HANs VS. DefNder

[///M3Augy]

Will be club racing this upcoming season and I am starting to research what I need for neck restraints. I usually see/hear people talk about the HANs brand devices. I stumbled upon a thread with DefNder gear in it and I have a few questions.

The DefNder seems better: its cheaper and provides lateral protection compared to the HANs Sport. What am I missing?

Is there any reason to not go with the DefNder?

Also anyone in the MI area have either a HANs or DefNder I can try before purchasing? I really want to get in and out of the car with both on to see how they are, and also feel how comfortable each are when strapped down.

Again, I have no experience with either of these neck restraints so all comments are welcome.

[flink]

I have a defNder.

- The additional tethers for lateral support seem like a good idea. Whether they are actually beneficial in testing is another matter. You would be justified in asking the vendor and manufacturer to provide data substantiating any claims they make about those tethers. Perhaps that data is already available and I haven't seen it.

- Unlike HANS, defNders have hooks over the shoulders to retain the shoulder harness straps. These probably help prevent the harness coming adrift in an impact (would be nice to see proof of this also). The hooks permit the use of 3" belts. OTOH the hooks do tend to catch on the buckles, impeding egress. On my todo list is coming up with some scheme with bungy cords to pull those things out of the way (I tried once and it didn't work).

- The defNder has a slide at the rear to permit the tethers to move laterally, so you can turn your head. My slide has quite a bit of resistance, making it irritating/distracting to turn the head. OTOH a buddy who also has a defNder used mine and complained about it, said his didn't do that. This has turned out not to be a problem in practice - I set the tethers as short as possible so I can just turn far enough to use the mirrors, and I have no need for the tether-sliding feature.

- The defNder just fits inside my Recaro SPG Pro Hans halo seat. If it was a few mm wider, it would be a PITA to wedge the thing inside there. So if you have a halo seat, beware of this possible fitment issue.

- There are a couple of non-critical screws at the rear of the defNder which came loose, and one got lost. Not a big problem, but if you're getting a defNder I'd recommend loctiting all the fasteners and checking their tightness.

Overall I'm happy with the defNder.

[RangerGress]

You should also look at the Safety Solutions R3. I've not tried the Defnder, but I like the R3 design better than the HANS. The big piece of plastic behind my head annoyed me, and the HANS is a little trickier with shoulder straps.

[99MPower]

Got a friend who lives close to Gingerman. Not sure where you are located, but get in touch with me on AIM and maybe I can get you in touch with him

good friend is in the same position and made a very nice thread on our chicago euro forum, about comparing all three HNRs

http://www.euroteknik.com/forum/trac...solutions.html

[bmellott]

I chose the R3 because I instruct and it works with any belt system i.e. 3 pt, 4 etc.

Currently my wife Lisa is considering such a safety type device, she is leaning towards the HANS, as, 1.) she Never rides - severe motion sickness only belt system in our car 2.) She likes that idea of less weigth etc when she has it on outside the car.

I'll have to go update my driver belt to a 2inch to make it proper

[Spec3HOR]

I proper head restraint seat will do more for you laterally than any head/neck restraint. And I hated taking on and off the DefNder. I tested both back to back with helmets in a seat and came away getting the HANS.

And take this how you will but my friend that works at one of those large safety distributors has never had a hans come broken in, but has had a DefNder come in completely broken off where the collars are. (could have been user error)

[flink]

good friend is in the same position and made a very nice thread on our chicago euro forum, about comparing all three HNRs

http://www.euroteknik.com/forum/trac...solutions.html

Interesting. That thread links to http://www.isaacdirect.com/index.html who make a pretty different system. It appears to use little shock-absorbers, but the photographs are so bad I can't really determine how the thing works

They offer this crash test video: http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg in which the HANS product flat out failed - the harness (which looks pretty loose) slipped off the restraint.

[scottbm3]

Interesting. That thread links to http://www.isaacdirect.com/index.html who make a pretty different system. It appears to use little shock-absorbers, but the photographs are so bad I can't really determine how the thing works

They offer this crash test video: http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg in which the HANS product flat out failed - the harness (which looks pretty loose) slipped off the restraint.

-Scott B.

[kishg]

lol@canoworms..

I have had a defnder since they came out in 2009. originally had the lime green one and now the slightly updated black one. I really like it. No issues whatsoever. I got it due to the better side impact numbers. Talk to Linda@ApexPerformance if you are thinking of getting one.

[snk328is]

I personally got the DefNder because it seemed like the lesser of the evils that is SFI 38.1 HNR systems.

In a whole season of racing, it has not failed me with regards to structural integrity and I'm happy with the product. I have not put it to the ultimate test, but I really don't want to find out either. I was also impressed with the whole kit in general when I first received it. It comes with a case and very good instructions printed in color and laminated. I can snap some pics and post it later if anybody is interested.

On the political side of things, this topic is indeed a big ol' can of worms (hey Scott, is that your favorite pic or what? I've now seen it in two forums ) and ultimately you have to decide if the risks you take by going with any SFI 38.1 certified HNR is worth the joy you get out of racing with the group you want to race with. I started racing with NASA Midwest last year to see what it was like and quickly decided it was much more fun than SCCA so I had to get an SFI 38.1 HNR to participate.

I'm still not sure why the HANS is such a great device when it needs other measures (halo seats, side nets) to ultimately keep the driver safe in all kinds of crashes, when another device with a superior design can accomplish the same results with less ancillaries. The "law" has already been written, however, and it's not looking good for non-SFI 38.1 compliant HNR vendors. (Interesting research point: look up the person/entity that wrote the SFI 38.1 requirements.)

If you really want to know, there are tons of threads between here and other forums (NASA forums, improvedtouring.com, etc.) that you can spend hours (maybe even days) reading through.

Just my 2 cents.

Nobu

[Michael9218]

Interesting. That thread links to http://www.isaacdirect.com/index.html who make a pretty different system. It appears to use little shock-absorbers, but the photographs are so bad I can't really determine how the thing works

They offer this crash test video: http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg in which the HANS product flat out failed - the harness (which looks pretty loose) slipped off the restraint.

I've always thought the Isaac was a good solution as well, but it's not SFI certified. Not because it didn't pass the crash tests, but because it requires two additional points of release to exit the vehicle.

I've been using the DefNder since January 2009 and like it fine. I've had no issue with it and felt it was more comfortable than the Hans due to the webbing conforming better to your collar bones and such, but that's a personal thing. It does however limit your side to side more than a Hans but this is only an issue in the paddock, not on track. I also agree with Scott (Ranger1) that the Safety Solutions device is very nice, tests well (better than Hans), and has the added bonus that it functions with any belts. Important if you're instructing but no so much if not.

I chose the DefNder because I thought it was a better solution than the Hans and was less expensive. I also wanted to support a manufacturer giving us another choice, and one that was an improvement as well. I was also concerned about side impact, an area the Hans is woefully deficient. If you believe what you read, "they" say the 30 degree frontal impact is the most deadly. In this impact the DefNder and Saftey Solutions outperformed the Hans by nearly double as you can see from the chart in the link.

http://racesafetydata.info/HNR.html

I am curious about the issue of halo seats and whether you need them if you have an HNR that provides side impact protection. I would think not, but haven't found testing data to support this.

[kishg]

yeah those threads can take days to read. for better or worse, the die is cast as you mention.

[bmellott]

-Scott B.

This could go with a can of Oil if I had one

[Kaizen81]

Anyone have opinions on emergency egress? DefNder appears larger than a HANS, but does it necessarily mean more difficult to egress?

I haven't tried either, but looking into buying a system too.

[kishg]

Anyone have opinions on emergency egress? DefNder appears larger than a HANS, but does it necessarily mean more difficult to egress?

I haven't tried either, but looking into buying a system too.

i doubt there's a significant difference.

[flink]

Anyone have opinions on emergency egress? DefNder appears larger than a HANS, but does it necessarily mean more difficult to egress?

You'll be OK. I have four-high NASCAR bars which make opening the door pointless. I have a halo seat. I'm a 200+ lb, 50+ y/o oldfart and I can just kinda toothpaste myself out of the car in an acceptable time. Take away just one of those impediments and you'd have no problem at all.

That being said, you can get tangled up, so you should practice a lot. I always pit the car fully strapped in, so each getting-out-of-the-car is a little emergency-egress practice session. The camera's always on at that time too - I should put together a grunting-heaving-and-swearing video

[das borgen]

I proper head restraint seat will do more for you laterally than any head/neck restraint. And I hated taking on and off the DefNder. I tested both back to back with helmets in a seat and came away getting the HANS.

And take this how you will but my friend that works at one of those large safety distributors has never had a hans come broken in, but has had a DefNder come in completely broken off where the collars are. (could have been user error)

you're not alone here
a m3forum member alleged some data he came came across about the DefNder being prone to breaking a lot..............I should bug him about it some because this is very relevant to my and your interests..............

so far, is the HANS the only HNR to have FIA-8858 certification?

[ApexPerf]

The defNder has stabilizer bars on top of the shoulder yolks that can sometimes interfere with the bottom of the helmet (if you have a short neck or a helmet with a lip on it). The defNder can be adjusted but I've had a couple come back in exchange for a Hans or Safety Solutions unit. It is nice though because you can change the layback of the device - you are driving a sedan one day, you can adjust the device to more upright seating. Driving a formula car style the following weekend, adjust the device to a more layback angle.

The other item to consider is tether replacement. The HANS tether replacements start at $40. The defNder has a more complex tether & webbing system. I do not know how much it will cost to replace all that material. Right now, most organizations require a HNR but are not checking the tethers. However, this is something they will probably start checking as more and more units are in use. The tethers will expire like harnessbelts.

Regarding using 2" harnessbelts, HANS does all their testing with 3" shoulder belts. If the belts are coming off the device, 9 times out of 10 the harnesses are not mounted properly. They should be mounted as close together as possible behind the seat (and preferrably on a rollbar) with no more than a 3" gap between the belts (closer is better).

Differences in testing:

SFI tests the neck tension. FIA tests the strength of the device. HANS and defNder are SFI. HANS is FIA. defNder is not FIA (I do not know if they did not submit the unit for testing or if it failed). SFI is recognized in the US, FIA more internationally.

We will work with customers to make sure they get the correct head & neck restraint for their needs. I've had customers order a unit, test fit in their car. Call with questions, and if needed, exchange the unit for something else (as long as the unit is not used and in new condition in original packaging).

Safety Solutions has a nice unit called the Hybrid Pro Rage. This unit can be used in all seating situations (not angle specific) and has a harness that is strapped to the body. Personally, I do not like the webbing around my chest (being a woman) but they can modify the unit to fit women properly by adjusting the location of the webbing in the chest area.

Feel free to contact us if you have questions - or visit your local HNR dealer for test fitting. The manufacturers have dealer listings by state so you can see if someone is in your area.

Hope ths helps!


And here's a link to our HNR page for review:

http://www.apexperformance.net/cartg...sp?category=29

[///M3Augy]

Thanks for the input guys. I think I found 2 shops within 45min of me to try out both the Hans and DfeNder. I don't think I will like the R3 considering my seats fit perfectly any extra spacing would be uncomfortable. Lots of good information flaoting around this thread I appreciate it!

[=BA=]

Regarding using 2" harnessbelts, HANS does all their testing with 3" shoulder belts. If the belts are coming off the device, 9 times out of 10 the harnesses are not mounted properly. They should be mounted as close together as possible behind the seat (and preferrably on a rollbar) with no more than a 3" gap between the belts (closer is better).

This is right, if shoulder straps are above a certain length you should even cross them behind the seat, Schroth recommends this. For example when they are mounted in the rear end of the cage. I use it with 3 inch harnasses and sliding is not a problem

Not sure why the others are not FIA certified, people in Europe have not even heard of defNder. Hans is all we get.

[Michael9218]

The other item to consider is tether replacement. The HANS tether replacements start at $40. The defNder has a more complex tether & webbing system. I do not know how much it will cost to replace all that material. Right now, most organizations require a HNR but are not checking the tethers. However, this is something they will probably start checking as more and more units are in use. The tethers will expire like harnessbelts.

Until SFI requires an expiration on HNR tethers, they are not required to be replaced unless date stamped. As far as I know, Hans is the only HNR manufacturer "voluntarily" date stamping their tethers, requiring replacement every two years. DefNder does not date stamp their tethers, so at this time they are not required to be replaced every two years. I did call DefNder on this and they did not anticipate SFI requiring this. They sell their tethers for $75 if you did need to replace them.

[kishg]

Until SFI requires an expiration on HNR tethers, they are not required to be replaced unless date stamped. As far as I know, Hans is the only HNR manufacturer "voluntarily" date stamping their tethers, requiring replacement every two years. DefNder does not date stamp their tethers, so at this time they are not required to be replaced every two years. I did call DefNder on this and they did not anticipate SFI requiring this. They sell their tethers for $75 if you did need to replace them.

Yup. Aside from the entire tether expiration being a bunch of BS, I did check with Defnder as well and there's no requirement since they don't date stamp. You are free to replace them if you wish.

[snk328is]

The day that SFI starts requiring tether replacements is when I will lose it.

It's already bad as it is with the window net expiration bullshit.

[///M3Augy]

So I got to try a HANs sport model today at work fully strapped in. Didn't dig into me at all and was pretty comfy actually. Will have to try out a DefNder soon.

[Michael9218]

The day that SFI starts requiring tether replacements is when I will lose it.

It's already bad as it is with the window net expiration bullshit.

Nah, you just aren't smart enough to understand the complex physics involved whereby in their lab these tethers, window nets, and harnesses majically crumble, being rendered unsafe in a period of exactly 2 years. But fret not, you can always buy a suitable replacement from said maunfacturers...

If it was any other product (meaning not SFI certified) you'd refuse to buy from someone who can't make a product last longer than 2 years. The irony for DefNder is that they make a tether upgrade made from Kevlar webbing. It would be kind of hard to sell someone on spending more for a stronger longer lasting tether when they would expire anyway. I guess this is probably partially why the fire suits don't expire. Manufacturers would have a hell of a time up selling the higher margin expensive suits if we all had to throw them away after 2 years, so I'm sure they had influence on SFI not setting expiration dates.