E36 Speaker Solution? YES! There is one!

[Benny Z]

I searched high and low for a 3-way component set that would fit the OEM speaker locations in my 325i without modification. As I'm sure you have found from searching older threads...like all n00bs, of course, do ( )...you have learned that the sizing is not standard and not readily available in the mainstream car audio world. You have also learned that MB Quart made a 3-way set that fit well in the car, but it is discontinued. So then you find all teh threads (about 2-3 per week?) where people ask what speakers fit, and you see that everyone tells everyone that there is not a direct replacement and you are SOL. Ah, the dilema.

Then you learn that you should just use a 2-way component set and disconnect the OEM midrange. But this creates a new problem, especially for us sedan owners, in that the OEM kick location in the E36 aims the speaker into the foot well under the dash. In the sedan, the speaker isn't even visible unless you duck down to see it. There's no way the important midrange frequencies are going to make it to your ears unobstructed.

So what's a guy to do??? Custom kick panels! Of course! Because fiberglassing is "sooo easy" and everyone can just miraculously get professional results on their first attempt. I dunno about you, but there's no chance in hell I would be able to create anything remotely asthetically appealing on a whim. I'm not about to junk up my fine german automobile ( ) with some half-assed kicks. ...and on top of it, lose my dead pedal.

So, crap. It's a lose/lose situation. Might as well just get a 2-way and live with the poor imaging.

BUT WAIT!!! THERE'S MORE!!!

Introducing, the forgotten child. This component set is the DLS Ultimate Pro series 5.25" component system with a 2.5" soft textile midrange and 1.1" soft textile tweeter. The speakers fit like a glove - as if DLS designed these speakers around our car. There is also a 6.5" version available for those of you willing to tackle cutting a larger hole or custom-mounting via an MDF baffle. The magnet on the woofer is a neodymium magnet, which is small in physical size, but large on punch. The QTS of the 6.5" driver is .76, I believe. Check www.dls.se for all the details.

I do not work for DLS. I do not work in the audio industry. I'm just a consumer and a BMW enthusiast, so I thought I'd pass along my finding.

I'm sure these would look even better in a black interior car, but they aren't an eyesore to me. For $350 shipped, I couldn't be happier. These things sound amazing. I set the midrange and tweeter to the "low" jumper on the crossovers and also changed the phase of the tweeters. I saw this recommended in a review I had read before purchasing and agree that it sounds more natural with the tweeter reverse phase. Accoustic instruments sound like they are being played live on my dash...the realistic sound is incredible for this price range. Electronic music sounds better than I have ever heard it, and it's what I usually cruise to. I'm hearing details in the midrange that get lost with the 2-way Infinity Kappa set we have in my wife's car. Green Day's "American Idiot" CD sounds great. I have no doubt that I will be completely satisfied with these speakers.

- original pics used to be here, but are long gone (sorry!) -


It should also be noted that this midrange driver and tweeter are available seperately, should anyone be looking for components to comprise a custom active system.

I hope this helps someone some day.

[Sephiroth619]

You have excellent writing skills.

[96INFMSM3]

You have excellent writing skills.

Anyone on this board with above a 6th grade literacy level sounds like a genius. In over 50% of the posts you have to try and decipher what the person is talking about because the grammar and spelling is so bad. Thanks to the original poster for the info.
I have a few questions:
1. Did you retain the stock headunit?
2. What brand and model amp did you use?
Thanks again,
Kyle

[eric77]

Anyone on this board with above a 6th grade literacy level sounds like a genius. In over 50% of the posts you have to try and decipher what the person is talking about because the grammar and spelling is so bad. Thanks to the original poster for the info.
I have a few questions:
1. Did you retain the stock headunit?
2. What brand and model amp did you use?
Thanks again,
Kyle

he has a thread with more info on his system and install here http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354592

Nice write up Benny. I am still somewhat skeptical about the imaging nightmare of the kicks. hehe. I guess I'll find out for myself sooner or later though. lol.

[Benny Z]

Anyone on this board with above a 6th grade literacy level sounds like a genius. In over 50% of the posts you have to try and decipher what the person is talking about because the grammar and spelling is so bad. Thanks to the original poster for the info.
I have a few questions:
1. Did you retain the stock headunit?
2. What brand and model amp did you use?
Thanks again,
Kyle

Eric answered your questions with a link to my log thread, but I'll answer the question here.

1. - No. I am using an Alpine deck...an older (but not "old school") CDA-9805 with an XM receiver attached and tucked behind the glove box. You could definately use the OEM head unit, though. Just buy an amp that has speaker-level inputs.

2. - I am using a Precision Power (PPI) amp, model PCX-4125. This amp is rated conservatively at 125w per channel at a 4 ohm load and a true 12.5 volts. I believe it is making more like 145ish watts per channel according to reviews I have read. I'll be using the two rear channels bridged into a 4 ohm load for a rated 500w to a single 12" sub in a sealed enclosure. Any amp should be able to power these speakers. They are rated at 120w RMS and 180w peak, so be sure to match the amp appropriately.

[Bufalo]

....and also changed the phase of the tweeters. I saw this recommended in a review I had read before purchasing and agree that it sounds more natural with the tweeter reverse phase.

This is something I've always done when installing tweeters. It makes them more difficult to locate, and often gives the illusion of a wider soundstage. With the tweeters so relatively close to the listener in the E36 doors, it helps a lot, especially since mounting them on the dash wouldn't put them much further away...

[Sparkybmw420]

hmm why not just let the originals bump

[morganbressler]

Thank you very much for your advice! Sounds like a nice system. My only con is the other then stock look, but judging by the setup, it can easily be changed with some spray paint on those speaker grills! Nice job.

[Gray Bishop]

my installer has had those DLS components in the display case for a while now, I just didn't want to spend $500+ which is what he was asking

we really need to all do some searches on the web, there's 3-series systems out there very few of us have seen and posted here

I've been reading about people doing HLCD's under the dash as well as 10's on the rear deck, so a definitive thread dedicated to various installs would be really helpful.........

a while back I posted Earl Zausmer's info on his 5-series competition vehicle, I think www.milbert.com has all the info as they just acquired the car. I still think his system has key things we should all consider for good sound in our own cars

[Gray Bishop]

one last thing, I read somewhere in this forum some comments people made on the nokia speakers being the worst and how poor the quality was, I just want to say to you guys......................you've obviously never endured an 80's General Motors or Honda factory audio system..............
nothing worse than a few bad seasons causing your factory Honda paper cone coaxials to crack or having to get an adapter to make a component set fit in that GM 4x6 coaxial spot on the dash

[Benny Z]

one last thing, I read somewhere in this forum some comments people made on the nokia speakers being the worst and how poor the quality was, I just want to say to you guys......................you've obviously never endured an 80's General Motors or Honda factory audio system..............
nothing worse than a few bad seasons causing your factory Honda paper cone coaxials to crack or having to get an adapter to make a component set fit in that GM 4x6 coaxial spot on the dash

lol! i know exactly what you mean.

ben
- previous owner of 7 different hondas/acuras

[DarksideE36]

Hey Benny, thanks for the link from Sound Domain, I wasn't aware that you were a member here! Hahah, good times. I have a couple questions though;

Can you elaborate on how I can go about changing the phase of my tweeters? Also how where can you get the DLS components for $350? Thanks.

-Paul

[Benny Z]

Glad to see you made it.

I purchased them through a reference that I got on Sound Domain. The guy's name is Adam and you can reach him at 715-536-1546. I believe the name of his company is Club XtoC. He had them drop shipped to me directly from DLS America in Miami. UPDATE - I don't think this guy is in business any longer. Sorry. I believe ED now carries the line?

To change the phase, simply reverse the positive and negative wires at the crossover for the tweeter.

The longer I play these, the better they seem to sound. I haven't timed the break-in period, but I'm sure I'm getting close to the 15-20 hour period that was recommended.

[xDMx]

I struggling on where to purchase these from, mostly because I can't seem to find anywhere...? Are these the same as the reference series? (those are the only ones I can find)

[Benny Z]

I struggling on where to purchase these from, mostly because I can't seem to find anywhere...? Are these the same as the reference series? (those are the only ones I can find)

I purchased them through a reference that I got on Sound Domain. The guy's name is Adam and you can reach him at 715-536-1546. I believe the name of his company is Club XtoC. He had them drop shipped to me directly from DLS America in Miami.

and no, they are not the same as the reference series. the reference series is the step below the ultimate series. ...but there is also an "ultimate reference" model within the ultimate series...it's the step up from these. ...but the qts of the woofer on that set is lower...

[xDMx]

Thanks!

[STEVE36]

I just picked up and had installed an Alpine CDA-9855 yesterday for 477 with tax, not too bad. I hope to get these speakers soon. Hopefully that price still stands.

How much did your amp cost? I'm trying to decide on a medium-high quality amp but I am not very knowledgeable about car audio.

"I set the midrange and tweeter to the "low" jumper on the crossovers and also changed the phase of the tweeters."

What does this do?

Thanks,
Steve

EDIT: Also, is this the "UP35" package listed on DLS' web site? How is the bass response? I'll eventually get around to getting 1 or 2 12 inch subs but for the time being I will just be sticking to the speakers.

[xDMx]

I just picked up and had installed an Alpine CDA-9855 yesterday for 477 with tax, not too bad. I hope to get these speakers soon. Hopefully that price still stands.

How much did your amp cost? I'm trying to decide on a medium-high quality amp but I am not very knowledgeable about car audio.

"I set the midrange and tweeter to the "low" jumper on the crossovers and also changed the phase of the tweeters."

What does this do?

Thanks,
Steve

EDIT: Also, is this the "UP35" package listed on DLS' web site? How is the bass response? I'll eventually get around to getting 1 or 2 12 inch subs but for the time being I will just be sticking to the speakers.

Where did you purchase these from?

[Zephor]

You mentioned in another thread that sometimes people just take out the rear speakers to make a better sound? How does that work? I just bought a E36 and I noticed the rear speakers are not producing sound. I do have a 15" subwoofer in the trunk and the 3 tweeters in the front work too. I'm having a monster of a time figuring out what exactly happened do it. Any idea?

[Sephiroth619]

You mentioned in another thread that sometimes people just take out the rear speakers to make a better sound? How does that work? I just bought a E36 and I noticed the rear speakers are not producing sound. I do have a 15" subwoofer in the trunk and the 3 tweeters in the front work too. I'm having a monster of a time figuring out what exactly happened do it. Any idea?

Make a better sound?

Many people take the rear speakers out so that bass can get into the cabin of a 4dr. 4 doors are known to be tightly sealed.

[10isPro]

So many misconceptions in this thread I have no idea where to start.

1st of all the E36 Kick panels work very well for staging and imaging. a Speaker such as Dynaudio or Morel (many others as well) which have good off axis response can produce stellar staging and imaging with eye level stage height.
I would NEVER use the stock door location in any BMW, the pathlengths are not even close to being usable or ideal by any means. Tonality is one thing and can be achieved easily by picking the right speakers and making a few adjustments. But no way in hell using all the stock locations in an E36 will work well technically and tonally

Right now, since I am waiting on alot of equiptment I just have a pair of ID CTX Coax's mounted in the Kick panel running off the head unit with no on board processing. It stages at eye level, has a focused center image and definite pillar to pillar width. Good enough to get a 44544(l,lc,c,rc,r) in imaging at the last show I had to take it to , to accumulate enough points to recieve a Finals Invite.

Next-people remove or disconnect rear speakers so the stage is not drawn toward the rear. When was the last time you went to a concert and stood backwards, facing away from the stage the whole time? same concept with rear speakers. WITHOUT DTS processing there is no such thing as "surround" sound. Using rear speakers without serious attentuation and/or delay will draw the soudnstage rearward or close to the listener when ideally teh stage should be well in front of the listener.

also, an E36 Kick panel is HUGE!!! u can quite easily drop about any mid in there with minor sheet metal cutting. None of the sheet metal that needs is structural in anyway, but by enlarging the whole u can easily fit an 8" midrange up front. I am able to fit an IDQ8 with only using a 1/4" baffle.
So no fiberglass is needed.
Pathlength differences in my Coupe are around 10" which is better than majority of all other Coupes I have done systems in the past 8 years from a stock seating position. With extened seat rails my Wife's civic PLD is down to only 4" --i'll be able to minimize my BMW to 6" or less when I am done.

So far my E36 has been more than ideal when it comes to building a competitioncar. it has cooperated with me on every idea I want to incorporate. The only major downside is the use of leather which is highly reflective, but aside from that--its been a dream to work on.

[Sephiroth619]

^Damn yo, what kind of equipment are you running? Sounds killer.

[10isPro]

^Damn yo, what kind of equipment are you running? Sounds killer.

its seldom about what equiptmenst--its always about how its used. Proper execution beats the deepest pocketbook everyday of the week.

[Benny Z]

So many misconceptions in this thread I have no idea where to start.

1st of all the E36 Kick panels work very well for staging and imaging. a Speaker such as Dynaudio or Morel (many others as well) which have good off axis response can produce stellar staging and imaging with eye level stage height.
I would NEVER use the stock door location in any BMW, the pathlengths are not even close to being usable or ideal by any means. Tonality is one thing and can be achieved easily by picking the right speakers and making a few adjustments. But no way in hell using all the stock locations in an E36 will work well technically and tonally

Right now, since I am waiting on alot of equiptment I just have a pair of ID CTX Coax's mounted in the Kick panel running off the head unit with no on board processing. It stages at eye level, has a focused center image and definite pillar to pillar width. Good enough to get a 44544(l,lc,c,rc,r) in imaging at the last show I had to take it to , to accumulate enough points to recieve a Finals Invite.

Next-people remove or disconnect rear speakers so the stage is not drawn toward the rear. When was the last time you went to a concert and stood backwards, facing away from the stage the whole time? same concept with rear speakers. WITHOUT DTS processing there is no such thing as "surround" sound. Using rear speakers without serious attentuation and/or delay will draw the soudnstage rearward or close to the listener when ideally teh stage should be well in front of the listener.

also, an E36 Kick panel is HUGE!!! u can quite easily drop about any mid in there with minor sheet metal cutting. None of the sheet metal that needs is structural in anyway, but by enlarging the whole u can easily fit an 8" midrange up front. I am able to fit an IDQ8 with only using a 1/4" baffle.
So no fiberglass is needed.
Pathlength differences in my Coupe are around 10" which is better than majority of all other Coupes I have done systems in the past 8 years from a stock seating position. With extened seat rails my Wife's civic PLD is down to only 4" --i'll be able to minimize my BMW to 6" or less when I am done.

So far my E36 has been more than ideal when it comes to building a competitioncar. it has cooperated with me on every idea I want to incorporate. The only major downside is the use of leather which is highly reflective, but aside from that--its been a dream to work on.

Have you seen the kick locations of an E36 sedan? Have you? ...and have you seen the space there is to work with before the firewall? It's not the same as the coupes...not at all...really, take a look.

My objective was to keep it simple and relatively inexpensive. This placement obviously doesn't lend to a true audiophile's idea of perfect staging, but then most true audiophiles chuckle at building a perfectly staged system in an automobile.

For the average reader of these forums looking for a replacement speaker set for the OEM locations, this setup gets the job done quite easily. ...and quite nicely at that.

[10isPro]

Have you seen the kick locations of an E36 sedan? Have you? ...and have you seen the space there is to work with before the firewall? It's not the same as the coupes...not at all...really, take a look.

My objective was to keep it simple and relatively inexpensive. This placement obviously doesn't lend to a true audiophile's idea of perfect staging, but then most true audiophiles chuckle at building a perfectly staged system in an automobile.

For the average reader of these forums looking for a replacement speaker set for the OEM locations, this setup gets the job done quite easily. ...and quite nicely at that.

Not sure what you actual experience is with high end audio in car--so please tell me what is your experience with such? Have you heard a vehicle that staged and imaged correctly, have you heard a vehicle which superb tonality which mimiced someof the best Home systems?
And Yes I have seen the kick panel location for a Sedan and a heafty 6" mid can be finessed in there quite easily. and the Off axis response wont differ much from the coupes. Without using the door lcoation---and IMO utilizing the kick panel better, good if not great results can be produced which will both be good tonally and technically. all of a matter of execution. the E36 doors aer a PITA to begin with, they arent speaker friendly from an installer point of view or from an acoustic standpoint. So why even bother?

I have yet to hear a home system that was THAT superb technically and tonally as well, the best to date were a set of Edgar Titans which has since been my reference. but it is a billion times easier to set up than a vehicle just b/c of the listening space. No an Automobile by any means is not an ideal listening enviorment--but many many many audiophiles would be surprised what has been and can be done with some basic understanding of pathlengths, minimzing reflective surfaces, using reflections, processing etc....

but Yes you accompished yoru objective and from a tonal standpoint--the DLS set in stock locations will work superbly for many people. Morel also has several drivers that will work, as does Dynaudio.
So thank you for posting your finding and pics. Looks to be a nice install.