Someone money shifted my car today

[jrcook320]

I let someone drive my car today. I think we were doing around 80 mph when he accidentally downshifted into 2nd instead of 4th. In the split second it happened the tach pointed straight down which looks to be around 9500 rpm (which is about right at 80 with the 3.45 diff). With the 4 puck it was instant revs and it felt like someone slammed on the brakes. I felt sick.

The car ran ok for the next mile till we got home and I let it sit there and idle to cool down. Watching the motor I thought I could see more vibration than normal but couldn't tell if it was in my head or not. I shut it down and came back to it 20 minutes later to put my mind at ease, but once I got behind the wheel I could tell the car felt distinctly different. There is significantly more vibration than normal (especially at 2500 rpm), and there is an an occasional erratic miss and more crackle/pop out the exhaust on decel than I remember there being.

From my past experience with my 4 puc clutch, I think the vibration is from sheared rivets on the pressure plate. A friend sheared them by power shifting once. The violence of the money shift was much worse than a power shift could ever be. At this point, my plan is to put a clutch in the car that is more streetable yet holds the power. I'm in the market for a 228mm flywheel and a more streetable heavy duty clutch from TEP or clutchnet.com.

Worse, I fear I may have slightly bent valves, just enough to let the motor run ok but not seal consistently, thus the miss. I'm running a 280 cam with stiffer valve springs (according to bavarian engine exchange), but I doubt they are stiff enough to hold the valves shut at 9500 rpm. I did a compression test and got 140, 140, 145, 143 which is a little lower than I remember the last time I tested the motor. Tomorrow I'll buy a fitting to do a leak down test so I can try to determine if the valves are bent or not.

While I'm waiting on the flywheel and clutch to arrive I'll hopefully determine if there are other problems with the motor. I'm planning on driving the car on the hotrod power tour in 6 weeks so I have to wrap this up in a hurry. If the valves are bent I'll just pull the head and rebuild it with MLS gasket and maybe head studs and leave the short block as it is. I'll be very tempted to pull the motor and go S14 crank, rods and forged pistons but I just don't have the time right now.

This sucks. Big time.

[jjgbmw323]

Sorry..needless to say, money shifts are like eating donuts, and investing in the stock market when it goes 700 points down in one day.

Don't do them cause money shifts on BMW = lots of headaches and money.

They are know for wiping out e36 engines with one shift. $uck!
I know it was an accident Josh, but get him to give you some coin to cover something of the new engine.


With my dogleg I am worried about this happening to my new 2.9 m20.

Sounds like you have to rebuild your engine. I would go the s14 rods and crank route.

[g323]

man, i feel your pain. I hope that the damage turns out to be minimal and that your suspicions manifest as your own justified paranoias and nothing more.

Best wishes,
g323

[oldstylebimmer]

hey sry to hear, but it sounds like you have a good plan! good luck!

[joel323]

I had someone do that to my m10 in my first e21, It sounded horriffic. The valves definately floated for me. I have read that this is the only part of the m10 that cannot handle those type of rpms. your compression numbers look even but a leak down test will tell you what you have. The miss is not a good sign.

[jdrbling325IS]

NOOOOOOOOOO!

Dude, I'm sorry that happened to you. It probably hurts more to know that it wasn't even your fault...

Gah!

Well I really hope you get everything put back together man, seriously.

[320iCar]

shit. the only thing worse than this actually happening, is that feeling. you know the one. its not quite sickness. its like when your sitting in the dentists office right before you go under the drill. its terrible.

i agree. if it just ends up being the valves, maybe just thrown on a mediocre head for now, so you can run in the hotrod power cruise or whatever it is. then after that, spend the bit of time and do the s14 crank and connecting rods.

i wouldn't demand any money from that damn fool. but be polite and ask for some green pursuation in fixing your motor. and if they are decent they should help you out.

[AlaskaBimmer]

I bent all the intake valves on the baur 2 years ago with a missaligned timing belt change, I know the feeling you have, I had 6 bent valves and no compresion, so we cut in the larger 325i valves and ported the head since I had to rebuild it anyway....

On a side note My M3 broke a differential bolt yesterday and the first auto-x is sunday next week, the new bolt is supposed to get here thursday....I really really hadn't planned to remove the diff from my daily driver this week, and there is still the whole sheared bolt to remove as well. I'm amazed that a $2.17 bolt has crippled my car.

Good luck, hope it isn't too bad.

[BoostedE21]

That sucks, I surely hope its nothing to bad.

[fullswing]

josh - so sorry... all i can say is... make lemonade.

[STAGGERED M3]

someone lets to many friends drive his car..... blame yourself for this buddy. IN my eyes the only one that should screw anything up is me. gl

[waferman]

Josh, was this the friend with the muscle car that you have videos of racing against?

Sounds like you are in for a maintenance summer. Check your oil next change for more shavings than usual. Hopefully when you pull the head you wont find any shavings from rings on the piston tops like I did on my tired engine. On your compression, it may have slipped a bit from your last reading but it is still healthy. At least you have your health!

[jrcook320]

i agree. if it just ends up being the valves, maybe just thrown on a mediocre head for now, so you can run in the hotrod power cruise or whatever it is. then after that, spend the bit of time and do the s14 crank and connecting rods.

i wouldn't demand any money from that damn fool. but be polite and ask for some green pursuation in fixing your motor. and if they are decent they should help you out.

The power tour is a week long hotrod cruise event which is probably the largest in the world of it's type. Events include autox, drag racing, and hundreds of vendors at every venue. There were over 3000 cars last year.

I'm still wrestling with my emotions about this, this is a difficult situation. Despite my anger and regret, the bottom line is I'm the idiot who let someone drive my car. That was my decision and it's my responsibility to fix the car now.

josh - so sorry... all i can say is... make lemonade.

Thanks man. The car will be better after this, I plan on chucking the four puc clutch and 215mm flywheel for good this time around and spending the chedder to put a streetable clutch in that will hold the power. I'm tired of 4 puc. If there are motor issues and I have to pull the head, I'll throw in an mls head gasket and the motor will be better for it.

someone lets to many friends drive his car..... blame yourself for this buddy. IN my eyes the only one that should screw anything up is me. gl

Indeed. I guess I'm too nice. I'm learning my lesson slowly...

Josh, was this the friend with the muscle car that you have videos of racing against?
At least you have your health!

No. Jeremy knows how to drive and is the ONLY person that I trust 110% to drive my car or wrench on it with no fear of something being messed up afterward.

[epmedia]

Ouch. I revved mine to about 9000 in neutral once and broke a rocker pad (the steel that rubs on the cam). Furtunately the pieces were big enough to stay on top of the head, so I could find the two pieces easily. I suppose this rocker was defective...

Good Luck, hopefully nothing too serious, Robert

[DrewDude320i]

As long as you're able to maintain the mentality that it's an opportunity to make improvements, you'll come out without wanting to kill everyone. At least he didn't wreck it - engine work is better than body work + engine work.

[TKO383]

No. Jeremy knows how to drive and is the ONLY person that I trust 110% to drive my car or wrench on it with no fear of something being messed up afterward.

Heh, second to Josh, I've probably spent more time behind the wheel of his car than anyone else. When we went to Oklahoma City to pick it up(when it was still a junker ), I drove the car it's first couple hours while Josh wired up a radio. Nothing like wiring up a radio while the car is still driving 75mph down the highway!! LOL

People need to understand these cars are instruments, not farm trucks, and you need to shift them as such. I've gone WOT in Josh's car numerous times, but that does not need to include shifting like a blind gorilla.

However, I do know how to powershift. So Josh, if you need someone to try out your new clutch, let me know.

As long as you're able to maintain the mentality that it's an opportunity to make improvements, you'll come out without wanting to kill everyone. At least he didn't wreck it - engine work is better than body work + engine work.

Truth.com

[TheNeek]

Sucks.

Burying the needle is not my idea of fun. I won't comment on driving, but I hope you can get the car sorted out soon. You gonna pull the head soon?

[TKO383]

He tried doing a leakdown test last night but for some reason the fitting wouldnt seal to the head, yielding no results yet. The cranking compression test came out pretty good. So based on how it runs, and the data collected during the cranking compression tests, there are no severely bent valves. If anything is bent, it is slight enough that the slop in the valve guides is still allowing the valve to seal up most of the time.

My gut tells me that a new clutch is all that will be required. Josh said the car still drives and boosts OK, its just not smooth anymore, which if it had a bent and leaking valve, I have to think would show itself under boost especially. If he can successfully perform a leakdown, we'll know for sure.

If the engine turns out to be undamaged, this is the second WOT unlimited blast the engine has sustained. Must be a tough little monster.

If the engine is damaged, I'm pulling for Josh to just replace the intake valves, re-cut the seats, and put the head back on. The Power Tour is coming quickly, and I dont think he has the time, nor has he planned on the finances to build a new engine. Building a new engine on a 6 week time frame is not the way to build an engine anyway. Especially if he wants to offset grind the crank and bore the block for more discplacement. I also feel that a new engine warrants the swap to a T3 turbo, EDIS, and Megasquirt. If he's going to build a whole new engine, I'd like to see 350hp. If that happens, C6 Corvette owners beware.... Well his rear diff should beware first, then the Corvette owners. LOL

[Layne]

If the engine is damaged, I'm pulling for Josh to just replace the intake valves, re-cut the seats, and put the head back on. The Power Tour is coming quickly, and I dont think he has the time, nor has he planned on the finances to build a new engine. Building a new engine on a 6 week time frame is not the way to build an engine anyway. Especially if he wants to offset grind the crank and bore the block for more discplacement. I also feel that a new engine warrants the swap to a T3 turbo, EDIS, and Megasquirt. If he's going to build a whole new engine, I'd like to see 350hp. If that happens, C6 Corvette owners beware.... Well his rear diff should beware first, then the Corvette owners. LOL

I have to agree. I dig the retro fuel system thing he's got going on, but megasquirt is pretty awesome. Is there a reason to assume it's an intake valve problem vs. exhaust? (I don't know, just curious)

A useless side note on bent valves: When I bent 2 of them in my M motor the spring would hold the gap down to 1/4 of what it was when I put the valve in without the spring. Meaning the spring is actually strong enough to bend the valve back somewhat within it's elastic limits. So if it's bent less badly than mine were, it might bend back all the way closed. Not sure what sort of running issues something like that would cause.

[E21Adam]

I have to agree. I dig the retro fuel system thing he's got going on, but megasquirt is pretty awesome. Is there a reason to assume it's an intake valve problem vs. exhaust? (I don't know, just curious)

I'm going to make the guess that it's because the intake valves have a larger diameter than the exhaust valves. That means that it would take less force to bend them (think leverage) and they would be more likely to get hit because they hang down a little more than the exhaust valves. It could just be that the intake valves are at more of an angle or something too. Hell, there could be no reason at all too. I'm just speculating and I'm not an engineer.

[jrcook320]

I hope you're right and there is no head damage. It did run good yesterday, but the idle seems inconsistent and I have a lot more valvetrain chatter than normal. Just listening to it run makes me feel sick. The motor did withstand an 8000 rpm free rev when my gas pedal jammed years ago, and again when I wrecked the car and my throttle cable got hung up on a strut tower nut. I think a gradual WOT over-rev to 8000 rpm is very different from a violent mechanical over rev (with the throttle closed) to 9500.

I'm still looking for a good used 228mm flywheel, I sent Jason Miller (millersmule.com) an email asking how much he charges to lighten and how light he can get one. I know the 228mm S14 evo flywheel is 12.5 lbs which is quite a bit lower than what TEP gets theirs down to, plus TEP doesn't machine the outside edge so it has a higher moment of inertia which renders the lighter weight pointless. He also has an 8 lb aluminum flywheel that would be cool depending on price, if it's not much more than sourcing a used 228mm and having it lightened I may spring for it. I won't be paying $500 just for a flywheel though.

I don't think I got on the throttle enough to get into the boost, maybe I should but I'm scared to.

If the valves are bent hopefully I can get away with just replacing the valves and maybe installing rocker retainers and an MLS head gasket.

If I pull the head and find issues with the bottom end I may be forced to just retire the car until I can build a 2.2L short block. My plans are for 91mm JE forged pistons, ~8.5:1 CR, 84mm s14 crank (maybe offset ground to 85mm stroke using +.5mm rod bearings) and 144mm s14 rods to keep a good rod/stroke ratio. That will cost me enough chedder that I will have to put everything back together with my current fuel and ignition system and turbo and start saving up for MS, EDIS, tubular header and a GT28RS or GT30 turbo in the future. 300-350 hp with a low boost threshold will be the goal, so I want to keep the turbo on the small side so it spools early. With the right turbo 400 hp will be possible with that motor though.

I think my diff will taco long before I'm beating any C6 Vettes. lol

He tried doing a leakdown test last night but for some reason the fitting wouldnt seal to the head, yielding no results yet. The cranking compression test came out pretty good. So based on how it runs, and the data collected during the cranking compression tests, there are no severely bent valves. If anything is bent, it is slight enough that the slop in the valve guides is still allowing the valve to seal up most of the time.

My gut tells me that a new clutch is all that will be required. Josh said the car still drives and boosts OK, its just not smooth anymore, which if it had a bent and leaking valve, I have to think would show itself under boost especially. If he can successfully perform a leakdown, we'll know for sure.

If the engine turns out to be undamaged, this is the second WOT unlimited blast the engine has sustained. Must be a tough little monster.

If the engine is damaged, I'm pulling for Josh to just replace the intake valves, re-cut the seats, and put the head back on. The Power Tour is coming quickly, and I dont think he has the time, nor has he planned on the finances to build a new engine. Building a new engine on a 6 week time frame is not the way to build an engine anyway. Especially if he wants to offset grind the crank and bore the block for more discplacement. I also feel that a new engine warrants the swap to a T3 turbo, EDIS, and Megasquirt. If he's going to build a whole new engine, I'd like to see 350hp. If that happens, C6 Corvette owners beware.... Well his rear diff should beware first, then the Corvette owners. LOL

[TheNeek]

Your motor is in my prayers.

[Layne]

Jason't flywheels are definitely sub-$500 though I don't have the actual prices. He can make them out of billet steel or aluminum, the steel is pretty popular actually. Of course it can be much thinner than cast iron or aluminum, so they can actually get down to the same weight as aluminum ones. At that point I see no reason not to use the 240mm clutch from an M30, the trans spline is the same.

[BoostedE21]

Josh, like I said, hope its nothing to major, sounds like its running decent, so its shouldnt be bad.

Also, on a side note, I thought that with a turbo motor, you dont want a lightwieght FW.

Good luck with the motor.

[Jmabarone]

If the valves are bent hopefully I can get away with just replacing the valves and maybe installing rocker retainers and an MLS head gasket.

Josh, you've had this car for how long and you haven't put rocker retainers on it? even if you aren't revving to oblivion, it's still cheap security.