cheap BBK for our cars?

[v.b.]

E36 M3 brake...I know that..
but what about E46 M3 brakes?
or 330 front brakes?

[G. P. Burdell]

Atl3, jblack, jmargo, and I have converted to E46 330i front/E46 32xi rear brakes. (I think jmargo mounted E36 M3 rear brakes and trailing arms.) Unlike E36 M3 brakes, the E46 330i front brakes bolt up to your spindles. Very easy.

Do a search on "e46 brakes" and you should find loads of useful information.

EDIT: You must have minimum 17" wheels to run E46 330i front brakes.

[Bremsen]

As GP said the E46 330/32xi swap is simple, effective conversion. The only hard part is finding the calipers and carriers. I think it would be pretty tought to swap E46 M3 brakes if its possible at all. The 330 is about the cheapest BB conversion you can do. And its all OEM.

Disc diameters are (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
E36 M3 = 323mm
E46 330 = 325mm
E46 M3 = 325mm

I believe both the M's have a wider disc though and they are directionally veined. The rear E46 32xi conversion increases diameter of the disc 3/8" and its vented. Again, calipers, carriers and discs are all thats needed.

The larger front caliper pistons of the 330 increase pedal travel by about 1". I'm going to swap to an M3 master cylinder (this weekend GP ) to try and counter the problem. I will post a writeup and its effect on pedal pressure when I'm finished.

[G. P. Burdell]

Originally posted by Atl3
The larger front caliper pistons of the 330 increase pedal travel by about 1". I'm going to swap to an M3 master cylinder (this weekend GP ) to try and counter the problem. I will post a writeup and its effect on pedal pressure when I'm finished.

:

I'm looking forward to seeing your writeup! Even though my foot has gotten used to the softer pedal over the past six months, I'd still like to get some of the old pedal feel back.

[bimmer95]

E36 318/32X: 286x22
E46 32X: 300x22
E46 330: 325x25
E46 M3: 325x28

FYI: E36 318/32X models use the same front calipers as E46 32X models, so all you need to upgrade to E46 32X rotors is new caliper brackets.

[cleoent]

so to upgrade to 330i brakes all you need is 17" rims, new calipers and discs? That;s it?

[G. P. Burdell]

Yup. 330i front calipers and brackets, 330i rotors, and 330i pads. It's that easy.

[cleoent]

how much does it all cost is the questioN?

[G. P. Burdell]

Front E46 330i calipers: $250-$350/pair from salvage yards or 330i owners who've gone BBK

Front rotors: OE BMW, list price ~$60 each

Front pads: Your choice (~$60-$70)

Anti-rattle clips, wear sensor, brake pad goo, caliper rebuild kits, brake fluid, pressure bleeder, SS brake lines, etc.: Varies

Costs are comparable for the rear E46 brake conversion.

[cleoent]

that is fantastic, last question, the million dollar question

how big of a braking improvement is there?

[jblack]

Depends on if you can get it used or if you have to visit the dealer. I did new rotors (OEM), new pads (Axis Ultimates) new lines (Goodridge Stainless), and new rear carriers (couldn't find them used, so I bought 323i rear calipers, and bought the new carriers). I bought used front and rear calipers, and used front carriers. Also, I painted the calipers and rebuilt them (very easy). I think if I had to do it again, I would have powder coated the calipers. With a 318is with a D/A SC, I probably have a couple more horses than a 328, and the systems is fine with street pads on the track! I did just have to buy 17" wheels for winter (I used to use the 15" the car came with in the winter, but no way with the new brakes).

[G. P. Burdell]

You'll gain more fade resistance. More rotor mass = more heat capacity.

As for stopping distance, I have no before/after numbers. The 330i front pads give you 1/4 to 1/3 more contact area than the stock E36 pads. All I can tell you is that I feel like I could stop shorter than I did with the stock 328i brakes. But I also upgraded pad compounds at the same time, going from PBR Deluxes to Axxis Ultimates.

On the flip side, your brake pedal travel will increase, and your car will gain a fair amount of unsprung weight due to the larger calipers and rotors. Depending on what Atl3 finds out this weekend, you may be able to install an E36 M3 master cylinder to improve the pedal travel/feel.

It's a modest upgrade for those of us who don't track our cars and don't need a BBK. Plus, all of the parts are stock BMW parts that are relatively inexpensive to replace.

[cleoent]

cha-ching, thanks GP, i have pbr pads right now, how do you like the axxis ultimates? I think its time for a change...

[G. P. Burdell]

The Ultimates are way better than the Deluxes. The Ultimates dust a lot more, though. I've decided that I'm willing to clean the wheels more frequently in exchange for better braking performance.

The big 330i front rotors fill a 17" wheel very nicely, too.

[cleoent]

so they're worth the 60 dollar difference. I'll take your word on it, looks like its time for an upgrade...

[Bremsen]

Originally posted by cleoent
that is fantastic, last question, the million dollar question

how big of a braking improvement is there?

I would say that you gain a very large amount of brake torque with the 330 upgrade. Not only do you get the increased surface area of the larger pad (like GP mentioned) and the much larger caliper piston but the disc size increase from 286 -> 325mm is quite significant. This provides substantial increase in leverage over the E36 setup. The only real benefit of a BBK over this swap is the resistance to fade after repeated hard stops (ie if you track your car alot).

I can't really tell how much difference from a good E36 brake system it made since I didn't do any 60-0 tests and my brakes were in a state of shambles before the swap. It was night and day with me though. Honestly, my tires have become the weak link with my brakes. Its extremely easy to engage the ABS system now.

[jblack]

The concept of reducing your stopping distance with a BBK is missing the point. If you can engage ABS with your current brake system, you are close to max as far as stopping distance.

BBKs are all about modulating the brakes (which, when done effectively, will reduce braking distance), fade resistance and rotor warping resistance. Don't focus on the braking distance - when you are at full lock, or engaging ABS, the limiter is your tires, not your brakes....think about it.

[v.b.]

Originally posted by G. P. Burdell
The Ultimates are way better than the Deluxes. The Ultimates dust a lot more, though. I've decided that I'm willing to clean the wheels more frequently in exchange for better braking performance.

The big 330i front rotors fill a 17" wheel very nicely, too.

what about PBR metal master vs ultimate??
the stinky damnit PBR warped my rotor within few months...
I am looking to use something else...


EDIT: great info here...I will look around...

[toddman35]

Are the 330 calipers that much better than the 32x calipers? Also how much are the caliper brackets at the dealer?

[Bremsen]

Todd, the 330 calipers have a noticably larger piston and use the M3 pad. So if you consider M3 brakes better than 32x than yes. I think the brackets almost as much as the calipers at the dealer.

[bimmer95]

Caliper brackets retail at ~$150ea from a dealer, calipers are WAY more if you buy them from BMW, ~$300ea.

[toddman35]

Thanks, and the 330's and 32x's use the same bracket correct?

[bimmer95]

Nope. E46 323, 325 and 328 all use the same bracket and rotors. The E46 330 ones are unique to that model.

[toddman35]

So if I were to use 330 rotors, I would have to get 330 brackets and calipers too, but if I used 32x rotors, I could use my current calipers but would need 32x brackets? Do I have that right?

[bimmer95]

Bingo