E36 and E46 only!
Umm, a stock M42 makes 137bhp, 31hp down from 168bhp...Im sure its 168WhpOriginally Posted by ts295
We never got the E30 M3 in SA.
Don't preach to me about the S42, I know alot more about it than you do! As for my motor being a joke, GET FUCKED!!! I have worked really hard on it and have been an inspiration for other 318i owners on this forum, I have helped alot of people and gave them faith in the M42 engine. If you don't like it then step the fuck off and keep your cheap-shot comments to yourself.
BTW, the S42 made up to 315bhp @ 8400rpm on the BMW ECU. That would have translated to around 265-270whp.
No 2 dynos will give you the same readings, you should know that. What altitude have you E30 M3 guys being tuning at? Mine is at sea level...
You should get more than 160whp, unless you dyno'ing at altitude..
Member
easy now fella.
a standard m42 makes 136bhp at the FLYWHEEL not the wheels. WHP = wheel horsepower. your motor makes 168bhp at the FLYWHEEL. a 328i makes 192 bhp at the FLYWHEEL. a 320is (S14 2l) makes 192bhp at the FLYWHEEL, and a 2.3 S14 makes over 200bhp at the FLYWHEEL, but about 160whp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ts295
no hating, gizmo, i just don't buy that, sorry! i don't se ehow that spec can relate to the power you're talking. are you 100% that you didn't made 168bhp at the flywheel? that would be much more believable with your spec.
Umm, a stock M42 makes 137bhp, 31hp down from 168bhp...Im sure its 168Whp
why do you think that 168bhp at the flywheel is so low for your car, its a good figure for a standardish 2l 16v? i know you have a high CR, but its about the mark. whereas 168 at the wheels is far too high, that would be over 100bhp/litre as I've already stated which is far too much.
if we take it that your car is 168bhp at the flywheel, you've increased displacement by about 14% and a few other odds and sods and got nearly a 25% increase in power. not bad, but kinda what you'd expect.
good for you! (I actually doubt that too) If you knew so much about it, you'd know that it bears virtually no resemblence to your engine, or mine for that matter. and you certainly wouldn't be calling your engine an S42B20Don't preach to me about the S42, I know alot more about it than you do!
grow upGET FUCKED!!!
Last edited by ts295; 04-03-2006 at 07:14 PM.
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
Member
& about 115 @ the wheels here in the states anyway. I'd like to see the dyno charts as well 168 @ the wheels does sound kinda high to me with what you have.Umm, a stock M42 makes 137bhp, 31hp down from 168bhp...Im sure its 168Whp
Last edited by black318i; 04-05-2006 at 10:28 PM.
WMRRA #22
i dont give a shit what they say. Gizmo Great job!!
E36 and E46 only!
Get your facts straight...I AM MAKING 168WHEEL HORSE POWER!!! I am making 20whp more than a stock 328i...
You've got red on you.
stock 325i's dyno around 160whp...
Member
gizmo, I understand that that's what you think. rather than just re-iterating this, why don't you try to help me understand this figure by explaining how you think its possible that you've made this figure? what do you think is responsible? cos as i hope you can appreciate, especially with your inside-out knowledge of the S42, it seems far too high for the modifications you've done. it doesn't help that you haven't given the full picture - what RPM, the plot and the torque curve etc.
a standard m42 makes 75bhp/litre, which is pretty good. you're suggesting that by increasing the capacity and a few odds and sods, without changing the inlet or the exhaust of the engine significantly, in fact not even touching the cylinder head or throttle body or exhaust manifold, you've increased that figure to somewhere around 100bhp per litre, which seems totally unfeasible. just look at what other 2l 16v engines with similar sized valves etc make and you'll see your figure seems way too high.
a 328i has the same size inlet and exhaust valves as your engine but VANOS, 800cc more capacity and 2 more cylinders. given that they rev to a similar rpm, why should your engine make 20whp more? sure you're running a higher CR but thats not going to make up for 2 less cylinders and 800cc less. 170bhp at the flywheel, however, sounds about right.
you still haven't helped me out by explaining how it can possibly be making more hp per litre than an S50b32 or an S14. the S50b32 runs 11.3:1 CR, has massive throttle bodies, much bigger inlet valves than your engine, dual VANOS and better valve gear yet still can't make the figures you're claiming. an S14 has even bigger valves again, very nice inlet and exhaust ports and throttle bodies. both engines run at higher RPMs than your engine, have better valve gear etc yet still can only just about make the figure per litre you're claiming.
i've asked these questions to you several times, why not have a go at explaining why you think you're making so much power?
to help you along in case you think your piggyback might be performing miracles, the guy who's going to map my m42 has an evo 2 m3 with an S14 which runs the new dastek UniQ on alpha-N with no AFM. he makes 180whp out of his far superior 2.3 S14 on throttle bodies. this is a good figure, but to me rules out any possibility of your great performance being due to the dastek/maf setup you're running.
thanks
tim
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
You've got red on you.
i can see how he got that number with one thing...some fine ass tuning.
E36 and E46 only!
I must appologise, I thought you were calling my engine/work a joke...
There is definitely something wrong with these S14 numbers you are giving me...What gear are you guys using on these dyno runs? In SA we use 3rd gear, I think you are using 4th with your S14 numbers...
I would love to toss the M42 for a 2.5lt S14, I am totally convinced in the saying "there's no replacement for displacement"
You would believe me if you had to drive my car that I have more power than a stock 328i. I have beaten friends with 328i's who know how to drive.
Steven Green from Rob Green motorsport was extremely impressed with my car when he dyno'ed it. He said he has never seen a M42 put out power like that before. He also said I was making 20whp more than stock 328i's on his dyno. I can give you guys a graph in a month or two, after I install the 6spd g/box.
E36 and E46 only!
Att Frost DBX
Here is that diagram for the AFM to MAF conversion, pretty straight forward.
Last edited by Gizmo330iT; 04-04-2006 at 02:29 PM.
Member
no worries, i meant no offence.
most guys will use 4th on the S14, fifths 1:1 on these. its quite interesting you mention the gear used, i'd have thought that most rolling road operators would use 4th on ours as its 1:1.
the 160whp for the S14 is actually pretty much pulled out of the air - this is just roughly what a standard 2.3 S14 does from experience, mb a bit more - should equate to about 200bhp. the later 215 models do more than this, circa 175/180 ish atw.
the displacement wouldn't really be why i'd ditch the m42 for an s14! its a much better package for loads of other reasons. in fact i'd really like an s14 2l screamer. we do have a few small things on the S14 though as I'm sure you're aware, not much of a comfort though!I would love to toss the M42 for a 2.5lt S14, I am totally convinced in the saying "there's no replacement for displacement"
why do you think that is (that you have more power than a 328i?)? i'm not that surprised you're fast on the track, you have a lighter car with a buzzy engine and less weight past the front wheels.You would believe me if you had to drive my car that I have more power than a stock 328i. I have beaten friends with 328i's who know how to drive
fair enough, still find it really surprising, i'm sure you can appreciate my scepticism, especially as M52s tend to put out really healthy figures on the r/r.Steven Green from Rob Green motorsport was extremely impressed with my car when he dyno'ed it. He said he has never seen a M42 put out power like that before. He also said I was making 20whp more than stock 328i's on his dyno.
that'd be good. be great to see the rundown and transmission losses too. i'd be interested to see what mine does with a bigger capacity than yours and tbs and standalone etc, though i must admit i have much more modest aims! unfortunately the first rolling road it will go on is an old bosch unit so will only get some rough figures, once i've got the mapping spot on etc i'll get some proper graphs.I can give you guys a graph in a month or two, after I install the 6spd g/box.
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
Member
btw just remembered, what the hell's wrong with the figures your guy's getting for 328is! they should make way more than 140hp odd at the wheels! thought the fella saing a 325i is about 160rwhp was about right, the m52s over here do a little more than that m50 figure. some people over here get about 200bhp at the flywheel out of those over here! is the SA M52 the same spec as euro?
and are you using the s50b32 box? does the bellhousing mate up ok? our 240s are the same as the m50 bellhousing aren't they? never really looked at it... will the shifter line up and what prop/diff you gonna use?
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
E36 and E46 only!
Same spec 328i as everywhere else. A stock 328i has 189bhp, minus around 18% transmission loss equals +-155whp. Take into account the 328i has much longer gearing...
As for the g/box, yes im getting the S50B32 box with shifter linkage, the bell housing bolts right up. The getrag box has a smaller 3bolt coupling than the 328i & M3 ZF box. I will get the M3 6spd propshaft too. This will link up to my 3,46:1 LS diff, I will just need to fit the 6bolt coupling from my spare M3 diff to my diff so the propshaft will bolt up.
Member
i guess a lot of the problem with all this is accuracy of rollers, but still 145 atw for a 328i on rollers that measured yours at 168atw just seems plain weird. uk 328i is listed at 192bhp, but its well known that they do well on the rollers.
here's some 328i r/r results i've lifted from a uk site of uk cars. these are some standard ones i pulled out. interesting how much the corrected figures vary!
176 atw on standard car
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Hort2074/G...ollingroad.jpg
165 atw
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/...aintcan216.jpg
170 atw
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...RRprintout.jpg
200bhp flywheel standard car
http://www.328sport.pwp.blueyonder.c...es/base328.jpg
if your guy is getting 140-145atw at sea level, thats pretty odd. bennyfizzle's figure seems about right for an m50 (160atw), an m52 should be a little more imo.
you can see why i find it hard to believe yours does more than 20whp more than a 328i! that would mean you're pushing like 220bhp+ at the flywheel or something suitably ridiculous!
Last edited by ts295; 04-04-2006 at 04:43 PM.
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
13psi and Rising
Ts295,
Why are you hating? Have you seen what this guys has done to his engine? My advice to you is read from the beginning of this thread. Why is it so hard for you to understand a high revving M42 can make so much horsepower? Here's an example for you. 3.5" hfm with software on a S50/52 yield an average gain of about 30rwhp. Remember he converted afm-maf, with proper tuning, I totally believe in his numbers. With head work, ITB, BTB, i would not be surprise he get 200rwhp? Keep up the great work GIZMO. Some of the people in this forum have inferiority complex. Dont worry about it, just keeping doning what your doing.
side note: look at the honda scene. ~230rwhp on a b18/B16 NA. and they are only bumping the dispalcement to 2.0-2.2
OBD1 ECU TUNER
Member
i'm not hating!!! and no inferiority complex. i wish you didn't drag this back up, i think gizmo and i have agreed to disagree on this one - it doesn't mean i don't appreciate his car and his efforts, and i'm sure he knows it.
i'm trying to have a decent technical discussion about it, but you're not making any decent attempt at explaining why it makes such good power, only asserting that i'm envious. please read through my other posts and try to answer some of the questions. that would be great.
and its not an acronym competition, whats a BTB? big throttle body? if so, can you explain how gizmo can have a BTB and ITBs at the same time? get some techinical knowledge, please.
if we're a little more technical about things, especially your MAF and unichip stuff, for a start the 328i has a 3" MAF, just like gizmo. that does not do anything to explain how gizmo gets 20rwhp more from 800cc and two cylinders less. and as i've shown a 328i should make 160-170rwhp on the rollers, not 140rwhp, which throws up all kinds of questions if gizmo's car makes 20rwhp more on the same rollers. a euro m3 which i've been using for comparison a lot throughout this discussion has a 3.5" MAF by the way. and did you not see that the evo2 s14 i was talking about ran alpha-n on the UniQ (the replacement for gizmo's unit) and makes 180rwhp with 2.3, ITBS and bigger valves etc than gizmo - so how the hell will gizmo make 200rwhp with ITBs (oh, and BTB of course)?
As a megasquirter and being quite familiar with M42s, unichips, MAF conversions and knowing motronic pretty well, i know what i'm on about with regards to tuning. and i just don't see how a MAF and unichip can explain gizmo's figures. remember for instance that the M44 uses a MAF and is 1.9, yet produces 140bhp at the flywheel, so thats say 60bhp less than gizmos with the main differences being only that it has 100cc less and a lower CR.
increasing capacity will not alter the bhp/litre significantly, neither will a MAF swap and a unichip. the compression ratio will help, but the s50b30 and s50b32 run quite high CRs to begin with, and this alone can't account for a 33% increase in power/litre. yet gizmo's figures suggest his car has rocketed from about 75bhp/litre to 100bhp/litre. it just doesn't figure.
please can we have a discussion without accusing me of jealousy etc. did you not read that i've a 2.1 m42 on ITBs (can show you pics if you like)? instead of just slagging me off, why can't you provide some decent technical info in an attempt to refute what I'm saying?
I think your defence of gizmo is very admirable, cute in fact. im really pissed that you've wasted my time writing this reply though. look, if you want to show me up, demonstrate how the car's capable of making the power rather than brown-nosing.
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
Member
let's all be friends! the forum is a place for discussion and enlightenment. We all love our cars so it's completely natural to get defensive about it, to be honest both gizmo ts295 have great points and I'm stoked to hear more! Continue on boys!
-Robby
13psi and Rising
Why would I be brown-nosing. I dont know the guy. I have no gain in this.
Does this answer your question. Every scientific experimention applied in real life will have a different outcome. Have you ever wonder why some m3 come out of the factory with more rwhp than others? why would that be? they all have the same specs. Answer that quetion please.
my advice to you why dont you take a m42 and replicate his setup if you cant get the same number his getting then throw the BS flag.
other than that lay off the starbuck and stay away from the keyboard.
E36 and E46 only!
Isn't there some HP calculator I can throw my engine specs into to see what kind of power it makes? I know for a fact my car is quicker than a 328i, let it be around a track or in a straight line. I haven't had the opportunity to run on the 1/4mile yet but im not into that kinda thing anyway, my poison is drift and track racing...
E36 and E46 only!
Many guys have PM'ed me for a break-down of what is done to my motor, here it is finally.
M44 block bored out to 86mm
Euro S50b30 pistons decked 3.8mm and pocketed
M44 conrods with custom small-end bushes
Stock M44 big-ends and main bearings
Fully balanced bottom-end
Lightweight flywheel
M47 (E46 320d) crank with 0.5mm machined nose so the pulleys fit
Stock M42 head, so far
AFM to 3" MAF conversion (E36 328i MAF)
80deg thermostat
Custom 6mm duraform spacer gasket for intake manifold (keeps intake mani ice cold)
Stock M42 header, so far
TB water line delete
Euro M3 injectors
Fan delete mod
Dastek unichip
CAI
11,6:1 compression
Current rev limiter @ 6750rpm
Future:
Euro M3 ITBs
Euro M3 solid lifters
34mm intake valves
Gasflowed head
Bigger cams (don't know how big yet)
Custom header (4-2-1 48mm runners)
Up rev limit to 7500rpm
Haha, the list to the other mods on my car is alot longer than this one...
Last edited by Gizmo330iT; 04-05-2006 at 04:38 PM.
Member
sure! why don't you have a go at answering some of mine too?Have you ever wonder why some m3 come out of the factory with more rwhp than others? why would that be? they all have the same specs. Answer that quetion please.
of course there are manufacturing tolerances, different rollers etc to bare in mind, but generally, as the examples of those 328i rolling road graphs i put up for you demonstrates, the figures are fairly close, and don't really explain away a difference as large as 20whp. the magnitude of gizmo's advantage over a 328i on the same rollers seems very large. notice that using your example of m3s, BMW picked the highest output engines to use for the euro s50b30 GT, which with different cams and ECU still only then made 10-15bhp at the flywheel more than the standard car.
i think its more than likely that you just got a really good figure on that day gizmo. i reckon the figures he told you for a 328i is pretty low too. it does seem extremely high though, and the bit that's most surprising to me is that it made way more than 328is which tend to put out really good power.
an engine HP calculator won't give your engine the figures you're after - this is the point pretty much i've been trying to make to you, that with your valve size and capacity, without anything like ITBs etc, the power you're making is well high.
mb if you consider other 2l 16v engines and their inlet valve sizes (the single most important factor i guess), vw engines for instance (32mm inl valves) make around 150bhp at the flywheel, though tuned to similar standard to yours can make 170-180bhp at the flywheel, or the peugeout mi16 1.9 16v engine, which sports much bigger inlet valves to ours make 160bhp out of the box iirc, can be got to towards 190bhp at the flywheel with cams and running higher rpm (7,500rpm) than our engines. vauxhall red top XE, same inlet valve size as ours, 2l 16v, circa 150bhp but can be got to 170-180bhp with similar mods to yours. i'm sure there's more examples to illustrate the point that your figure is high considering capacity and inlet valve size, especially when you consider you're running standard cams - one has to wonder how you're moving enough air to make that power without increasing rpm.
but i agree, let's jsut all be friends and i'll try to point the finger a bit less, promise! i apologise for any offence caused, thats not my intention! after all, i'll be over the moon if mine makes a more than 168whp, which is i guess what you'd expect with it having a bigger capacity, more advanced fuelling and ITBs.
tim
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
E36 and E46 only!
Just to give you guys an idea of how much a difference the AFM to MAF conversion gives you. When I still had my M40 1.8lt 8valve engine we did a before/after dyno run with the MAF conversion, the MAF gave me an extra 8Whp. This just goes to show how restrictive that barn-door in the AFM really is.
Member
Giz,
as per your MAF diagram there are only 4 wires but at the AFM harness i found 5 ports a bit confused. Thanx a lot and more power (HP) hahaha...
2002 C200 KOMPRESSOR
1995 318i - M42B21 on the making
1992 325i AC Schnitzer - SOLD in DXB
1990 525i - SOLD in DXB
1989 E300 - SOLD in DXB
1989 M6 - SOLD in DXB
Member
think all that's missing from giz's diag is that the AFM has two outputs, an airflow and a load output - so gry blk and gry yellow on the afm connector iirc.
i'm a bit confused by it though must admit, as a late-type siemens MAF takes a 12v in (its a hot film type iirc so the 12v does the heating), where the AFM just takes a 5vref - so my motronic afm connector doesn't have a red-white lead. mb its cos you have the carbon canister which mine doesn't and are grabbing the 12v from that.
also i'd have expected gry/whi (5vref) on the AFM to go to black (5vref for the MAF??), though thats off the top of my head, you may want to check it out.
hth
2.1 318is on ITBs and MS
Member
Damn nice setup you have there. Do you think it's possible to run pump gas in the states with the 11.6:1 compression ratio? I am looking to build a 2.9L M50 non-vanos stroker. Maybe you can help me with what needs to go in. I know that using the S50 crank will help. I can use the S50 conrods as well, but I am pretty sure that the M50 non-vanos has beefier conrods. I would also like to stay with the 84mm bore just in case i boost it later and the cylinder walls will be thicker in return. Should I stay with the stock headgasket and trust the compression ratio? Remind me later to calculate it with the setup I am looking at. Also, what do you think of solid lifters?
Rob - 2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster | 1986 Porsche 944 5.3L LM4
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks