Rubbing-ticking vibration after timing chain tensioner install--with AUDIO

[TigerGT]

Bump!

Noise is still around. Been 2 weeks. Hasn't changed much, but sounds more like a sewing machine now. Good audio of the noise from under the hood is here (revved from the throttle cable up to 2500 rpms or so):
http://www.tarmacspecialist.com/av/underhood.m4a


Noise is a combination ticking/metalic vibration, seems to increase/decrease with RPMs, just spent a while sifting through all the ticking threads, but I'm assuming recent install caused it. Two weeks ago installed:
-Timing chain tensioner (the new style)
-Valve cover gasket
-Oil change with Mobil 1 10w30 (possible culprit, not sure what PO used)
-Also put new NGK spark plugs in

What I know--
INSTALL
--I made sure the chain tensioner prongs fit correctly on the guide. Since I had the valve cover off I could see where they met up.
--I did not think to coat the new tensioner with any oil
--Valve cover was off for approx an hour while old oil drained.
--The socket I had for the tensioner did not fit with my torque wrench (too big, ha!), so I ended up tightening with a wrench. I've checked it twice since and have not had to tighten. I'm not a big guy and its very unlikely its over-tightened.

NOISE
--Started on first drive following install
--Partial throttle from 1800-3000rpms is when noise is most prominent
--Present, but less noticeable when cold, very noticeable when warm
--No noise at idle or <1500rpms (warm or cold)
--No noise at WOT

Oil weight too thin?
Tensioner somehow in the wrong way?
Valve cover off too long and some components dried out?

THANKS!

[amdspitfire]

everyones gonna say change your oil, but it's not the reason for your noise, just keep driving the car I bet you it will go away

[turbosporttsi]

I feel your pain... I have had a rattle that sounds like Chewbacca since forever, though mine is most prominent when holding RPMs between ~2.5k-3k. You can feel it in the VANOS if you hold your hand there.

I just rebuilt the VANOS with the seal/o-ring and the rattle fix, then went ahead and installed a new secondary chain tensioner and upper chain guide.

Absolutely zero change in the rattle.


It's interesting that yours started after the primary tensioner install. The symptoms of a worn primary tensioner is a rattle between ~1800-3000 RPM during deceleration, IIRC.

I hope you figure this out... I have a feeling that your issue might point me in the right direction as well. Yours sounds similar, though it does it a bit more than mine... it's hard to tell from your audio, however.

In the event that our rattle is the same thing, I will be sure to post in this thread if I ever figure mine out. Good luck.

[TigerGT]

Hah, chewbacca is a great way to describe this noise. That's exactly it. I had the decell clack clack noise too which is what prompted the tensioner changeout. It was always about 2000 and below but only on decell, not accell. Now the noises have flipped. Bastards.

Could the properly performing tensioner (assuming it's not a bad part...) be putting stress on another failing part in the timing chain picture? I know the timing chains are supposed to last until my teeth fall out, but what else is left?

Thanks for the input guys, keep em coming!

Is there a noise associated with the upper tensioner failing? Wish I would have taken a better picture of it from the side, but here is the snapshot when I changed the gasket:

[Moron95M3]

did you make sure to put the new tensioner in correctly. I know you need it turned the correct way. I think Pelican's DIY article says you may hear a lot of noise if it's in incorrectly. GL! I did mine last summer and noticed less noise.

[TigerGT]

I put it in so that the two prongs were on each side of the guide.

[turbosporttsi]

From what I have gathered, a worn upper tensioner sounds a lot like (and is often mistaken for) VANOS rattle... which is why I replaced it when I did the VANOS.

Unfortunately, other things sound like the VANOS rattle as well.


EDIT: Hmm... I wonder if maybe it is a lower chain guide rail. The new tensioner would presumably be putting more pressure on the chain, and if the guide rail has grooves worn in it from the sides of the chain, maybe the center parts of the chain are what's hitting the guide rail and making the noise.

Not sure if that's the case with my car, because I just replaced the upper guide rail and still seem to be feeling the vibration right at the VANOS itself... but who knows. Maybe it's one of the lower rails.

[amdspitfire]

Originally Posted by TigerGT

I put it in so that the two prongs were on each side of the guide.

the new tensioner doesn't have those prongs anymore

[TigerGT]

Maybe we're talking about different prongs, but it was the one piece part and it did have prongs where it meets the guide

edit:

This is the one I installed:


This is the old one:

[Moron95M3]

^^Sounds like it should be fine then. Same exact situation I had.

Dumb question: I couldn't tell from the sound file, but does it rattle while stationary if you rev it up (basically are you sure it's not tranny/clutch related?)

Next dumb, but simple one, how much oil did you put in? Are you sure it's plenty full?
I know these are dumb and obvious, but I know I miss simple things at times.

[BMWMPow3r]

link don't work.

[TigerGT]

Yea, it rattles if I rev it stationary too. Here is a much more clear audio file I took yesterday from underneath the hood. This is stationary revving to approx. 2500rpm. Clip starts out at idle. There is a noise in clip during idle I can't hear normally.

clip:
http://www.tarmacspecialist.com/av/underhood.m4a

I put in 7 full liters, and I've checked it every other day since the gasket change. It's been at the 1/2 mark in between the notches each time.

[TigerGT]

Bump!

[Balthazarr]

Originally Posted by TigerGT

Yea, it rattles if I rev it stationary too. Here is a much more clear audio file I took yesterday from underneath the hood. This is stationary revving to approx. 2500rpm. Clip starts out at idle. There is a noise in clip during idle I can't hear normally.

clip:
http://www.tarmacspecialist.com/av/underhood.m4a

I put in 7 full liters, and I've checked it every other day since the gasket change. It's been at the 1/2 mark in between the notches each time.

7 litres would be over 7 qts; are you sure it was litres?

[TigerGT]

You're right, it was quarts. Have checked it every other day since and it's rock solid at center of the two notches.

[LuxoM3]

FWIW - my 1995 makes THE exact same noise... and I have...

1. NEW Tensioners - primary and secondary
2. Stock Old Vanos (car pulled 230hp on the DYNO so, still working)

I started getting this noise about 7500 miles ago when I changed from Castrol 10w-30 to Mobil 10w-40. Going to run Castrol 10w-30 to see if difference.

[BMWMPow3r]

did you use the s52 chain tensioner?

[TigerGT]

Thought about that, but checked the p/n's again and it's the for the S50. I think the non-pronged one was for the S52.

LuxoM3, that makes me feel a little better on the whole 'I hope I'm not f'ing up my car' question.

Changed the oil again tonight to some 15w40 to see if it has any effect. After more reading about the mobil 1 10w30 decided it was the cheapest and most likely first fix. I'll give it a few days of DD'ing to see if there's any change.

Listened to the noise again from under the hood while revving and it sounds like something starts to come loose on the left side of the valve cover. I'll retorque all the valve cover bolts tomorrow just in case...

WOW! Changed out the oil to a 15w40 and already a noticeable decrease in noise...like almost gone. That's after only one 15 mile round trip. I anticipate it'll go away completely in the next few days.

No more mobil 1 10w30 in this engine.

[graphikg]

Oil? Thats the answer to this problem? Mine only makes the noise at startup when cold (not when hot) and goes away after 5-1o seconds. When its warm, it doesnt make a peep. I already replaced the tensioner to the new style one and no change.

[TigerGT]

Nope, unfortunately the noise came back the next day (WTF?) and has been just as bad. It may be my imagination, but it seems to be louder in the cold weather startups. And it is basically the same noise even after warmup. I'm just going to have to take it in. I still haven't found a mechanic I trust around here though...

...and I'm sure it'll be something stupid...

[graphikg]

Awww hate to hear that... I was hoping you would give me a solution. Seems like we are both struggling with the same thing.

[pbonsalb]

If it was me, I would probably pull the valve cover and inspect. I would pull the fan clutch and rotate the crank with a socket and watch the chain. I would consider pulling the big tensioner and putting my finger in there as an alternative tensioner and rotating the crank again. I might even swap back the old tensioner to see if that makes a difference. I might disassemble the tensioner to inspect (needs oil inside to work properly). I suppose you could crank one down so hard that it distorted the metal enough to affect the guts. I would try to inspect the rails, but visibility is limited.

I would rule out the oil. BMW specs 5W30 synthetic and people have run Castrol 0W30 without issues. Mobil oil does tend to be on the thin side. I would also rule out the valve cover having been off too long and something drying out. That is not an issue.

[TigerGT]

Thanks for the tips. A few quick Qs for you,

-I'll want to drain the oil before taking the tensioner out correct (oil was already out when I did it before so not sure how much would drain out the lower tensioner hole)?

-When you say the new tensioner needs oil to work, do you mean oil on the contact point with the rail, or some other place?

-Swapping the old tensioner would be a great start, too bad I already tossed it (that wasn't a question... ). Any other ways I could test the new one?

Random thoughts: My M3 has 150k miles on it now and a totally unknown service history (I've had it since 136k) Every time I schedule time to work on the car I figure I should be replacing as many parts as possible. Should I replace the upper tensioner, vanos (drvanos), during the diagnostic time (considering they could be part of the problem and are probably nearing death anyway) or should I focus instead on just the diagnosis operating under the premise that the more parts I replace at once the more difficult it may be to diagnose a new problem. If I should be replacing these parts, what others do you recommend I do while I have the valve cover off?

I don't have a garage and have to plan these jobs a few weeks in advance.

[pbonsalb]

The oil pan is much further down. Draining the oil will make no difference at the tensioner level. A tiny bit of oil may come out but it is unavoidable. The tensioner pumps up with oil. Squeeze it manually and you will hear it gurgle and oil may spill out. Maybe for some reason it is not getting filled by oil pressure. I would fix the current problem before confusing the issue with other parts. Preventative maintenance is good in my opinion, but others wait until something fails. But when you are trying to identify a particular problem, randomly replacing parts is not usually the best way. I would want to know which part was the problem. People do replace the upper tensioner as well, but you can tell easily whether it works or not -- it is spring loaded so just press down to see if the spring still works. Rebuilding the Vanos is also good. You can DIY this with new seals for about $40. Search for Beisan and Vanos and you should find the instructions. If you want to pay someone to do this for you, the Dr. Vanos rebuild is good. You still have to remove and install and time the cams and this is the hardest part. I like the Dr. Vanos stage II instructions, available in pdf form at Chris' website.
Probably around 150k, a Vanos rebuild will be needed. Could be sooner, could be later. Sometimes the headgasket goes around that mileage and that is a great opportunity to do a whole lot of work . . . .

[TigerGT]

PB, thanks for taking the time to explain these things. You can tell my diagnostic experience is low. Will take another approach in the next week to test the tensioner to see if it bubbles like you're talking about. If it doesn't bubble, then it probably doesn't build enough pressure to extend the tensioner enough to provide the tension against rail/chain. Would this be an indicator of a faulty oil pump?