S4 vs 330xi? Opinions welcome...

[carwiz008]

I'm giving up the GTI for something with a little more pep, and more importantly: awd.
I ski, alot, as in 3 times a week. I go to Mt Hood, where there is rarely more than a light dusting on the roads, usually 2-3 inches. Unfortunately, I found that my fwd was not up to par.


The two cars I am considering are the 2001 330xi and the 2001 s4. (I am open to other suggestions, however)
My price range is $12000
The comarison is as follows. Around the same blue book, miles, years, and as far as I am concerned, luxury.
S4 has 40 more hp and better(?) AWD system, bmw is more reliable (acc. to consumer reports)


I like the bmw's looks better, both interior and exterior.
Also, having had a 1.8t and an e30, I am partial to the smooth power of bmw over the s4's boost

I will be passing the car on within a year to my brother, who wants an automatic, and I don't plan on modding at all, save maybe suspenion. (handling first, appearance second)

What things should I look out for on either one, and which would be better as a ski car?
Pros and cons for each?
I understand I will get a biased opinon from here, but it's hard to reach a complete audience in one place, so I'm also posting in fourtitude forum. Please keep it mature, guys

[slvrXI]

You need a Stage 3 S4, let me know.. for sale. We'll call it $16.5k for you... Everythings been done, it needs nothing, runs perfect, professionally tuned. Big brake kit, K04s, THE WORKS! In the pics you will see a cage and race seats, all have been removed and restored to factory interior...







Seriously tho, I would go with 330 ZHP package... But you can't find one in your price range or in AWD, so go S4, but then you need to maintain it and it will cost you more. IDK stick with an E36 M3 if all you have is 12k... You can find a clean one for cheap and mod it for less than 12k...

[ago]

AWD is good, although not nearly as important as your tires. I suggest that you get some studded snows no matter which car you get. Remember AWD may get you going faster on slick roads, but it does not make your car stop any quicker then the next.

I think this is why you often see SUV's off the road in greater numbers then other cars, they feel more of a false since of security and drive faster then the conditions allow. (My opinion/observation)

I too am a snow lover, so I got both AWD AND I bought some

hakkapeliitta

Google: hakkapeliitta

5's off cl for $380 almost new. ($1,100 new)

As far as the rest goes, Audi's you will like to drive it and it is nice, there will always be something to fix. Not that Bimmers are honda reliable, just less issues then Audi's on the whole. Of course I am biased

Whatever you get I am sure that it will be the right one for you. Drive & ski safe.

[slvrXI]

Originally Posted by ago

AWD is good, although not nearly as important as your tires. I suggest that you get some studded snows no matter which car you get. Remember AWD may get you going faster on slick roads, but it does not make your car stop any quicker then the next.

I think this is why you often see SUV's off the road in greater numbers then other cars, they feel more of a false since of security and drive faster then the conditions allow. (My opinion/observation)

I too am a snow lover, so I got both AWD AND I bought some hakkapeliitta 5's off cl for $380 almost new. ($1,100 new)

As far as the rest goes, Audi's you will like to drive it and it is nice, there will always be something to fix. Not that Bimmers are honda reliable, just less issues then Audi's on the whole. Of course I am biased

Whatever you get I am sure that it will be the right one for you. Drive & ski safe.

Well said.

[tdz123]

The stock ko3 turbos fail on the b5 s4's. That's one reason why there are actually quite a few stage 3 s4s around. The turbos are going to cost you in the neighborhood of $7000 to be replaced with stock turbos.

Typically I am against buying highly modded cars, but the s4 would probably be the exception. SlvrXI's stg III ^^^^ has ko4's which don't fail like the ko3's from what i've heard. His car is probably more reliable, and is for sure way faster, than a stock s4. His is also a nice color. Actually, the only thing I don't like about it is that it's not an avant. Anyway, if you are going to go the s4 route, take whatever car you're going to buy and add about $7000 to the selling price to see where you'll end up after they fail.

SlvrXI: did you upgrade the oil lines to the turbos?

Anyway, for me all of this makes the S4 prohibitively expensive to own. This BMW has been expensive enough and it has no huge, super-expensive failure waiting to happen. Altho I've had shitty luck with one of my front axles.

As to the e46 XI: cooling system and CV boots. Neither are a big deal if you take care of them before they break.

[Julian]

330xi unless you really truly enjoy working on cars that were designed to torment the mechanic that is working on it. If you're set on the S4, make sure you get one that hasn't been modified in it's past or present, my buddy has a B5 S4 that is just turning 100k and its been one thing after another that he has to fix. Some are related to mods and some (most) are just the car.

[threethirtyxi]

I love both of these cars, but they are two different beasts. But since you don't have any plans to mod the car, you're going for an automatic, and handling is important to you, my advice would be to go for the 330xi. Even stock S4's can have their turbos fail early in the game, and like people have mentioned, it's not just the K03's that cause headaches. On the up side, the S4's alcantara interior option is pretty sweet.

Here's a thread posted a few weeks back that debates a similar topic:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1329851

Good luck!

[carwiz008]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I guess I don't understand why the ko3 would be notorious for failing on the s4. My stock turbo on my GTI is a ko3s and it's been running strong for 60k with plenty of abuse.

Studs aren't an option for me- I don't want to change my wheels 6 times a week because I'm not going to drive studs on the dry pavement around town.

tdz123's response was the most helpful, outlining common weakspots on the e46. Any input about the awd system? IIRC, it has limited slip diffs and is 38/62 rear biased?

[GR330ZHP]

Meh its a hard choice for me but I will say this:

All you guys talking bad about S4s reliability, dont get me wrong a fair share of them have issues, but I know a guy wih a 2001 S4 Avant with mileage in the 260k range on stock K03s and the car is in 100% mechanical condition. BUT t has been maintained religiously, thats the thing, you just gotta find a car that has been previously maintained. I am a big Audi fan and S4 fan as well but I am a bigger BMW fan.

As for your choices, so will you be getting an automatic if im correct? If so, and since you dont want to mod, I would go with the 330xi. BMW's inline 6 is incredible, plenty of power, insane reliability and great balance. The Audi's Quattro AWD is better and my opinion the interior is nicer as well, but handling and drive of the BMW is hard to match. I have a 330i ZHP and in the summer I drive the thing everywhere, it has been so reliable, granted I do maintain it. Although before the ZHP I had a 2000 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro and that was the same way, put tons of mileage on it and never did a check engine light come on, but I maintain my cars as well, my sister now has the A4 and it is still to this day bulletproof...

Either way they are both great cars its just a matter of making sure you find a good example. Also if you are getting an automatic, make sure it is in good operating condition.

Good luck with your search

Originally Posted by carwiz008

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I guess I don't understand why the ko3 would be notorious for failing on the s4. My stock turbo on my GTI is a ko3s and it's been running strong for 60k with plenty of abuse.

Studs aren't an option for me- I don't want to change my wheels 6 times a week because I'm not going to drive studs on the dry pavement around town.

tdz123's response was the most helpful, outlining common weakspots on the e46. Any input about the awd system? IIRC, it has limited slip diffs and is 38/62 rear biased?

And trust me my turbo seemed fine on my Jetta as well, K03, but that was not the case when smoke started pouring out the back...just replaced my turbo...K03 is not a great turbo, they are sooo small...

[Julian]

Originally Posted by carwiz008

tdz123's response was the most helpful, outlining common weakspots on the e46. Any input about the awd system? IIRC, it has limited slip diffs and is 38/62 rear biased?

You're thinking of the awd system in the e30 325iX. The transfer case in the e30 was normally set at 38%F/62%R but had a viscous clutch in it that would transfer more power to the front wheels if the rear was slipping.

The e46 has open differentials front and rear, along with a FIXED 38%F/62%R transfer case, the rest of the work is done by the traction control system.

[gd0128]

[QUOTE=slvrXI;17828379]You need a Stage 3 S4, let me know.. for sale. We'll call it $16.5k for you... Everythings been done, it needs nothing, runs perfect, professionally tuned. Big brake kit, K04s, THE WORKS! In the pics you will see a cage and race seats, all have been removed and restored to factory interior...



I noticed you were from IL. I am too, and am interested in the details of this S4 you mentioned. Please speficy. gcdijos@hotmail.com

[bmwill831]

[quote=gd0128;17945533]

Originally Posted by slvrXI

You need a Stage 3 S4, let me know.. for sale. We'll call it $16.5k for you... Everythings been done, it needs nothing, runs perfect, professionally tuned. Big brake kit, K04s, THE WORKS! In the pics you will see a cage and race seats, all have been removed and restored to factory interior...



I noticed you were from IL. I am too, and am interested in the details of this S4 you mentioned. Please speficy. gcdijos@hotmail.com

ooooo sounds like a potential sale

[bmwm1128]

Originally Posted by threethirtyxi

On the up side, the S4's alcantara interior option is pretty sweet.

i have a friend with a B5 S4 and i thought the alcantara was really nice, but wait til the summer. it DOES NOT breathe at all. but you might not have that problem in Oregon.

i have to say this is a really tough choice. like mentioned, the K03's are known to fail. they just do. idk why, but my friend's S4 has just over 100k and the turbos are starting to whine (signaling they are about to go bad). and S4's will be worse to maintain (more stuff fails). also i should mention my friend's S4 has had the center data system thing that gives mpg and temp. etc fail and apparently it's a real big hassle to replace. also, Audi's and VW's are known to not make sense when it comes to repairs and working on them (random bolts and fasteners that don't seem to have a purpose and you have to take off major seemingly unrelated things to get to a simple part), but if you worked on your GTI yourself you may be okay with it. i don't have any experience with Audi automatics so i can't help you there.

i don't think you'd really have any complaints with a 330xi. great I6 and a good AWD system (not Quattro but good). maintenance would be a little better than the Audi (on average).

depends on who your brother is. S4 is better for cheap modding but it doesn't sound like that matters. Quattro is nice, but not a must have. if the S4's turbos had been replaced, you could go either way (i'd probably get the S4 b/c of power and modibility but that's me). if the turbos were original, i'd go 330xi.

long post but i hope it helped

[tdz123]

I love S4 vs 330xi threads. Each has such an allure to me.

[driver145]

I don't know about these older cars, but the new XI doesnt compare to the new Quattro. BMWs are meant to be RWD, not AWD. I suggest learing to drive RWD or get the audi.

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by driver145

I don't know about these older cars, but the new XI doesnt compare to the new Quattro. BMWs are meant to be RWD, not AWD. I suggest learing to drive RWD or get the audi.

Depends on what you're looking for. If the car is going to be on ice A LOT, maybe the difference between xdrive and quattro would matter and the audi would be better. the rest of the time, on dry surfaces, driving a rear wheel drive (i.e. an xdrive car not on ice where awd isn't engaged) is a good thing.

[driver145]

Originally Posted by tdz123

Depends on what you're looking for. If the car is going to be on ice A LOT, maybe the difference between xdrive and quattro would matter and the audi would be better. the rest of the time, on dry surfaces, driving a rear wheel drive (i.e. an xdrive car not on ice where awd isn't engaged) is a good thing.

Have you driven both cars at the limit? I think a RWD BMW is awesome, but its on par with the Quattro and the XI is not. The XI is a RWD car platform that was changed over to AWD to increase market share. Audi builds the entire car around the Quattro setup. It really is not comparable when it comes to performance driving for the two cars... a fast BMW is RWD a fast audi is Quattro.... XI does not come into the equation.

[threethirtyxi]

Originally Posted by driver145

Have you driven both cars at the limit? I think a RWD BMW is awesome, but its on par with the Quattro and the XI is not. The XI is a RWD car platform that was changed over to AWD to increase market share. Audi builds the entire car around the Quattro setup. It really is not comparable when it comes to performance driving for the two cars... a fast BMW is RWD a fast audi is Quattro.... XI does not come into the equation.

I agree with you that BMW's XI system was aimed at competing with Audi's AWD models, and in my experience, I'll admit that the 330xi is a bit of a compromise. However, your line "XI does not come into the equation" is unfounded. If you're comparing a 330xi to an M3, than you're right, the RWD motorsport is in a different league. A RWD 330 is not a performance car and unless you bolt on a TS2+ or what AA has to offer, the 330 will never be fast. In that respect, I think the added drivability of the 330xi in exchange for a marginal sacrifice in performance in comparison to the 330i is a worthwhile prospect for people, like myself, who deal with snow. Obviously I'd love to have an M or an Audi S, but when I bought my car 330's were what I could afford (keeping maintenance and insurance in mind), and the 330xi's pros outweighed the cons in my equation.

[driver145]

Originally Posted by threethirtyxi

I agree with you that BMW's XI system was aimed at competing with Audi's AWD models, and in my experience, I'll admit that the 330xi is a bit of a compromise. However, your line "XI does not come into the equation" is unfounded. If you're comparing a 330xi to an M3, than you're right, the RWD motorsport is in a different league. A RWD 330 is not a performance car and unless you bolt on a TS2+ or what AA has to offer, the 330 will never be fast. In that respect, I think the added drivability of the 330xi in exchange for a marginal sacrifice in performance in comparison to the 330i is a worthwhile prospect for people, like myself, who deal with snow. Obviously I'd love to have an M or an Audi S, but when I bought my car 330's were what I could afford (keeping maintenance and insurance in mind), and the 330xi's pros outweighed the cons in my equation.

The poster to whom I was replying was trying to argue that the XI performs better than Quattro in the dry (at least that's what I think he was trying to say). Which simply is not true. I do think you are right that the XI is a good compromise if you need the AWD... however, if you are going to pick a BMW and Audi to race... you would pick a RWD BMW and a AWD Audi.... those are the platforms the cars are built to perform around. Just like you said, in the case of BMW, the AWD that they offer is a compromise. With Audi it is the whole car. I think they are both great cars... but the guy before was trying to compare them on the dry and even say the XI is better than Quattro. I am sorry but I cannot agree with that after having driven all 3 setups under discussion at the limit.

[threethirtyxi]

Originally Posted by driver145

The poster to whom I was replying was trying to argue that the XI performs better than Quattro in the dry (at least that's what I think he was trying to say). Which simply is not true. I do think you are right that the XI is a good compromise if you need the AWD... however, if you are going to pick a BMW and Audi to race... you would pick a RWD BMW and a AWD Audi.... those are the platforms the cars are built to perform around. Just like you said, in the case of BMW, the AWD that they offer is a compromise. With Audi it is the whole car. I think they are both great cars... but the guy before was trying to compare them on the dry and even say the XI is better than Quattro. I am sorry but I cannot agree with that after having driven all 3 setups under discussion at the limit.

That's fair.

Not to stray, but what is your impression of BMW's newer X-drive system? I've only driven a 335xi once, in the city, so I didn't push it. I imagine X-drive on the force fed 3 would be advantageous off the line, but I've never tracked the car. I'm curious what input someone who has tested the limits of the 335xi has to offer.

EDIT: saw in an earlier post you mention the "new XI", so I assume you were referring to e9X's - but still I want to know about the 335XI!

[Julian]

I like the BMW awd just because it is rwd based, whereas the quattro systems, with the exception of the newer longitudinal engine audi's, are fwd based awd systems.

The awd systems on the B5 S4 and e46 xi are pretty similar, both cars have both front and rear open differentials, and use the traction control/abs to transfer power laterally across each axle. The only difference being that the transfer case in the S4 has the ability to adjust power transfer to give up to 67% to the front or rear axle from it's default 50:50 power split.

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by driver145

Have you driven both cars at the limit? I think a RWD BMW is awesome, but its on par with the Quattro and the XI is not. The XI is a RWD car platform that was changed over to AWD to increase market share. Audi builds the entire car around the Quattro setup. It really is not comparable when it comes to performance driving for the two cars... a fast BMW is RWD a fast audi is Quattro.... XI does not come into the equation.

I really love this argument. "Have you driven both cars at the limit?" haha. Ok, so in some hypothetical universe where cars are being driven at their limit regularly, maybe your argument holds some water. But the rest of the time, and in the universe I live in, cars are not really ever being "driven to the limit."

The point I am making is that xdrive is a rwd car when there isn't wheel slip. That's good for multiple reasons: less moving parts so less to break, increase fuel efficiency, the handling of a rear wheel drive car. 99% of my time driving is spend on dry roads and I live in the mountains of colorado where we get 300+ inches of snow per year. Is quattro better in the snow: yes. So 1% of the time quattro is the car I want.


Also, the fact that Audi has been building their cars around AWD doesn't really matter because until 2010, their cars were totally off-balance and goofy with their big ass engines sticking out in front of the front axle. That's not exactly something to brag about. When BMW started making AWD cars again (and I'll admit they only did so because they wanted to increase market share) they decided to put the drive shaft throught the oil pan to solve that precise problem.

All of this is coming from a guy who has always been a huge fan (but not a fanboi like some others) of Audi.

That said, I'd take a new s4 over a 335xi in a hearbeat. All of ^^^ is splitting hairs. . . both are fine automobiles and because I don't drive "to the limit" I don't really care if one is slightly better or faster. I do care that new audis are way better looking than new BMW's tho.

[Julian]

Originally Posted by tdz123

The point I am making is that xdrive is a rwd car when there isn't wheel slip. That's good for multiple reasons: less moving parts so less to break, increase fuel efficiency, the handling of a rear wheel drive car. 99% of my time driving is spend on dry roads and I live in the mountains of colorado where we get 300+ inches of snow per year. Is quattro better in the snow: yes. So 1% of the time quattro is the car I want.

This simply isn't true, no xdrive whether old or new, is 100% rwd when there is no slip. The newer xdrive system on the e90, e60, etc. maintains a constant 40:60 split when driving with no slippage, but when it does slip it has the ability to send 100% of the power to either axle.

So none of your awd parts simply stop moving when they're not "needed"

[tdz123]

Originally Posted by Julian

This simply isn't true, no xdrive whether old or new, is 100% rwd when there is no slip. The newer xdrive system on the e90, e60, etc. maintains a constant 40:60 split when driving with no slippage, but when it does slip it has the ability to send 100% of the power to either axle.

So none of your awd parts simply stop moving when they're not "needed"

Hmmm. . . that goes contrary to what I've read in other posts but ok. If true, I'd rather have torsen. At least I think I would based on previous experience and the fact that audis are so much nicer looking.

wasn't this a conversation about 330xi's and S4s?

[akhbhaat]

I'm moving to Colorado in January, and you can be damn sure I will be going into the mountains to ski.

I'm very interested to see how my RWD ZHP (with snow tires, of course) handles it...