The Comprehensive LSx e36 swap thread (in progress)

[RahgBag]

Car is running and driving as of 8/20/2010! What follows is my complete swap project, from the first questions to the last details of completion.

Hey guys,

After much deliberation as to what to do with my car, I have finally set my mind on doing the LS1 swap. There is a lot of information out there and a lot of build threads, but no real comprehensive information thread, so I'd like to get one going for myself and future ls1 swappers. Some basic questions I have to start with:

1. I've read that the Camaro LS1 is the best one to use because it has the aluminum block and has a better oil pan shape to fit the e36. Is this true? If not is there a standard version of the LS1 that most people use?

2. The biggest problem I've seen people encounter is with the header clearance on the driver side. Other than Vorshlag, I have yet to see any commercially available headers for this swap. If I do not have access to facilities to make my own headers, where would the best place to get them be?

3. Kind of the same question as above...I was planning on getting my driveshaft and tranny and motor mounts from Vorshlag, but I've heard there are major backups there. Is there a better place to get these from without fabricating them myself? I'm a good mechanic but I have neither the facilities nor experience to make these parts myself.

4. This car is going to be a DD. Therefore I need AC. I see the stickied thread at the top of this section regarding this, but is there any other information available?

5. As far as the clutch hydraulics are concerned, do you keep the e36 master cylinder and just fit an adapter between the clutch soft line and the t56's slave?

That's just a few off the top of my head. I would really appreciate some answers, as I will gladly make a comprehensive guide to this and post it once I'm through.

[garretvs]

Much of what you ask above is covered by our thread and our swap CD, see:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1348710

Our swap into the E30 is detailed with 21 chapters covering everything you would have to do for that platform. The E36 is easier, since the engine bay is a little bigger. Yes, use the Fbody oil pan. Yes, we think that the Sanderson headers would work in the E36. Yes, we cover A/C lines. No, you do not have to do a custom HydroBoost system for the E36, just move the E36 ABS unit a little. Yes, the E36 clutch master cyl is compatible with the GM slave cylinder. We show how to mod the driveshaft etc etc etc

[M5Hunter]

which sanderson headers would you be refering to?

[rao]

They are the mythical headers that make e36 swaps easy and cheap

Good luck not moving the brake master cylinder

[RahgBag]

Rao: Its interesting you say that about having to move the master cylinder...I see plenty of swaps where people haven't. Could you elaborate? I see why the abs has to be moved but the master sits up pretty high in the stock location.

Garretvs: Your threads are very informational, thank you. I will probably be purchasing your PDF and CD when I start to compile my parts.

Some more questions I haven't found answers to yet:

As far as cooling goes, you can use the e36 radiator, yes? If so, are custom hoses required?

I noticed that New Age Hotrods sells crate LS1s with the GTO style oil pan. They also include exhaust manifolds. Are these appropriate for use in the e36? That would certainly make things easier...and having a brand new motor with a warranty would be nice.

As far as wiring harnesses go, is it feasible for a DIY'er (non ME major, haha) to do the engine wiring, or is it worth it to invest in a "plug and play" kit? I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult with diagrams.

Transmission related questions:

1. Is the TOB with remote bleeder and fittings from Vorshlag a good buy?

2. As far as flywheels & clutch kits are concerned, is there any reason not to go with stock? This will be a DD so if a ltw flywheel is going to chatter or be obnoxious on the pedal I'd rather stick with stock unless it's a crazy improvement.

3. The shifter from the T56 seems tall and bulky compared to the e36 one. Would it be feasible to get a short shifter kit for a t56 modified to fit a BMW knob? I think that would add a nice finishing touch to the interior and really disguise what's under the hood.

TIA,
Robert

[hefftone]

Rao: Its interesting you say that about having to move the master cylinder...I see plenty of swaps where people haven't. Could you elaborate? I see why the abs has to be moved but the master sits up pretty high in the stock location.

Technically the master cylinder is not the problem, its the brake booster. Its very flat but wide, and nearly touches the steering shaft. Rao uses a mustang Hydroboost setup, where the brakes are power assisted via hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump. His setup creates a lot of space, it also requires a custom linkage/connection from the BMW brake pedal to the hydroboost unit. There are details on the nash site, in fact he has an instruction manual show how to install THE NASH KIT. Its worth a download even if you are not using his kit, which I believe he is not making anymore. I would look into using a e39 528/540 Brake booster and master cylinder,....would likely also need the E39 linkage, if this would infact fit.

As far as cooling goes, you can use the e36 radiator, yes? If so, are custom hoses required?

E36 radiator would probably suffice. The camaro/firebird radiators, like the E36 and most others, has a high water neck on the driver side of car, and a lower on the passenger side. The f-body hoses may get you close, there will likely be some trimming and or splicing/extending of hoses to reach the outlets....you also have Corvette,CTS-V,GTO,G8, full size truck, Colorado v8, Trailblazer V8, Hummer H2 & H3 v8, vehicles to borrow from.

I noticed that New Age Hotrods sells crate LS1s with the GTO style oil pan. They also include exhaust manifolds. Are these appropriate for use in the e36? That would certainly make things easier...and having a brand new motor with a warranty would be nice.

The LS1 was used in the first couple years of the GTO. The exhaust manifolds will be stock GTO manifolds, not the NEW AGE swap headers, which are available separate AND only guaranteed to work with the NEW AGE LS1 Swap Mounts. To see the difference in LS oil pans, check out these links ...
http://www.nookandtranny.com/Info_LSx.html#LSXOilPan
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...-oil-pans.html (may need to register to see pics on LS1tech)

Everybody,...and I mean everybody.... has ruled out ANY stock LSx exhaust manifold in conjunction with the standard E36 Steering shaft location. A couple guys (brothers actually) used extra u-joints to snake the steering shaft and used hooker block hugger manifolds.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...r+block+hugger
somebody had a picture, but I can't find the picture, perhaps another person did this also.

As far as wiring harnesses go, is it feasible for a DIY'er (non ME major, haha) to do the engine wiring, or is it worth it to invest in a "plug and play" kit? I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult with diagrams.

The LSx computer is practically a full stand alone harness. Hotrodders use them, and with properly modified harness will have 5 wires to hook up, aside from the plugs attaching to the engine. Personally, wiring freaks me out to but it does'nt seem to be as crazy as I would of thought.

Transmission related questions:

1. Is the TOB with remote bleeder and fittings from Vorshlag a good buy?

The remote bleeder makes it easier/possible to bleed the clutch. The bleeders stock location on the T-56 is probably difficult to access in the E36... these might even be used GM F-bodies as well.

2. As far as flywheels & clutch kits are concerned, is there any reason not to go with stock? This will be a DD so if a ltw flywheel is going to chatter or be obnoxious on the pedal I'd rather stick with stock unless it's a crazy improvement.

Largely depends on engine power and personal preference. I put light weight flywheels on my hondas, and it took only a couple days to get really used to it, at that point i would have never gone back to a stock flywheel, and could drive it just fine,....other folks found it a bit more difficult to drive, but figured it out. Just a little more modulation.

3. The shifter from the T56 seems tall and bulky compared to the e36 one. Would it be feasible to get a short shifter kit for a t56 modified to fit a BMW knob? I think that would add a nice finishing touch to the interior and really disguise what's under the hood.

I'll leave this to the other guys, but there are a buttload of T-56 shifters out there, and your knob preference is, at most, considered a minor detail compared to the rest of this swap.

TIA,
Robert

YW
Jl

[MikeJTR]

Good luck not moving the brake master cylinder

If you run solid (or nearly solid) motor mounts with the stock F-body oil pan, and you don't mind some vibrations that will rattle the car apart, you can run the stock booster/master cylinder.

[RahgBag]

Hefftone, thanks for the response, very good answers. I think I am going to go with the Mustang booster/cylinder and just modify the pedal like he did.

Could someone elaborate on how the fuel system works? Is it just easiest to run an aftermarket regulator like he says? If so, what would be a good choice?

My complete plans are finally coming together. Talked to a friend today who is letting me use his storage garage and engine hoist for the swap. I'll continue to post here as I compile parts and make more developed plans. When the swap starts (late April-early May) I will post a detailed writeup with pictures.

[RahgBag]

Bump to the first page. Anybody have any insight about the fuel delivery system?

Also, as far as the exhaust, would running a true dual in 2.25" like the BMW system work? I'm thinking that the v8 would sound about perfect with hi-flow cats, resonators, and then through a Stromung muffler. Any opinions on this? Thanks guys.

[hefftone]

IIRC, most of the guys are using the corvette FPR, and I think some are using the walbro fuel pump <not sure>.... mostly depends on your power level.

As far as the exhaust, you're going to be cutting it up a bit, so I don't see the point in shelling out the big bucks to do such a thing. To save some bucks, you could start with a used M3 exhaust, and patch into that. Or have a shop do your full exhaust. As far as muffler selection (pretty far down the road at this point) i'd listen to some youtube vids of LS vehicles with certain exhausts. Keep cam changes in mind to, as that will change the tone. Personally, I like the sound produced by Borla Mufflers.
Hope this helps.

[RahgBag]

Yeah I am looking pretty far down the road, but I think I have most of the details worked out already, I'm just trying to get everything I can think of done before I start ordering parts.

The only reason I wanted to do the Stromung idea is because it is on the quiet end of mufflers. I want to be able to hear the v8 rumble, but I don't wan't it to be too loud. I have a Magnaflow catback on my m50 right now and that's about as loud as I'd like it to be, just for reference. With cats and resonators do you think that Borla/Magnaflow/insertexhaustbrandhere will be okay? Kinda looking for the sleeper in this car.

[Fair]

1. I've read that the Camaro LS1 is the best one to use because it has the aluminum block and has a better oil pan shape to fit the e36. Is this true? If not is there a standard version of the LS1 that most people use?

The Camaro LS1 has the tightest accessory drive packaging and the best oil pan to fit the E36 subframe.


1998-2002 Camaro LS1 has the narrowest, shortest accessory package


The higher mounting of the alternator on the Cadillax LSX, truck LSX and Corvette LSX make them less attractive


The pulleys and balancer stick out farther on the truck bits, which might run into the radiator

The Camaro LS1 and T56 are also still the most abundant. These are out there in large numbers. The actual longblock can be used from any LSX - LS1, LS2, LS3l LS6, LS7, trucks, etc. There are only minor changes between these (cam sensor and knock sensor placement, crank trigger wheel teeth count, EGR, etc - all easily remedied)

2. The biggest problem I've seen people encounter is with the header clearance on the driver side. Other than Vorshlag, I have yet to see any commercially available headers for this swap. If I do not have access to facilities to make my own headers, where would the best place to get them be?

You can try some of the block hugger shorties - there might be one that fits. These really suck, though... 1-5/8" primaries, super short primary lengths, 2.5" collectors. These will be down 15-20 hp over real full length 1-3/4" headers, like ours.

3. Kind of the same question as above...I was planning on getting my driveshaft and tranny and motor mounts from Vorshlag, but I've heard there are major backups there. Is there a better place to get these from without fabricating them myself? I'm a good mechanic but I have neither the facilities nor experience to make these parts myself.

Well we have a list of several customers awaiting the next round of kits and we're making another run with Dallas Performance built mounts in JANUARY 2010. I'd advice against "Reinventing the wheel" and just go with the proven parts that have outsold every other kit built - the Vorshlag/DP E36 LS1 swap kit. Bolt them on and spend your time driving the car, no welding and guessing.

Oh, and the kit price is going to drop a good bit on this next round, too.

4. This car is going to be a DD. Therefore I need AC. I see the stickied thread at the top of this section regarding this, but is there any other information available?

We setup our kit to fit with the Camaro a/c compressor. Its tight, but it fits. I can send you pics.

5. As far as the clutch hydraulics are concerned, do you keep the e36 master cylinder and just fit an adapter between the clutch soft line and the t56's slave?

On any single disc clutch the E36 clutch MC works fine. We sell a customized GM hydraulic TOB that connects to the E36 MC, with a remote bleed and quick connects for easy driveline removal. Its a no brainer.

We'll post more next month but we can help you get your kit together with the best parts - whether its a street or race car; E36 coupe, sedan or Z3; T56 or TR6060; we've done it.







We're wrapping up another Vorshlag E36 LS1 swap in-house in the next couple of months, as well. The 500 hp motor LS1 and new 6-spd are here and ready to go into the 95 M3 chassis. This will be a street/track car so it should get a lot more use than our last race-car-only Alpha car.

Cheers,

[RahgBag]

Fair, thanks for the great reply. After reading your "Alpha" car's thread, I noticed that you didn't have to mess with the brake booster/MC. With your engine/transmission mounts, will I have to find a solution to booster/MC fitment?

I'm actually going to be in the DFW area next week, will you be open for me to stop by?

[Fair]

Fair, thanks for the great reply. After reading your "Alpha" car's thread, I noticed that you didn't have to mess with the brake booster/MC. With your engine/transmission mounts, will I have to find a solution to booster/MC fitment?

I'm actually going to be in the DFW area next week, will you be open for me to stop by?

No worries about the booster - you can keep the stock unit in place, which we highly recommend. The brake system, action and feel of the E36 is SO good its best not to mess around here.

Give us a call at the shop line - of course you can stop by. We're open every weekday except Christmas and NYD over the holidays.

[Brent 930]

Fair, what would be nice to see (though I'm not in the market for the swap anymore) is a complete kit start to finish minus the motor/trans. No stage this or that.

That means, with this complete kit that after the swap is made you are driving the car. Done and done.

[MikeJTR]

Fair, what would be nice to see (though I'm not in the market for the swap anymore) is a complete kit start to finish minus the motor/trans. No stage this or that.

That means, with this complete kit that after the swap is made you are driving the car. Done and done.

Look at this link:
http://www.nash8503.com/Conversion_Kits.html

RAO used parts of this kit, and he is one of the few on this forum who has a daily driver LSx-E36 with ac.

[hefftone]

Oh, and the kit price is going to drop a good bit on this next round, too.

Hey that's great news! Looking to forward to see.

[Thaniel]

Hey guys,

After much deliberation as to what to do with my car, I have finally set my mind on doing the LS1 swap. There is a lot of information out there and a lot of build threads, but no real comprehensive information thread, so I'd like to get one going for myself and future ls1 swappers. Some basic questions I have to start with:

1. I've read that the Camaro LS1 is the best one to use because it has the aluminum block and has a better oil pan shape to fit the e36. Is this true? If not is there a standard version of the LS1 that most people use?

2. The biggest problem I've seen people encounter is with the header clearance on the driver side. Other than Vorshlag, I have yet to see any commercially available headers for this swap. If I do not have access to facilities to make my own headers, where would the best place to get them be?

3. Kind of the same question as above...I was planning on getting my driveshaft and tranny and motor mounts from Vorshlag, but I've heard there are major backups there. Is there a better place to get these from without fabricating them myself? I'm a good mechanic but I have neither the facilities nor experience to make these parts myself.

4. This car is going to be a DD. Therefore I need AC. I see the stickied thread at the top of this section regarding this, but is there any other information available?

5. As far as the clutch hydraulics are concerned, do you keep the e36 master cylinder and just fit an adapter between the clutch soft line and the t56's slave?

That's just a few off the top of my head. I would really appreciate some answers, as I will gladly make a comprehensive guide to this and post it once I'm through.

RahgBag you are not all that far away. If you are ever heading up I-81 and want to stop by I'll show you my car.

The reason that there no concise "how to" LS1 swap thread as there are many differences of opinions. Threads such as yours have been tried before but always degenerated it to discussion and debate. Many of your questions can be answered by reading build logs of several cars and also information from Ls1tech. I would highly suggest reading everything you can on all the cars you can if you plan to do a swap.

Thaniel

[M5Hunter]

If you run solid (or nearly solid) motor mounts with the stock F-body oil pan, and you don't mind some vibrations that will rattle the car apart, you can run the stock booster/master cylinder.

I may be way off here, but IMO polyurethane mounts wont rattle your car apart. Using the stock booster is very possible In my case with the mounts I made, there is not much room between the valve cover and booster, but with a little notch cut out fo the valve cover I have all the room needed. Sure its another mod to have to do, but really with a project like this its just another pebble in the road.

[Fair]

I may be way off here, but IMO polyurethane mounts wont rattle your car apart. Using the stock booster is very possible In my case with the mounts I made, there is not much room between the valve cover and booster, but with a little notch cut out fo the valve cover I have all the room needed. Sure its another mod to have to do, but really with a project like this its just another pebble in the road.

Yea, we've run LS1s in these cars with poly mounts and even solid mounts with no ill effects. Everyone said it would rattle our teeth apart, but you're spot on - it didn't. Even with solid motor mounts and a 12 pound aluminum flywheel... no issues. That setup on a BMW 4 or 6 cylinder would rattle your brain apart... but more cylinders means better harmonics.

My very first LS1 location/iteration had the motor centered and I relocated the booster, but by the 3rd iteration the booster was back in the stock location. It only takes a ~3/4" lateral engine offset to allow the booster to stay there with stock height valve covers. Only the tallest, craziest aftermarket valve covers need more room - and only the craziest shaft rockers even need taller valve overs. We had pretty standard 1.9 ratio shaft rockers on our 7 liter motor and they fit under the stock LS1 valve covers...

[MikeJTR]

I may be way off here, but IMO polyurethane mounts wont rattle your car apart. Using the stock booster is very possible In my case with the mounts I made, there is not much room between the valve cover and booster, but with a little notch cut out fo the valve cover I have all the room needed. Sure its another mod to have to do, but really with a project like this its just another pebble in the road.

Hi,
Like everybody and their brother, I too, am working on an E36 LSx swap.

I'm also an old guy (even older than Rao), so your definition of vibration may be different than my definition of vibration. When I was younger, my father would complain that my cars were too noisy and rode too rough. Now, (30 years later) I am behaving like my father.

I like the threads by Fair, Thaniel, Rao, and 357i, because they all show different ways of doing the swap for different purposes. Fair is the most race oriented, Rao is the most street oriented.

With that being said, how much clearance do you have between the brake booster and the stock valve cover?

[M5Hunter]

I centered my engine and have it as low as possible, i would say there is 1/8" of air between the stock valve cover and the booster. Like I said, I notched my stock valve cover and have around 1/2" now The torque of the motor will actually move it further away under acceleration. BTW: I like your work and have bought RX7 parts from you for my last project.

[MikeJTR]

I centered my engine and have it as low as possible, i would say there is 1/8" of air between the stock valve cover and the booster. Like I said, I notched my stock valve cover and have around 1/2" now The torque of the motor will actually move it further away under acceleration. BTW: I like your work and have bought RX7 parts from you for my last project.

Did you tilt the motor so that the driver's side valve cover is higher than the passenger's side valve cover?

The reason I ask, is that even with the engine offset towards the passenger's side by 3/4", we found it necessary to tilt the engine about 2 degrees to get "adequate" booster clearance when using rubber motor mounts. My definition of "adequate" clearance is about 3/4"

(For those who aren't familiar with the brake booster/valve cover clearance problems, the interference occurs on the side of the booster, not the bottom).

[RahgBag]

Small update: I was in DFW this week and Terry was kind enough to let me stop by and see some of his operation. It was really informative to see all the parts and hear him describe in person how it all works.

I'm going to order the Vorshlag kit when it becomes available. The mounts solve the booster problem and the headers, driveshaft, TOB, and steering shaft all look top quality.

For the engine I'll be using an LS1 from a 99-02 Camaro with the T56. I'll be using a pretty lightweight flywheel, probably for the C5 corvette. I'll definitely give a thorough review about the NVH with this setup, but I'm pretty confident that it won't be a problem even for a street car.

For the exhaust, it'll be a Y-pipe into a single cat, then a muffler. I don't know how long of a muffler I want yet or if I'm going to use a resonator.

That's it for now. My next big research endeavor will be into the specifics of the wiring.

[TH3 Shifty]

if you use a single cat.. and single exhaust pipe... i would go with at least a 3.5" cat/exhaust so it can breath... ive built many LS1 engines.. and have a lotof experience with LSx stuff.