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Thread: Fuel problems, pls advise...

  1. #1
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    Fuel problems, pls advise...

    I can not get enough fuel above 32 psi.

    4 Bosch fuel pumps. 2 fuel pumps on each fuel line.

    2 fuel lines each having 8 mm inner diameter.

    fuel injector rail stock, not modified.

    fuel injector rail is fed from 2 points.

    Aeromotive 2000 hp fuel pressure regulator.

    1600 cc Bosch fuel injectors.

    43 psi fuel pressure under WOT.
    The duty cycle is at 100 %.

    Above 32 psi manifold pressure we have lean AFRS and high EGTs. We ran 37 psi and AFRs were very lean with 1600 F EGTs.

    If I try to run 60 psi on the fuel line the injectors get clogged and stupid.

    If I install 4 bigger pumps will it help? Fuel pressure is 43 psi constant at WOT. So, will 2 big pumps flowing at 43 psi have the same flow as the 4 pumps that I currently run at 43 psi?

    Would it be helpful to install a bigger fuel injetor rail?

    I cannot believe we max out at 32 psi. There must be some solution.

    Please advise me something.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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    E46 M3 SMG under turbo surgery

  2. #2
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    wait a second there.........you're running 32psi in the intake manifold and only getting 43psi of fuel pressure at WOT? Something is seriously wrong here.......

    The fuel pressure regulator should have a vacuum/boost line that's connected to the intake manifold. The regulator should then INCREASE the fuel pressure as boost increases. Let's say you have a 3bar regulator (43.5psi). If boosting 10psi in the manifold, then the fuel pressure should be 53.5psi. So in your case, with 32psi in the manifold, you should have about 75psi of fuel pressure.

    Do you not have the fuel pressure regulator connected to the intake manifold???
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

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    Nick

    I have connected a vacuum/boost line to the fuel pressure regulator. But as soon as boost increases fuel rpessure increases also. Last night fuel pressure at idle was 43 psi, boost 32 psi and at WOT fuel pressure goes to 75 psi. But at pressures above 60 psi the injectors cannot work properly. I guess, I am not sure, the peak and hold type injectors cannot work under high fuel pressures. Opening and closing of the injector needle becomes irratic. Moreover when fuel pressure hits 75 psi it falls back to 45 psi. So we cannot hold fuel pressure at 75 psi.

    1600 cc injectors should be able to feed fuel for 1641 hp.
    1600/10,5= 152 lb each injector's capacity in terms of pounds
    (152 * 6 * 0,9) / 0,5 = 1641 hp.

    So, what is wrong? 1600 cc injectors are sold and rated at 43 psi.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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    E46 M3 SMG under turbo surgery

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    We need some video of what 32 psi looks like.

  6. #6
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    I read Aeromotive's fuel pump details.

    Conclusion is 2 pumps can have different flow ratings at the same pressure.

    Maning that 43 psi that we have with 4 pumps is not supplying enough flow.

    I have to get 2 big Aeromotive fuel pumps.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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    E46 M3 SMG under turbo surgery

  7. #7
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    Mert, your problem is either the fuel pump(s) or the fuel pressure regulator. I'm betting it's the fuel pressure regulator, as 4 Bosch pumps should be able to provide enough flow. Your regulator NEEDS to provide 43.5psi + boost psi of fuel pressure. If it doesn't, then there is NO WAY you'll get enough fuel into the engine.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mertdastan
    Nick

    I have connected a vacuum/boost line to the fuel pressure regulator. But as soon as boost increases fuel rpessure increases also. Last night fuel pressure at idle was 43 psi, boost 32 psi and at WOT fuel pressure goes to 75 psi. But at pressures above 60 psi the injectors cannot work properly. I guess, I am not sure, the peak and hold type injectors cannot work under high fuel pressures. Opening and closing of the injector needle becomes irratic. Moreover when fuel pressure hits 75 psi it falls back to 45 psi. So we cannot hold fuel pressure at 75 psi.

    1600 cc injectors should be able to feed fuel for 1641 hp.
    1600/10,5= 152 lb each injector's capacity in terms of pounds
    (152 * 6 * 0,9) / 0,5 = 1641 hp.

    So, what is wrong? 1600 cc injectors are sold and rated at 43 psi.
    Mert, something doesn't add up. You're running 43psi at IDLE (which is in vaccuum). Lets assume 18in.Hg. that means at 32psi (manifold pressure) your you should have 43+~18+32 = ~93 psi. Either your measuring equipment is off (not likely) or you didn't really measure and are making assumptions.... or you didn't really measure for OTHER reasons.

    Which is it, Mert? :

    Boris
    '96 Cosmos Black M3 422rwhp/407rwtq SAE @ 13psi / 444rwhp/444rwtq SAE @ 14.5psi
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  9. #9
    ///3oris's Avatar
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    Wait... aren't the 1600's low impedence, while your stock injectors high impedence... (I thought you still ran the stock computer with UNICHIP or something?)

    Boris
    '96 Cosmos Black M3 422rwhp/407rwtq SAE @ 13psi / 444rwhp/444rwtq SAE @ 14.5psi
    Engine/Drivetrain: Technique Tuning Stage 2 Turbo TT Turbo Exhaust, M50 Manifold, TMS Oil Baffles, SSR Comps, SPEC Stage II Clutch, UUC SSK, Titanium Cavallino Ti-130R Shift Knob, UUC TME, EMC Diff Bolt, RCCA's. Suspension: GC Coil-overs, GC RSMs, GC RTABs, GC Trans Mount; H&R SB. Instrumentation: VDO Boost, VDO Oil Press, VDO Oil Temp, VDO Water Temp, BMW Traffic Pro Navigation, Valentine One TODO: W/A Injection


  10. #10
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    Nick I trying to understand if our cars E36 M3 is 3.5 bar 51psi and we are running say 10 psi what does the injector see 61 psi ??

    Since this is the pressure does it means the injectors are flowing more fuel since the pressure is 61 vs 51.

    Thanks.
    AA Stage 1 Gen III, BMP head gasket, Bored Throttle Body, 3.0"DnPipe & Custom exhaust with AA Gen 2, Aquamist 1s water/methanol injection,
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  11. #11
    ///3oris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3TurboCa
    Nick I trying to understand if our cars E36 M3 is 3.5 bar 51psi and we are running say 10 psi what does the injector see 61 psi ??

    Since this is the pressure does it means the injectors are flowing more fuel since the pressure is 61 vs 51.

    Thanks.
    You have to remember that the pressure in the manifold is working with or against the pressure in the rail. So if the pressure in the manifold is 10psi and you increase the fuel pressure by 10psi your effective fuel pressure (going into the engine) is still 51psi + 10psi - 10psi = 51psi.

    Boris

    EDIT: Oops, I'm not Nick... sorry for answering :
    '96 Cosmos Black M3 422rwhp/407rwtq SAE @ 13psi / 444rwhp/444rwtq SAE @ 14.5psi
    Engine/Drivetrain: Technique Tuning Stage 2 Turbo TT Turbo Exhaust, M50 Manifold, TMS Oil Baffles, SSR Comps, SPEC Stage II Clutch, UUC SSK, Titanium Cavallino Ti-130R Shift Knob, UUC TME, EMC Diff Bolt, RCCA's. Suspension: GC Coil-overs, GC RSMs, GC RTABs, GC Trans Mount; H&R SB. Instrumentation: VDO Boost, VDO Oil Press, VDO Oil Temp, VDO Water Temp, BMW Traffic Pro Navigation, Valentine One TODO: W/A Injection


  12. #12
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    Nick G: I read Aeromotive's web page. There I found the fuel flow vs. fuel pressure charts. Maximum flow is at 40 psi. As you increase fuel pressure flow decreases.

    I tried running 60 psi, and even 80 psi but the fuel pressure falls down to 45 psi again. So maybe the pumps cannot keep up.

    The regulator is a 2,000 hp Aeromotive one, capable of working with alcohol based fuels.


    BORIS: Unichip is removed, I have TSI that can control the low impedance injectors. I removed the hose that is bring air/vacuum from the manifold to the fuel pressure reg. Because as manifold boost increases so does fuel pressure and at those fuel pressures such as 80 psi injectors cannot be controlled. I know that paek and hold ones cannot be controlled above a certain fuel pressure.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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    E46 M3 SMG under turbo surgery

  13. #13
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    No problem Boris just trying to understand and thanks for the info.
    AA Stage 1 Gen III, BMP head gasket, Bored Throttle Body, 3.0"DnPipe & Custom exhaust with AA Gen 2, Aquamist 1s water/methanol injection,
    Last dynojet Aug 02 248c SAE 369whp/354ft-lbs at 10.5psi, 1/4mile 12.6@116mph
    New Sept 02 Head work and exhaust porting, April 04:UUC Pulleys, Turbo to intercooler pipe 2.5" Aug 04 3.5"HFM,11.5psi

  14. #14
    ///3oris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mertdastan
    BORIS: Unichip is removed, I have TSI that can control the low impedance injectors. I removed the hose that is bring air/vacuum from the manifold to the fuel pressure reg. Because as manifold boost increases so does fuel pressure and at those fuel pressures such as 80 psi injectors cannot be controlled. I know that paek and hold ones cannot be controlled above a certain fuel pressure.
    How could you measure what you measurd if your vaccuum line is disconnected? Let me explain it another way... if the pressure WENT UP as a result of boost (as stated in your previous post), then it should have just as well have gone up as a result of going from vaccuum to no boost. In otherwords, it should have GONE DOWN as a result of vaccum. Your "measurements" do not add up!

    Boris

    P.S. What's TSI? URL? Thx.
    '96 Cosmos Black M3 422rwhp/407rwtq SAE @ 13psi / 444rwhp/444rwtq SAE @ 14.5psi
    Engine/Drivetrain: Technique Tuning Stage 2 Turbo TT Turbo Exhaust, M50 Manifold, TMS Oil Baffles, SSR Comps, SPEC Stage II Clutch, UUC SSK, Titanium Cavallino Ti-130R Shift Knob, UUC TME, EMC Diff Bolt, RCCA's. Suspension: GC Coil-overs, GC RSMs, GC RTABs, GC Trans Mount; H&R SB. Instrumentation: VDO Boost, VDO Oil Press, VDO Oil Temp, VDO Water Temp, BMW Traffic Pro Navigation, Valentine One TODO: W/A Injection


  15. #15
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    Boris

    Surely fuel pressure increases during the transition from vacuum to boost.

    TSI =Tuning Solutions International
    Australian firm.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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    Quote Originally Posted by mertdastan
    Nick

    I have connected a vacuum/boost line to the fuel pressure regulator. But as soon as boost increases fuel rpessure increases also. Last night fuel pressure at idle was 43 psi, boost 32 psi and at WOT fuel pressure goes to 75 psi. But at pressures above 60 psi the injectors cannot work properly. I guess, I am not sure, the peak and hold type injectors cannot work under high fuel pressures. Opening and closing of the injector needle becomes irratic. Moreover when fuel pressure hits 75 psi it falls back to 45 psi. So we cannot hold fuel pressure at 75 psi.

    1600 cc injectors should be able to feed fuel for 1641 hp.
    1600/10,5= 152 lb each injector's capacity in terms of pounds
    (152 * 6 * 0,9) / 0,5 = 1641 hp.

    So, what is wrong? 1600 cc injectors are sold and rated at 43 psi.
    Sounds like your running out of fuel if its dropping off, why dont you use an Aeromotive fuel pump good for 1200-1500 hp run a #10 line to the rail and #8-10 return that will be plenty of volume and enough return. If its dropping off like that you have a lack of volume to the regulator.(Not all aeromotives are good for that kind of horsepower only certain ones).

  17. #17
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    IMPORTEDCARS

    I have 2 aeromotive pumps each flowing 600 lbs per hr. Will be installed this weekend.

    Moroever we are putting in a new hand made fuel rail, it is 3,5 times bigger than the stock rail.
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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  18. #18
    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by mertdastan
    Nick G: I read Aeromotive's web page. There I found the fuel flow vs. fuel pressure charts. Maximum flow is at 40 psi. As you increase fuel pressure flow decreases.

    I tried running 60 psi, and even 80 psi but the fuel pressure falls down to 45 psi again. So maybe the pumps cannot keep up.
    how were you testing the fuel pressure? how is the fuel rail system set up? do all 4 pumps feed a single spot that is then split among the fuel rails? or are you running one stock fuel rail? (if so, that may be your problem.)

    are they all high pressure pumps, or is it low pressure lift pumps feeding high pressure output pumps?

    for the injectors, they shouldn't have any locking up issues until well after 100 psi. If you are having issues with this, its time for better injectors. most FI race cars that I've dealt with ran 8 bar fuel pressure regulators. fuel pressure under boost was way up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by mertdastan
    I removed the hose that is bring air/vacuum from the manifold to the fuel pressure reg. Because as manifold boost increases so does fuel pressure and at those fuel pressures such as 80 psi injectors cannot be controlled. I know that paek and hold ones cannot be controlled above a certain fuel pressure.
    if you can't control the injectors, throw them away and get some that you can control.
    the fuel pressure regulator needs to maintain the pressure differential between the rail and the manifold. if you disconnect its boost reference, it won't work well at all. if the fuel rail is still at low pressures (3 bar), and you run 2 bar in the manifold, you've only got an effective 1 bar of fuel pressure. if the injectors were rated at 152 lb/hr @ 3 bar, then at 1 bar they only flow about 88 lb/hr. (meaning you really need manifold pressure referenced fuel pessure to run the engine properly.)

    so you have any data on this car? would be helpful to see manifold pressure vs. fuel pressure vs. RPM... and maybe EGT and O2 output with it.

    can whatever you are using control more than 6 injectors? going to multiple fuel rails, if you aren't using more than one already that is, would make a lot more sense.
    Michael McCoy TRM

  19. #19
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    Techno550

    Where do I have to measure fuel pressure? On the fuel rail or on the fuel pressure regulator?
    S50B32 + GT4XX = 1100 hp
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  20. #20
    techno550 is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    mert, the fuel pressure in the rail (at the injectors really) is what counts. I assume that your setup has the pump feed the rail on one end, and at the other end of the rail is the pressure regulator, which *feeds* back to the tank. its usually ok to just measure the fuel pressure just before the rail on the line from the pump, and *assume* that its the same in the rail.
    Michael McCoy TRM

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