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Thread: Clutch won't disengage

  1. #1
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    Angry Clutch won't disengage

    Ok, I have a situation that is baffling me.

    I have
    -95M3 flywheel (ltw)
    -UUC M3 ultra smooth cerametallic clutch with the 2x as stiff as stock pp
    -throw out bearing that came with the clutch kit
    -new pivot
    -same slave as 95 M3 (stock piece)
    -same ZF 5-speed everyone has
    -stock pivot fork (PN 21511223302)
    95 M3 (PN 21511204229) for reference

    I have good pedal feel, a perfectly clean bleed, no leaks in the slave cylinder or master cylinder, the line isn't swollen, and I put a mild bend in a piece of 1/4" plate steel (I made a tool similar to the BMW tool that holds the slave so you can pressure bleed it without popping the piston) pressing on the clutch pedal with my hand to make sure there were no leaks (held pressure on system and pedal didn't drop for 30 seconds so I assume no internal leaks).

    So, my problem is simple. When I installed everything and got it running with a clean bleed the car drove. The clutch was grabby, and at the bottom of the travel point for the pedal, but it was manageable. Every now and then coming to a stop in first with the clutch in the car would shudder forward some like the clutch wasn't fully disengaged. Yesterday halfway to work (5 miles) the clutch quit working properly. I had to start the engine in 1st gear with the car moving, rev-match shifts, and shut the car off EVERY time I stopped the car. I pulled the slave and checked it all tonight, no obvious issues and the problem is still there.

    Edit - to clarify, the pedal was still working some, with the clutch on the floor when I'd crank the car I could rev it up some so it would accelerate more smoothly from a start and not shutter while trying to crank the engine - it just wouldn't fully disengage.

    The assumptions I've made are that the clutch forks are interchangeable, if so, I literally have a 95 M3 clutch system so everything should work, if not I'll buy both and compare before pulling the trans to replace it, but does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions?
    Last edited by Quicksilver328i; 04-13-2010 at 10:03 PM.
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  2. #2
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    Did you change the plastic piece the fork leverages against when you did the clutch?(it is installed in the bellhousing on the opposite side of the master cylinder).
    Sounds like that is broken.
    B.
    1991 bmw 325I <e30>
    First 8 second full body BMW with BMW independent rear suspension in the USA
    8.69 @160mph in a 1/4mile on slicks.
    drag radial tires record holder9.53@148. Also a world record holder for bmw overall 60-130mph 4.2 seconds.
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  3. #3
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    Pivot ball was my first thought too Boris. I've seen them really messed up before on cars that had awkward clutch issues prior.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiGmA View Post
    Pivot ball was my first thought too Boris. I've seen them really messed up before on cars that had awkward clutch issues prior.
    hammer and sickle it up. Works everytime like a charm.
    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
    ― George Orwell

  5. #5
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    I replaced it, and I can reach the fork with my fingers, there is little play (the clip is still intact) in the "up-down" direction which makes me think that clip is ok. Forward back it seems to pivot in the correct position as well.

    I had an issue upon initial startup (like this) that was a bad bleed but I pulled the trans and replaced it before figuring that out. I'm scratching my head, but it could be something silly like the disk hub hitting the pressure plate or something stupid like that.

    Found someone else with the same issues with a different UUC clutch. Guess I'll be calling UUC tomorrow. Wonder if they'll pay for me to have a shop pull the trans, I've have it out twice in 6 weeks already, this sucks.
    Last edited by Quicksilver328i; 04-13-2010 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  6. #6
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    As long as you have good clutch pedal and still no disengagement,And As much as you don't want to hear this,my next step would be ,if this was my car: remove transmission,disassemble and inspect clutch and related hardware.
    B.
    Last edited by djborya; 04-13-2010 at 11:00 PM.
    1991 bmw 325I <e30>
    First 8 second full body BMW with BMW independent rear suspension in the USA
    8.69 @160mph in a 1/4mile on slicks.
    drag radial tires record holder9.53@148. Also a world record holder for bmw overall 60-130mph 4.2 seconds.
    Bistein sport susp,turner sway bars,3:25lsd,m52 AEM INFINITY stand alone. MORAN 2500cc injectors E85 ,front mount 33x12x4 intercooler, 5lug conversion M3 front,Mcoupe rear Dss axles/driveshaft ATI Proglide.
    2003 Ford Expedition
    1998 M3
    1986 Mercedes Cosworth 190e 2.3 16v 5speed (sold)

  7. #7
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    Ok, so thinking about it, I'm going to try one last thing before pulling the tranny, mostly because I have my entire scavenge system mounted under the tranny and the exhaust is a pain to get lined up by myself (wastegate, etc.).

    I'm going to make an extender for the slave cylinder pin. I'm basically going to make a sleeve like a penis extender, and try it...

    If this works, its by no means a permanent solution, but would indicate a travel issue and I can figure out where to go from there....if it doesn't it means something is hitting and I HAVE to pull the trans.


    As a note, engagement was practically on the floor before, and its starting to disengage now, so I'm under the impression is just a "height" issue with something.
    Last edited by Quicksilver328i; 04-13-2010 at 11:15 PM.
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  8. #8
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    Have you changed the master cylinder? When I first put in my south bend stage 3 it was engaging on the floor. After the new master it grabs toward the top like stock.

  9. #9
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    I haven't changed the master, but I can't see why that would be an issue. The clutch was fine before this.
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  10. #10
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    The new clutch with the PP needing 2x as much pressure to move it is to much for a worn out master cylinder. Its like a weak old man trying to open a heavy new door that weighs twice as much.

  11. #11
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    you don't have one of those stupid clutch pedal stops installed do you? I replaced a perfectly good slave cylinder because the PO of my car thought it was cool to use one....seriously I spent 10+ hours working on this thing trying to figure out what i was doing wrong....and I used to do this sorta stuff as a profession until I decided to change careers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex1585 View Post
    you don't have one of those stupid clutch pedal stops installed do you? I replaced a perfectly good slave cylinder because the PO of my car thought it was cool to use one....seriously I spent 10+ hours working on this thing trying to figure out what i was doing wrong....and I used to do this sorta stuff as a profession until I decided to change careers.
    Pedal stops are FTW, you just have to adjust it. And of course when replacing any components, remove the stop and see how the clutch is, then start from the BOTTOM and move it up.

  13. #13
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    no pedal stops are FTL, anyone that thinks they are faster, better, clearly needs help

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex1585 View Post
    no pedal stops are FTL, anyone that thinks they are faster, better, clearly needs help
    yeah on a stock setup!
    you clearly need to do your homework as to why they are good and when they are necessary!

    To the OP I've got the same setup as you with similar issues. Trust me the UUC hardware isnt at fault! Check to see if the rod coming out of your slave has excessive side to side or 360deg movement. I've been babying my M3 for the last year due to issues and finally pulled it all apart to find the brand new 325I slave that Rob (@ UUC) reccomended. Aparently after a year it took a shit internally with NO, I mean NO signs of leaks, bleeding issues, ect. Putting an new salve in when I figure out what Im doing for my trans problem. I needed an EVO 6 speed for race car, so I stole it from M3 daily. Anyway, hope this helps.
    Last edited by Colby Colbs; 04-14-2010 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  15. #15
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    PM'ed
    Last edited by futureroadracer; 04-14-2010 at 02:26 AM.

  16. #16
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    I like using a clutch stop(the hydraulic release bearing I use requires it, but I still like it more than without it). Its nice being able to get RIGHT next to the engagement point really fast and easily.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex1585 View Post
    no pedal stops are FTL, anyone that thinks they are faster, better, clearly needs help
    Please do explain how its a bad thing. Being able to know where the end of travel is vs guess isn't a bad thing. I can get it damn close in cars without a stop, but sometimes I might be a few mm short and grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colby Colbs View Post
    yeah on a stock setup!
    you clearly need to do your homework as to why they are good and when they are necessary!

    To the OP I've got the same setup as you with similar issues. Trust me the UUC hardware isnt at fault! Check to see if the rod coming out of your slave has excessive side to side or 360deg movement. I've been babying my M3 for the last year due to issues and finally pulled it all apart to find the brand new 325I slave that Rob (@ UUC) reccomended. Aparently after a year it took a shit internally with NO, I mean NO signs of leaks, bleeding issues, ect. Putting an new salve in when I figure out what Im doing for my trans problem. I needed an EVO 6 speed for race car, so I stole it from M3 daily. Anyway, hope this helps.
    They work wonders on stock cars too. As long as the clutch isn't shot.

    What is the issue with your clutch? The slave?
    Last edited by SiGmA; 04-14-2010 at 02:36 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  18. #18
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    Roman I'm speaking from experience with my M3. Stock brand new clutch and flywheel, the pedal needed to got to the floor. If not it wouldnt like to go into gears from a stop.

    Yes I was speaking about the slave. I forgot to write ...recomended broke. fast typing and too tired to double chek sry.

  19. #19
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Colby Colbs View Post
    yeah on a stock setup!
    you clearly need to do your homework as to why they are good and when they are necessary!


    who says I am stock, just because I don't have a mile and a half worth of BS on my sig makes me stock?


    Do MY homework huh? OP was asking about issues due to his clutch, I answered with tangible information that could relate to the issue. Something that should always be addressed when diag'ing a problem, is to follow what is called "least intrusive diagnosis." Taking the transmission back out, or something apart seems rather intrusive compared to 15 seconds required to look underneath the clutch pedal. 20 seconds to remove it to see if that was the issue all along. 20 Seconds seems a hell of a lot easier, and less intrusive than removing the transmission again. When in doubt KISS.


    And lets be honest if you need a mechanical stop to get you right to the "edge" of engagement, you are working way to hard, let the vehicle do the work, feel what the car(transmission, clutch, etc.)likes, and adjust to it. Also how do you know that the clutch is completely engaged? Did you put the car on a lift, and put it in gear with it depressed to verify that there was absolutely ZERO engagement of the rear wheels, or what felt like it worked well? I would put money on the latter. Doing so has a decent possibility that the clutch could very well not be completely disengaged. Which is what sounds like the OP is having issues with.


    If you are looking for a better shifter feel, buy a DSSR, weighted shift knob, replace the shifter ball, and the knuckle that attaches to the transmission. You get more stuff to add to your sig, and will be better off for it....while your at it replace the transmission mounts and engine mounts. It should shift better than anything out there.





    But you wouldn't be able to put a $20 part on your car.....
    Last edited by Rex1585; 04-14-2010 at 03:11 AM.

  20. #20
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    I didnt say you were stock. Your posting saying that people with clutch stops clearly need help was a good one guy! Your right, I cant put a $20 part on my car... watever that means.

    And my sig, some one made it for me and this has nothing to do with anything. Please, grow up bro!
    Last edited by Colby Colbs; 04-14-2010 at 03:25 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  21. #21
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    I don't have a clutch stop. That was the first thing I checked 4 weeks ago when the issue originally surfaced.

    Here is (in more clear detail) why I am having trouble replacing the slave or master.

    I used two long bolts (althread actually) and attached a piece of 1/4" plate steel to the slave, trapping the rod. I then pressed on the clutch pedal with moderate pressure (same amount roughly) that it takes to press against my pressure plate). I held that for 30 seconds. The pedal didn't move (indicating a leak in the slave) and the metal hand a small bend in it when I got done.

    To me - that means the hydraulic system is fine. If something failed internally, I should have had as issue holding pressure on it.

    So far I have 2 cases other than mine with the same issue, and they have chased every rabbit hole without success. I'm suspecting clutch.

    I'll try shimming the slave cylinder pushrod tonight if I have time.

    Spoke to John at UUC, and he said to check the clutch fork for damage. Since I have good feel I am still going to try messing with the slave pin, if that works I'll pull the trans and measure everything. As much as I hate it it looks like the car is down another week (and it's still not turbo/engine related).
    Last edited by Quicksilver328i; 04-14-2010 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksilver328i View Post
    I don't have a clutch stop. That was the first thing I checked 4 weeks ago when the issue originally surfaced.

    Here is (in more clear detail) why I am having trouble replacing the slave or master.

    I used two long bolts (althread actually) and attached a piece of 1/4" plate steel to the slave, trapping the rod. I then pressed on the clutch pedal with moderate pressure (same amount roughly) that it takes to press against my pressure plate). I held that for 30 seconds. The pedal didn't move (indicating a leak in the slave) and the metal hand a small bend in it when I got done.

    To me - that means the hydraulic system is fine. If something failed internally, I should have had as issue holding pressure on it.

    So far I have 2 cases other than mine with the same issue, and they have chased every rabbit hole without success. I'm suspecting clutch.

    I'll try shimming the slave cylinder pushrod tonight if I have time.

    Spoke to John at UUC, and he said to check the clutch fork for damage. Since I have good feel I am still going to try messing with the slave pin, if that works I'll pull the trans and measure everything. As much as I hate it it looks like the car is down another week (and it's still not turbo/engine related).

    Sounds to me that you are on the right path...I to am wondering about the possibility of a bent clutch fork though....

  23. #23
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    Since the stock pressure plate is self adjusting I don't want to rule this out. It could just be bent dimple areas in the clutch fork that moved it a mm. A mm means the difference between engaging or not.
    13.239 @ 105.67 with .000 R/T and 1.93 - 60' - 2007 350z - SOLD
    Slow in turbo 528i thanks to a poor driver and lots of heat soak (I couldn't figure out how to drive a pucked clutch off the line to save my life).

    LM7 swap in progress/paused pending garage remodel.
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1660651





  24. #24
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    if you want ill take a pic today of what my 1 year old slave looks like.
    no leaks or sings of damage or wear untill you mess with that rod.

  25. #25
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    i had the same problem . i was at the track , went out for my first sesion & car ran fine, went out for the 2nd & clutch wouldnt disengage.after not finding anything whong with the system i sayd F it & started throwing parts at it. i tryed 2 trannys, 2 flywheels , 3 slaves & 2 masters . all with the same problem . the only way i got the problem to go away was adding about a inch to the slave ROD. i know its not the right fix but i couldnt figure it out for the life of me or my boss "im a ASE tech at a race/tech shop so im not compleatly retarted wen it comes to cars"
    one thing i did find tho was if i swaped a 325 FW & clutch it would work fine
    my setup is a M3 stock FW with a ACT 6puck
    wat i did tho was add about 3mm at a time untill clutch felt normal again.
    hope that helps.
    i do hope someone finds a fix LOL



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