Agreed.
The bulk of all (proper) flare work is tied up in clearancing the rear unibody and fenders for the tires at full bump travel, correctly. And tying the now cut apart fender to the inner layer(s) of unibody sheet metal, to restore the structure. You can see what we're talking about in the two pictures above. Installing the actual "flare" sections, to cover up all of this clearance work underneath, is the "easy" part.
I've got galleries of pictures covering steel flare grafting on 4 different cars now, with 3 of them uses the cheap E46 non-M fenders. I only used E46 M3 flares on my E46 330, since they essentially bolted on the front (I had to modify them for rules purposes).
- E36 2-door steel flares
- E36 4-door with steel flares
- E46 non-M with M3 fenders
- Subaru GC with E46 steel flares (see pics below)
I've got a couple more E46 M3 fenders stashed away (CraigsList finds) for the next project. Might do the rears on the 330 before it gets painted.
Good luck,
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
Not necessarily. I ran 17x9 et45 SSRs with 275/40/17 Hoosiers with a very mild flare (done with a roller). I also ran a 5mm spacer.
I calculate your wheel sticking out an extra 11.35mm farther than my wheel, but your tire will not be as wide as mine. Just saying, you may be able to make it work. A big fender flare will also swallow the setup you describe. Either way, good luck!
I forgot to mention these two conditions before:
1. Flares are what racers use that need more tire width (and/or height), and need to cover up the clearancing work they had to perform to fit them.Totally different needs and requirements between these two groups. What I am describing with the flare methods above applies to racers - this being the "Track" section of Bimmerforums and all.
2. Hardparkers use flares or widebody kits for "the wide look". They can sometimes be content use tiny 225mm tires so long as its "stretched, poked and tucked".
I'm not hatin' on the hard-parkers, that's just not the crowd we sell to or race with. I simply don't understand what motivates that movement, and "the look" seems to change almost annually (Altezza lights, murdered out, tuck/poke, angel eyes, stance/VIP, etc). Its as close to alien to me as anything else in the fringes of the automotive realm. :
Moving on...
Well... you might have that same 9.5" wide wheel under stock E36 fenders, but likely not with the same ET35 offset (which I would argue is the wrong offset for an E36 in that wheel width - it might barely fit the front with a 5mm spacer, but not the back, without flares). ET35 on a 9.5" wheel works out to a 6.6" backspacing, which is about 1/4" too shallow... we ran a 6.9" backspacing on our 17x9.5" wheel and used a 15mm spacer up front. This backspacing tucked the rear wheel inboard .3" more than the ET35 would, which barely fit the E36 rear confines, both inboard and outboard. That was closer to a ET45 offset out back and an ET30 up front (with the 15mm spacer). It was tiiiight....
http://www.rimsntires.com/rt_specs.jsp - feel free to check my numbers
What I'm trying to say is fitting 9.5" wide wheels on an E36 with stock fenders is by no means simple. When we ran custom CCW wheels in 17x9.5" for (at the time) Hanchey's E36 M3 (see pics above) it took a good bit of fender rolling in the rear and careful offset/spacer management to clear even 255/40/17s mounted onto those wheels (its easier to fit this tire size on a 9" wheel). The tires rubbed up front at full lock and out back at full bump, and the tires even touched inboard a tick under high g turns. But damn, did it work well for a 255 "street tire" on that wider wheel - ultra sharp turn-in, precise in slaloms, loads of grip (1.2g lateral, 1.1g braking), and it was excellent in the wet. The new Dunlop 265/40/17s would be an even better set-up with a 9.5" wheel, but tighter still.
And the 18x10" wheel with 265mm tire set-up (above) we managed to sqeeeeeze onto this same E36 was way harder to pull off, and rubbed even worse. It was definitely a "race-only" and compromised set-up (we had to run lots of rear camber to clear the tires). If we had the choice in that class we would have run flares (and 285mm tires), definitely. The tires wouldn't have crushed the front fenders on a bumpy auto-x course, either.
But as I've said before, my definition of "fitting" is very different than many other folks' (most of those I've seen racing with wider than 9" wheels or 255mm tires on an E36 are hidden in a cloud of tire smoke, from all of the rubbing). I'll deal with slight rubbing but not the massive tire destruction I've seen on some racer's cars. Again... there's a lot of variables that effect tire rubbing, and not all apply to each person or even to sub-groups of automotive folks. Racers tend to have a lot more tire and suspension movement with higher loads in all directions than the pure street driven car or especially the car show only crowds. Its just that simple.
And again, I don't claim to the be all knowing E36 wheel guru, we've just tried a lot of different wheels and tire sizes on an E36 with stock fender contours, racing the same E36 M3 in the "stock contour" limited STU class for over 4 straight years. Most E36 racers are more than capable with 255mm tires and 9" wheels stuffed under stock fenders. We've just run some bigger wheels and tires (with flares) when 255mm tires were not enough to handle the power and/or the heat.
Please just take my numbers here as "one more data set", from a racers' perspective. And, as always, be skeptical of everything you read on the interweb, even my data here. I don't believe almost anything I read on the 'net or in magazines, even when pictured in great detail, unless I can drive the car, measure everything myself, know the person closely, etc. Some people... well, some just can't accurately use a scale or a measuring tape, while others don't look for the signs of tire rubbing, and some drive so slow as to avoid any lateral movement in the tire carcass or suspension. I'm just saying... not everyone's data is using the same variables as what you'd see.
Thanks,
Last edited by Fair; 01-11-2011 at 08:42 PM.
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
agreed.
Alex Lipowich has more photos on his website. This applies to his widebody kit, but the process is the same.
http://www.abloriginalparts.com/pb/w..._0bf0e604.html
TheOtherEric....I used the 240SX "flares" on my E36 sedan, but as Fair stated, the problem lies in clearing the outer unibody fenders for wider tires at full suspension compression. Without removing the outer fender structure and clearancing it, wider tires rub. This may not be such an issue for 17" wheels, but it was for 18" wheels.
i'm always skeptical of what you post
Here's what happened to my car in 2005 when trying to run 285/30/18 without properly clearing the rear fenders. Never had an issue after correcting it.
Nope. I run that exact wheel size, 18x9.5 + 35 all around, and they fit with no spacers. Running 255/35/18 star-specs on very mildly-rolled stock fenders. I am currently running a 12mm front spacer, but only to clear my BBK. You just need plenty of camber, but you're going to have that anyway if you want it to corner at the auto-x or the likes.
-Mike
IG: @mikevanshellenbeck
Thanks everyone for the additional information that was posted in here....
I am just trying to gather more information before starting this project to be able to take advantage of the extra grip from 285s...
The way LowSide67's E36 handle locally at AutoX and the grip level is just mad insane compared to my 255s...just incredible
Bumping an old thread....
It's been a while and I am ready to take on this diy project (except painting)....
So the Certifit near me only has in-stock:
- 1 Pair LEFT & RIGHT for 99-01 (pre-facelift) - e46 sedan
- 1 Pair LEFT & RIGHT for 02+ (facelift) - e46 sedan
Does anyone have a definite answer if it makes any difference to use pre-facelift VS facelift e46 sedan fenders?
if not, I will grab both pairs, otherwise I would need to wait until they get them in stock (they cant give me an eta)
Definitive answer, no. But I'd assume that the facelift has to do more with where the fender lines up with the front bumper / headlight housing. Body lines and such. The part you plan on cutting off is probably the same.
Even if it is not, one pair for the back should need less of the arc than the ones in the front, and I can't imagine that it won't work somehow.
YMMV, but that is my gut instinct on that.
[Ethan "if it weren't for that cone" Connor|323is #89DSP]
We have a new option instead of blending in and welding e46 flares Rear fender flares are being made right now...
http://dtmfiberwerkz.com/access/styl...ers-p-537.html
any pictures of them on a car with 18x10/285s?
Looks good but FRP, kinda of risky if tire/wheel fitment is really close to the fender....
How many mm of clearance do the non-M E46 fenders buy you, really? And what about the M3 E46 ones?
For selfish reasons, let's talk about the rear (because that's what I'm looking to do myself) but any measurements / data available would be great!
Hey Terry, what exactly is the "right" thing to do with the split open layers of unibody? Do you beat on the inner layer(s) of metal until it meets the cut-up quarter panel (outer layer), weld them back together, AND THEN add the new fender flare on top of that? Such that the new flare is entirely single-layer only?
Also, have you rolled a grafted fender like this? Does it still roll properly, or does the flare bend / break apart at the weld seams?
We have done the 330i flares on our street car and have a rivet on version coming out this week
Rivet on 330i flares
Our street car we pulled the molds from
Last edited by ahardm3; 05-09-2012 at 08:35 AM.
Nice work! I have a few dumb questions for you...
If I wanted to add flares to a racecar, definitely not a show car there is a decent amount of sheetmetal trimming and welding to prepare for any flare, THEN I would have the choice of either adding the rivet on fender or the steel re-pops. What are the advantages of the rivet on fender, is it just than I don't have to bondo, sand, paint like I do with the steel application? See my point? The steel pieces are so cheap, but there is more labor involved with the final steps of the install... Help me understand, thanks, Nate.
Last edited by TOOLEAN; 05-08-2012 at 03:04 PM.
For anyone considering this, I am in the middle of this "mod" and have come to the realization that the shape of the E46 front fender flare does not quite match that of the E36's original rear wheel opening, which means you end up with some combination / compromise of the following:
-new flare doesn't line up with existing bumper (even if bumper is stretched / widened)
-new flare doesn't line up with existing side molding (even if it's bent outwards)
-new wheel opening is higher than the original (increased tire to fender gap)
-the center of the wheel opening (its highest point) is shifted one way or the other (fore or aft)
There is no way you will be able to take a steel repop and just rivet it on. It is actually a lot of work to fit them properly especially when it comes to making the moldings work (that is if you choose to keep the moulding and not cut them or cover them up).
All of this very true!
Last edited by ahardm3; 05-09-2012 at 08:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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