NEW DYNO SHEET! 425rwhp 477rwtq 13PSI Mustang Dyno-Valve Floating Problem-Losing HP

[highboostingm3]

Well I didn't make what my intended goal was but I am extremely happy with my current tuner Chris Muzio. The reason for the low hp number is once again...Mechtech. After they blew my engine in August of 2003, they put it back together wrong. The valves do not like boost over 11 lbs on the dyno so I was barely gaining any horsepower but the torque is obviously there. You can clearly see that I should be making sweet power if everything in my cylinder head was as it should be. Well, the engineering of the kit is amazing & the tuning is awesome...I'll just have to find out what is wrong with the cylinder head in about a month or so. I already have a new MLS Cometic head gasket to go on thanks to EMC. I'll use ARP studs & a bunch of stuff is going to happen to the head. Until then I will enjoy 410rwhp or so at 10PSI which is plenty for me right now. The torque is around 444rwtq at 10PSI. The car has traction problems galore with the low-pro 19's I've got on there. It handles perfect though! I had the suspension tuned & aligned. The new Rogue SSK is amazing! I highly recommend it. Oh yeah, the clutch is a piece of cake compared to my twin carbon plate clutch in my Supra. City driving is fine.

Car: 1997 M3
Weather: Mid 70s
IAT: 82 degrees by 10PSI pull
IAT: 90 degrees by 13PSI pull
Dyno: Mustang
Fuel: 111
Engine: S52/B32
ECU: Haltech E6k 717
Turbo: GT30R
Manifold: Custom Tubular
Compression: 10.0:1
Pistons: JE
Head Gasket: BMP 1.55mm
Injectors: 48lb
Fuel Pump: Walbro
BOV: HKS SSQ
Air Cleaner: HKS
Intercooler: Skyline 24x10.5x3 Core
Piping: Mostly 3"
DP: 3"
Exhaust: 3" all the way with Magnaflow muffler(no cats)
Wastegate: Turbonetics Evolution
Boost Controller: Greddy Profec B
Clutch: Clutch Masters Stage 4
Flywheel: Sachs Lightweight
Aquamist 1S Water Injection



Here is the 9PSI sheet. Lost some torque due to tires spinning on dyno. Then we let out some air in the tires & strapped her down hard for the remaining runs...torque showed it. 389rwhp 394rwtq



This is at 13PSI. All that weird stuff is the valve floating happening. The torque made it but the hp still had a ways to go .


Here is a dyno sheet for everyone that only likes the y-axis to be equal value for both hp & tq so that the curves look familiar & they cross at 52XX rpm.

[Jaded M3]

Great numbers, Cameron! The car looks incredible!

[MFaust]

Nice!!!

[NickG]

Congrats on the new numbers. But note, don't keep running the engine at high RPM if you have valve float. Each time the valves float, the springs get weaker and weaker, bringing the 'float rpm' lower with each pass.

[highboostingm3]

Congrats on the new numbers. But note, don't keep running the engine at high RPM if you have valve float. Each time the valves float, the springs get weaker and weaker, bringing the 'float rpm' lower with each pass.

Very informative! Thanks a ton Nick! I did not know that! I might have to bring her back into the shop sooner than I thought. But I need to drive her for atleast a month. I missed her! So I will watch my rpms!

[ICS Performance]

Congradulations great #'s good luck with the low compression head gasket, 500 whp is right around the corner.

[T-Rex]

Nice man, congrats! Just get that valvetrain ironed out and you'll be set!

[CRISTIAN]

interesting think this valves problem .
many times I was wondering what will happen if the springs don't close enough sooner at high boost and high RPM. Your 13psi dyno is really crazy... so... can someone definitely sustain that he needs stronger valve springs or is something wrong on the head... valve job, valve o-rings or something like that ?

BTW, our hydraulic lifters are good enough for 13psi boost and 7200rpm ? Can or can NOT generate an open valves problem at high RPM?
I ask that, because I know Euro M3 have different metallic lifters (COIN lifters)... and I'm wondering if those coin lifters can help a setup with 13-15psi combined with 7200rpm ?

[tunerx]

What happens is the boost at higher RPM will hold the valves of the valve seat , this normally caused by weak valve springs , Also what happens when the valve is held of the seat is the hyd lifters will pump up and take out any clearance , this just makes the problem get worse as it will take time for the lifters to bleed down again , This problem could also be caused by to much hyd lifter preload caused buy a valve job , buy someone grinding seats or valves to much ..


Dyno sheet looks like its on its way to some really good WHP numbers , The WTQ is crazy !!must be a tire spining machine

[M3TurboCa]

Cameron your numbers just get better and better. Congrats on reaching the 400rwhp anything over that is a bonus.

Too bad that you now have to spend more money on something else that went bad or just showed up. Since you will have the head off to install the MLS head gasket why dont you ask Chris to port out the head and multi angle valve cut this is what I did when it was off.

Damm once this is done like I said before I would not be suprised at you hitting 450rwhp with your setup at 14 to 15 psi.

[artemis]

Excellent numbers!!

Great job!

[paul e]

Cameron, great result... Im especially looking at my pet numbers: IATs, and frankly, Im drooling over yours:

>>Weather: Mid 70s
IAT: 82 degrees by 10PSI pull
IAT: 90 degrees by 13PSI pull
<<

10 to 20 over ambient? Youve got to be kidding.. you must have an incredibly right sized intercooler or something. At your ambient, Id see iats near 105, and Im even happy with Those.. But Yours are Ridiculous... A Big congrats

Might they be assisted by Water Injection by any chance? Does your dyno have Really big fans? whats your secret ok.. i went back and read.. you DO have the 1s kit, like I do. Now it makes sense.. Without the WI, youd probably be near 100-105.. Then the WI removes another 10-15 degrees.. Now I can understand it easier.. Whew... I was really going bonkers for a second there

I see you were using 111 fuel.... Is that the same fuel you use on the street? look forward to seeing your next results.

[guc32]

WOW Very impressive #'s. Congrates. Get that head fixed and throw it on the dyno again.

[jonsibal]

The new Rogue SSK is amazing! I highly recommend it.

Congrats Cameron. Great #s. And yes I agree with the Rouge SSK. I just installed mine and boy... that thing is short! I love it. I also just installed the new lighter RE pulleys.

Now question.. how soon (how many miles/how much HP) would someone running FI be concerned about upgrading their valve springs? My head will be coming off again to replace my retainers and keepers and I'm thinking of doing other stuff with it but the cost of the stiffer springs I'm looking at is around $900 - hook up price too

[highboostingm3]

Cameron your numbers just get better and better. Congrats on reaching the 400rwhp anything over that is a bonus.

Too bad that you now have to spend more money on something else that went bad or just showed up. Since you will have the head off to install the MLS head gasket why dont you ask Chris to port out the head and multi angle valve cut this is what I did when it was off.

Damm once this is done like I said before I would not be suprised at you hitting 450rwhp with your setup at 14 to 15 psi.

Thanks a ton! Finally 400rwhp+ for my car...and I barely ever had 300rwhp from a Dynojet before. So the difference is amazing.

Yeah...Mechtech strikes again huh? Jeez, just when I thought I was done getting rid of all their ghosts, another one comes back to haunt me yet again.

When the head is off we will have it ported, put in aftermarket valve springs, get custom turbo cams grinded & I will look into the multi angle valve cut you suggested.

The thing is, I'm am not sure with my setup if the hp should be over the torque (being that the cylinder head was working properly)...since with George's car & some other high hp S50 & S52s, at the 450rwhp level & above, I think the hp switches to actually rising above the torque. It's all speculation of course, but if that was the case, I'd see 480rwhp or something with the 477rwtq. Not sure. At any respect, atleast I know my setup is working extremely efficiently or so it seems. I admit I just had to have the turbo located up top for aesthetics, but it is now turning out to be an extremely functional advantage as well.

[highboostingm3]

Cameron, great result... Im especially looking at my pet numbers: IATs, and frankly, Im drooling over yours:

>>Weather: Mid 70s
IAT: 82 degrees by 10PSI pull
IAT: 90 degrees by 13PSI pull
<<

10 to 20 over ambient? Youve got to be kidding.. you must have an incredibly right sized intercooler or something. At your ambient, Id see iats near 105, and Im even happy with Those.. But Yours are Ridiculous... A Big congrats

Might they be assisted by Water Injection by any chance? Does your dyno have Really big fans? whats your secret ok.. i went back and read.. you DO have the 1s kit, like I do. Now it makes sense.. Without the WI, youd probably be near 100-105.. Then the WI removes another 10-15 degrees.. Now I can understand it easier.. Whew... I was really going bonkers for a second there

I see you were using 111 fuel.... Is that the same fuel you use on the street? look forward to seeing your next results.

Thanks Paul! Yeah, the WI must help that a lot. I am going to quote a PM I sent you for others to see. I'd like to see their response:

There are a lot of things to consider. I can only guess the reasoning for the low IAT is the efficency of the setup. I had a feeling this might happen but needed proof first. The turbo being located up top creates no pre-heating of the intake charge. The intake piping normally goes right by the exhaust manifold which (as you know) gets up to 1300 or so degrees with the AA kit & most other kits. The compressor piping also stays far away from hot surfaces going straight down to the intercooler. The piping is relatively a short distance & there are less 90 degree bends than a conventional BMW turbo setup. The exhaust manifold & turbine housing are ceramic coated. The other piping has been powdercoted except for one piece going to TB which is chrome. The intercooler is 24x10.5x3 which is pretty large & the charge channels are more efficient than most since it is an Apexi IC. The piping I used is 2.5" from turbo to intercooler & 3" from intercooler to TB. This is a little larger than typical piping. I guess all these factors play a part in the efficiency of the kit.

I drove the car 1.5 hours straight this morning. When I got home I put my hand on the IC piping on the outlet side. It was cold. Amazing!

I am using 111 octane fuel all the time on the street right now. I mentioned in other threads that I found a pump near my house that sells it for $4.68 per gallon. This car is not a daily driver so I can deal with that amount for a few weeks. Then I will have the 91 octane map tuned which will be very conservative & only 8-9PSI. The Haltech allows for dual fuel maps & I have a wire that is ready for the switch to be installed. Once installed it will be a flip of the switch to change between 111-91 & vice versa. It's pretty trick...the AEM EMS can't even do that.

[highboostingm3]

Might they be assisted by Water Injection by any chance?

Paul! At first glance since I don't have the stock windshield washer reservoir it's easy to assume that I don't have WI. Here is my little tank that was put in temporarily. I'll plan to have a vented polished aluminum plate made to cover this area of messy wiring.

[Drifto]

First off, let me say congrats on the power. You've got one serious beast there. I do have a question though. How do you know that the valves are the problem? If boost pressure was indeed forcing the valves off there seat I would expect power to just fall off and not climb back up like yours. It couldn't be knock since a Haltech has no provision for knock control. Therefore no timing is being pulled to cause that. Could it just be a misfire? Did you try gapping the plugs down to see if that would make it better?

[tunerx]

Cameron, great result... Im especially looking at my pet numbers: IATs, and frankly, Im drooling over yours:

>>Weather: Mid 70s
IAT: 82 degrees by 10PSI pull
IAT: 90 degrees by 13PSI pull
<<

10 to 20 over ambient? Youve got to be kidding.. you must have an incredibly right sized intercooler or something. At your ambient, Id see iats near 105, and Im even happy with Those.. But Yours are Ridiculous... A Big congrats

Might they be assisted by Water Injection by any chance? Does your dyno have Really big fans? whats your secret ok.. i went back and read.. you DO have the 1s kit, like I do. Now it makes sense.. Without the WI, youd probably be near 100-105.. Then the WI removes another 10-15 degrees.. Now I can understand it easier.. Whew... I was really going bonkers for a second there

I see you were using 111 fuel.... Is that the same fuel you use on the street? look forward to seeing your next results.

I have seen Camerons m3 under the hood and the intake temp sensor for the haltech data log is located befor the water injection jet , so intake temp reading is the air befor water injection , So he has really good intake temps

[fritzintn]

First off, let me say congrats on the power. You've got one serious beast there. I do have a question though. How do you know that the valves are the problem?

Ditto.

Like everyone else I'm really impressed with the numbers and the thought that went into your setup. Just a bit curious as to how one notices valve float.

[psk145]

great results!!

I might need to get the name of your mechanic. My mechanic still hasnt been able to fix my car, and no one in OC wants to touch it.

[paul e]

>>I have seen Camerons m3 under the hood and the intake temp sensor for the haltech data log is located befor the water injection jet , so intake temp reading is the air befor water injection , So he has really good intake temps<<

Interesting.. I didnt know whether he has the 3.2l or 3.0l intake manifold, so i didnt know where even his bmw iat sensor is located. With the OBDII manifold, its just inside the throttle body; in the obdi mani, its likely ahead of the wi nozzle.. And if hes using a custom IAT thermocouple, then as you say he can place it anywhere he wants. That its ahead of the wi nozzle, makes these results even more staggering. 10 to 15 degrees above Ambient??? All I can say is Ive never seen iat results like this on a street car. I was looking at mine yesterday, and WITH the WI on, im seeing ambient plus 20 to 25, which i consider damn good in its own right. But Cameron's are just insane :

[OZ3M]

Thanks a ton! Finally 400rwhp+ for my car...and I barely ever had 300rwhp from a Dynojet before. So the difference is amazing.

Yeah...Mechtech strikes again huh? Jeez, just when I thought I was done getting rid of all their ghosts, another one comes back to haunt me yet again.

When the head is off we will have it ported, put in aftermarket valve springs, get custom turbo cams grinded & I will look into the multi angle valve cut you suggested.

The thing is, I'm am not sure with my setup if the hp should be over the torque (being that the cylinder head was working properly)...since with George's car & some other high hp S50 & S52s, at the 450rwhp level & above, I think the hp switches to actually rising above the torque. It's all speculation of course, but if that was the case, I'd see 480rwhp or something with the 477rwtq. Not sure. At any respect, atleast I know my setup is working extremely efficiently or so it seems. I admit I just had to have the turbo located up top for aesthetics, but it is now turning out to be an extremely functional advantage as well.

I do not think you will be able to get more than that with a GT30R. It seems to me like your turbo is too small for what you want. The TQ graph shows early spool and peak...nice, however, the turbo is not big enough for top end...good luck.

[Mikea]

Congrats, on your numbers and set-up you have yor self one bad M3

[Fissionx]

from my experience the GT series turbos can flow a lot more power than they are rated for; i agree it isn't going to be very efficent at that high flow, but it isn't going to make the graph look like THAT. You should be making a lot more power, espically with that fuel, but hopefully you can get w/e issues your car has resloved soon. I'd also suggest not driving it untill it's safe. What kind of ignition setup do you have?
I've been hearing some cool stories about omar's car .