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Thread: Going for a number...

  1. #1
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    Going for a number...

    Gents,

    I'd like to hear a few opinions...

    I'm heading to my buddy's dyno shop in the am. The plan is to get a legit number on pump gas without tire slip. Last time, the drag radials were heating up and started to slip as soon as the car broke the 550-575whp mark.

    This time I'll be running regular street tires, which will hopefully hold power and allow for a cleaner dyno pull.

    I plan on doing a few pulls, one at 15, 18, 20 and 21-22psi on pump. Then, I'd like to do a few pulls with 100 octane. What's the max boost/whp you guys recommend with 100 octane?

    Thanks,
    Ryan
    OLD
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    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
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  2. #2
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    It's hard to choose what is safe, because you don't really know until you get there. How big are the fans on the IC? How much CFM? Are you monitoring IATs? There are a ton of factors of what is safe on the dyno.

    For reference, CES ran 27 psi with 100 octane + meth on their GTX35R car. I'd say 25-26 psi for sure no problem. Much above that, who knows?

    I hit 28 psi on the dyno at peak torque with MS109 and no issues (101 motor octane)

    What fuel specifically are you using, and will it be mixed or straight?

    -Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  3. #3
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    Tanks95 is offline M3s Only Have Two Doors BMW CCA Member
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    Ditto what Mike said....

    If your M3 doesn’t have 3 pedals and 2 doors, I would really consider contacting BMW to confirm the authenticity of your incorrectly badged mid-sized family sedan.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    It's hard to choose what is safe, because you don't really know until you get there. How big are the fans on the IC? How much CFM? Are you monitoring IATs? There are a ton of factors of what is safe on the dyno.

    For reference, CES ran 27 psi with 100 octane + meth on their GTX35R car. I'd say 25-26 psi for sure no problem. Much above that, who knows?

    I hit 28 psi on the dyno at peak torque with MS109 and no issues (101 motor octane)

    What fuel specifically are you using, and will it be mixed or straight?

    -Mike
    Sorry for the OT...

    28psi at peak torque. Please tell the number.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    It's hard to choose what is safe, because you don't really know until you get there. How big are the fans on the IC? How much CFM? Are you monitoring IATs? There are a ton of factors of what is safe on the dyno.

    For reference, CES ran 27 psi with 100 octane + meth on their GTX35R car. I'd say 25-26 psi for sure no problem. Much above that, who knows?

    I hit 28 psi on the dyno at peak torque with MS109 and no issues (101 motor octane)

    What fuel specifically are you using, and will it be mixed or straight?

    -Mike
    There are multiple fans. Not sure the CFM, although very high hp cars dyno/ are tuned there daily... I'm going to place an IAT probe post MAF and pre TB. I hope IAT's aren't a problem now, especially since the car has the 4" core. I'll be running the 93 octane that's in the tank, prob 4 gals total. After the pump gas pulls I'll either run the 93 out or pump if out. Then I'll add 5 gal of Sunoco 100 octane and turn up the boost.

    I'd love to break 7's with 100...


    Anyone ever bend/break eagles?
    Last edited by futureroadracer; 12-14-2012 at 09:11 PM.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by futureroadracer View Post
    Gents,

    I'd like to hear a few opinions...

    I'm heading to my buddy's dyno shop in the am. The plan is to get a legit number on pump gas without tire slip. Last time, the drag radials were heating up and started to slip as soon as the car broke the 550-575whp mark.

    This time I'll be running regular street tires, which will hopefully hold power and allow for a cleaner dyno pull.

    I plan on doing a few pulls, one at 15, 18, 20 and 21-22psi on pump. Then, I'd like to do a few pulls with 100 octane. What's the max boost/whp you guys recommend with 100 octane?

    Thanks,
    Ryan

    We ran 25psi with conservative tune 103 octane sohc

  7. #7
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    How's the SOHC compare to the DOHC?
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  8. #8
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    Straight 100 Sunoco, crank it. Your turbo will support 700 easy.

    If you're already running that much power and 22 psi on only 93 octane, I'm sure you can run 26-28 psi for sure on straight 100 (assuming IATs are in check at that power level)

    Which specific sunoco fuel is it? What's the motor octane?

    -Mike
    Last edited by MikeE36; 12-14-2012 at 09:49 PM.
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by futureroadracer View Post
    How's the SOHC compare to the DOHC?
    DOHC is more efficient motor. you will fare good on your goal

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    Straight 100 Sunoco, crank it. Your turbo will support 700 easy.

    If you're already running that much power and 22 psi on only 93 octane, I'm sure you can run 26-28 psi for sure on straight 100 (assuming IATs are in check at that power level)

    Which specific sunoco fuel is it? What's the motor octane?

    -Mike
    Yeah, gotta watch MAF voltage...

    -What IAT does the ECU pull timing?
    -What is considered "in-check"

    Honestly, I'm not sure what the motor octane is. The Sunoco station near my house has 100 unleaded and 110 leaded at the pump. I also have access to URT Advanced, which is 105 motor octane.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by futureroadracer View Post
    Yeah, gotta watch MAF voltage...

    -What IAT does the ECU pull timing?
    -What is considered "in-check"

    Honestly, I'm not sure what the motor octane is. The Sunoco station near my house has 100 unleaded and 110 leaded at the pump. I also have access to URT Advanced, which is 105 motor octane.
    I'm not too sure how the stock ECU works, but there should be a compensation table for X number of degrees IAT it pulls Y degrees timing. I don't know what temp is the lowest value.

    I'd say "in-check" as in as low as possible. Maybe 110-120 F max. 150+ F and you're most likely in trouble. Drifting IATs are usually the worst around Ambient + 60 F, so 100 F day, 160 F IAT. Shoot for 110-120 or less if you're trying to go for big power. The lower the better. Ideally you'd have like 60-70 F or something on a cold day for the glory runs.

    Higher the octane the better also, leaded or not when going for max power. 110 leaded would definitely give you some head room

    Also, your torque is fairly low relative to your horsepower, (as is with big turbos usually) so you really have a TON of head room on the table. Only 488 ft-lbs on pump gas isn't really that big of a deal, but the horsepower up top is great due to the larger turbo. I'd say 600 ft-lbs on any of those fuels isn't unreasonable, and that would be 750+ hp.

    Use the 110 and crank it

    What was your peak MAF V on the 636 pull? What does it do at 22 psi? How much head room do you have?

    -Mike
    Last edited by MikeE36; 12-14-2012 at 10:53 PM.
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  12. #12
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    700whp or bust

    150+ in the 1/4
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    ^yea!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    I'm not too sure how the stock ECU works, but there should be a compensation table for X number of degrees IAT it pulls Y degrees timing. I don't know what temp is the lowest value.

    I'd say "in-check" as in as low as possible. Maybe 110-120 F max. 150+ F and you're most likely in trouble. Drifting IATs are usually the worst around Ambient + 60 F, so 100 F day, 160 F IAT. Shoot for 110-120 or less if you're trying to go for big power. The lower the better. Ideally you'd have like 60-70 F or something on a cold day for the glory runs.

    Higher the octane the better also, leaded or not when going for max power. 110 leaded would definitely give you some head room

    Also, your torque is fairly low relative to your horsepower, (as is with big turbos usually) so you really have a TON of head room on the table. Only 488 ft-lbs on pump gas isn't really that big of a deal, but the horsepower up top is great due to the larger turbo. I'd say 6000 ft-lbs on any of those fuels isn't unreasonable, and that would be 750+ hp.

    Use the 110 and crank it

    What was your peak MAF V on the 636 pull? What does it do at 22 psi? How much head room do you have?

    -Mike
    Yeah man, I'm tracking most of the info you posted. Just not sure why the IAT temps that everyone references is still such a mystery. Maybe the ECU doesn't do anything until 180* IAT's... especially if fuel quality is there. Who knows man.

    My torque is not low, it was the dyno. Very small dynojet. The car has made 530ftlbs on the load bearing dyno and then is fell due to wheel slip. Torque will be higher as long as the tires don't slip...

    I don't think I have enough timing to run 110 either. When I was running the URT, the car was falling on it's face until 23ish and I still don't think it was optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by RK-Tunes View Post
    700whp or bust

    150+ in the 1/4
    I am all but certain she'd go 150+ with the 2.93's and the small intercooler. Car is so much faster now with the 2.93 gear.
    Last edited by futureroadracer; 12-14-2012 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by futureroadracer View Post
    Yeah man, I'm tracking most of the info you posted. Just not sure why the IAT temps that everyone references is still such a mystery. Maybe the ECU doesn't do anything until 180* IAT's... especially if fuel quality is there. Who knows man.

    My torque is not low, it was the dyno. Very small dynojet. The car has made 530ftlbs on the load bearing dyno and then is fell due to wheel slip. Torque will be higher as long as the tires don't slip...

    I don't think I have enough timing to run 110 either. When I was running the URT, the car was falling on it's face until 23ish and I still don't think it was optimal.



    I am all but certain she'd go 150+ with the 2.93's and the small intercooler. Car is so much faster now with the 2.93 gear.
    I can't imagine it doesn't pull timing substantially earlier than that. Cars feel MUCH slower heat soaked than not, even in mild cases, and IAT is no where near that high.

    I was just saying relative to horsepower, torque was low. My car doesn't make very good torque on a dynojet either. My road dynos show 590 + ft-lb, while the dynojet shows 490 ft-lb.

    Either way, you've got head room.

    -Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    I can't imagine it doesn't pull timing substantially earlier than that. Cars feel MUCH slower heat soaked than not, even in mild cases, and IAT is no where near that high.

    I was just saying relative to horsepower, torque was low. My car doesn't make very good torque on a dynojet either. My road dynos show 590 + ft-lb, while the dynojet shows 490 ft-lb.

    Either way, you've got head room.

    -Mike
    I was not speaking literally. I was merely making a point... No one has posted the IAT tables nor has anyone shared any info... we all just assume arbitrarily. We all understand the effect, we just don't know at what temp or it's impact on fuel or timing. I wish I knew the significance and at what point. Ya know?

    The dynojet I went to is weird, it's really small and didn't load the turbo enough. There is another AWD DJ that is very nice. I believe its load bearing too. I may hit that eventually.
    Last edited by futureroadracer; 12-18-2012 at 11:48 PM.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    I can't imagine it doesn't pull timing substantially earlier than that. Cars feel MUCH slower heat soaked than not, even in mild cases, and IAT is no where near that high.

    I was just saying relative to horsepower, torque was low. My car doesn't make very good torque on a dynojet either. My road dynos show 590 + ft-lb, while the dynojet shows 490 ft-lb.

    Either way, you've got head room.

    -Mike
    I don't think I've ever said this before. But i <3 your car. i think you know how to have lots of fun with your car and beat the piss out of it.

    but Dynojet shows "comparable/standard" numbers.
    Use the "gear ratio" on a dyno jet run file. too see if the tires are blowing off on the dyno and load it up with weight to get them to stick so you can get some true comparable wtq numbers.


    Not saying your car doesnt make more torque then its showing. i just want to see how much you can lay on the rollers with perfect traction in comparsion to you dataloger.
    RK tunes

  18. #18
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    i read that obd 1 ecus dont pull timing with iat.

    Ecu pulls timing with coolant temp.

    is it true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmmrr View Post
    i read that obd 1 ecus dont pull timing with iat.

    Ecu pulls timing with coolant temp.

    is it true?
    That's way I understand. And, doesn't it adjust fueling by IAT.
    Maybe it is the other way around.

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  20. #20
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    Good luck today sir, hope we see some awesome news this evening!

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  21. #21
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    My buddy canceled on me. Sorry for the delay, I'll try and reschedule something for this week.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  22. #22
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    Ahhhh! what a tease! I'm awaiting the dyno results of your larger IC and Dadx2's 4" exhaust install to see If they both allow for big gains!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30kid89 View Post
    Ahhhh! what a tease! I'm awaiting the dyno results of your larger IC and Dadx2's 4" exhaust install to see If they both allow for big gains!
    I know man, I'm pretty bummed too.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




  24. #24
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    Nooooo!!! Oh well I am sure you will set it up soon.

    ~Ken~ '99 M coupe THE "original" TT Stage 3 - HTA3586R; 701 whp 672 wtq @ 26.5 psi ; NeverSell - CoupeCartel

  25. #25
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    Yeah, it sucks... mtf though.

    I do have some data though, so my boost controller has been reading 1.5-2.5psi high. So, when I've been figuring out my max boost pressure, I've just been using the profec's max boost recorded function. So, today, I figured I'd see if it's actually spiking etc. Sure enough, on low boost the gauge hits 17-17.5 and immediately settles to 15psi. This is pretty significant because my 636whp pull was at 22psi off the boost controller. So, in reality, I probably made that number @ 20psi or so... (with the small intercooler)

    I suspected this was happening though, since the boost pressure wasn't matching my buddy's dyno. So, now I have to adjust the EBC settings and turn the boost to a true 22psi... Luckily I just ordered a 0-30psi boost gauge, which should make targeting boost pressure easier.

    I'm pretty excited since my WHP/PSI numbers have been off...
    Last edited by futureroadracer; 12-15-2012 at 11:30 PM.
    OLD
    E30

    636whp
    1/4 mile: 10.91@144.38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_f7fUVqblI

    NEW BUILD
    335d

    520whp
    635wtq
    120.51mph trap speed




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