E30 M10 Turbo on E85; soon to be on Methanol & who knows what else...

[hsvturbo]

Hey guys, I got my little e30, m10 turbo up and running last year running on e85 and an ebay turbo and wanted to post were I am at as far as performance and to update you on a methanol injection system I have been installing over the winter.

First off, I will list last years set up:

Engine: M10, 1.8L
Turbo: T3, internal waste gate, .60 a/r cold, .58 a/r hot side
Exhaust manifold: HSVTurbo bottom mount
2 1/2” exhaust with dyno max muffler
Converted to e85 with 24 lb/hr injectors
four; 24 lb/hr secondary injectors operating off boost switches
255 Walbro inline fuel pump.
adjustable fuel reg
Centerforce dual friction clutch/pressure plate
Innovate LC-1 with gage
Modified distributor to incorporate anti-lag.
(Stock engine with exception of Elring HG and 12.9 grade head bolts.)
(Stock ECU)

The above mods was good for 248.5 whp / 253 lb-ft @ 15.5 lbs boost

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F69zZwSy5TQ[/ame]

Bumping boost up to 17.5 lbs, managed a 8.29 second @ 89.7 mph run down the 1/8 mile on street tires, (2.04 sec 0-60 ft time).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf_LL5scdOY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]


I got the turbo, charge pipes, fuel pump and fuel regulator & boost switches off ebay. One item that I got off ebay, which I did not have success with, was a manual boost controller. What I found out was, when I raised my boost pressure up, the boost controller caused my boost to fluctuate as seen in the dyno video. After the dyno run, I removed it and now my boost pressure is steady.

My AFR is somewhat complicated, because when I bought the LC1 and Gauge, I didn't know that the Gauge would always be reading Gasoline Lambda 1 at 14.7. So I have to use a special decoder ring to get to E85 AFR. What I try and stay between with E85 is 6.98 to 7.51 AFR under boost. Which translates to 140% & 130% richer then Stoichiometric (9.765 @ E85). So going by the gauge I try to stay between 10.5 & 11.3 under boost.

I do my own tuning, which is pretty simple on my car. When I increase boost, I add more fuel by turning on another injector on my secondary injection system, and/or increase fuel pressure. It has worked good so far. Also when I increase boost, I always try to stay on the rich side and then lean her down if needed.

So this was my system for 2010. The problem I had was not being able to add enough fuel to run a higher boost level. On my last outing at the drags with my boost level at 17.5 psi, I adjusted the fuel pressure up to 85 psi, which under boost was fine, but you can only imagine how rich the car was idling around at the drag strip. So that is the reason I am adding an additional fuel source, so why not go with about 170 lb/hr methanol kit!



So for the 2011 season, I am adding a Methanol kit to the car, which includes:
5 Gallon fuel cell
3/8” fuel hose
Walbro 255 pump
3/8” Al tubing
40 micron filter
Ebay regulator
Nitrous Solenoid Valve / Manifold
4 injector nozzles 1/8” npt
¼” Aluminum tubing return line

The 84 and 85 m10 cylinder head has a perfect location to install the methanol injectors, cell phone photo:


This is where I am at right now on the install, more to come.

[familyMAN]

Your wideband should still read correct even though stoich is different for gas and E85. It should still read 14.7 for stoich on E85.

If the 10.x is correct, you would pick up quite a bit of power leaning it out to 11-12.

[hsvturbo]

Your wideband should still read correct even though stoich is different for gas and E85. It should still read 14.7 for stoich on E85.

If the 10.x is correct, you would pick up quite a bit of power leaning it out to 11-12.

I've set the LC-1 to e85, but the gauge is still set up to read 14.7 for Lambda = 1. So yes, as far as I know, the gauge only reads to gasoline.

Personnally, I think the car runs better on the rich side. No hard data on this, but when I have leanered her down, she falls flat. Who knows, maybe I should have spent the extra $40 on the dyno run to obtain the air fuel ratio and then compare it with my gage... next time.

[Ted B]

There's nothing much to be gained by injecting methanol on top of E85 here. Already, E85 has sufficient octane to handle absolutely anything you can throw at it with your present setup. All the methanol system will do is add expense, complexity, and an additional element that can fail (and bring everything else down with it).

Just FYI.

[zRhys]

I agree with Ted B especially since you think it's running rich. I would explore whether you are getting enough timing advance to take advantage of the e85.

[turbo325ii]

I want full 1/4 mile times... None of this weak 1/8 mile stuff!!! Nobody knows what it means lol.

[hsvturbo]

I want full 1/4 mile times... None of this weak 1/8 mile stuff!!! Nobody knows what it means lol.

Totally agree and will be making a trip down south to Steele, AL in the near future.

It's it funny that other folks seem to know more about my car and my tune then me? I'll keep it rich, thank you very much, and it's to late, she has one hit on Methanol, and I ain't looking back!

[coolcarlski]

Go with E85 and turn the boost up dude. Ted B is right on about the E85 and wasting time with the methanol.

[turbo325ii]

Go with E85 and turn the boost up dude. Ted B is right on about the E85 and wasting time with the methanol.

READ! He is already running e85.

[hsvturbo]

I just want to make it clear, the Methanol system is a secondary fuel source used only under boost conditions to fix a problem I had last year. After the first hit yesterday, problem solved, a nice fat afr at 18 lbs of boost. More to come.

[hsvturbo]

Yesterday I hit the drag strip and made a couple of runs with the new methanol injection system. Best time was a 8.30 seconds which is ~.01 seconds slower then last years best without the methanol kit. Good news is that I had more then enough fuel which was the main goal of my methanol kit and therefore I can now increase my boost level.

Also, last years 8.29 second pass was accomplished without the tail pipe/muffler on. Yesterday's pass was with the full exhaust system on, not sure how much power this is eating up but is is what it is. All in all a productive day as well as learning a new system/tune for the car. Best part about it is that I can run this set up on the street unlike last years tune at 17.5 psi boost. More to come as I am already planing on changing up my methanol kit system to make it more efficient/effective as time and funds permit.

[scooter3k]

Looks fun! I <3 e30s! When do you hit peak boost on your m10?

[BoostedE21]

Great thread! I current have my M10 boosted and about the same numbers and currently building a fully builty M10 (forged pistons, valves, dbl valve springs, GT2871R turbo etc etc) and I have been toying with the idea of installing meth on it as well.

Also, what does it take to which to E85? Anything special, like seals, injectors etc etc?

Good luck with the rest and keep us posted, I will be hitting you up when I'm ready for that park for some advise.

[hsvturbo]

Looks fun! I <3 e30s! When do you hit peak boost on your m10?

It has been fun so far. It has about 12 lbs at 4000 rpm. Full boost about 4500 and I shift at about 6500. so I do have a short power band.

Great thread! I current have my M10 boosted and about the same numbers and currently building a fully builty M10 (forged pistons, valves, dbl valve springs, GT2871R turbo etc etc) and I have been toying with the idea of installing meth on it as well.

Also, what does it take to which to E85? Anything special, like seals, injectors etc etc?

Good luck with the rest and keep us posted, I will be hitting you up when I'm ready for that park for some advise.

A GT2871R! That's good for 400+ hp isn't it? That will be fun. I believe methanol can be a great benefit with FI engines. I think where most problems come in is obviously when you heat the alcohol to high and the stuff autoignites in the combustion chamber. Thats not a good day. So I run it nice and fat.

As far as the switch over to e85, All i did was add a walbro 255 inline with my stock fuel line and add 24lb/hr injectors. Nothing else. I read on the web some place that most cars from ~1985 on had updated seals to handle the ethanol, so I didn't change a thing and went for it.

I did notice that when I had my intake manifold off while installing the methanol system, the intake runners below each injector had a thin gooey spot. It could of been crud from 200k miles of normal wear and tear, or it was remnants of the fuel line breaking down, which I tend to believe was happening. So I replaced most of the stock fuel line with some Buna-PVC blend hose. We will see if this works... and yes I will keep everyone updated.

[whatt18yahoo]

i run ~1.5-2 bar on my setup with e85 and i have the same lc-1 (read comi-bastard issue) as you do. and i target 13.5 (gauge) .9-1.0 lamda (in tuner studio) on boost.

i also have injector dynamics 2000cc injectors twin walbro 255 and an addditional in tank fuel pump (these are all hooked up using 3 ports from the tank, the walbros are external and the factory pump uses it's stock everything everything goes into the stock filter via (2) -6 y NOS connectors with barbed fittings) i also use 3 hose clamps on each fitting just in case

the factory pump is strictly for the turbo timer but still runs when engine is on
the walbros are on a toggle switch

i never touch my fuel regulator and it's set at 53psi at idle.

i've never had issues like you're talking about.

[5mall5nail5]

i run ~1.5-2 bar on my setup with e85 and i have the same lc-1 (read comi-bastard issue) as you do. and i target 13.5 (gauge) .9-1.0 lamda (in tuner studio) on boost.

i also have injector dynamics 2000cc injectors twin walbro 255 and an addditional in tank fuel pump (these are all hooked up using 3 ports from the tank, the walbros are external and the factory pump uses it's stock everything everything goes into the stock filter via (2) -6 y NOS connectors with barbed fittings) i also use 3 hose clamps on each fitting just in case

the factory pump is strictly for the turbo timer but still runs when engine is on
the walbros are on a toggle switch

i never touch my fuel regulator and it's set at 53psi at idle.

i've never had issues like you're talking about.

pics of ID 2000s on your car plz

vidz of 30 psi as well

[Ted B]

... and i target 13.5 (gauge) .9-1.0 lamda (in tuner studio) on boost.

What's the reasoning behind this?

[scooter3k]

Seriously 2000cc Jesus that's huge!

[5mall5nail5]

Seriously 2000cc Jesus that's huge!

If you saw this build you would doubt he has $1200 injectors in it.

[BoostedE21]

It has been fun so far. It has about 12 lbs at 4000 rpm. Full boost about 4500 and I shift at about 6500. so I do have a short power band.



A GT2871R! That's good for 400+ hp isn't it? That will be fun. I believe methanol can be a great benefit with FI engines. I think where most problems come in is obviously when you heat the alcohol to high and the stuff autoignites in the combustion chamber. Thats not a good day. So I run it nice and fat.

As far as the switch over to e85, All i did was add a walbro 255 inline with my stock fuel line and add 24lb/hr injectors. Nothing else. I read on the web some place that most cars from ~1985 on had updated seals to handle the ethanol, so I didn't change a thing and went for it.

I did notice that when I had my intake manifold off while installing the methanol system, the intake runners below each injector had a thin gooey spot. It could of been crud from 200k miles of normal wear and tear, or it was remnants of the fuel line breaking down, which I tend to believe was happening. So I replaced most of the stock fuel line with some Buna-PVC blend hose. We will see if this works... and yes I will keep everyone updated.

Yeah my goal is like 300-325 whp on 18-20psi.

I did read about the seals and such, but since I have an older M10 then yours what seals would work and where could one obtain them? I would love to get them since the spare motor is still apart and just have it ready for the E85. Also, where did you get your fuel lines.

[hsvturbo]

... twin walbro 255 and an addditional in tank fuel pump (these are all hooked up using 3 ports from the tank, the walbros are external and the factory pump uses it's stock everything everything goes into the stock filter via (2) -6 y NOS connectors with barbed fittings) i also use 3 hose clamps on each fitting just in case

i've never had issues like you're talking about.

I would think your stock filter could be a bottle neck to your fuel system, but maybe not.

"Issues" ??? I don't have any fuel issues now. You have two walbros, I now have two walbros. You have an in tank pump. My oem in tank pump is still working.

You should update your build thread. You have peeked a whole bunch of interest. Is the below your thread for this car?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1169079

Yeah my goal is like 300-325 whp on 18-20psi.

I did read about the seals and such, but since I have an older M10 then yours what seals would work and where could one obtain them? I would love to get them since the spare motor is still apart and just have it ready for the E85. Also, where did you get your fuel lines.

Seals: I always wondered what seals they were talking about. I know there is a static o-ring seal on the tank/pump cover on my e30. In the fuel pumps and electronic injectors would be more, I am assuming, dynamic I guess, but you couldn't change those. So to answer your question; pulling out my Parker O-ring Handbook, O-rings that operate "Satisfactory" in Gasoline and Ethanol are the following:
-Fluorosilicone FVMQ
-Perfluoroelesomer FFKM
-Hifluor
So good luck on that.

Hose: What I took as seals was fuel hose. I guess Hose is what I see and can change in my car. I have yet to find any hose that are made of the above. I wonder what the flex fuel auto's use for hose or do they have hose anymore? So what I bought was some Buna-N hose from mcmaster-carr, pn: 5633k22. It's cheap, $1.68/ft. However, Buna N has a rating of 3 (sometimes OK for Static Seals), in the Parker handbook for ethanol compatibility. Go figure. So it would be great to know a better hose to use. (Steal Braided Teflon would be the best, but out of my $ range)

For methanol, easy, EPDM hose from mcmaster, pn: 5405k5 at $.86/ft.

[whatt18yahoo]

What's the reasoning behind this?

you seem to have some knowledge of stoichiometric values. for e85 it's 9.8 which = lambda 1.0 so if your gauge still thinks lambda =1.0 = 14.7 just target 14.7

think of it as 14.7 is the new 9.8

in your tuner software lambda will still be 1.0 megasquirt is still unable to recognize the different values of e85 vs gas but your o2 knows lambda so just work off that

Yeah my goal is like 300-325 whp on 18-20psi.

I did read about the seals and such, but since I have an older M10 then yours what seals would work and where could one obtain them? I would love to get them since the spare motor is still apart and just have it ready for the E85. Also, where did you get your fuel lines.

yeah i read crap about e85 eating seals and lines and all kinds of crap

the problem was that e85 is one of the most powerful cleansers on the market so if you have an old fuel line/o ring/ seal etc and it's gummy e85 will clean all of the gum out of it but if the gum is all the structural integrity of the line guess why it went bad?

new fuel lines from autozone or bmw work just fine

I would think your stock filter could be a bottle neck to your fuel system, but maybe not.

"Issues" ??? I don't have any fuel issues now. You have two walbros, I now have two walbros. You have an in tank pump. My oem in tank pump is still working.

You should update your build thread. You have peeked a whole bunch of interest. Is the below your thread for this car?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1169079





Seals: I always wondered what seals they were talking about. I know there is a static o-ring seal on the tank/pump cover on my e30. In the fuel pumps and electronic injectors would be more, I am assuming, dynamic I guess, but you couldn't change those. So to answer your question; pulling out my Parker O-ring Handbook, O-rings that operate "Satisfactory" in Gasoline and Ethanol are the following:
-Fluorosilicone FVMQ
-Perfluoroelesomer FFKM
-Hifluor
So good luck on that.

Hose: What I took as seals was fuel hose. I guess Hose is what I see and can change in my car. I have yet to find any hose that are made of the above. I wonder what the flex fuel auto's use for hose or do they have hose anymore? So what I bought was some Buna-N hose from mcmaster-carr, pn: 5633k22. It's cheap, $1.68/ft. However, Buna N has a rating of 3 (sometimes OK for Static Seals), in the Parker handbook for ethanol compatibility. Go figure. So it would be great to know a better hose to use. (Steal Braided Teflon would be the best, but out of my $ range)

For methanol, easy, EPDM hose from mcmaster, pn: 5405k5 at $.86/ft.

the factory filter works just fine it's main restriction is pressure not flow

frankly i don't have a build thread that is current anymore.

i got sick of people saying i was doing it wrong, telling me to abandon my m20, telling me whatever.

i have what i have no more pics no more vids if you want to see it come out to indiana and you can see for yourself

[Ted B]

you seem to have some knowledge of stoichiometric values. for e85 it's 9.8 which = lambda 1.0 so if your gauge still thinks lambda =1.0 = 14.7 just target 14.7

think of it as 14.7 is the new 9.8

If you're running your engine under load at an indicated 13.5 AFR on the gauge, that correlates to 0.92 lambda, which means you are clearly running too lean regardless of whether you are using E85 or gasoline.

With gasoline, RBT (Rich Best Torque) occurs around 0.85 lambda, and LBT (Lean Best Torque) is ~0.9. With 100% Ethanol, RBT and LBT correlate to approximately 0.71 and 0.87 respectively. With E85, those values are approximately the same. This equates to an indicated 10.4 - 12.8 respectively. Obviously, you are well outside of that range, and far away the safe end of it.

FYI

[5mall5nail5]

Can you show how the ID2000s fit in the M20 manifold? Thanks.

[hsvturbo]

OK, so back to my build.....

Completed a project for my car this weekend. Removed the original solenoid / manifold/ tubing and replaced it with below:


I mounted two solenoids to a fuel rail. Then I added two very short tubes to the injector nozzles from the "t's", thereby reducing the time delay I had getting the methanol to the engine. Turned up the boost to 19 lbs and made one hit after church. Much better fuel control for my system, AFR from 9.3 to 11.6. Hoping to hit the drags this weekend if the weather holds out....