oh yeah, definetely R&D has to do with that price...
The harsh reality is that someone else is going to copy that design VERY quickly and sell it for a much more reasonable price. (Remember evosport and their accessory pulleys?)
I appreciate the fact that AA did all the R&D, but it's a simple piece and relatively easy to fabricate.
IMO, they should offer it to customers for less and that way they can assure that potential customers won't hold out for a cheaper copy.
Even a limited-time offer (GB/introductory price) would have alot of people jump on it simply because it's an intelligent idea and they want to prevent the risk of a costly repair. A free $15 T-shirt doesn't convince me to jump on this immediately.
Last edited by Big Lun; 04-28-2004 at 01:32 AM.
On the site it says it took over a year to develop this. Maybe or maybe not this is true and R&D was very expensive.
I hate when "we" (as a collective group) bitch about pricing every time a new product is introduced because it doesn't encourage new products such as this; however, sometimes I feel like vendors are taking advantage because we own BMW's...I know I probably just opened a flame war...
Yes, I read that. If that part took over a year to develop, there's something wrong with the 'engineers' at AA. :Originally Posted by GreekM3
But that's NOT the point. The point is that someone is going to copy that design and pump out a copy for cheaper....and AA is going to lose business because of it. If they offer that part for a more attractive price, chances of that happening will be less.
I appreciate the fact that AA put the intellectual effort into designing and eventually offering this to E36 owners. I understand that we should support those companies who have made the effort to offer us aftermarket parts, but that's not happening. How many E36 owners have evosport pulleys? I bet you there's alot less than those who have the cheaper copies made by other companies.
I, for one, supported evosport and purchased their pulleys when accessory pulleys were being "introduced" by companies like UUC and RE. I simply emailed Brad and told him straight-up that the introductory offers from UUC were attractive enough for me to consider accessory pulleys. HOWEVER, I'd rather support his efforts and purchase his pulleys if he'd consider reducing the price of his pulleys. He was quite impressed with my honesty and offered his pulleys at a discount, but still significantly higher than UUC's price.
You know what? I bought the more expensive evosport pulleys. Not only to support him, but also because he was sensible to know where I, as a customer, was coming from.
My point is that I'll support the company that made the effort, even pay MORE for their part if other companies come out with a cheaper knockoff, but let's not get too carried away with the price.
Not at all.Originally Posted by GreekM3
Last edited by Big Lun; 04-28-2004 at 01:35 AM.
man if aa made it .. u know its gonna cost top dollar lol .. i dont think they sell anything cheap
so if I bought this, would that mean that I'd lose my title as Diff Bolt Killer? I think I hold the world title in that arena.
I'm already on this, but honesly looking to see if a vendor will do a group buy on this first. $200 for the product isn't terrible but as with all AA products, a group buy is just waiting to be announced.
-Ron
Hey man, I'm a professional!
all you need is steel, plasma cutter , and a welder and you can be pumping out copies. But right now $200 is a little to high for my blood for something like that. My setup right now I can change broken bolts in seconds because of the way it is, and I havent snapped one since so go figure.
let me see if I understand this whole thing. NONE of you have spent ANY ammout of time designing and researching this piece.... When AA does the whole thing, starts producing them in X ammounts, you all complain about the price. So basically, you do none of the work, when somebody else does it, you complain, and you want all the benefits for free???? The way I see it is this: AA produces quality things from what I have read FROM ALL OF YOU IN THE FORUMS. Most people complain about their prices, yet you all want it. Anytime a company produces a new item you ask for a group buy, meaning HAGGLING the price of the items.
People: IF any of you had spent ay time at all designing and researching the piece, that now some of you are calling a piece of steel, you would now be reaping the beefit from your work. AA is doing exactly that, reping the benefits of their work. Quit complaining and if thigs are THAT simple DO THEM YOURSELF.
It get tiring after a while to see this, in my opinion: The first one to do the work reaps the benefits,which seems fair. I personally repect any company that takes the time to do the work, there is pride in that.
Sure there are gonna be knock offs, and its those thats do not earn my respect, because they wait for a product o be released, which DOES TAKE TIME, whether its a year or not...I couldnt say....
whats the message? : BE FAIR...
we're all being fair here, but we all know that a vendor is going to setup a group buy for the part as soon as it becomes readily available in quantity.
needless to say, I'll have one on my car very soon.
-Ron
Hey man, I'm a professional!
Hey buddy, the only reason I'm asking for a GB is because it's too expensive for me to buy as it is priced. And in my opinion it (along with the vast majority of other M3 add-ons) is way overpriced to begin with.
being fair is one thing..however are we supposed to not say anything about pricing at all??? Keep in mind I am not bashing AA's pricing, I have no idea what R&D went into this product.Originally Posted by dolcegabana
As consumers in a capitalist market we do have the privlidge to question a company's pricing. Are we supposed to take every products pricing with a smile and keep our mouths shut? I am thankful to AA for making a good product that does solve a problem, however, they are a business and are subject to our opinions just like other companies.
Can anyone explain how this thing actually works?
The attachment to the subframe via the two bottom bolts and front diff bolt locks the bracket to the "chassis", but it doesn't keep the diff from pivoting. The arm that goes up beside the driveshaft must? be grabbing/hooking/bolting on something on the side of the diff to limit the movement.
I looked at the spare diff in my garage and there is a flange there, but there isn't an obvious attachment point.
-Gary
Trailer Queen!
Originally Posted by GreekM3
No one ever said anythng about keeping any mouths shut. I don't If I might have been misunderstood a little. Let me explain:
1- I dont think that people should complain about a poduct that SOMEBODY else researches, develops, and manufactures, since none of us (myself included) have done nothing in the past to fix a common issue with the E36 chassis.
2- It is completely unfair to take advantage of any company, not just AA, when someone waits for a product to be released to market, and then just copy it and make a cheaper version. in my view its unethical to wait for someone to put all the intellect and time, then a John Doe comes along an just profits from someone elses intelect, hard work and time put into a project. It has no honor for them to work hard at something the someone comes out with th same product paitedin a diferent color, and flood the market with 5000 of these. Which will surely happen. Given that most people have no respect for intelectual property.
3- Eventhough the initial pricing is decided by whoever makes the product, it is the buyers who bring down or up the price of the item according to demand.
4- Anybdy who works hard to bring a product to us (market), has complete rights to benefit from their work put in. Most of us like to be appreciated for what we do, thus we get paid from the work we put in, just like AA. Guys lets not look at vendors as if they are the enemy , they all (most of them anyway) wor hard to make and sell things that we need. If the pricing is high, that will surely show in the near future, whether or not the DFB's sell or not. My guess, is they are probably sold already. Thus the pricing.
5- Being fair DOESN'T mean : be quiet, go buy the product, and overpay. it simply means that they work hard for it, or a the very least they worked for it, and that deserves respect.
That is all Im saying...
PS this is a peaceful post, no need to Flame...
Why does it say "Race use only" on it? Is this thing going to stress the subframe?
:I never knew it was a problemOriginally Posted by dolcegabana
Nevertheless, I give AA total credit for stepping and (at least) making a solid effort in resolving this issue.
However, I do NOT believe it takes a year to do so.
I agree.Originally Posted by dolcegabana
If the RSB was a "fix" for a non-BMW (or non-German car) it would be WAY cheaper. Are vendors justified in jacking up their prices simply because we drive a BMW??Originally Posted by dolcegabana
I'm sure a similar fix HAS been developed for other cars and likely sells for much less, even though the other companies put in the same effort and time as AA.
Heck, just make it free shipping on this item. At least then I can convince myself that I'm getting a deal!
mrdoenutz,Originally Posted by mrdoenutz
I don't understand where that vertical arm actually goes. What does it bolt up to?
Is the finished product going to be red? I'd actually prefer it in black. Is it powdercoated or painted?
True, However relative fixes on Hondas, are cheaper because the market is flooded from day 1 of the product, given that the ratio of Honda entusiasts to BMW enthusiasts (and Im guessing here) 10:1 This leads again to the basic principles of economics. By the way I Do not intend anything bad about Hondas, Im just using an example.Originally Posted by Big Lun
And I agree with you in the sense, that BMW owners are STUCK with a premium cost over all in most things BMW. But that is simething I have come to accept. I know of very few car companies that give its owners such a high ratio of Driving pleasure : ownership cost.
so in the picture on the website of the stock bolt
it seems as if it yielded due to shear stress
this would mean that it doesn't fracture, so how would one tell if their diff bolt is messed up?
also, what kind of people will need this reinforcement? a few runs at the track, autoxers, etc...
///M3 Cc#65
95 M3 Alpine White Acquired 6/17/03
Cosmos Racing 3.5" CAI / AA Stage II Euro HFM Kit / UUC Stage II Flywheel / M5 Clutch / AA Gen III Exhaust / Bilstein + Eibach Prokit / OEM X-Brace / AA Strut Brace / ZKW + OEM M5 Projectors / Philips 85123 upgrade
97 Integra LS-Turbo Sold 6/14/03
10 psi of boost
I destroy bolts by simply launching my car - it's either my technique - 2,500 feather roll out and then snap shifting the rest of the way - it's a rash of bad bolts I've been getting. It's usually my 1st-2nd shift that snaps the bolt in half and then I have to limp home.Originally Posted by 95MMM
This bolt was only a few days old before it bought the farm. the bolt to the left only lasted only 200 miles before being horribly bent.
Hey man, I'm a professional!
thanks for the reply madhatter
can u explain how to tell if your diff bolt is messed up wihtout removing it from teh car?
///M3 Cc#65
95 M3 Alpine White Acquired 6/17/03
Cosmos Racing 3.5" CAI / AA Stage II Euro HFM Kit / UUC Stage II Flywheel / M5 Clutch / AA Gen III Exhaust / Bilstein + Eibach Prokit / OEM X-Brace / AA Strut Brace / ZKW + OEM M5 Projectors / Philips 85123 upgrade
97 Integra LS-Turbo Sold 6/14/03
10 psi of boost
Definetely no need to flame....I don't think anyones flaming yet.Originally Posted by dolcegabana
As for people complaining about products I think thats where your wrong. Companies put R&D in a product so they can sell it on the market and make profit. I personally don't feel like I owe a company anything...they make things for their benifit, not ours.
As for your (4) comment that just shows why I am frustrated with vendors. They introduce a product, know it's good, so they over-charge. When a rival company comes out with a less inexpensive product they cry becuase their idea got stolen...well guess what, if they appropriately priced the product from the start they wouldn't have that problem.
it's actually very easy to tell if you have destroyed the diff bolt - as in the picture I attached. the differential will literally smash in to the underbody of the car as torque (power) is sent to the differential. it is one of the worst sounds in the world and the car is nearly undrivable.
if you have bent your diff bolt, it's a little more difficult as the sound can be confused with other problems. what you want to listen for is a click/thunk sound as you get on/off the clutch while the car is cruising. a bent diff bolt allows the diff to move ever so slightly, the clicking/thunking sound is the diff doing it's dance as you connect and disconnect power going to it.
you can actually place your hand flat on the power tunnel (the hump that seperates the rear passanger footwells) and feel the diff moving around when you have this type of problem.
some times this noise can be confused with a worn guibo or other failed components including failed/worn subframe bushings.
the best way to see if your diff bolt is toast though is to get under the car and pull out the diff bolt for a visual inspection. if you don't have the 18 mm socket needed to extract the bolt, you can always stick the palm of your hand directly on the diff input flange and push up. if the diff moves even a hair, get a new bolt. remember, hand on the input flange, any where else and you won't have the needed leverage to do this test.
Bill (yes, the same Bill in this thread) taught me to check that bolt's tightness during every oil change but unfortunately, I have yet to have a bolt last me that long.
I hope that helps - extracting a broken diff bolt is NOT a fun way to spend your afternoon.
-Ron
Hey man, I'm a professional!
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