96 328is vs 03-05 350z

[creeves328]

1996 328is
M3 Cat-Back
M50 Manifold
JBR 10lb Flywheel w/OEM Sachs 328 clutch
Intake mods = TB OBD-II ridges removed, bypassed water circulation. Intake = 3" to 3" ID 90degree sweep (replaces elbow), 9"x7" conical cone w/3.5" bellhorned inlet, 3" ID PVC straight pipe (chamfered ends), and MAF has been removed (running open-loop). For airflow, low-pressure area behind front fascia for deflecting airflow toward cone (no heatshield currently, didn't need one for this run).

2740lbs -- Certified weight w/o driver, 2 gallons fuel. Time of this event, the weight was about the same.
15" stock radial wheels with 205/60/15, stock brakes/suspension.
Redline/Amsoil/Mobil 1 fluids


350z 6spd "DE"
18" Nismo wheels
Mods? Exhaust, no idea if anything else
+1 Passenger (160-170lbs estimate)

Conditions: 59F, dry, night, light traffic, 3-lane road

Sitting at a highway intersection on a lovely cool evening, I spotted a Daytona Blue 350z getting turning onto the offramp in front of me. My light went green just at the right time, so I caught up to see if he wants to run. He was in the left lane, myself in the middle and road speed was typically 45mph. To grab his attention, I did a 2nd gear WOT pass, jumped into 3rd gear and then started slowing down in 4th gear to pass some traffic. He took notice; he sped up to my speed and jumped behind me, however due to the traffic, the only lane available was the middle (mine).

Its on. I jumped back to 3rd gear @ 70mph and nailed it, taking notice I didn't immediately pull away (he's WOT as well). The road is now a fully clear 3 laner, but he continued to stay behind me to slipstream. Around the top of my 3rd gear, I could see he's losing ground to me. Shifted into 4th, kept it down. As we continued to increase speed, I kept getting slowly away and by 105-110mph, it became apparent he couldn't catch me. Mind you, he's slipstreaming me the entire time. By my indicated 115mph, I could tell he lifted. At the end of it all, I'd guess we had a 4 car lengths difference in total.

We chatted briefly afterwards. The driver said its "stock", I kinda chuckled at that seeing "Nismo" stickers on the front fenders, Nismo wheels. This was NOT a Nismo edition though. I do believe he had only light mods, the exhaust was quite audible. I gave them a little surprise when I said "Its a 328, not an M3".


So, a fair assessment of me vs him:

He's 2 CLs behind me @ 70mph (front bumper to front bumper), and ended @ ~4-5 CLs behind me @ 115mph. He had the advantage of drafting me the entire time, disadvantage of having to react to my WOT, and disadvantage of carrying a passenger.

I'd reckon if we were reacted at the same time, were side-by-side, and each alone, I would pull him 2 CLs from 70-110mph.

An interesting comparison to the 350z, is its cousin, the G35 Coupe. I ran a G35 Coupe 6spd earlier in the year and this 350z was obviously faster. Lower weight helps.

BTW.. Figured worth mentioning.. Some kill stories contain exaggeration, especially here, but my runs are honest accounts. Please take a look at my other threads (search me) under Kill stories for supportable material.

[bigbeansm3]

Nice kill, i know you have a nasty 328.

Running open loop?

What does that do to your A/Fs at full throttle?

[m3chaser]

Good work Creeves, but you and I both know this is going to be hard for many to swallow.

Have you ever made it to the track to see what traps and ET's your car is capable of? Oh and can you take a pic of your intake setup because that description was really confusing ahahaha.

[saint166]

nice kill . its to bad u didnt get the chance to go from 1st gear . i have only had the chance to race 2 350z and i won both times . did u notice much increase from the water bypass? ok im at 2900lbs what all did u do to get down to 2740 lbs .

p.s after he found out u have a 328 up against his 350z he prob took his car to the shop thinking there must be something wrong with it lol

[ltw97m3]

glad others have got a chance to hear about this run.
as for a/f with open loop they should have leaned out relative to stock and made power.

[minenotyours]

I raced a 350z, relatively stock with my 98' 740iL from 0-110, up a hill. The formation was the 350z was infront and I followed (back country road, hilly). It was a nice even start and by the time I hit 90mph, the race was dead even. I then let off a little to give him some room and then continued on til 110mph. By then, the bond cruiser was catching too much air, so I let off. The 350z continued on until 140mph. I later hit 130 mph and then I went over another small hill and had to punch the brakes (it takes a lot to stop 4500lbs from 130mph!). I later talked to the 350 owner and he was amazed that I kept up with him. I had recently had the engine retuned, which may of helped. By the time I got home, the car smelled like maple syrup. The car had over 150k miles on her.

[bigbeansm3]

Originally Posted by fishforlife

glad others have got a chance to hear about this run.
as for a/f with open loop they should have leaned out relative to stock and made power.

Thats what i would have thought, but normally open loop is seriously lean for WOT.

Are we talking 14:1 or higher?

[brandonmatthew]

You have some of the best written kill stories. Not sure if you already have one but a more aggressive lsd would probably do wonders for your acceleration.

[ltw97m3]

i may be wrong but its my understanding that stock fuel curve are hella rich and what makes the a/f lean out is the added velocity and less turbulence(i would think better atomization of fuel too) that chris's intake system allows the engine to see more air at each rpm than a stock setup. but because the fuel has stayed constant in both stock and new configuration the a/f go lean with the added air in the new setup. how lean i dont know, i have no empirical data. i run similar setup and i dont hear or feel my car pinging, this is not to say its not happening.
wait for someone qualified to confirm or deny what i have said because i may be completely wrong.
some off topic...but did you use to go out to hartford

[99AMGJ]

Not surprised, you're about 500lbs lighter then stock, and you're a bit modded. I'm guessing you might be able to hang even with a stock e46 m3. Maybe

[JWin]

Originally Posted by saint166

ok im at 2900lbs what all did u do to get down to 2740 lbs .

Replace your s52 with an m52.

[03basesedan]

Originally Posted by minenotyours

I raced a 350z, relatively stock with my 98' 740iL from 0-110, up a hill. The formation was the 350z was infront and I followed (back country road, hilly). It was a nice even start and by the time I hit 90mph, the race was dead even. I then let off a little to give him some room and then continued on til 110mph. By then, the bond cruiser was catching too much air, so I let off. The 350z continued on until 140mph. I later hit 130 mph and then I went over another small hill and had to punch the brakes (it takes a lot to stop 4500lbs from 130mph!). I later talked to the 350 owner and he was amazed that I kept up with him. I had recently had the engine retuned, which may of helped. By the time I got home, the car smelled like maple syrup. The car had over 150k miles on her.

Facepalm, now 740's are keeping with 350z's? Mmkay.

[bigbeansm3]

Originally Posted by fishforlife

i may be wrong but its my understanding that stock fuel curve are hella rich and what makes the a/f lean out is the added velocity and less turbulence(i would think better atomization of fuel too) that chris's intake system allows the engine to see more air at each rpm than a stock setup. but because the fuel has stayed constant in both stock and new configuration the a/f go lean with the added air in the new setup. how lean i dont know, i have no empirical data. i run similar setup and i dont hear or feel my car pinging, this is not to say its not happening.
wait for someone qualified to confirm or deny what i have said because i may be completely wrong.
some off topic...but did you use to go out to hartford

I'm guessing that question was directed towards me, and no, i haven't spent any time in Hartford.

I've never had a reason to be in Hartford....but they do have e85.

I really hope RI gets some e85 stations. $2 a gallon almost race fuel would be well worth the money to convert.

[HarcoM5]

Nice kill OP. Boooo 350z's. e46 m3 though?!? i dont know about that one.

[creeves328]

Originally Posted by 99AMGJ

Not surprised, you're about 500lbs lighter then stock, and you're a bit modded. I'm guessing you might be able to hang even with a stock e46 m3. Maybe

I think I'm around 250lbs lighter than stock, running around with just a few gallons and I'm around 330lbs lighter than stock. I do believe my 328 was just over 3000lbs stock w/full tank.

I did race an e46 M3 6spd before, and lost. They're fast, no doubt about it. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1221085

Originally Posted by saint166

nice kill . its to bad u didnt get the chance to go from 1st gear . i have only had the chance to race 2 350z and i won both times . did u notice much increase from the water bypass? ok im at 2900lbs what all did u do to get down to 2740 lbs .l

Thanks, this is what I did.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...7&postcount=32

Originally Posted by brandonmatthew

You have some of the best written kill stories. Not sure if you already have one but a more aggressive lsd would probably do wonders for your acceleration.

Thank you sir, very much appreciated!!

I kinda like my 2.93 gears, coupled with the light weight. Just curious on this, I did a drive, shifting based on where a 3.38 (or similar) gear would make my 6500rpm limit, it seems to me I'm shifting a little frequently. Certainty it would help acceleration, no doubts about it, but still like those 2.93's.

Originally Posted by 03basesedan

Facepalm, now 740's are keeping with 350z's? Mmkay.

Thanks for keeping it short. That guy is obviously throwing bait to get a war started. Let the bait rot.

All --- I always respect everyone and I expect the same in return. Let's make sure there isn't a bench racing war started in this thread, that sidetracks the entire purpose of the post. I appreciate it and regard those in agreement as gentlemen and dignitaries.

[creeves328]

Originally Posted by m3chaser

Oh and can you take a pic of your intake setup because that description was really confusing ahahaha.

Attached, but let me explain as well. The pic doesn't tell the story well..

a. The ridges are embedded on the throttle body's inner wall. They are just before the butterfly and rise to their peak (1mm) 90degrees perpendicular to the butterfly rod. They are also rather flat steps, which is bad for flow. BMW's e36 OBD II cars all have this incorporated to their OBD II TB design (other change was the rod/butterfly location). This helps for fuel economy at part throttle, by restricting flow, but it also creates turbulence. I removed these and could immediately feel a change at part throttle, nothing though at WOT.

b. The boot is a Quik Ell 3" ID to 3" ID 90degree bend from Home Depot. I removed the "flashing" marks in the boot, shortened the boot and removed some inner material (where it meets the PVC) to ensure similar dimensions throughout. The bend is less dramatic vs the stock elbow (and bigger), but its also less dramatic than the silicone boots you see most folks upgrading to.

**I do NOT like the 3.5" to 3" silicone boots most folks use. They change inner dimensions at the WORST possible area, which is at the bend, and the inner radius is WAY too sharp. Those silicone boots create tons of turbulence just before the TB, its not a good design (IMO).

c. The PVC is just a 3" ID straight pipe, and I use 3 different lengths (based on temperature). The lengths help for a resonance standpoint, and are matched (by amplitude to my ear and car's pull) for each temperature range. **In this pic, this is the LONG pipe**. The ends are chamfered to help with the step up/step down of the PVC's thickness.

The low pressure area is effective, but only to a point. At high speeds (unknown exactly what speed), the high pressure zone under the car extends too far back to allow much air inward. At this point, a boxed area (heat-shield) and inlet via the foglight area would work better.




SO.. How did this do on the dyno? I tested this intake on ZParker's car in Houston a few months ago. We only did 2rwhp more than his setup, but we had 5% more torque (equaling similar horsepower gain) through most of the RPM band. This is good. Most folks tend to go for peak HP numbers, but that doesn't necessarily mean faster acceleration. 5% more power through the band translates into faster acceleration.



Tires --- Something to mention here.. With 205/60/15's, a 2000rpm dig ends up being a wash. I always try to run from a roll, which I know isn't true to the drag racing spirit. The 2.93 is a open-diff, non-LSD, but both tires seem to receive power in a straight line.

[e30polak]

Nice run Chris!

I'm not surprised by the results, considering your weight and the fact that you got a slight jump on him. It must have been the first gen however, the newer model would've kept up much better.

[topnotch]

good kill man, sounds like you have a good running 328is, i hope my 325is will run similar performace once completed. Being a 350z owner (stock) i can say that you had a pretty good run, at least it was a highway run to rule out any possible "drivers race vs. cars race", (driver skill at launching ruins most of these threads with the variables being too high).

Not saying that this run would have turned out any different, but the 70mph pull is tough for a stock 350z to compete against a car that can out perform it, at least with the 03-06 model ("DE")where the redline is 6,700 rpms. 70mph is too fast for an 03-06 Z to be in 3rd gear to start a highway pull, which results in a 70mph pull to be forced at the beginning of 4th gear, which is surely not optimal for a 350z on the highway. I'm sure the Z owner was kicking himself in the ass later on by not getting you down to 60mph, which is the top of 3rd in a primo range of rpms for a good highway pull on a Z.

I have made multiple mph pulls on a e36 M3 (which either way out performs me), at 30 mph pulls (2nd gear), 50mph (3rd with good torque), 60mph (optimal top of 3rd), and 70mph (4th as described here), and even though throughout all the runs the outcome was the same (i lost...), the 60mph got me the best jump, if i can recall correctly it was probably about 2 car lengths better than the 70mph pull. (there may be footage of this lurking somewhere).

I am unsure where a e36 328is is @ 70mph when being pushed, but hopefully you were in similar rpm conditions as the Z to give an even comparison of car vs. car.

anywho, congradulations on a good kill , i suggest finding another z, and running him at a 60 roll, which if the same outcome were to return, than you'd truely have a stronger car. 350z owners who know about they're car understand that its not the beast their fender flares make it out to be.

[creeves328]

Originally Posted by topnotch

anywho, congradulations on a good kill , i suggest finding another z, and running him at a 60 roll, which if the same outcome were to return, than you'd truely have a stronger car. 350z owners who know about they're car understand that its not the beast their fender flares make it out to be.

Thank you sir. This is the first 350z 6spd I've ran so far, but I have ran a 350z Auto, G35 Coupe and G35 Sedan. The 350z auto was significantly slower than this 6spd, and probably slower than the G35 Sedan. I'd guess a lot is based on the option package selected, affecting the overall weight of the car.

350z/G35 owners, is that correct? I seem to recall the G35 Coupe could vary around 180lbs from one to another, same year, based on which package is selected??

Originally Posted by e30polak

Nice run Chris!

I'm not surprised by the results, considering your weight and the fact that you got a slight jump on him. It must have been the first gen however, the newer model would've kept up much better.

Thanks sir, agreed.

[topnotch]

Originally Posted by creeves328

Thank you sir. This is the first 350z 6spd I've ran so far, but I have ran a 350z Auto, G35 Coupe and G35 Sedan. The 350z auto was significantly slower than this 6spd, and probably slower than the G35 Sedan. I'd guess a lot is based on the option package selected, affecting the overall weight of the car.

350z/G35 owners, is that correct? I seem to recall the G35 Coupe could vary around 180lbs from one to another, same year, based on which package is selected??

this is correct yes, anything higher than the base gets heavier with the heated seats, etc etc. The track model i think maybe just as heavy as the touring but has wheels that weight 10lbs less each which help it out quite a bit. The nismo's are much heavier when you get into the 07-08 models. G35's are slower than 350Z's all the way around.

the auto 350z's are slower on highway pulls but rull out most of the driver error with a "from-a-dig" drag race, and typically run quicker than an in-expirenced Z driver with a 6spd. My Z (touring model, heaviest) with me in it weighed 3188lbs, with the spare tire, truck matting, rear interior plastics removed, etc.

cheers.

[I Love My Car]

are you the kid with the white 350 and black rims? that i see driving around all the time. Op good kill M52 power FTW!

[topnotch]

Originally Posted by I Love My Car

are you the kid with the white 350 and black rims? that i see driving around all the time. Op good kill M52 power FTW!

no, but i know who your talking about, he's got the white z with the black enkei rpf1's, single exit exhaust, and the jdm tails, i've seen him up at the berlin turnpike a few times.

i have the sunset lemans orange 350Z, let me run your 328 LOL

[I Love My Car]

im down i got my snows on so from a digg is gunna suck on my part. Where and when?

[creeves328]

Since this thread is starting to die off, I figured I'd add something less obvious to readers....

Most folks tend to add engine performance with larger wheels/tires. This typically counteracts straight line performance, in the form of heavier wheels/tires. I read a magazine test years ago showing 1/2 sec loss over the 1/4 mile by going "plus 1 or 2" on 140hp Sentra. The result was technically stated, but the end result was something all should take to heart. The more rotational mass you have, the more power it takes to accelerate it. The same holds true today.

If I had M3 Wheels on my 328is. this race may have resulted in a draw. Think about it.

I'm going to stick with what I got, 15" very light wheels/tires/brakes.


BTW.... The TopNotch vs I Love My Car... --- My money is on TopNotch. 3188lbs WITH driver is just hard to beat by any measure!!! The Fish-Man being buds with Top-Notch helps influence this direction too!!

[bigbeansm3]

Originally Posted by creeves328

BTW.... The TopNotch vs I Love My Car... --- My money is on TopNotch. 3188lbs WITH driver is just hard to beat by any measure!!! The Fish-Man being buds with Top-Notch helps influence this direction too!!

Hopefully they go through with it...and bring a camera