Chassis : E36 vs E46

[gisqc]

I've done quite alot of research on both chassis, there's alot of info on both chassis, but every E36 M3 vs E46 M3 thread I found was biased. People were comparing them in stock form or atleast with their motor, which gave the E46 M3 a huge HP advantage.

What about chassis only, E36 M3 or E46 M3 would be better at the track?

I know Evosport guys prefers E46 all the way (hope the will chime in). I remember reading they said one of there E46 with a HP cage only was outlapping Jholder E36 Fully built (and caged) CM car while being heavier and down on hp (~60whp)

Then many would seem to prefer the E36 mainly for weight reason (and price, but lets not put that as a reason here!)

Other than them I haven't found much opinion on the subject.

What would make the E46 better for a track car over the E36?

-Suspension design?
-Beefier/stronger rear-end?
-Chassis rigidity?
-Does all of those overcomes the higher weight?
-Anything else?

Bigger fenders to fit huge tires more easily are definitly a plus, but nothing that can be overcome on an E36.

Let's discuss.

[Jmabarone]

off the top of my head, e46 can fit much wider front tires without any work. I believe without a wide body, the e36 has a bit better aero because it is narrower, but since you give up so much tire, it cancels out. e46 starts with a better engine.

I'm sure others who know tons more will chime in shortly, but I know of an e46 that is essentially stock (in the engine department) that does fairly well out here.

[Brent 930]

Though I have never owned an E46 I will list some things.

E36

-Lighter
-A lot cheaper, at least for the car itself
-Can have good enough brakes to make it a wash
-Suspension can probably be made equal (they're very similar otherwise)
-Aero probably equal or can be made to
-Steering probably equal
-Shifting probably equal
-Seats and cage probably equal

E46

-Bigger tires
-Wider body
-Better motor (more power band)

Unknowns to me;

-Better or worse gearing? That combined with the motor can make a big difference.

-Chassis rigidity, though I think they are close to each other. They seem to have similar issues.

Been on the fence a few times thinking about an E46 but I never can justify it.

[ScotcH]

I've built both. Honestly, the suspension is pretty much identical. The e46 can definitely fit more tire in front. Weight wise they are similar as well, with teh e46 about 100lbs heavier in general.

Note: this is e36 vs e46 sedan. No experience with the e46 m3 (other than street car form).

[clopez95m3]

-Chassis rigidity, though I think they are close to each other. They seem to have similar issues.

Are you kidding? The E36 is a wet floppy noodle compared to newer BMWs.
I'd choose the E46 every time.

Carlos.

[Brent 930]

Like I said I didn't know but they do have similar chassis issues.

-Front shock towers
-Rear subframe mounting points
More? No?

[MasterKwan]

Are you kidding? The E36 is a wet floppy noodle compared to newer BMWs.
I'd choose the E46 every time.

Would you say that's still true if both are caged? I'm assuming track car here and any track car worth it's salt will be caged.

What's the intended purpose? Racing or just HPDE?

I think a $15K difference in price is pretty huge. I like to think my track cars are disposable because on track wrecks aren't that uncommon. I can buy 2-3 E36 M3's for the price of an E46 M3.

[3MPowered]

The E46 would make the better track car simply on the basis that I can't see BMW making an M3 that couldn't out perform it's older counterpart.

That being said, you're going to see a lot more E36 M3's on the track because they're easier to maintain and generally cheaper. With a cheaper base car, you're left a lot more money to turn it into a full on track car, which will hold its own against E46 M3's, if not out perform them for the same amount of money.

[=BA=]

E46 have more trackwith I believe, also on a E46 the stock underbody aero is better and they can fit wider tires.

Suspension wise the rear is pretty much identical to the E36. One disadvantage is that the front strut assembly is somewhat more prone to deflection as the E36 counterpart, I believe it is because of that they switched back to E36 style for the Z4M.

I'd say the E36 is what the E30 was a number of years ago, then the whole track was full of E30's and now more E36. In time cars like the E46 330i and probably the E90 330i will come to replace those as well

[BobWright]

HOW MUCH MONEY YOU GOT ????????

THAT Sir....is the answer to the question.

The E36 is a wet floppy noodle Carlos.

Dude.......

[murph1379]

One disadvantage is that the front strut assembly is somewhat more prone to deflection as the E36 counterpart, I believe it is because of that they switched back to E36 style for the Z4M.

Agreed, also it can be a challenge to get the kind of camber the E36 can get on an E46 non-M, but with the M's longer control arms, from what I hear you can get all the camber you desire.

[Spec3HOR]

I'd say the E36 is what the E30 was a number of years ago, then the whole track was full of E30's and now more E36. In time cars like the E46 330i and probably the E90 330i will come to replace those as well

I think youve got it somewhat nailed. Everybody always wants "newer" typically because its got less rust/more development/etc etc.

E36 M3 production outweighted E30 M3 production, E46 M3 production outweighed E36 M3 production. Ill be honest, as soon as I get into a house ill be keeping my eye open for an E46 M3 chassis if I decide to continue with GTS goals. 3-5 years and they will be as cheap as E36s. Hell, 100-150k mile E36 M3s are selling between 6-10K (some asking more but no comment ). Look up E46 m3 prices over 100K, they are already down to 12-15k region.

[propcar]

The E46 would make the better track car simply on the basis that I can't see BMW making an M3 that couldn't out perform it's older counterpart.

That being said, you're going to see a lot more E36 M3's on the track because they're easier to maintain and generally cheaper. With a cheaper base car, you're left a lot more money to turn it into a full on track car, which will hold its own against E46 M3's, if not out perform them for the same amount of money.

In the 25th anniversary celebration of the M3 they tested all generations of the M3, around Ascari race track the E46 M3 and E36 M3 were practically even through the whole way.. yes that was the Euro m3, but the US M3 is almost the same given the gearing.

At the moment the E36 M3 is still a better track car, and autocross car. I think Terry at Vorshlag commented how much work they had to do to get their 330i to even match the E36 M3 they had built previously.

[joenationwide]

Another question to ask....Is this for fun factor at a DE? Do you just want which ever is faster? Or is this for competition?

I think the E36 M3 has better "feel" and "connectivity" to the road. I think driving an E36 M3 around a track fast could arguably be more rewarding than an E46.

An E46 M3 is naturally going to be faster than an E36 M3 on track stock vs. stock, modded vs. modded. But the cost of entry is certainly higher in an E46 M3.

If I were to race GTS3, I think I'd get an E46 M3. If it were just a DE car, an E36 M3. If it were a DD and DE car, then an E46 M3. My $0.02.

[Car54]

I have a harder time with cutting a dash and scrapping interior bits on a 13 year old car vs. a 6 year old car. Does it make the end product faster, maybe...but does it make it better? To me, no. I left an E46 M3 to get a E36/8 M coupe because I didn't want to love the car as much and wanted cheaper upkeep for a more purpose built track car. I was quickly catching similarly, but less, prepared E46 M3's...and doing it cheaper.

for the record...I am way more into the Mcoupe than I was into the E46 M3...I might not feel the same way about an E36 M3.

[magnetic1]

Im looking to go E46 M3 now from E36 M3 ... enough said.

[txse46m3]

I've done quite alot of research on both chassis, there's alot of info on both chassis, but every E36 M3 vs E46 M3 thread I found was biased. People were comparing them in stock form or atleast with their motor, which gave the E46 M3 a huge HP advantage.

What about chassis only, E36 M3 or E46 M3 would be better at the track?

I know Evosport guys prefers E46 all the way (hope the will chime in). I remember reading they said one of there E46 with a HP cage only was outlapping Jholder E36 Fully built (and caged) CM car while being heavier and down on hp (~60whp)

Then many would seem to prefer the E36 mainly for weight reason (and price, but lets not put that as a reason here!)

Other than them I haven't found much opinion on the subject.

What would make the E46 better for a track car over the E36?

-Suspension design?
-Beefier/stronger rear-end?
-Chassis rigidity?
-Does all of those overcomes the higher weight?
-Anything else?

Bigger fenders to fit huge tires more easily are definitly a plus, but nothing that can be overcome on an E36.

Let's discuss.

Having done both, stripped to the shell, the E46M3 chassis is better. There are very few series in which you can take full advantage of the lower weight achievable with the E36 chassis (CCA Mod being the only one where it ends up being competitive at ultra low weight) and to get that you give up chassis rigidity, track width, tire capacity, interior space, aero profile, and superior OEM engineering.

Same weight, drivetrain, suspension components, and driver: e46m3 chassis is a faster package.

And for those who will take exception to the rigidity argument due to cage installation, keep in mind that when you put the same cage into the two chassis, the one that started out stiffer will end up stiffer leading to a more consistent car.

That said, I was a lot less stressed about wrecking my E36 because it was a lot less expensive.

[Steve J.]

As others have mentioned...what do you want to do? That is always the magic question.

If you want a cheap car to run at DE's, can't beat the E36. But if "cheap" to you is $30k...you can grab an E46 m3 for half that, and prep it very nicely for under $30k and rip up the E36's.

Ultimately, E46 M3 WILL be faster than E36 M3. Obviously if its a stock E46 M3 vs. Cmod fully prepped E36 M3...there is no contest.

Suspension is "similar" but its all in the details. There is a reason the trend on the fast E36's is to change over to E46 geometry - Its better

[TOOLEAN]

there is a reason the trend on the fats e36's is to change over to e46 geometry - its better

who you calling fat?!

[murph1379]

I think Terry at Vorshlag commented how much work they had to do to get their 330i to even match the E36 M3 they had built previously.

Hmm, he's trying to get a non-M to match an M car's level of performance, of course it's going to take some work. Less displacement, more weight, and worse gearing from the factory. The fact that the 330's are taking over DSP class autocross seems like a testament to the chassis to me, they're a good 200 lbs heavier than the competition.

[SimTechDJ]

first off - STOCK
edge to E46 for engine power and chassis rigidity but too much electronic detachment from the road. the E36 is more of a drivers/enthusiast car. you definitely feel more one with the car.

Mild-prep
the E36 does very well after bushings, minor cage(6pt) and other chassis stiffening. its able to fit 245 front and 255 rear with no issues(pending correct offset).
the E46 is still slightly faster on track with same mods but i still feel detached from car.

FULL RACE
truly depends on setup, class rules and how deep your pockets. dollar for dollar the E36 can keep up and go all the way...assuming you want to spend the same total $$$ on both. it will take less time and money to make a 1:10 (@firebird main or PIR in arizona)E46 than an E36. truth is, it all comes down to how you feel in the car and how comfortable you are when pushing it to the limit. my money still goes to the E36 for being able to feel the car more clearly near the limit.

[Steve J.]

If you can get a cheap E46 Chassis...the cost to make it hit a certain lap time will ultimately be the same as an E36. Everything is the same from one chassis to the other at the end of the day...the E46 just comes with a lot of it from the factory 6spd, 210 rear end, wider and body allows for a lot of tire from the factory. End of the day...E46 will always win.

[3MPowered]

In the 25th anniversary celebration of the M3 they tested all generations of the M3, around Ascari race track the E46 M3 and E36 M3 were practically even through the whole way.. yes that was the Euro m3, but the US M3 is almost the same given the gearing.

At the moment the E36 M3 is still a better track car, and autocross car. I think Terry at Vorshlag commented how much work they had to do to get their 330i to even match the E36 M3 they had built previously.

That was a fantastic issue of Evo! Don't forget though that the E46 M3 they tested was the CSL. I don't think anyone would argue that the CSL can be beaten on the track by an E36. Even track prepped E36 M3s would be given a hard time I think.

[tammer]

In the 25th anniversary celebration of the M3 they tested all generations of the M3, around Ascari race track the E46 M3 and E36 M3 were practically even through the whole way.. yes that was the Euro m3, but the US M3 is almost the same given the gearing.

Have you driven a Euro vs. US E36 M3 on the track? The US version's gearing in NO WAY makes up for the 80-hp deficit. And let me tell you, the deficit seems even bigger because of where the S50B32 makes its power, all at the top end. The US E36 M3 can accelerate to 60 about as quickly as the Euro version thanks to those shorter gears, but on a track you never drag race from 0-60 mph. From 60-120, the Euro car is dramatically faster, and the E46 M3 is a smidge faster than that. And that's just the straight-line part of the story; as everyone else has pointed out, the E46 is a better chassis in terms of aero, front suspension geometry, and baseline rigidity.

The primary advantages to the E36 are cheapness, ubiquity, and ready availability of reliable, cheap, drop-in junkyard replacements for people who run stock-ish motors. There are reasonably cheap lightweight body panels, as well, but it's a lot harder to remove a roof skin and there's no factory CF roof option as with the E46. You can run a class like SpecE36 with a 100k-mile junkyard motor that you buy for $600 and be near the front of the pack. Tough to do that with any class in which an E46 is competitive, except maybe GTS, and even then the motor will cost you a lot more. If you can afford the E46, you'll be faster in it. It's the same reason the E30 M3s were getting outclassed by E36s in JP; with the allowed mods, they just couldn't overcome the power deficit and aero limitations despite being truly amazing cars when they were designed and built.

-tammer

[magnetic1]

How about this... if I get an E46 M3 for GTS, I think ALL my competition should run an E36.... :P

The only benefits I see for an E36 is cost and availability of cheap parts. I'll let Jaffe get into all the technical details about roll center, etc etc. If you build two GTS3 cars to the limit, the E46 will win.