The Mechtech kit is coming off. I have had enough.

[Brad D.]

After disappointing dyno results, and finding out that my car is running so lean that it is dangerous to drive, I am pulling the MechTech kit off my car in favor of AA stage 3.

I have had enough of this B.S. to last a lifetime. It is RIDICULOUS to think that this place is still in business. Several conclusions can be drawn from this.

1) Turbocharger/piping/intercooler is too small. Look how boost falls WAY off above 5k.

2) Mechtech is nuts for not having an A/F measurement on their dyno. How the hell can they even do this?

3) Car is DANGEROUSLY lean under boost.

4) Mechtech's dyno numbers are TOTALLY false. They told me I made 323 horsepower on 91 octane at 10psi. I made 234 horsepower on this Mustang dyno, and 300 lb/ft of torque at 10psi WITH RACE GAS!!

5) Mechtech sucks. Stay as far away from it as you can. I have charged back my entire purchase to my credit card as of this morning. I am asking for every bit of my money back and for the kit to be taken off the car.

Check this out.



Look at my A/F ratio!! My god the car is going to blow up.

[///MCubed]

Brad,

Damn, you are lucky your car has not blown up at this point. 15:1 A/F mixture . Sorry to hear about your headaches with the kit, I still believe it could have worked with the proper knowledge behind it, but that was not your case.

As for the differences between dyno's, I am glad to see someone else has seen the difference in the Mustang dyno numbers when compared to others, that is why I claim which dyno any numbers I quote were achieved on to make sure things are clear; what dyno does Mechtech use?

Good luck on your new endeavor, I am sure you wont be disappointed.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by ///MCubed
Brad,

Damn, you are lucky your car has not blown up at this point. 15:1 A/F mixture . Sorry to hear about your headaches with the kit, I still believe it could have worked with the proper knowledge behind it, but that was not your case.

As for the differences between dyno's, I am glad to see someone else has seen the difference in the Mustang dyno numbers when compared to others, that is why I claim which dyno any numbers I quote were achieved on to make sure things are clear; what dyno does Mechtech use?

Good luck on your new endeavor, I am sure you wont be disappointed.

I agree Cubed...The guy at the duno shop didn't want me to drive the car off the lot. He suggested I trailer the car home. I honestly believe it can work at 5-6psi, but anything higher the turbo and piping are WAY too restrictive.

Mechtech uses a Dynojet dyno. There numbers were all over the place...it was sad.

The most F'ed up part is hearing Jim MechFarland talking to Karl at AA over the phone trying to tune the car and telling Karl that the "Fuel is fine...we need to take out more timing."

Holy christ...there is so much timing being pulled out now and so much lack of fuel I can only imagine why the car made 234 horsepower.

[///MCubed]

Originally posted by Brad D.


The most F'ed up part is hearing Jim MechFarland talking to Karl at AA over the phone trying to tune the car and telling Karl that the "Fuel is fine...we need to take out more timing."

: : : :

[paul e]

>>15:1 A/F mixture<<

Am I viewing this plot incorrectly? I dont seen any 15:1 except at 1400 rpms! The meat of the curve as at 13.8:1 to 14:1. Which I agree, is pretty dangerous, and is about 2 points too lean. Was Jim asked what on earth he is using to judge that 'fueling is fine', especially since, as Brad says, they didnt have a dynojet a/f hookup...pretty scary...Brad, how does this credit card charge back work...Im assuming theyve already paid off to MechTech..Did this go into some kind of official 'dispute', like when you receive a recent credit card bill for something you didnt receive? Is Mechtech going to agree to give you a full refund? If they claim to the credit card company that they fulfilled their obligations and are not authorizing the 'return of goods, how are you going to proceed? Court? Not being a lawyer, it sounds like you have a case, but, it may take some doing. good luck, and keep us apprised.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by paul e
>>15:1 A/F mixture<<

Am I viewing this plot incorrectly? I dont seen any 15:1 except at 1400 rpms! The meat of the curve as at 13.8:1 to 14:1. Which I agree, is pretty dangerous, and is about 2 points too lean. Was Jim asked what on earth he is using to judge that 'fueling is fine', especially since, as Brad says, they didnt have a dynojet a/f hookup...pretty scary...Brad, how does this credit card charge back work...Im assuming theyve already paid off to MechTech..Did this go into some kind of official 'dispute', like when you receive a recent credit card bill for something you didnt receive? Is Mechtech going to agree to give you a full refund? If they claim to the credit card company that they fulfilled their obligations and are not authorizing the 'return of goods, how are you going to proceed? Court? Not being a lawyer, it sounds like you have a case, but, it may take some doing. good luck, and keep us apprised.

You are reading the dyno plut correctly...however forced induction cars are supposed to be in the 11-12 range ideally. More rich than lean...If you look at my curve I am at 13.8 the whole time...I haven't a clue as to how Jim thought the fuel was fine since he can't do air/fuel on his dyno. He SEVERAL times told me the car was running rich and he asked Karl to take fuel out.

I have already charged back to them once...so there is already a history behind this...so it makes it a lot easier. I felt sorry for him last time and reversed the dispute...but this time he can either pay to have my car shipped to Florida to AA to be properly tuned, or he can take his stuff off.

MechTech will immediately lose $8000.00 from their merchant account with Discover. Then it is MechTech's burden of proof to say that my car is running properly. I have the signed testimony of a professional tuner (or 2 or 3 of them) saying that my car isn't and never has been tuned properly, and in fact is in danger of being blown.

I don't think it will have to get as far as court. I am willing to give them all their parts back and I get my 8000.00 back.

If I have to I can get letters from 4 other people who have blown their engines from detonation with MechTech.

[luckybmw]

power to you brad. i just hope i can get my money back from zex.

[Cheuk in Seoul]

Yeah,

It is a little lean. I usually shoot for 12:1 on a turbo engine.
So what does 234 hp convert to on a dynojet? You are seriously down on power. I made 265 hp on a dynojet at 7 psi (MechTech) on 89 octane fuel and a 2.8 L M52 engine.

The flow capabilties of the Aerodyne does seem small but it does push 7 psi upto redline in your M3.... My feeling is that the reason your boost drops off is because of the aerodyne control mechanism and not because of the turbo. It seems to "peak" at initial onset before dropping down to the "set" boost level. I noticed this pattern regardless of where I have the boost set at.. 5 psi, 7 psi... on testing had it once to 10 psi.

Lucky, try to call the guys at ZEX and just let them know of your situation. No reason for them not to buy back your stuff. Not your fault that the system did not work on your car. I know Matt at ZEX seems to be a reasonable guy.

[BMWguy206]

Cheuk-

Is that 89 octane rated as in AKI or RON? On my E46 M3 the gas door says to fill up with 91 octane AKI and on top of that it said 95-98 RON.

Most people are using the 1.21 conversion factor if the vehicle was used on a dynojet and others use a 1.31 conversion factor if used on a mustang dyno. These factors are used for E36 coupe/sedans/convertible. It is most likely different on the E36 Z3 roadsters/coupes.

[guc32]

Wow that sucks Brad. Im sorry to see that. Sorry i couldnt call you too. Im goin to see what happens to mine when i take it on friday. Hope fully its good.

[Brekyrself]

I know you have had a lot of problems with the Turbo setup, but with your dyno run that you just posted. That was with race gas?

The day before I dynoed my car, I put 1/4 tank of 100 octane "race gas" in and guess what, it sucked! I guess the gas was sitting in the tanks to long because no one buys it, and it degrades over time. On my plot you can see the car cutting power at 3k and than again at 4k.

Maybe you should consider getting it dynoed again with plain normal pump gas. With the A/F ratio, how did they read that? Sniffer in the tailpipe or o2 sensor. I have read that the tailpipe sniffer is no where near accurate because the cats affect the ratio quite a bit.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by Cheuk in Seoul
Yeah,

It is a little lean. I usually shoot for 12:1 on a turbo engine.
So what does 234 hp convert to on a dynojet? You are seriously down on power. I made 265 hp on a dynojet at 7 psi (MechTech) on 89 octane fuel and a 2.8 L M52 engine.

The flow capabilties of the Aerodyne does seem small but it does push 7 psi upto redline in your M3.... My feeling is that the reason your boost drops off is because of the aerodyne control mechanism and not because of the turbo. It seems to "peak" at initial onset before dropping down to the "set" boost level. I noticed this pattern regardless of where I have the boost set at.. 5 psi, 7 psi... on testing had it once to 10 psi.

Lucky, try to call the guys at ZEX and just let them know of your situation. No reason for them not to buy back your stuff. Not your fault that the system did not work on your car. I know Matt at ZEX seems to be a reasonable guy.

265hp on a Dynojet is about 240hp on a Mustang...so that's pretty bad too.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by Brekyrself
I know you have had a lot of problems with the Turbo setup, but with your dyno run that you just posted. That was with race gas?

The day before I dynoed my car, I put 1/4 tank of 100 octane "race gas" in and guess what, it sucked! I guess the gas was sitting in the tanks to long because no one buys it, and it degrades over time. On my plot you can see the car cutting power at 3k and than again at 4k.

Maybe you should consider getting it dynoed again with plain normal pump gas. With the A/F ratio, how did they read that? Sniffer in the tailpipe or o2 sensor. I have read that the tailpipe sniffer is no where near accurate because the cats affect the ratio quite a bit.

This isn't pump race gas. It's out of a barrel.


Also the o2 was read with a wideband O2 sensor.

It's obvious the car isn't getting the fuel it needs to make power.

[M3RACER]

How do you set your boost? It seems that you have boost set some where between 7.5-7 and the rise upto 9 is just a spike. Spikes of 1 psi are common with the aerodyne unit, it might be that you have friction in the vanes.

[stimpee]

Originally posted by Brekyrself

Maybe you should consider getting it dynoed again with plain normal pump gas. With the A/F ratio, how did they read that? Sniffer in the tailpipe or o2 sensor. I have read that the tailpipe sniffer is no where near accurate because the cats affect the ratio quite a bit.

While the location of the WBO2 sensor is critical in part throttle conditions and around stoich, where the cat and exhaust reversion can have significant effects, the location of the sniffer pre/post cat at larger throttle openings and any AFR outside of 14.7:1 will have little or no effect.

The cat is only effective at or very near stoich, it does nearly nothing at lower AFR...

Steve

[Greg]

Brad,
How much was this Mechtech kit, and are they going to give you your money back?

G

[jcarp]

Stimpee is absolutely correct on the tail pipe O2 sensor, unless the cats are not completely hot, then the tailpipe sensor will read much leaner than a wideband O2 installed pre-cat. I've seen this myself with O2 sensors installed in both exhaust pipes precats and one in the tail pipe. When everything is working and up to temp they all read virtually identical.

I've seen this happen on two other FI cars in the past month, the A/F curves were too lean on the first passes until the car and cats were at the proper temp. This can happen easily if the car has been sitting and it goes on the dyno when only the water temp is up. You may or may not be running lean depending how the measurements were conducted.

Did they hook up a pressure gauge to measure back pressure? You’re A/F curve would suggest that may be a much bigger reason for not making the power you expected in the upper rpm range rather than not getting enough fuel – it could also contribute to the ‘lean’ condition. If your cats/mufflers are creating several pounds of back pressure then your car can’t take in all the air your turbo is trying to push through.

It’s obvious I’m not an engineer like Nick or Shawn, but if the shop just hands you a piece of paper with a dyno graph on it without exploring potential reasons the numbers don’t meet expectations you can’t evaluate what is truly the problem.

Lastly, IMHO I don’t think you really know what the A/F is going to be until the car has run a few drive cycles. Again 9 times out 10 it seems the FI cars that I’ve watched run on the dyno that were considered lean initially dropped down to the desired level on a later run (some were dyno’d just a week later, some were several months) – and these cars had different tuner’s software.

Good luck Brad, and when you install your next system just make sure you are getting all the data you need to evaluate its performance.

[Scho]

Good luck Brad. That really sucks. I hope you get things resolved! Keep us posted!

[NickG]

Brad, I don't know exactly what setup you have, but I'm assuming it's not the basic Mechtech kit. From what I've heard/read, that system works just fine as a basic kit running 5psi. Considering they were able to get CARB approval for it means that something was running right with the kit.

Of course, like any true gearhead, I can understand where you would want more power than what a measly 5psi can deliver But it would appear that the kit you started with just wasn't designed to go where you wanted it.

May I suggest the following: detune the car back to what the basic kit was designed for (5psi). Put the factory programming in, the factory injectors, etc., just like what Mechtech intended. Then see how the car runs. If the car then performs at the level it was designed to, then you have a sound base to make modifications.

First thing I'd do is build a bigger, more efficient (flow-wise) intercooler assembly and intake pipes. The more efficient the intake system is, the easier job the turbo will have at boosting and the lower the intake temps will be. It's a win-win situation. All the time, I'd stay at 5psi.

Then get custom software that will eliminate the RRFPR and use larger injectors. This should gain a bit more consistency in the power delivery as well as make the AFRs safer. A slight power boost would also be expected.

Now you'd have a system with a solid base to start turning up the boost. I'd *guess* that you could run a solid 7psi with that turbo. Any more and it would probably need a bigger unit.

Good luck.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by NickG
Brad, I don't know exactly what setup you have, but I'm assuming it's not the basic Mechtech kit. From what I've heard/read, that system works just fine as a basic kit running 5psi. Considering they were able to get CARB approval for it means that something was running right with the kit.

Of course, like any true gearhead, I can understand where you would want more power than what a measly 5psi can deliver But it would appear that the kit you started with just wasn't designed to go where you wanted it.

May I suggest the following: detune the car back to what the basic kit was designed for (5psi). Put the factory programming in, the factory injectors, etc., just like what Mechtech intended. Then see how the car runs. If the car then performs at the level it was designed to, then you have a sound base to make modifications.

First thing I'd do is build a bigger, more efficient (flow-wise) intercooler assembly and intake pipes. The more efficient the intake system is, the easier job the turbo will have at boosting and the lower the intake temps will be. It's a win-win situation. All the time, I'd stay at 5psi.

Then get custom software that will eliminate the RRFPR and use larger injectors. This should gain a bit more consistency in the power delivery as well as make the AFRs safer. A slight power boost would also be expected.

Now you'd have a system with a solid base to start turning up the boost. I'd *guess* that you could run a solid 7psi with that turbo. Any more and it would probably need a bigger unit.

Good luck.

Nick-

Who told you I have a RRFPR? My kit is ALL Active Autowerke software. I have 35lb injectors and AA Software for Timing and Fuel maps.


All your advice makes perfect sense...and I would agree, except I paid $2000 more for 9psi and a level 2 kit, and he can't deliver it.

I wouldn't buy the kit for 5psi...also he promises 6psi on the factory kit.

BTW the turbo is shimmed for 9psi and I bleed off 1-2 psi more.

[NickG]

Originally posted by Brad D.


Nick-

Who told you I have a RRFPR? My kit is ALL Active Autowerke software. I have 35lb injectors and AA Software for Timing and Fuel maps.

I mentioned the RRFPR because that's how the Mechtech kit is setup in its basic, stage1 form (and how it got CARB approval). Remember, I suggested to back-track all the way to the basic setup and work your way up. That meant reinstalling the RRFPR and seeing how the system works with it.

[M3TurboCa]

Brad I'm sorry to hear your car is till not running properly and hope that you get it sorted out fast and properly.

That does not make any sense how can a company be in the Forced Induced business and not have a A/F but have a dyno that does not make any sense to me. Both go hand in hand.

If I remember you posted your dyno from them before showing your hp and torque at the wheels. Where you there when they did this or they gave you a copy and said this was your car.

I wonder what would be Jim F explaination did he switch the graphs and gave you a bogus dyno graph ? If that was the case that is low and fraudlent.

No wonder AA cant tune the chip when Jim telling them the fuel is right ? How did he arrive at this conclusion ?

If you were to keep the kit maybe you should send the graph to Karl so he then can try to correct the a/f problem.

Maybe as Nick and other have said the kit is not designed to run more than the 5-7 psi of boost.

The only thing saving you from blowing up your motor is the water injection and the race gas helping to prevent detonantion as the a/f is way too lean for a turbo car.

Even with 100% race gas 12-7 - 13.0 is perfect if the timing is on. But for the street and with no stand alone system the 13.8 is definately too lean.

[mefunny]

that sucks ass i hope you get your money back. You still have your zex kit if you do that sucks 2 bad thing on your bimmer. lol i like your new sig!

[Cheuk in Seoul]

Brad,

I understand that my car would only make 240 on a Mustang dyno... eddy current dynos eat more power... anyways mine is a 2.8 on low octane fuel making the same as your M3 on higher grade. Yours should be making around 40 -50 more hp.

You could try as previously suggested to run less boost and the RRFPR. I tried a whole bunch of things to make mine run better.. larger injectors... additional piggybacks... blah blah blah... Anyways what I am using now is stock injectors, MechTech / Vortec FMU, Aquamist water injection and Split Sec ARC1-002 (raises injector duty cycle dependant on boost sensed on a built in MAP sensor). I now only have to set the CEL every week or so.

You could always go with a stand alone. I am convinced that it is the only way to use more boost on a MAF car. Or a lot of time on a dyno with a wide band and a ECU reprogrammer and a real programming artist.

Also about the O2 sensor... the MechTech manifold has an extra bung for another O2 sensor... tap off of that with the wideband.

Jon,
It is 89 AKI or 94 RON.... It's the best that is available here in Korea.... that's part of my misfire problems at higher boost levels.

[Brad D.]

Originally posted by NickG


I mentioned the RRFPR because that's how the Mechtech kit is setup in its basic, stage1 form (and how it got CARB approval). Remember, I suggested to back-track all the way to the basic setup and work your way up. That meant reinstalling the RRFPR and seeing how the system works with it.

Dude there is no RRFPR to install. Period.