Porterfield R4S users. . . .

[frayed]

Did you notice a hit in intitial bite over stock?

I've had 3 different aftermarket street pads in my car, and while most offered great braking torque once your foot is into it, the aggressive initial bite of stock was not there.

I'm wondering about the R4S pads as a possible solution. I had the R4 pads for the track, and they felt incredible on the track (until I overcooked them), so I'm hoping that the R4S pads might have a similar feel (of course for street use).

[Hank]

brake dust, (wash my car at least once or sometimes twice a week) I use stock pagids, but if anyone has tried the pagid sports, I'd be interested in their opinion. I don't track but I would consider a less dusty pad if they had as good a bite or close to stock.

What do you think?

Hank

[Jim O.]

It's been a long time since I've had stock pads on my car, so I don't know if I can really compare...

Anyway, I feel the R4S has awesome initial bite compared to the Hawk HPS or the Carbotech Type F pads. We're able to do things with quick brake taps that used to take actually getting on the brakes pretty hard. When I rode on an autox run with my codriver, I felt like we were going to go through the windshield every time he hit the brakes...

Right now, I'm pretty happy with the R4S, but I'd also like to try the Hawk HP+, and maybe the Ferodo and the Axxis Ultimate. But, like you, I'm really concerned about having that super-aggressive initial bite - without that, the pad just isn't going to be suitable for the purpose of my car.

Jim

[Hank]

I think of all the pads I've heard about, the R4S is what I'd try based on what I've heard on the board, But since I hate ill-fitting clicky-fit pads, (not saying they are) Iv'e never tried anything but stock, and only changed my rotors (floating f & stock r) once. Has anybody tried the Pagid Sports?

Hank

[frayed]

Jim O. Many thanks. I think that your experience with the R4S pads might just seal it for me.

Last week, I hopped out of my car (with HPS pads) and into a friend's car (willis), and was reminded how truly awesome the stock pads perform. The initial bite of the stock pads actually transform the car, and make if feel more 'nimble' and sporty. . . this makes sense given that you only really have three inputs to your car, acceleration, turning, braking. When you negatively impact any one of those components it hurts the driving experience IMHO.

I have a set of Axxis Ultimates that you may be able to try out free of charge. I'll ping Andie (Cobalt) if you are interested. It's either me or maybe it's just my car, but the Axxis pads didn't have the initial bite I wanted. They do feel better than the HPS pads though, w/o doubt.

[Jim O.]

Basically, I want the car to feel like it's going to do a "stoppie" whenever I hit the brakes hard, and want to feel the weight move forward when I tap the brakes - if the Axxis Ultimates come anywhere near that, I'd be interested in giving them a try.

Just remember, the drawback of the R4S is that they tend to get noisy and start squealing around 5000 miles. I took them off, cleaned them up, then used a bunch of orange goop, and that seemed to take care of the problem. However, since you have to swap back and forth between track pads and street pads, you might want to see if you can get a set of teflon antisqueal shims instead of the goop...

Jim

[rhl]

Yeah, I don't think I've had stock pads on any of my BMW's for over 5 years now! I can't even remember how they work, except I do remember some bad fade issues. So does everyone agree that the stock pads have the best initial bite? What pad is second? I think the dust from the stockers is about the same as my Hawk HP+'s.

RHL

[norman]

My porterfields have about 2k miles on them. After break-in, they felt great, no loss of initial bite and no fades at the track. Now some of the initial bite is not there but still fade free at the track. I read the review of Ferrados and may try it after these are toast.

[frayed]

rhl,

Among street pads I'd love to find a pad that has a better initial bite than stock. I've tried Hawk HPS, Axxis Ultimates, Rotex. None approximate the stock initial bite, the Axxis being the best however.

Hopefully the Porterfield units fit the bill.

I'm guessing the HP+ have better bite than stock. . . with the amount of noise and dust they make, they should!

[Hank]

Somebody? Anybody? Maybe...

Hank

[jayhudson]

Jeff-

I've had the R4S pads for about a year, 8K+ miles. One track day. Added them along with Euro floaters.

I don't think I lost anything appreciable in initial bite. One thing I didn't like about my stock Textars was that they seemed to be grabby at 1st touch of the pedal. I don't think that's what you're referring to as initial bite. But, maybe it is. I found it very annoying. It was like there was no way of gracefully applying the brakes. I don't have that problem with the Porterfields. I love 'em. I noticed no fading at the track. Many stops from say 105ish to 35. I never had to lengthen my braking zone. I think I got into the ABS a couple of times, but not sure. Did lots of short stabs to set the car OkeyDokey coming into turns where I was going slower.

BTW, I used a heavy coating of the Permatex blue spray-on goop (don't like that pink stuff). I've had no noise and considerably less dust than stock.

I haven't taken measurements, but I'd say the pads are no more than 25% worn.

Jay

[frayed]

Thanks Jay. They really sound like a winner.

[Neil]

I switched from stock pad to R4S. It is an excellent autox pad -- good initial bite when cold -- but can handle an occassional drivers' school event when I'm too lazy to put the R4s on front. (I keep the R4Ss at rear ot track.) When the fronts begin squealing, I pull them off and put on some new anti-squeal goop.

[///M3 2 NV]

Originally posted by frayed
I'm guessing the HP+ have better bite than stock. . . with the amount of noise and dust they make, they should!

Jeff,

Why don't you ever try my car and find out?! I have the HP+ pads on her!

[cobalt]

I am curious on a point. Would you all agree that what we mean by "initial bite" is a significance sensation of decceleration with minimal pedal effort?

-Andie

[frayed]

Jim, yeah, let's swap cars to compare. Andie, yes, I would agree on your description. I like being able to brush the pedal and get serious deceleration. Once on the pedal, the Axxis are awesome, and better than the Hawks.

[///M3 2 NV]

Originally posted by frayed
Jim, yeah, let's swap cars to compare. Andie, yes, I would agree on your description. I like being able to brush the pedal and get serious deceleration. Once on the pedal, the Axxis are awesome, and better than the Hawks.

Ok, let's meet up next week.

We also need to have HH! :

[cobalt]

Jeff,

If you'd like to take charge of a Cobalt-brake-pad-trial...I can send you pads for you to let people try out...within reason. I do this at track events that I attend in person.

On the initial bite issue, I I told you via e-mail, I have one customer who drives the DS3000 on the street (despite my advising not to), because he said the initial bite, even when cold, is very good/strong. That being said, the DS3000 was not designed for street use...

Jeff...as the Axxis Ultimate are "awesome" as you say, once you get into the pedal, I'm assuming that you are not willing to give up some initial bite for increased overall braking torque, as well as fade resistance? I realize we all have out own set of priorities, which is why there are different product to choose from.

Also, the previous drawback from my selling the DS3000 for the rear fitment was the price: $151.xx. However, I have secured better pricing: $102.44...which makes it much more attractive.

-Andie

[BJO]

Frayed: the R4S do have a good initial bite. i should've let you try them out when i was still in austin. they squeal occasionally on me, but i'll live with it. i'm too lazy to apply anti-squeal. they work well at most of the auto-x's i've gone to. i've gotten them to fade after 4 or 5 back-to-back hard practice runs with about 3 minutes of cooling. i know they work and i am hesitant on trying out new pads.

[mmaigret]

I have the R4S pads for the street and I am completely happy with them. Here's my notes as far as comparison with other pads is concerned (in the order I tried them)...

1) Stock pads. Like Luni2nz, I always thought the stock pads were very difficult to modulate at low speeds (like over speed bumps). I imagine that this was somewhat due to the strong initial bite of the stock pads. Also, I was experiencing quite a bit of brake squeal under light braking, which we all know is embarrassing and annoying on the street. Not to mention the 'wheels look like sh&t in one day' brake dusting characteristics.

2) Repco Deluxe. IMHO, total absolute garbage. Not worth the box they're shipped in. The worst brake pads I've ever had the displeasure of using. After installing these pads along with Euro front rotors, I kept thinking I didn't do a good job bleeding the brakes afterward because I had no initial bite, no brake torque, and massive fade after one or two totally depressing stops from 60mph. After bleeding the brakes several times and seeing no improvement in performance, I gave up and called Porterfield. The Repco's do have virtually no dust though

3) Porterfield R4S. Oh my god, after the Repco experience, braking Fred Flintstone stlye would have been an improvement, so maybe my reaction is skewed, but these R4S pads were awesome. After a quick bedding session, I was able to generate tremdendous braking torque during the first 10-15mph deceleration(sp?) from 50mph even when the pads were completely cold. You can actually feel the pads heating up and braking torque increasing exponentially as you decelerate. Initial bite is kind of sh*tty the first stop or two after the brakes have cooled significantly, but after one or two decent stops from 40mph or so, initial bite as well as braking torque is awesome. During bedding, I was able to get the pads to fade after about 4-5 60-5 mph stops in rapid succession- pretty good for a street pad. Dusting is slightly more than Repco's, but nothing close to stock pads. Also, I have experienced no squeal at all in 5k or so miles. However, I re-bed frequently after track days...

4) Performance Friction 'PF90'. Sick braking. I'm talking 'sparks flying out of the front wheel wells' braking. No fading, tremendous torque, but lots of dust, rattle, and squeal. Good bite once warmed up, but I wouldn't run them on the street as they cool off quickly between heavy brake applications. Also, I have had no problems with material transfer as some have reported with these pads. Usually a day or two after track days, I put the R4S's back on and re-bed no problem.

Anyway, the above is IMHO and of course, YMMV.

Oh, and be sure to mention Suzy's list for a discount through Portferfield. Them R4S's aren't cheap!

[frayed]

mmaigret, yeah, I bought the my R4 track pads with the digest disount. Softened the blow quite a bit.

Andie, you said,

Jeff...as the Axxis Ultimate are "awesome" as you say, once you get into the pedal, I'm assuming that you are not willing to give up some initial bite for increased overall braking torque, as well as fade resistance? I realize we all have out own set of priorities, which is why there are different product to choose from.

On the one hand, as Jay pointed out above, and as mmaigret noted, the very strong initial bite of the stock pads can be hard to modulate at low speeds. However, above walking speed, I had no problems with stock brake pads, except the noise and dust.

Turning to the Axxis pads, I'd say that once past the initial bite, they will haul your car down in a hurry, and are easy to modulate right on the edge of ABS. They feel like a track pad for the street in that area of pedal application. Very nice.

However, since I'm not an autox guy, I find that most of the driving entails surprising little braking. Just driving around 'normally' on city streets, I'm probably only using 20% of the potential of the braking system. I doubt that many people drive their M3 around on the street, late braking at each stoplight, near ABS. Likewise, threshold braking is the opposite of what is practiced on the street.

This is not to say I'm a pussycat (meow), but as compared to what you demand of your braking system on the track at triple digits speeds with sticky tires, street demands are very very light.

Still further, with fresh fluid (I always have decent fluid in given the fact that I bleed/flush before track events), I think that if one can generate fade from any pad I've tried (HPS, Ultimate, Rotex), then you are a menace to society. It takes repetitive high speed, high tq braking, done with a frequency to inhibit cool down, to cause fade issues on a properly functioning brake system. This is very hard do on the street, especially on street tires. Even a hard canyon run.


So. . .

Fade and ultimate braking tq are NOT primary concerns for a street pad (but of paramount importance on the track, along with high temp characteristics, which is why I swap pads out for track use).

OTOH, the above analysis changes once we talk of using a street driven car as an auto-x or track machine on the same set of pads.

Picking some arbitrary numbers, I'd assign initial bite as follows:

stock, 10
Axxis, 7
HPS, 5
Rotex, 3

I hope that sheds a little light on where I'm coming from.

[BiMaW]

I'm running the Axxis Ultimates and couldn't be happier with them. (Thanks Andie@cobalt) Initial bite isn't nearly as responsive as the stock Jurids as frayed mentioned, but the pads have much better feel once on the brakes.

They performed great on the track as well and hardly experienced any fade.

[RUddin3]

Jeff-
The R4S's need some heat build-up in them before they start working well. I think mmaigret's impression is right on
the money,

Drive Safely,
Raza

[tlp-96M3/2]

Jeff,

For what it's worth, I went through the exact same gyrations as mmaigret in the same order Stock>Repco MM> Porterfield 4RS with exception of PF90's.

The reason I ditched the Repco's was total lack of initial bite from stock. I'm very happy with the Porterfields even though they see no track or auto-x time. I'm still running the Repco's in the rear and the fronts dust at almost the same rate as the rears, very clean. The only minor downside from a street prospective is that the 4RS can be a little noisy when braking hard.

[MKS]

I loved the initial bite of stock pads, but now that I'm using EBC Redstuffs, I'm MUCH smoother when heel/toeing. I do miss the initial bite around town though. I guess I'll try the R4S pads next.