.

    This balance, if everything UPSTREAM to the master cylinder is constant, should be about 67%/33% for ideal brake bias in a 50/50 car. If the car is nose heavy, you need more bias up front, and vis-versa. This is why you see FWD cars with big front brakes and tiny rears, and why you see Porsche 911s with massive brakes both front AND rear. (Ideal brake bias balance is actually a function of load transfer under braking, but we can simplify this to front/rear weight distribution as opposed to actually finding the center of gravity (CofG) of a car, and resolving the load transfer under x-g's amount of braking.

    Anyway, getting back to the bias calculations....the E34 M5 for example has a near 67%/33% brake torque bias, with no bias valves, no ABS unit trickery, no stepped master cylinder; i.e. the same line pressure front and rear. The E36 M3 is also the exact same (i.e. same line pressures front and rear).

    The E36 325i, for example is about 61%/39%. The E36 325i also has different ABS and master cylinders than the E36 M3, which means there is a proportioning valve in the system to give different line pressures front and rear. Should you keep the E36 325i ABS and MC the same, then you need to resolve the brake torques from your rotor and caliper upgrades to get as close to 61%/39% as possible. The E36's upstream components will resolve themselves for the appropriate line pressure at the front and rear brakes to get you a physically near 67%/33% actual brake torque bias.

    The calculations for brake torque are reasonably simple hydraulic pressure/force calculations. I have a spreadsheet at home that does this for me for a variety of different set-ups.

    What I've found is that none of the Zionsville E46 upgrade "kits" front and rear really match the E36's requirements. You can get near, but it's not ideal. That is why I wouldn't recommend the Zionsville kits completely.

    I don't have that spreadsheet here at work, but I can look it up for ya and give you some examples when I'm home. I'll make sure to get you the E46 330i fronts and stock E36 325/8i rears, and which rears you'll need to get the bias correct with the 330i fronts.

    -Chris

  13. #13
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    good information. i have been doing research on a brake upgrade on my Ti since i put the 6 cylinder in. im glad i found this thread.
    BMWMOFO C6MPACT

  14. #14
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    My bad I got confused with the levels of quotes

    330 brakes aren't going to improve your braking performance. They'll take a lot more abuse, but who needs that on the street?
    No worries, I did present it poorly thanks anyway.


    Ok, so I'd get greater resistance to fading etc but not necessarily shorter stopping distances.. hmm. I suppose that is always an improvement though.

    I became more interested in this conversion also because I know where there's a totalled E46 330 and thought, well if I can get the parts for a reasonable price it would make a good weekend project. Also, my current front disks will be up for renewal soon.

    @ Chris

    Thanks for taking the time to explain the significance of the bias ratio in such a detailed manner. Very interesting.
    Last edited by Streetline; 05-11-2006 at 12:46 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tb0ne
    330 brakes aren't going to improve your braking performance.

    are you sure about that? how do they not?
    bmw-less.

  16. #16
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    Larger rotors and pads do not guarantee a shorter stopping distance.

    330 front brake pads are the same size as the pads for an E36 M3. While it's true that 330 brakes give you increased pad-to-rotor contact area, you also gain a few pounds of unsprung weight at each wheel due to the larger rotor and caliper mass. If you have 15" or 16" wheels now and want to put 330 front brakes on your car, be aware that you'll also have to switch to 17" (minimum) wheels and tires, which also increases the amount of unsprung weight.

    Tire compound, ambient temperature, the condition of your suspension, and vehicle weight are just a few of the factors that help determine your car's stopping distance.
    Last edited by G. P. Burdell; 05-11-2006 at 01:23 PM.

  17. #17
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    I currently have the OEM 17" wheels so that's not a problem.

    330 front brake pads are the same size as the pads for an E36 M3.
    So the E36 M3 or E36 MZ3 swap would yield the same results. I think I would need to change the spindles though.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Streetline; 05-11-2006 at 01:45 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. P. Burdell
    Larger rotors and pads do not guarantee a shorter stopping distance.

    <snip>

    Tire compound, ambient temperature, the condition of your suspension, and vehicle weight are just a few of the factors that help determine your car's stopping distance.
    Correct on all counts... The stock system is limited by traction, not fade. Even on track, the stock components will last 30 minute sessions unless you're running in the advanced or instructor groups and really pushing it at a place like Sebring or Summit Point. Even so, the rotors and calipers work fine. The pad compound and brake fluid choice have more to do with how quickly fade sets in.

    Bigger components offer more surface area for cooling and pad contact at the price of increased unsprung weight and rotational mass. Going to larger rotors and wheels has the same effect as putting a heavier flywheel on a motor. It now takes more energy to accelerate all the rotating components, which equals being slower unless there's more power available.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetline
    So the E36 M3 or E36 MZ3 swap would yield the same results.
    The M brake swap would yield similar results. M3 front rotors are 315x28mm compared to 325x25mm for 330 rotors. I forget which one is heavier. The difference isn't huge.

  20. #20
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    Wouldnt a zionsville kit for e46 brakes all around be simmilar enough bias for a non-m e36 car?

    Can someone pull up the bias ratios on both cars?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by photopaintball
    Wouldnt a zionsville kit for e46 brakes all around be simmilar enough bias for a non-m e36 car?

    Can someone pull up the bias ratios on both cars?
    OK...here's the brake torques with constant line pressure, stock MC and no proportioning valves anywhere on stock E34s: (front/rear)

    E34 M5: 68.8% / 31.2%
    E34 535i: 67.5% / 32.5%
    These cars are near 50/50, in fact I believe the 535i is perfect 50/50 static weight distribution. The brakes are very well biased indeed.

    Now, if you do the brake torques at the wheels for the E36, with constant input line pressure but with it's stock MC you'll get these:
    -- E36 325i standard: 68.1% / 31.9%
    -- E36 328i convertible: 66.3% / 33.7%

    These are some of the aftermarket ones available:
    E36 Brembo Upgrade 1 front and rear (320mm fronts): 66.6% / 33.4%
    E36 Brembo Upgrade 2 front and rear (335mm fronts): 67.8% / 32.2%
    E36 StopTech Upgrade 1 front and rear (332mm fronts): 64.8 % / 35.2%

    Personally, I feel that the StopTech one may be a bit to rearward biased.

    Now, here are the E46s (discounting proportioning that the DSC unit does):
    E46 323i stock: 60.8% / 39.2%
    E46 325/8i stock: 60.4% / 39.6%
    E46 330i stock: 60.7 % / 39.3%
    (So we know that the E46s use a proportioning valve somewhere down the line in the DSC/ASC units to get at the wheel brake torques correct)

    And now, for some combinations that you can put on an E36 (keeping MC and ABS units constant) (here's the brake torque at the wheels distributions):

    1. E36 with E46 323i brakes front and rear: 64% / 36%
    -- Too much rear brakes.
    E36 with E46 325i/8i front and E46 323i rear: 65%/35%
    -- Slightly too much rear brakes

    2. E36 with 325/8i E46 brakes front and rear: 64% / 36%
    -- Again, way too much rear brakes for the E36. Too much rear bias (while maybe wanted on track) can cause you to lock up rear brakes quicker than fronts...and perhaps lose control under braking. Granted, we have ABS....but no driver aid is a match for pure physics.

    2. E36 with E46 325/8i front, E36 328iC rear: 68% / 32%
    -- I feel this is a good combo. 16's fit under it too.

    3. E36 with E46 330i front and rear: 66 % / 34%
    -- This isn't much different than the E36 328iC set-up, but I still feel it may be just a tad too much rear biased. In any case, it's very decent, potentially cheap, but only 17's (and some 16s) fit on it.

    4. E36 with E46 330i front and E46 325i/328i rear: 68% / 32%
    -- This is an ideal street set-up. But again, only 17s fit.

    5. E36 with E36 M3 fronts and E46 330i rears: 67% / 33%
    -- Again, only 17's and some 16s fit., also ideal set-up

    Now, I like a lot of stuff Zionsville's done. But here's they're set-ups:

    Stage 1: E46 325i/328i fronts / E46 323i rears
    Stage 2: E46 330i fronts / E46 325i/328i rears
    Stage 3: M3 fronts / E46 330i rears

    I'd only really recommend stage 2 and 3. Not Stage 1, as it gives slightly too much rear brake bias.

    If you've got 17s, and don't plan on keeping 16s, then most any brake upgrade is ok. But if you must run 16s...you're pretty much SOL. Only #2 really works well (E46 325i/328i fronts and E36 328iC rears).

    Hope this helps.

    -Chris

    EDIT: I corrected a mistake on the rear 330i info I had and the Zionsville set-ups. I also now include brake torques at the wheels for the E36s. Also, these set-ups ARE NOT valid for ti's or Z3's as those cars use different rear suspension trailing arms and regular E36 brakes won't fit on the rears.
    Last edited by cgraff; 05-12-2006 at 01:14 PM.

  22. #22
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    thanks a lot

  23. #23
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    Thanks for all the great info.
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  24. #24
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    Yeah thanks a lot for the info. I was worried for a sec. there when i started reading the beginning of this thread as i had already installe dmy zionsville kit. Luckily its the stage 2 complete with stainless steel lines. Quick question, does anyone know what if any changes need to be made to the master cylinder?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikiro
    Quick question, does anyone know what if any changes need to be made to the master cylinder?
    Larger caliper pistons can contribute to a soft pedal feel or longer pedal travel. If you want to firm up the pedal, install an E36 M3 brake master cylinder. Search my user name and "brake master cylinder" for a thread that may be useful.

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