04 325 ci oil help

[04325coupe]

Hi everyone...

In a bit of a panic here.. and want to know what the "proper" procedure is on oil levels. I have read many different things.. and am looking for the "right" answer!


Here is what I did:

First thing this morning, I got into my car (sitting all night) and drove to the gas station (just down the road 2-mi). and filled up. I checked the oil and it looked LOW. It was barely on the center mark on the stick. hummmmm

Then I drove to work (about 12-mi) and after I got to work, I made sure it was parked level, and I went out and checked it again (after sitting for 10-min) and it was perfect in the middle, and looked okay.

My friend says that when it is checked in the early AM, it is always going to read low?? But, logically when I think about it.. I would imagine it would read higher.. because all the oil would be sitting in the pan? Thus, oil readings after the engine is "warm" might read lower because more of the oil is now in the engine. The dip stick is measuring whats in the pan.. ??

So, taking a oil reading first thing in the AM, would make sense to me to see what the "true" oil level is?

I am confused.

: (

- T

[tdz123]

Oil expands as it heats up.

[04325coupe]

I guess I am still not understanding how oil expansion relates to my question...

I really am learning this from the ground up...

What even made me go and check the oil...was the other day I shut off the car.. and the oil light come on the dash! It was yellow and not red? I guess it has two colors? Anyway.. it was on the dash even after the key was removed from the car!! (is this normal?) I placed the key back in the car, started it up.. and shut it off.. light is gone. I have not ever seen that happen, and it has not come back?

- T

[danewilson77]

OK.....the important thing is....and I don't think it's worth you getting wrapped around the axles on....is that your oil level should be near the mid mark.....when hot...or cold. When you change you oil, it should recieve 6.9 quarts. Also IMHO, level trend is more important than raw level. If your near the mid...all the time with very minimal change....you're good. If you notice a constant downward trend, then corrective action needs to be take (leak identified, etc...). Also, when you're changing your oil, let's say you only got 6.5 quarts of oil in your car? What would this indicate? Possible sludge build up issue.

So, what I am saying....in a nutshell, is that as long as you're near the mid, with no trend down or up....you are ok.....and should worry about better things like modding your car....lol

[04325coupe]

I forgot to mention...

What made me look at the level, was over the weekend I drove the car on a bit of a longer trip then my normal driving.. and when I got home.. I shut off the car, and when I did the yellow oil light came on the dash, and stayed on after I took out the key! I put the key back in and re-started the car.. it went off.. and I re-shit off the car.. and it stayed off...

hummm?

I am still on the CPO service plan.. and I get the "free oil service" every 15K Which I know is toooo long.. so I do it every 7500K Right now I am around 6200K on the last oil change.. ?

[GunnerNell]

dane's right, of course, as usual, but I'm a little more OCD than he is -- I want my oil level to be at the top, and I'll put in 2 ounces just to get it back up there, if necessary.

Anyway, oil doesn't expand enough when warm to make any noticeable difference in the level readings. I agree with you that morning readings should be as accurate as any. In your case, I suspect your car wasn't exactly level -- front to back/left to right -- when you first looked at it or when that light came on after driving, which was before the oil 'came down' from the top side after you turned off the engine. If you're not trending down, as dane says, top that sucker off with a few ounces and save your worrying for something else.

[04325coupe]

Yep, your right the car was parked on a "slight" down grade. (front of car was just a little lower then back).

Humm... well here it is 10:35AM my car was parked level at work (here now) at around 8:30AM. Should the level be accurate now? The car was driven 12-miles (highway) from cold this morning to work.

- T

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by danewilson77

OK.....the important thing is....and I don't think it's worth you getting wrapped around the axles on....is that your oil level should be near the mid mark.....when hot...or cold.

Originally Posted by GunnerNell

Anyway, oil doesn't expand enough when warm to make any noticeable difference in the level readings.

From 60F to 212F your oil will increase around 7 percent in volume. My car, if I'm not mistaken, has 6.9qts of oil in it. 6.9qrts expanded by 7% gives you .483 qrts greater volume. That's half a quart and you will see a difference in measurements. This is why you are supposed to let your engine heat and then settle before measuring oil. This is also why OP's friend told him that his oil would read low in the morning (i.e. after sitting all night and cooling off).

[GunnerNell]

7% -- I rest my case. Anyway, yes, after two hours, you should get an accurate reading on level ground. If it were mine, I'd top it off and have no more oil level issues until the next change.

[danewilson77]

Totally agree with Gunner. If mine is not absolutely in the middle....I put it there......I was only trying to convey....."I wouldn't be in a panic"...that's all.

Great point TDZ....agreed.....and also great data to back it up..

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by GunnerNell

7% -- I rest my case. Anyway, yes, after two hours, you should get an accurate reading on level ground. If it were mine, I'd top it off and have no more oil level issues until the next change.

you don't think half a quart makes a difference in you reading? You are nuts!


The difference between the top line and the bottom line is exactly one quart, if I'm not mistaken. That means the difference between taking a reading when cold and when hot just about half of the range.

Originally Posted by danewilson77

Totally agree with Gunner. If mine is not absolutely in the middle....I put it there......I was only trying to convey....."I wouldn't be in a panic"...that's all.

Great point TDZ....agreed.....and also great data to back it up..

Don't get me wrong. I'm no chemist and I haven't done any tests. In my mind, it's just common sense that oil expands and contracts -- like most things -- when it heats and cools (keep in mind that freezing something is different than simply cooling it . . . no crystalization involved).

[danewilson77]

Originally Posted by tdz123

you don't think half a quart makes a difference in you reading? You are nuts!


The difference between the top line and the bottom line is exactly one quart, if I'm not mistaken. That means the difference between taking a reading when cold and when hot just about half of the range.

I don't think that's what he meant....

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by danewilson77

I don't think that's what he meant....

you might be right.

in any case, the thing to remember is that after you heat the oil, you have got to let it drain back down into the oil pan. I'd guess 5 minutes min.

BTW, my method is exactly what our owner manuals tell us to do:

Checking oil level

1. Park the vehicle on a level surface
2. Switch the engine off after it has
reached normal operating temperature
3. After approx. 5 minutes, pull the
dipstick out and wipe it off with a
clean lint-free cloth, paper towel, or
similar material
4. Carefully push the dipstick all the
way into the guide tube and pull it
out again
5. The oil level should be between the
two marks on the dipstick.
As with fuel economy, oil consumption
is directly influenced by your driving
style and vehicle operating conditions.
The oil volume between the two marks
on the dipstick corresponds to approx.
1.1 US quarts (1 liter). Do not fill beyond
the upper mark on the dipstick. Excess

oil will damage the engine.

[04325coupe]

Alright, I check the level now at work.. (sitting for 2 hours) and the level is perfect in the middle.. hummmmm..

Why in the world would I have gotten the yellow light after taking the key our this weekend?

I looked in my manual.. the yellow light on after key removal says.. to add some some oil soon.. vs. Yellow oil light on while driving = oil at bare min level add now.

?

I did take a little bit of a trip with the car that day.. (more then the normal commute) maybe this had something to do with it?

At any rate.. why is the resting level after warm (today at work) now showing perfect level?

See why I am confused?

[GunnerNell]

I'm not sure what I meant or what I think I meant or what you think or thought I meant or... where was I?

All I know is that after driving and checking/changing my oil for 46 years, I've never seen any difference on a dipstick, foreign or domestic, automotive or small motor, between cold morning or hot-driven readings. And even though I know not to overfill, I've always kept it topped up, and I've never had any issues of too much oil damaging my engines. That's my only evidence, but my experience is more persuasive to me than is your logic. [I don't disagree with your underlying bases, btw. That is, I am well aware that stuff generally expands with heat (except for ice you know -- water expands when you freeze it), just your conclusion.] So... However, let's go back to what we all seem to agree upon -- the freakin' car should be level when you check the oil if you want to get a true reading. 'Kay?

Oh, and OP, have a look at what tdz and I both said above --> when you drive the car, some of the oil gets up into the camshaft troughs (I'm sure that's not the proper name for 'em -- the oil gets up into the bowels of the engine) and it takes a few minutes for it to drain back down into the oil pan where your oil-level sensor is. I think that, and the non-level stance, explains your first yellow light.

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by GunnerNell

That is, I am well aware that stuff generally expands with heat (except for ice you know -- water expands when you freeze it), just your conclusion.]

That's why I said there's a difference between cooling something and freezing it.

Originally Posted by tdz123

Don't get me wrong. I'm no chemist and I haven't done any tests. In my mind, it's just common sense that oil expands and contracts -- like most things -- when it heats and cools (keep in mind that freezing something is different than simply cooling it . . . no crystalization involved).

When you freeze water it crystalizes and the crystals expand. When you cool water without freezing it, it doesn't.

Science is more persuasive to me than your anecdotal evidence.

[GunnerNell]

Science? What science? I don't see any science in this thread, other than the physical law that we have agreed upon -- that stuff usually expands when heated.* ** What you call my "anecdotal evidence" is based upon my observations, and I'm willing to wager your next tank of gas that I've been observing this stuff a lot longer than you have. I note, too, Mr. Observationist, that unlike my own observations, you have not claimed that your observations have ever shown you a higher level reading when the oil is hot over when it is cold. That was really my only point -- even when hot, oil doesn't expand ENOUGH to cause a significantly higher reading on the dipstick. Do all the calculations and cogitation you want to -- I've never seen it. Have you? But really, are we really disagreeing so much here? ***

* Just for shits and giggles, I'd be interested in how you arrived at the figure of a 7% increase in volume based on heating.

** I admit that you weren't talking about freezing anything. My OCD nature compelled me to throw into that sentence the only unique thing about which I am aware that is counter to what I was saying -- that stuff expands when heated. It's irrelevant, I know.

*** BTW, also not the subject here, but I'm sure we both have seen significant differences in the expansion of motor oil and ATF, which expands significantly when it's hot.

[danewilson77]

ok...hang on boys......I think the OP's problem has nothing to do with oil level and has everything to do with the sludge that may be built up around the oil level sensor (or possibly could be failing). At your next oil change, replace the sensor, and I bet your yellow light never comes in again....as long as your oil level stays solid....

As far as level varying a lil bit between NOT(Normal Operating Temperature) and shutdown....that's life.....

We just changed out Jason's a couple of months agao....because it was intermitentally coming and going off, with no precense of level change and he hasn't had the problem since....

[GunnerNell]

Aw c'mon, dane. It was just gettin' to be fun! (Stay dry, Bro.... and hey, Happy Veteran's Day!)

[danewilson77]

Yeah....the weather is complete ass today (and I guess tomorrow, and the next day). Getting ready to walking out to my car and not looking forward to it...other than I get to go home, after missing last night...hehe.

Hey, Happy Veterans day to you too! You are a model Citizen Soldier!!!!!!

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by GunnerNell

Science? What science? I don't see any science in this thread, other than the physical law that we have agreed upon -- that stuff usually expands when heated.* ** What you call my "anecdotal evidence" is based upon my observations, and I'm willing to wager your next tank of gas that I've been observing this stuff a lot longer than you have. I note, too, Mr. Observationist, that unlike my own observations, you have not claimed that your observations have ever shown you a higher level reading when the oil is hot over when it is cold. That was really my only point -- even when hot, oil doesn't expand ENOUGH to cause a significantly higher reading on the dipstick. Do all the calculations and cogitation you want to -- I've never seen it. Have you? But really, are we really disagreeing so much here? ***

* Just for shits and giggles, I'd be interested in how you arrived at the figure of a 7% increase in volume based on heating.

** I admit that you weren't talking about freezing anything. My OCD nature compelled me to throw into that sentence the only unique thing about which I am aware that is counter to what I was saying -- that stuff expands when heated. It's irrelevant, I know.

*** BTW, also not the subject here, but I'm sure we both have seen significant differences in the expansion of motor oil and ATF, which expands significantly when it's hot.

First of all, anecdotal evidence is by definition evidence based on an individual's observation. You could say the two are synonomous so don't get all offended.

Second, as to the "science" you are asking for I couldn't dig up the reports and findings from my scientific research so I figured this picture would satisfy you that my 7% figure is indeed based on reliable and generally accepted scientific practices:



From this picture I think it's pretty clear that we're talking about some seriously serious science.

[04325coupe]

okay... LOL... this post got very crazy...

I have inspection II in 1,300mi. I will have them deal with it then. For now, the oil level seems fine, and the car runs great. I have never had any issues with it. Probably a funny sensor or something?

Just for fun I will make sure my car is "flat" tonight, and see what the oil says in the AM before I start it up.

- T

[danewilson77]

Noice....and have them replace your oil level sensor!!!!

[04325coupe]

Yep, will do...

I just went out and checked it again.. (its been sitting since I got back from lunch four hours ago) Level is perfect and in the middle. Car is on level ground.

- T

[danewilson77]

Yup...the sensor is failing....I'm telling you man