I've searched this forum extensively for an answer, but there doesn't seem to be one. Most threads regarding these swaps are a few years old so it's time to bring this subject up again.
Basically I'd like to find out if anyone has come across some solid advice regarding engine management in a swapped V8 or V10 motor. It's going into an E36 but that doesn't matter. The only bit of info I've found on this forum is some advice to use a MegaSquirt 3 Extra. However, that advice is pretty useless seeing as it's coming from someone performing an S54 E36 swap. I need solid info before attempting to do this, the last thing I want is to finish up with one of those two engines in my car which won't start or run properly.
I'm looking for constructive answers regarding this specific subject, no "get an LSX" or "whack a blower onto your engine" please.
Get an LS2/3 and enjoy easy, cheap, reliable power and tq. That conversion is very well documented and you can get a lot of quick help. Parts are easily available and are not expensive. Additional power down the road is very easy and relatively cheap.
The S65/85 is a cool sounding swap, but when you look at it realistically, the information on it is very limitted and not well documented. You will need to go through hell to find every bit of info you need (as you've already seen by searching). The price of conversion parts and maintenace parts is stupid expensive. Additional power is not easy, very limitted and very expensive.
Now it is up to you to decide what you want, realistically can achive mecanicaly/electronicaly and financially. Also looking ahead at future upgrades and maintenance.
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- 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
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Good luck finding solid info. People don't do it because its complicated, and expensive, and ultimately fairly limited in aftermarket modifications. If you're set on doing this, be prepared to blaze your own trail, or shell out some green backs. What is the point of doing an overlycomplicated and expensive engine swap when cheaper and arguably better options exist? Exclusivity? Try telling that to the Guy that is faster than you! I also cringe at the thought of performing ANY maintenance/repair on a V10 in an e36, cause you know its gonna be cramped!
Personally, using megasquirt makes sense for management, at least it solves one half of the equation...because at least it is know what it takes for megasquirt to work, and make and engine work. There likely not alot of s65/85 engines being managed with something besides the factory ecu. Find out what the guys that have the cars are tuning/racing with...look at AEM, haltech, and the other big names in standalone.....otherwise its going to be chasing wires and trying to satisfy the stock computer.
Last edited by hefftone; 11-27-2011 at 10:22 AM. Reason: to be more constructive
Didn't want to go into an LSX debate but since you're actually a guy who's done it (I'm well aware of your cars, spent a lot of time reading about them) I owe you my side of the argument.
The car in my hands is a tool to get good lap times and enjoy myself. A tool needs to be precise and responsive which sadly from my limited experience the LS1 isn't (don't know about LS2 or LS3). Secondly, the LS engine puts me at a massive disadvantage because I'll be competing against Ferraris, Lambos and R8's with which I don't stand a chance against in the cornerns. An S65 puts me at an advantage since it's the most powerful engine that fits in the below 4L category. The S85 is a different matter - it's been my dream to own a V10 powered car and there's nothing more to it than that.
The argument about cost doesn't apply to where I live. I don't want to go into much detail, but the cost of purchasing and mechanically swapping an S65 into an E36 is a lot cheaper than doing an LS2. It's the electronics that could make things very complicated and expensive.
I've been reading about the MS and it seems to be an option, very cheap too. There's one or two people on their forum who got the S65 engine to work with that ECU but not without problems, some were related to the Vanos system and some to the integrated coil/knock sensors. Also finding someone who would tune the Vanos system could be a tall order. This is why I'd prefer to retain stock management. Transferring some sensors, modules and a harness into the E36 isn't a big deal as long as you know what needs to be done. If however you don't, the end result could mean that a lot of money will be wasted on purchasing various systems off the E90 which could later turn out not to have helped in getting out of limp mode.
If you have to come here to ask about engine management for S65 or S85 engines, then you do not have what it takes to do such a swap.
That said, Pectel SQ6 will run those engines. Of course the ECU costs as much as your low mileage LS2
2003 M5 LSx l 6 Spd Manual l 4.10 LSD
Build Thread
The chassis must always be regarded as a means to an end and never as an end itself
Of course I don't have what it takes. I pay people to do it for me. But I can imagine problems will appear the moment this engine has to be started. I'd prefer to base my decision on valid information and the experience of people who have done it rather than on being told by the garage that it can easily be done. Such reassurance won't help when we hit a wall in a few months.
Pro-Efi will run it as well, or AEM Stand alone.
He's from Poland, they can build anything and everything over there.
2003 M5 LSx l 6 Spd Manual l 4.10 LSD
Build Thread
The chassis must always be regarded as a means to an end and never as an end itself
You can also look into the Bosch management that the M3 GT4 and Grand-Am GS M3's use, it is not cheap, but if you are doing an S65, you wanna do it proper. Or motec. Either way, it is doubtful that you will need much more than a standalone, and a digital dash to make the engine work, if it will fit between the fenders, and get the oiling system correct. I like the idea, just don't have the means to make it work personally
1993 BMW 325i-Track/1999 540i/6- Driver
I'm surprised you haven't run across us yet. I have sent an email about sponsoring this forum but I haven't heard back yet, so I don't want to step on any vendor's toes. But I have done more than a dozen of these so far, in E30's, E36, E46 and E92 chassis. The swap kit we've developed controls all the stock functions including 4 cam VANOS, dual drive by wire, stock engine management sensors, ability to do traction control, stock E46/E92 ABS integration and more. They are quite a few street & race cars with this system now.Basically I'd like to find out if anyone has come across some solid advice regarding [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]engine[/COLOR][/COLOR] management in a swapped V8 or V10 [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]motor[/COLOR][/COLOR]. It's going into an E36 but that doesn't matter. .
Quite the opposite is true actually. The S85/S65 is so integrated with the chassis its very difficult and somewhat impractical to use stock engine management. This is why I've done so many of our Pectel-based engine management system "swap kits."There likely not alot of s65/85 engines being managed with something besides the factory ecu. Find out what the guys that have the cars are tuning/racing with...look at AEM, haltech, and the other big names in standalone.....otherwise its going to be chasing wires and trying to satisfy the stock computer.
I've actually tuned a few of these for Grand Am - was on the dyno with Bullet Performance's E92 on Friday. Actually, the Bosch management isn't really well suited for street car use; in fact Turner Motorsports actually used the Pectel system for on a track cars we did for them. Another major Grand AM team just signed up to use the system as well for their customer track cars. For E30's and E36's, the kit plugs directly into the stock vehicle harness for seamless integration - the dash, stock ignition key and everything else works 100%. No need for a digital dash or anything else.You can also look into the Bosch management that the M3 GT4 and Grand-Am GS [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue ! important]M3's[/COLOR][/COLOR] use, it is not cheap, but if you are doing an S65, you wanna do it proper. Or motec. Either way, it is doubtful that you will need much more than a standalone, and a digital dash to make [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]the [COLOR=blue !important]engine[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] work, if it will fit between the fenders, and get the oiling system correct. I like the idea, just don't have the means to make it work personally
Here are some links to a few of the projects we've done.
http://www.europeancarweb.com/featur...3/viewall.html
http://www.eurotuner.com/featuredveh...35i/index.html
http://www.apexspeedtech.com/car-planet-racings-e92-m3-with-pectel-sq6-ecu-by-apex-speed-technology
Last edited by neelvasavada; 11-27-2011 at 01:45 PM.
Would your kit be what was used on the Track Culture E46 M3 V10? They used some sort of plug and play solution based on the Pectel ECU. After doing some basic research I found the price for that kit and was completely blown away. Isn't it around $20k?
you would be surprised that a completely custom, plug & play high end aftermarket ECU system is around 20k? that sounds about where I would expect it - seeing how the nice grade "bare" management kits start at 5k and go up. professionals have overhead.
the simple solution is to pull the systems over from the donor car and hide/integrate them - the big ones being the key, transponder & security box, running the analog gauges of an e36 from a CAN system is going to require converters but wouldn't be as expensive as a custom stand alone like proposed (not that they aren't beautiful systems, you just need a lot of car and deep pockets to make it worthwhile.)
in general it would be do able with a whole donor car and a lot of time and love for wiring, that would also be the lowest cost. the next lowest cost way to do it would be the donor motor run on any system that can manage 4 cam variable valve timing done by yourself, costs go up from there depending on how much you involve other people/systems
Seeing as it's professional equipment - no. But like you say, you need a lot of car to justify purchasing such a management system. I've been trying to get hold of an ETM for the E90 to understand what kind of inputs and outputs the stock DME has but to no avail yet.
This thread has already been really helpful, its shed some new light on the matter. Definitely need to go standalone with one of these engines. There's quite a lot of info on an MS3 run S65 in Italy and the tuner highly recommends that ECU despite some initial teething problems. The ECU supports 4 VVT mechanisms.
I'll pick this matter up again after the season is over, still got a few special stages to attend to this year. Not planning on removing the 6-pot until those are over. It's good to know that there are more people out there who know about these swaps than I was lead to believe.
this forum is a great place to come and get a lot of bad information and negativity, along with some good information. A lot of guys on here just repeat what they've been told before and preach it like the gospel truth. don't get discouraged.
p.s. love the 6-spd 7 series.
coming soon, S54's for everything....
I was quoted about $6500 to have an SQ6 setup for my S62 project...
That's FAR from being a fully researched "kit", however.
I can understand that displacement of an LSx would put you in different class at the track, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying it is not precise or not responsive.
I did not notice initially that you are not from US, so the support for parts, etc would be more difficult for you, but it looks like you set yourself on S65 no matter what anyway. So good luck and I would love to see your project on here.
- 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
- 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
- 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)
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- 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)
I have already sent emails about being a vendor; I respect forums and their vendors and won't post links to my website, products etc on the forum until I've reached vendor status. I should be a bit more careful about prices; until I hear back on vendor status I will only post general ranges, thank you.Weren't you literally arguing with me on another forum that your systems are LESS than $5000. You should probably seek vendorship status here if you wish to sell and list prices.
Yes, the system can be had for less than $5k if you want to do your own harnessing. I tell people typical prices; not prices for systems without basics like fly-by-wire or VANOS working, or without widebands (which I consider critical) or fully built harnesses. Please feel free to contact me off the forum or on the other forum that I do support and I'd be happy to give you an item by item price breakdown.
The S65's have put out between 360-400hp depending on the dyno, intake and exhaust systems. the S85's have done between 410-550, but we had some that were pretty hot-rodded with stroker kits, big intakes, etc. But the thing that I'm most proud of is the drivability. One of our customers has a V10 M6 with a stock ECU & drivetrain; the Pectel system actual started, idled and drove better - granted we weren't saddled with emissions concerns.That's actually quite acceptable. What kind of power outputs do the base maps have for the S65 and S85?
The electrician would be me! Any OBDII motor is a pain to swap; the only reason the domestic market is easy is that GM, Ford and Chrysler have recognized this is a market and released the tools/ECUs to make it simple.why not just bring the car to an electrictian
loath the ls to bmw swap. hate it.
The kits been available for well over a year and we've had many, many in the field. Several cars have been in magazines, at least one is approaching 10,000 miles on it. Another finished top-10 at the 25 Hours of Thunderhill in its debut.there is a e36 - s85 conversion going on here in Aust that ive had some input to - not much - just some. Is this "kit" now available. We have the S85, 7spd DSG, and e36 chasis ready to go and undertaking fabricating works. Having a sorted engine management solution would be most benificial.
One big problem - the kit won't work with DSG. Hacking the DSG controller is a big effort that just isn't worth it to most in the end - you can install a real sequential with paddleshift for less.
Hmmh.. good info on the ECU-side.
What about gearbox, can somebody confirm that the M3 6-speed manual gearbox bolts on to S85?
The lack of availability in terms of parts is a slight inconvenience, true.
I've by no means settled for the S65 yet since this project will be taken up in about a months' time, it just seems to be perfectly suited for this application. With regard to the lack of responsiveness of the LS1: I'm currently using a S50 motor with Schrick cams, high compression pistons, a different airbox, lightweight flywheel and custom mapping and the engine is an absolute screamer. There's no throttle delay at all, you touch the loud pedal and get an instant reaction. While the LS1 I had the chance to try out was really torquey once it got going, it did not feel responsive enough when you blipped the throttle. In other words, I found it a bit "lumpy" in relation to what I'm used to. Still an exciting engine, just didn't do it for me. After reading one of your writeups, I was seriously considering an LS2 or LS3, in terms of straight line performance it's going to beat the S65 any day and I like the simplicity and crudeness of the engine. I'm just not sold on the idea, would need to get hold of a Vette or GTO and drive it for a bit. And that is not going to happen unfortunately.
We use an M6 6-speed manual.What about gearbox, can somebody confirm that the M3 6-speed manual gearbox bolts on to S85?
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e24 89 635csi - maybe a DD?
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I've owned a lot of different cars including s50 swapped e30 with light weight flywheel and other mods, e46 M3 with Dinnan S2 package, etc. And it wasn't until I owned 07 LS2 Vette that I committed to do my first LS1 swap. Sure the BMW engine is higher revving and "feels" more responsive, but it only feels that way because you see RPMs shoot through the roof, feeling of variable valve timing, engine screams (with beautiful sound btw. I still love the way my 328 sings above 4k). But in reality the LS engine produces enough power and most importantly torque that it does not need all that screaming, etc.
I know it might not be very easy, but if you get a chance to try these engines a little more to get a better feel for them and have another look. If you will have a chance, try to distinguish between the engine characteristics and the chassis that this engine is in, as it (chassis) makes all the difference in the world.
When I take my LS1 swapped car to a track day, I couldn't ask for a better engine/chassis combination. Plenty of torque from down low to up top significantly reduces amount of shifting that needs to be done. The compliment of handling of e36 chassis is razor sharp. To me personally, it is a beautiful thing producing all that power without the need to scream.
Now I feel like I'm trying to sell LS lol. I'm really not. Just trying to show how I got to my decision.
In any case, any engine you choose will be a significant increase in power and be a super fun car to drive around the track!
Last edited by bimerok; 11-28-2011 at 08:02 PM.
- 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
- 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
- 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)
- 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
- 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)
Driving a stock engine with factory 30# flywheel? That's not exactly a fair comparison...
The single throttle intake manifold is always going to give soggier throttle response than the throttle per cylinder intake. How much of that razor edged response that your S50 has would you want with double or close to triple the torque on hand?
The flywheel weight makes a huge difference as well. If you put a Tilton on an LS engine, you'll think the S50 has the throttle response of a lawn mower.
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