Class action lawsuit over rear subframe failure?

[Dragon M]

Let me start this out by saying that I'm a big fan of BMW, I own 3 of their cars ('00 M Coupe, '00 M Roadster, and a '79 320/6) none were purchased new, but we all buy what we can afford. I lust after an M5, and have no doubt that when I can afford one, I will buy one and replace the coupe as a daily driver, I am seriously considering buying an E36 M3 or E46 M3 as a replacement for our Lexus IS300. Here's what I don't like; having the rear subframe fail on my wife's CPO'ed Roadster (owned for 2 years and ~6,000 miles), to also know that MANY people on this board are suffering from the same issue, to know that my Coupe WILL also fail at some point in the future, and know that BMWUSA really doesn't much care.

Let me say that I've talked to my dealer, and I've approached BMW with my concerns (really, OUR concerns considering how many cars are failing) and got some less than satisfactory responses. Here's a direct quote from an email from bmwusa.com regarding the rear subframe failure on the Wife's Roadster "Our research indicates this problem with the rear subframe was a result of an external influence, not a defect in the workmanship or materials. Therefore, this problem would not have been covered under warranty if the warranty were still applicable. Regrettably, we are unable to offer any additional assistance in this matter. I apologize if this answer falls short of your expectations." Falling short of my expectations is an understatment, but I thought this warranted a follow-up call to BMW. On my follow-up call I was told that BMW has "Investigated EVERY instance of rear subframe failure on the Z3's and EVERY instance has been caused by racing." I said: "No exceptions? Every time? Because you see, while this car has seen 5-10 Autocrosses in the time I've owned it you're telling me that was enough to damage the rear subframe THIS badly?" The response: "Every case has been due to racing."

So...EVERY case of rear subframe failure is due to racing, 5-10 Autocrosses MAY be enough to destroy the rear subframe on BMW's M-Class car. Would it not stand to reason that if 5-10 Autocrosses will do that much damage, what would say...50 or 60 thousand miles on the poorly maintained roads in Southern California do to the rear subframe of the car? Is it reasonable to expect that when I buy a car with an original purchase price of $45k+ that it would last 100,000 miles without major frame damage?

I realize that posting this here may not be the most popular decision, but this is where everyone comes when they have issues. This is where we all lament the damage to our cars, and the expense of repairing these cars that we love. This is where we all talk to Randy, who's developed a simple (not an easy install, but the concept is obvious when you look at it) yet elegant solution to the problem that so many have had with their cars, and so many have yet to have with other cars.

So after this long tirade, the question is...how many of you would be interested in a class-action lawsuit against BMW for this issue? I'm not interested in making money, I'm interested in getting a decent solution to a major problem that many of us are going to face with our cars. I've spoken with a highly recommended Lemon Law/Consumer Protection/Automobile Fraud attorney who's interested in the case and wants to know how many people this has affected, and how many would be interested in joining a suit. The items I'm most interested in would be someone who's having issues with a car that's still under original manufacturer warranty, not CPO warranty.

Thanks

Devin

[IslandS62]

Good luck Devin. I would be very interested in supporting you in this. If I can do anything to help you please let me know. I have two MCoupes, one off warranty and one on, but neither have had rear subframe issues to date. I know it may be only a matter of time though. Anything to get BMW NA to publicly recognize this problem will be valuable to all of us.

Are there any statistics of affected vehicles at this time? Does anyone really know how many cars have failed so far? A lot has been made of it, but are we talking a percentage of one percent? A few percent? 10%?

[MFaust]

Where do I sign?

[count_schemula]

It has not affected a large number of cars, although there is no real evidence that every car may not suffer from it.

It also seems like the threshold for a "recall" is fairly high. Many recalls are done "voluntarily." Recalls are ALWAYS economic decisions. Recalls only happen if the potential of damages lawsuits from the defect are high, or if the harm to reputation is high. Otherwise, they could care less.

I think the subframe failures pretty much fall under the BMW could care less category.

This matters in the context of a class action lawsuit because of the type of uphill battle it represents. Have a lot of subframes failed? No. Has anyone been harmed? No.

I'm all for a lawsuit that sole forced BMW to retrofit a solution, but, all things considered, it seems pretty unlikely to get and action from BMW.

The only people affected by the problem are the people who suffer the failure, and the people who try to sell a Z3 to someone who is aware of the problem.

I think the problem is even more widespread in the E36, but it looks like BMW will just say that the use exceeded the design parameters. Satisfactory answer? Nope.

What is sad is, they would spend more money defending against the lawsuit than to fix the problem. The strategy should be to bring the lawsuit and quickly rush to settle. But they'd prolly fight it, just to avoid a flood of other lawwuits.

Still, where do I sign?

[JeffBlue]

No problems yet on my 1999 MRoadster but wouldn't want to experience it. I can understand your frustration in dealing with BMWUSA. They should be held liable and make them fix the problem. I will keep checking on this forum for updates.

[SexualChocolate]

I'll sign.

Riaz

[chip4]

I don’t have the subframe issue (yet) other wise I would sign up for this in a heartbeat if I did have this issue I find it highly unlikely that BMW will do anything about it.

Cause and effect. I personally think with this issue BMW doesn’t care about their quality or “making it right” for them its all about profits –which they have already made, you bought the car dint you?. If your Class action suit yields little to no satisfactory solution -DO NOT subsidize BMW by buying their products –tell all your friends of your experience tell them like it is, they have obviously gotten away with it, doing this will surely affect any car buying decisions in the future affecting BMW business. If a company cares so little about you, why would care about them? It may or may not force BMW to rethink about the way they handle their quality issues.

[segue007]

I was at the beginning stages of this issue when I had the rear re-enforced. I saw the rust around the spot welds and the pulling away of the spot welds. It cost me over $700 and I am not sure if that will keep the rear together. I may have to get Randy's kit if this does not work........and I have never tracked this car, so BMWNA statement that this happens to cars that have been tracked is a bunch of s#@!.

Please, where do I sign?

[segue007]

I don’t have the subframe issue (yet) other wise I would sign up for this in a heartbeat if I did have this issue I find it highly unlikely that BMW will do anything about it.

Cause and effect. I personally think with this issue BMW doesn’t care about their quality or “making it right” for them its all about profits –which they have already made, you bought the car dint you? If your Class action suit yields little to no satisfactory solution -DO NOT subsidize BMW by buying their products –tell all your friends of your experience tell them like it is, they have obviously gotten away with it –then doing this will surely affect any car buying decisions in the future affecting BMW business. If a company cares so little about you, why would care about them? It may or may not force BMW to rethink about the way they handle their quality issues.

You will see this issue with your car sooner or later. You may have it now and just don't see it. The spot welds in mind where just beginning to pull away and I could see a little rust around them. Check your trunk and if you can feel any indentation over any of the spot welds then you are at the beginning stages of this issue. It will just be a matter of time from that point on. We all will see this issue because it is a poor design.

[zeromagnus]

so...we need someone to die due to rear subframe failure...anyone willing to take one for the team?

Though I'll join and give any support I can, even if it is just being another name on a sheet of paper, I honestly don't believe BMWNA will do anything about this issue.

Which is why I have Randy's fix and I'm going to go through with the reinforcement and I-beam install regardless of where this goes.
Even if we are able to receive a positive response eventually, my plan to enter the realm of FI relatively soon greatly encourages me to beef up one of the major known weak points of our car.

I think it would be interesting if we informed more individuals of this engineering flaw.
Afterall, it cannot be libel if we are just stating the facts, and letting the individual make up his/her own mind, can it?

The more negative attention you can bring to the issue, the more cooperative BMW will be and open to settling the matter rather quickly.
Afterall, who wants to buy a nice, pretty M5, and 60k miles later the rear subframe fails. Most bimmer owners just want to buy the car and not have any issues whatsoever.

And I think this issue (and the fact that BMWNA is not willing to fix a known problem) will interest potential owners,
and perhaps lead them to a car/manufacturer that doesn't have such an engineering defect/oversight known to the general public.



The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society.
Edward Bernays

[JBgotM]

my rear end is cracked, I'll sign

I had Randy look at my car with about 64k on the clock and the mount has a crack split 3 ways in the mount. I haven't pulled the trunk to check for pulled spot welds, but I am speculating there are a few of those as well.

The best option ofr an outcome to me would be is BMW commissioned (paid) Randy to fix all subframes that cracked. Wouldn't that be awesome? but that's my pipe dream for this morning.

[clintjg]

Interesting. BMW here in NoVA actually 'fixed' a board members car well outside the warranty range when he sighted saftey concerns. I think the car had well over 70k/mi at the time.

[///MDex]

Where do I sign?

.

FWIW, I read in Roundel this past weekend where BMW has covered floor pan / diff carrier / subframe repairs under warranty in previous models. I don’t have it in front of me now, but can confirm the text later tonight.

[Adrian G.]

Signed.

[Glenn95]

Ok, so we all want to sign up. What's the next step? Anyone?

[namike]

I would think the first thing would be to get as many as people as possible to check for the problem. Obviously to do this properly the trunk will need to be disassembled, and the car will need to be put up in the air to check the undercarriage of the vehicle.

All details about the vehicle, including DETAILED pictures, would need to be documented somewhere (like on the Count's website).

I mean, I checked out the Count's site just this week, there was only a HANDFUL of cases on there. Obviously that is not going to cut it.

In short, we would need the people to come forward, do the leg work, and put in some effort towards the cause.

Just my $.02

EDIT: Of course I'm in

Mike

[QikSilver]

An attorney, that's what we need next.

[namike]

An attorney, that's what we need next.

No, we need the DOCUMENTATION to present to the lawyer first, then we can get the attorney involved.

Edit: Sorry, did not mean to come off so "ass-holeish"

[CDCJON551]

Where do I sign?

totally agree. BMW should have a recall and fix this problem

[NickC]

That "only due to racing" quote or whatever is complete BS, just like everyone on here knows already.
I sold my last ///M roadster to Riley and he experienced the subframe cracking itself only a few weeks after buying my car. There was absolutely NO racing history whatsoever in my car's past. I never auto-x'd, never road raced, and only went to the dragstrip a few times with about 10 or so total launches, and none of those had clutch dumps over 3500rpm's.
That racing excuse just pisses me off to no end and it's such a damned cop out. GRRRRRRRRRRRR.

[///MDex]

I think the responsibility should be on BMW, not us.

If a recall is issued, we would bring our cars into the dealership, and put up on their lift, on their time, at their cost. Not my time and money to prove there is a problem.

[IslandS62]

Through the club I have a straight communication line to Mike Miller and Mark Calabrese of Roundel. I'll try and communicate to them that we need the issue brought out in the open more. Maybe some more visible publicity might make BMWmore responsive. Mike Miller also does the tech pages for Bimmer.

Anyone want to write up the info to send to them? I have no experience with actual breakage.

[namike]

I think the responsibility should be on BMW, not us.

If a recall is issued, we would bring our cars into the dealership, and put up on their lift, on their time, at their cost. Not my time and money to prove there is a problem.

I agree with you 100% on IF a recall is issued. As of right now, we have nothing. We need to assemble our "case" ourselves, unforunetely to bring this issue further into the spotlight.

--Mike

[6i9]

I would like to see BMW take action as much as the next guy.

But I'm thinking it'll only be resolved, if at all, on a case by case basis by BWMNA. Such is the experience of a few Coupe owners on roadfly/other boards.

[JBgotM]

Through the club I have a straight communication line to Mike Miller and Mark Calabrese of Roundel. I'll try and communicate to them that we need the issue brought out in the open more. Maybe some more visible publicity might make BMWmore responsive. Mike Miller also does the tech pages for Bimmer.

Anyone want to write up the info to send to them? I have no experience with actual breakage.

IIRC, Randy did a writeup for either Bimmer or Roundel on his fix and they published or were giong to publish it.

There is no doubt, Randy has the best knowledge of the issue, but I won't volunteer him for a write-up. I think most of the info needed for a decent writeup is on Count's website.