Plumbing the oiling system with AN and NPT connectors.

[RangerGress]

I'm plumbing my remote oil filter, cooler and accusump. If I understand correctly, there are two different types of AN connector....The standard AN and the AN that needs an O ring. Is that correct? Is one better then another?

And what is with the AN crush rings I see being sold. Do I need them too?

What else would you tell a guy that has never assembled AN plumbing before?

What is an AN "auto crimp coller"?

There are AN fittings that are barbed and use hose clamps. This a good idea or bad idea?

Anything I need to know about mating NPT connectors?

[bbh03]

I've only ever seen/used AN connectors that are without seals/crush rings. They are basically 37 degree flares (like JIC fittings) that make a metal to metal seal (alot like brake lines, which are a different type of flare). If you see an oring, it is not AN.

Advice? I use either Aeroquip, Russel or Earls barbed connectors that I can assemble with a vice and the hose ends are reusable to some degree. Assembly takes a couple to get the hang of it, but there are some tricks, especially to cutting the braidedlines. The crimp-ons require more expensive ools, are not reusable, but can withstand higher pressure. I believe that the barbed or socketless type can still operate up to a few hundred pounds pressure, size dependant, which is fine for almost anything on the car you'd care to do (oil, fuel, coolant, etc) except the pressure side of a PS pump or brake lines.

Making sure that you do not twist, stress or too tighly bend the hoses is critical to proper operation and long life.

[RangerGress]

If I don't use barbed ends I need special tools to fasten the ends to the hose? Are you sure? Shit, I didn't realize that.

If you have a 90deg fitting and are threading it into something like an oil cooler, how do you control which direction it ultimatly points? It would suck to thread a 90deg fitting into the oil cooler only to find that when it was threaded in all the way, the fitting pointing completely the wrong direction. Does an AN fitting behave any differently then an NPT fitting in this respect?

[BMMMW14]

For the 90 degree question... THe Collar that threads on to the male threads swivels independently from the the elbow (you can alywas make it point the right direction).

About crimp v. barbed v. standard... Crimps are out for you unless you want to blow a lot of money on a crimper and never be abel to reuse, barbed are a massive PITA. I prefer the standard reusable fittings. If you take your time its not that hard...you will need a special aluminum vice jaw pad, lubricant, and death wheel to cut the line.. beyond that it just takes some practice. Best of luck

Oh, and NPT is just a different thread type (pipe)... you would typically tak the part with pipe thread and then install an NPT to AN adapter, then install the AN fittings/Lines. If you can wait until the evening i can send you picture of the houising and filter i just plumbed this exact way.

[osborni]

There are swivel and non-swivel fittings for just about any mate. NPT, AN or o-ring. All of them work just fine - it really just depends on what your existing ports are an what your service interval is.

NPT isn't really designed to be taken apart that often. AN works better for frequent service. The o-ring seals really need to be replaced if they are disassembled.

Barbed fittings are much simpler then braided hose to assemble IMHO. Screw clamps work just as well as oeticker (sp?) clamps.

There are swagged fittings for barbs as well.

Pegasus has all the bits to make it work.

[endoforce5]

The barbed fittings are for "socketless" hose. These are somewhat easier to assemble. You will need to buy the hose from the same mfg as the fittings to be sure the fit is right. Standard ss braided hoses are heavier but more robust. Both are pretty easy once you play with them. One tool I found very useful was a set of aluminum jaws for my bench vise that holds the fittings tightly. It makes assembly much easier.
The AN part of any fitting is a standard configuation as stated in previous post. The other end of the fitting can have many configurations (ie. NPT, straight threaded (metric or SAE) with O-ring, hose barb, another AN, etc.). Check out the Pegasus catalog online. They have a lot of different configurations. The swivel fittings allow more flexibility in hose direction and are highly recommended. I would also recommend pressure testing once assembled.

[RacerX]

We use huge electrical cutters to cut the hose, works like a charm. You can also just follow their directions (they being the hose manufacturer). Same for assembly. For the oiling or fuel system you probably should use the reusable hose ends vs barbed. Socketless are likely just fine but they're more work, IMO, to install and some organizations/series may not like those types of fittings. You don't really need any special tools to assemble the other hose ends but there are tools that make it easier. I'm using Koul Tools which makes it a bunch easier, especially with braided hose.

Note to the different kinds of hose. I used the stainless braided for the diff cooler but the Starlite for fuel and oil (it's lighter weight). Generally we use Aeroquip and Goodridge stuff.

Cheers.

[warptkid]

you may see crush washers on the NPT side of a AN adapter.

I'm just getting into this with my car... and although I only have to do a few short (non critical low to no psi) hoses, I bought the Koul Tools and did a 'test' hose to try things out... i tried one side without the Koul Tools and one with... definately worth the $150 for the full kit.

I didn't buy the wrenches... but I will, couldn't help but marr-up some of the ends. functional, but not very pretty. Anywho, I'm picking up wrenches now.

... tools are investment... and in this case, will pay-off pretty quickly, screw up one -12 45* fitting and you've paid for 1/2 a set of wrenches.

[RacerX]

you may see crush washers on the NPT side of a AN adapter.

I'm just getting into this with my car... and although I only have to do a few short (non critical low to no psi) hoses, I bought the Koul Tools and did a 'test' hose to try things out... i tried one side without the Koul Tools and one with... definately worth the $150 for the full kit.

I didn't buy the wrenches... but I will, couldn't help but marr-up some of the ends. functional, but not very pretty. Anywho, I'm picking up wrenches now.

... tools are investment... and in this case, will pay-off pretty quickly, screw up one -12 45* fitting and you've paid for 1/2 a set of wrenches.

Yeah, of course, good point. The AN wrenches are worth the investment. I have a full set of double ended plus extras of the sizes we use commonly. Yeah, any bent fittings other than 90 are uberexpensive.

Cheers.

[warptkid]

Note to the different kinds of hose. I used the stainless braided for the diff cooler but the Starlite for fuel and oil (it's lighter weight). Generally we use Aeroquip and Goodridge stuff.

Good Point, the Startlight or Pegasus' 810/910 lines have higher temp ratings that that 'standard' SS hose.

Pegasus' 810 SS goes up to 500*f, much better than the 300*f on the standard SS... IIRC

[bbh03]

I've heard the same about not mixing manufacturer's hose and twist-on ends, but I have found they are interchangeable. In addition, they are made to the AN standard ( a defunct milspec standard) so the manufacturing tolerances should be quite good. For example, Aeroquip SS hose worked perfectly with Russel hose ends for me. YMMV.

Also, a clarification about barbed fittings. There are/were some AN hose fittings that I think were referred to as barbed because they had a barbed part that went into the hose. These are not the same thing as typical hose barbs you see on your radiator, vacuum lines, in Home Depot, etc.

Starlite is awesome but very expensive.

[RacerX]

I've heard the same about not mixing manufacturer's hose and twist-on ends, but I have found they are interchangeable. In addition, they are made to the AN standard ( a defunct milspec standard) so the manufacturing tolerances should be quite good. For example, Aeroquip SS hose worked perfectly with Russel hose ends for me. YMMV.

Also, a clarification about barbed fittings. There are/were some AN hose fittings that I think were referred to as barbed because they had a barbed part that went into the hose. These are not the same thing as typical hose barbs you see on your radiator, vacuum lines, in Home Depot, etc.

Starlite is awesome but very expensive.

I edited my post, I meant socketless, not barbed. I would agree that most fittings/hoses of different brands should be interchangeable. This is sorta like the "don't mix our oil with any other brand of oil" type thing IMO.

Yes, Starlite kicks ass. ; )

Cheers.

[warptkid]

for the record, gramm-her correction... its Startlite

I called Eaton our distributer a while back asking for starlite, they had no idea... say startlite, then it'll get you somewhere!

[mdadgar]

Note that barbed fittings are illegal for fuel and oil in BMW CCA Club Racing and probably other sanctioning bodies as well (I haven't looked).

E-13-d of the rules ("No slip-on or push-on connections are allowed."), on page 31 of the current set:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/stat...2009-v14.1.pdf

- Mark

[bbh03]

You're right and Eaton make or owns Aeroquip or something.

I blame Jack for leading me into mispelling Either way, Can. Not. Afford!

Warning to Ranger1 - this stuff gets real expensive, especially if you start plumbing oil at -10, -12 sizes. Hoses and ends and adapters will be a big chunk of your project cost.

[RacerX]

You're right and Eaton make or owns Aeroquip or something.

I blame Jack for leading me into mispelling Either way, Can. Not. Afford!

Jep, Eaton owns Aeroquip. Funny, I never noticed the "t" in there but now it's painfully obvious. ; )

Cheers.

[bbh03]

Mark,

I'm not in stock class, but it looks like that only refers to hoses passing through a bulkhead, right? It really can't apply to stock fuel lines since they are barbed everywhere, albeit with hose clamps. Does it apply only to non-stock lines that are through a bulkhead or all non-stock lines?

Ranger1 - if piping through a bulkhead, there are bulkhead fittings that are much safer, cleaner and more reliable than grommeting hose, but it will cost even more (bulkhead fitting + two extra hose ends). But if you're going to do it, it's worth doing well!

Jep, Eaton owns Aeroquip. Funny, I never noticed the "t" in there but now it's painfully obvious. ; )

Cheers.

I'll admit I've been calling it Starlite for years ever since I "thought" I could afford to plumb my 911 with it!

[mdadgar]

I'm not in stock class, but it looks like that only refers to hoses passing through a bulkhead, right? It really can't apply to stock fuel lines since they are barbed everywhere, albeit with hose clamps. Does it apply only to non-stock lines that are through a bulkhead or all non-stock lines?

I have always interpreted it as all non-stock lines.

Jack, you were (are?) a tech steward - what's your take?

- Mark

[Tom Perso]

I'll admit I've been calling it Starlite for years ever since I "thought" I could afford to plumb my 911 with it!

911's are aircooled, how much plumbing can they have?

[bbh03]

911's are aircooled, how much plumbing can they have?

Believe it or not, they are air and oil cooled and neither is sufficient alone. The stock 911 has a dry sump system with a rear oil tank and the entire system holds roughtly 12 qts for 2.7 - 3.2 L blocks. That additional capacity is for cooling, not lubrication. A pair of large hardlines connected to a thermostat routes oil all the way up the right side to a cooler (either a trombone line or a HEx) in the right front fenderwell. The lines are roughly 3/4" and its not uncommon to find improved coolers plumbed with -12 or -16 (3/4" or 1") braided stainless or some such.

[warptkid]

Mark,

I'm not in stock class, but it looks like that only refers to hoses passing through a bulkhead, right? It really can't apply to stock fuel lines since they are barbed everywhere, albeit with hose clamps. Does it apply only to non-stock lines that are through a bulkhead or all non-stock lines?

it is mentioned as a sub-set to the bulkhead point, but at the same time, it is in stock, which is the basis for all 'allowable modifications' for the higher classes unless otherwise stated in their respective sections. So, as I read it, ALLclasses are subject to this ruling. YMMV

see: section 6-D pg 39

[ScottL]

As others have said, straight-cut AN fittings require an O-ring. Only place in my car I use them is with an aftermarket hi-pressure fuel pump, which requires them.

Get a set of Koul Tools for -4, -6 and -8 sizes. Makes assembly easier. ONLY use fittings with a double-nipple "cutter" design for fuel and oil. Earl's or Aeroquip. For non-critical lines, the single nipple design is easier to assemble and cheaper. I wrap my lines with fiber-stranded packing tape, stick them in a vice, and cut slowly with an air saw. Seems to work OK but can be frustrating. I'd like to try a large blade cutter like the other guys mention.

Summit Racing has everything you could possibly need and their site makes it easy to choose fittings by size, type, etc. Their generic hose is nice and flexible, but probably not as stout as the more expensive stuff. Earl's Swivel-Seal fittings are my favorite. The ability to rotate the fitting after tightening it is a big plus.

Resist the temptation to over torque - you'll crack the fitting. The 37 degree flare should seal fine without too much force. Be careful not to nick the flare surface.

Having said all that, I have several leaks in my new fuel system. Bulkhead fittings are hard to tighten without an extra pair of hands. Teflon tape for NPT fittings can be hit-or-miss. (NPT fittings, as Carroll Smith said, are an abomination. Nonethess, you almost can't escape having to deal with them.) I mistakenly assembled one fuel hose with a cheap -6 single nipple on the high-pressure side of my fuel system. Leaked like hell.

[RangerGress]

I went to a local hydraulic shop this afternoon to see what they could do for me. They'll sell steel fittings for $3 that cost $30 for pretty red and blue aluminum. And they have all sorts of inexpensive hose that will handle our oil temps and pressures. It's not pretty but it's at 10% of the cost.

The shop had never heard of AN fittings. They did have JIC fittings, but I wasn't sure at the time if JIC=AN. Some Internet research later indicated that although the thread shapes aren't exactly the same, for applications under 1000 psi (or more depending on the source) they are considered compatible.

[bbh03]

Both are 37 degree flares.

The steel stuff is much cheaper and much heavier. Careful with steel fitting an aluminum blocks. Good luck with metric adapters. Just some food for thought before going that route.

[Tom Perso]

Believe it or not, they are air and oil cooled and neither is sufficient alone. The stock 911 has a dry sump system with a rear oil tank and the entire system holds roughtly 12 qts for 2.7 - 3.2 L blocks. That additional capacity is for cooling, not lubrication. A pair of large hardlines connected to a thermostat routes oil all the way up the right side to a cooler (either a trombone line or a HEx) in the right front fenderwell. The lines are roughly 3/4" and its not uncommon to find improved coolers plumbed with -12 or -16 (3/4" or 1") braided stainless or some such.

Yup. I had a 74 914 with a stroker T4 motor, and the oil cooling is just as important as the air cooling of the actual motor. A friend has a 67 911S and I helped him replace the trombone cooler with a front mounted cooler, all with braided line... Yes, there was a lot of line involved.

But, on topic... I've only worked with the braided stainless and we cut it with a pneumatic cutoff tool, then cleaned all the lines. I would think if you could get away with the push-on or socket connectors, it is preferable.

And, I've mixed Aeroquip and Earls with no problems.

Tom