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Thread: BavToys: Buyer beware

  1. #1
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    BavToys: Buyer beware

    This is lengthy, because I want to be as transparent as possible about what happened when I ordered from BavToys, and the results of that decision. Everything posted here is in order, and verbatim.

    I ordered Ordered Prolumen 35w 5k bulbs from BavToys because one of mine had burned out. I know that's the temperature I needed, because the bulbs I already had were labeled:



    What I received weren't labeled:



    And more than that, they arrived in a box labeled incorrectly without a packing slip to verify what the contents were. I contacted support@bavtoys.com. Below is the conversation (all quotes from BavToys are sic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    The box I just received is labeled as 50w 8000k. I take it I should disregard that?

    Thanks,
    Adam
    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    the marking on the bulbs is what matters, we use all sorts of boxes.
    The bulbs weren't marked. I trusted that BavToys fulfilled the order properly, so I installed them.

    I know that no two bulbs will match exactly, but what I was sent and what I had already were clearly different color temperatures.

    Below is the email I sent after installing one of them:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    (pictures attached)

    Hello,

    I ordered Prolumen 35w 5k HIDs (see our original email thread below) and received my replacement bulbs on the 17th.

    What I received was incorrect, because the pair I was sent do not match that color temperature of what I already had in there, and had specified. What was ordered arrived unlabeled:



    unlike what I had already:



    When I asked via email (below), I was assured that they were the correct match and that "the marking on the bulbs is what matters". There was no marking, so I had to take your word for it.

    Today I replaced the bulb that had burned out (drivers side) with one of the two replacement bulbs that I had been sent. It is clearly not a match to the 35w 5k that I have on the passenger side:







    I would like to send back the two bulbs I was sent in exchange for the correct ones. Only one has been opened.

    Please tell me what the procedure is to make this right.

    Thanks very much,
    Adam (lastname redacted)
    (phone number redacted)
    This was his response:

    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    you were sent a matching pair, new bulbs will never match old bulbs its just how it is, new paint will not match old paint.
    as long as the pair matches there's not much else we can do and we can not match new bulbs to your one old one.
    Here's the email thread that follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't you agree based on the pictures that the issue here is not that they are the same color temperature but not a matching set, but instead two completely different color temperatures? A minor difference and your comparison to paint would be correct, but these two look nothing alike in terms of their color and based on the chart on your website, not what I received.

    What I had was white and what I ordered what white, but what I received was yellow. Installing the matching pair will result in two yellow lights, a downgrade which was not my intention at all.

    I would like to return what was sent to me in exchange for a pair of correct (and labeled) bulbs. I think this is only fair, as what has occurred here was not my fault.

    Thanks,
    Adam
    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    a 5000k is a white with a yellow base, the picture you attached looks more like an 8000k, it has blue in it which a 5000k does not have.
    it seems we sent you a 35w set in 5000k just like you specified, im not sure what else we can do. we can not match old bulbs, all we can do is send the correct bulbs in the correct temp as specified and i think we have done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    I think you would agree that there is a very real difference in the strength of our disagreement on this issue.

    I have sent all the proof that is possible: the labels on what I have/ the lack of labels on what was sent, and the pictures of the difference once installed. The response from BavToys thus far cannot be backed up by anything other than what it seems like to you, which cannot be corroborated by anything because what was sent has no label.

    Even though my existing lights look to you like a 8000k bulb, they are clearly labeled as 5k. What your company sent me was unlabeled, but seems to you like it is a 5000k.

    I don't want BavToys to match my old bulbs in anything other than the correct type. My old bulbs - with their labels and their obvious color difference - only prove that the incorrect color temp was sent, and I would simply like the correct (and correctly labeled) bulbs sent, as I had ordered originally.

    On the page marked Prolumen Digital Slim DS2 Kit, the two 5k bulbs in the second row do not look like what I received.

    I agree that all you can do is send the correct bulbs in the correct temperature, as specified, but that did not happen in this case. Nothing that has happened here bears that out.

    I understand that as a business you must guard against being taken advantage of, and the loss of revenue as a result of 'shrink' is a consideration. I have a business too and I understand that aspect of it. I am not trying to take advantage of you. If I had made a mistake in ordering, I would own up to that. What happened here is that I ordered accurately, and didn't receive what I ordered.

    Please allow me to return what you sent me in exchange for what I ordered originally, so that this issue can be easily and reasonably resolved.

    By resolving this properly, you can retain me as a customer and have me as someone who will refer you more business - I'm an enthusiast and contributing member to several car clubs. This is a $75 mistake that BavToys made, but is easily fixable with a minimum of effort and good business sense. I want to be a satisfied customer, please help me become one by resolving this issue effectively.

    -Adam
    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    i may have not made myself clear so i'll try again:
    you ordered a set of 5000k and thats what you got, we can not account nor match old bulbs that may have shifted or burned in in color, we just cant, sending them back will not solve anything because the next set will be identical, as in exactly the same hue and color.
    if you wanted to match an old bulb you should of sent it in, we can not match any other way.
    you can send all 3 bulbs back, we will TRY to match the old bulb but there's no guaranty we can, at the end you'll get a set of matching bulbs as close to the old ones REGARDLESS OF WHAT TEMP. IT MAY BE, thats all we can do. you must acknowledge this and agree before we can proceed.
    this is being extended to you as a courtesy, we will accommodate you this once and only once in good faith.

    just to be clear, we did not make any mistakes, we sent you a set of 5000k bulbs just like you specified.
    I had been perfectly nice up to this point, but the idea that they are incapable of making mistakes irked me. I had asked nicely for a replacement 3 times and was refused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    You have made yourself completely clear: you are denying any wrongdoing in the face of overwhelming proof to the contrary.

    Let me make myself completely clear: I DO NOT WANT YOU TO MATCH OLD BULBS, I WANT YOU TO MATCH THE TYPE OF BULB AND CORRECTLY FULFILL THE ORDER I PLACED. There is nothing you sent me, whether it's the box with the wrong label (which you told me not to worry about) or the bulb without any labels on it that proves that you fulfilled this order correctly.

    Good faith is owing up to a mistake and making it right by a customer, not stubbornly refusing to fix a mistake that was clearly your fault.

    Your version of "courtesy" is not only discourteous, it's insulting.

    You sent me an unlabeled item and claim to know for certain what it is, even though by your own admission you use "all sorts of boxes" and "the marking on the bulb is what matters".

    I am not asking for a refund, I simply want you to take back what you incorrectly sent and replace it with the correct and VERIFIABLE order.

    As a courtesy, this is your last chance to rectify this situation properly before it gets both litigious and public.

    Thanks,
    Adam
    What else could I do? They have no shipping address on their website, (which was purchased through a proxy service anyway). As an unsatisfied consumer, my only recourse was to share my experience with others. As for litigation, I have a lawyer on retainer, and he's bored. I'd love to gather the rest of the customer's he has defrauded and pursue something along those lines. Fraud is what we're talking about here, isn't it? To misrepresent something to a consumer, then take their money in exchange for something different?

    My last email resulted in a callback from Ory/Ouri/Orrie (none of his messages had a name on them, so who knows?).

    He was pretty upset, saying I was threatening him and "that's now how he does business". He wanted me to send him my working light along with the two he sent so he could compare them. In between being interrupted several times, I told him that given the lost trust I had in him and his company that this was not a suitable solution. He then suggested that I contest the purchase via PayPal before hanging up on me.

    I did as he suggested and contested the purchase via PayPal, describing the situation as you see here. His one and only response recommended that I mail the bulbs back.

    I asked for a return shipping address so that I could do that. I got no reply.

    A few days later I asked again. No reply.

    Third time the day after that. No reply.

    Fourth time a day later, with my intention to escalate the claim to a higher level of PayPal resolution. At this point it had been a week without a word from him. No reply.

    My PayPal claim was rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by PayPal
    We're unable to decide this claim in your favor at this time. PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies to the shipment of goods but not to disputes about merchandise quality.
    That SAME DAY, I receive an email from BavToys, rubbing it in:

    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    now that your threats and underhanded method have been shut done by paypal you may want to reconsider your attitude and deamnor, we are still willing to work with you even though we are not required to now that paypal has ruled in our favor, as long as you can be respectful, polite and most of all keep your threats to yourself we may still be able to resolve this to your satisfaction.

    if you are willing to procede like a grown up we will do what we can to work the situation out the best we can otherwise we can do this once more with the bank and the usps inspector general office with the same or even worse results.
    we remain your best and only option for resolution, we are willing to turn the page and start new as long as you remains respectful and courteous.
    its up to you, again.
    As for BavToys being my "best and only option for a resolution", I had ordered replacement bulbs from DDMTUNING.com, the same 35w 5k bulbs I had ordered from BavToys. They came labeled and packed correctly. I had no reason to be so nice, but I sent another message to BavToys telling them of my experience. Below is that email conversation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    I'm writing all this to you not to fight with you, but because I believe you might have a genuine interest in solving the problem you and I had with my order. Maybe this particular situation will help you going forward with other customers.

    It's worth it to me to investigate what happened, so I made an online purchase through ddmtuning, ordering the same item I tried to order from you: a pair of 35w 5k bulbs.

    Here's one of their bulbs installed on the drivers' side (note that it matches the color temperature of the bulb I had already on the passenger side):



    And again, here's what you sent me:



    Additionally, ddmtuning sent bulbs labeled with the color temperature, in a correctly labeled box, with a packing slip, and answered emails using their name, address and phone number.

    I am not a scammer and my methods were never underhanded; they are the only things protecting me as a consumer and well within my rights and anyone else's to use. Consider what you would have done in my situation had roles been reversed. I think anyone would have been as disappointed as I was.

    Again, I kindly ask for a refund, and as soon as you send me a shipping address I'll have the bulbs you sent me sent right back to you with all the applicable insurance and tracking enabled.

    Customer service makes all the difference in the business world, and surviving in this recession might mean reevaluating your approach to customer service going forward.

    --Adam
    Quote Originally Posted by BavToys
    you can send all 3 bulbs back, we will TRY to match the old bulb.

    i think we made that above point clear on multiple occasion and offered it to you a number times, you declined more then once stating you were not interested in them matching your old bulb yet here we are again...

    in your place i would of attempted to resolve the situation respectfully rather then resort to threats as you did, that's usually counter productive and will always net you the opposite result.

    we can not compare our bulbs to other brands, neither can you, bulbs vary by brand, by the amount of gas that goes into them and a number of other factors, what's a 8000k for one may be a 5000k to another, if you're looking for an invoice or packing slip print your paypal receipt, its that simple, we don't like to waste more paper then we have to..

    again, you can send the bulbs back, the return address is clearly printed on the box, beyond replacing them once there's not much else we can do.
    again this was offered to you a number of times but its only after paypal denied your dispute that you became a little more receptive to the same idea and solution we advanced over a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam
    If I still had the box, do you think I would have asked you 5 times now what the return address is?

    Please email me the return address.

    Thanks,
    Adam
    And that's where the situation is at this point. It's odd that every time I've requested a shipping address, I don't receive a response. After sharing this experience here and many other places, I doubt I'll hear from him again. I'm out $75, but maybe this will serve as a lesson to anyone else interested in purchasing bulbs online.

    What I've learned through dealing with BavToys is that they/he is either too ignorant or too incompetent to tell the difference in the bulbs pictured above. One is white, the other is yellow. These are not closely colored shades of paint, as BavToys has said.

    Another thing I learned is that BavToys and the people who work there believe they are without fault. "We do not make mistakes," he says. How could anyone see these pictures and believe that the order was fulfilled properly?

    I'm glad I purchased bulbs from DDMTUNING.com. In addition to being almost half of bavtoys' price, ddmtuning sent the correct color temperature, in a correctly labeled box, with a packing slip, and answered emails using their name, address and phone number (and capital letters) - just like a real-life reputable business would. I honestly do not know why anyone would deal with BavToys when given the choice.

    Unlike BavToys, I am admitting a mistake: purchasing from them. Going forward I'll work tirelessly in an effort to keep other car enthusiasts from making the same mistake I have, and hopefully drive a lot of business away from them and towards any other business capable of fulfilling a simple order with accuracy and accountability.

    I will gladly share my experience with BavToys until "habbie" and his "business" end up where where all his other poorly lead and poorly operated businesses end up: destitution and failure.

    Clearly I'm not the only dissatisfied customer who he has treated this way. Below are threads from other dissatisfied customers, many of which include responses from "habbie" himself displaying the winning customer service he's known for:

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1192735

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1194842

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=25768953

    (He has two other failed companies? I wonder which.)
    http://www.bimmerwerkz.com/forum/3-s...s-60449-2.html

    What I like about this one is how the response is written in all lower-case letters, just like BavToys! Their slogan should be, "You know it's BavToys if it doesn't have a shift key"
    http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/...Off0408609.htm

    http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/2423209-post15.html

    He's banned at this forum. I wonder why?
    http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=81548
    http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=192237

    To conclude, I have large doubts about Bimmerforums' judgement in sponsorship choices with BavToys as a lighting sponsor. If forum sponsors are chosen with this type of negative pedrigree, what does it say about TCKline, The Tire Rack, and many of the other forum sponsors here? Why would any of those companies wish to be associated with BavToys?

    BavToys: Buyer beware.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nature Boy View Post
    I honestly do not know why anyone would deal with BavToys when given the choice.
    same here, I've never once bought anything from them, and never will just based on the couple of threads on here that I'm able to read before Habbie deletes them

  3. #3
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    all this bc you have two different color bulbs? what a drama queen. hope you get it worked out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple master View Post
    You better save the post before its deleted.
    +1

    That sucks for you but thanks for sharing and keeping fellow BFC members informed. It looks like you received 3K or 4K bulbs...the amount of yellow it's obvious it's not a 5K bulb. He's just playing "dumb" to make you seem like the bad guy.

    You should post in the vendor comment section. Habbie can't delete your post there.

    I agree that he should be banned as a forum sponsor given his "business" practices. Perhaps he's prepaid for a certain amount of time and when the contract expires they won't renew him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mpowered95 View Post
    all this bc you have two different color bulbs? what a drama queen. hope you get it worked out.
    Doesn't seem dramatic at all to me...actually he seemed to have been very patient. I think it's more the fact that it was an obvious error on BTs part but they won't own up to it.
    Last edited by Jackson334; 04-07-2009 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpowered95 View Post
    all this bc you have two different color bulbs? what a drama queen. hope you get it worked out.

    I think it is the way bavtoys handled the matter and still wouldn't replace the bulbs? who knows.

    what i DO know is that girl in your sig looks amazing from that angle.

  6. #6
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    Return the bulbs like they ask, and see if they give you the ones to your liking?

    I have heard many complaints about them, so it would make me think twice before doing business with them. I prefer to use Bimmer95, Chris is always helpful, and very professional. Amazing products and fast shipping.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OxfordM3 View Post
    Return the bulbs like they ask, and see if they give you the ones to your liking?
    +1

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    +1 take my business elsewhere now..

    but try to replace your bulbs and hope for the best... whats the worst that can happen.... 10000k bulbs? lol
    2000 Silverstone/Silverstone M5 1/34

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    Good idea to post here as well. Not sure if someone will shut 1 of the threads down tho for simply being a duplicate thread (content entirely aside). Good luck. Thank you for taking the time to post though, I and many more appreciate it.

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    Thanks for the quality write-up. It seems you went way out of your way to right the situation. It's up to a business to make things right with the customer, not the other way around. BavToys has now lost my business and I'm certain others from reading this. And for what BavToys? A $75 set of lightbulbs? Great job with customer retention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dje34M5 View Post
    Thanks for the quality write-up. It seems you went way out of your way to right the situation. It's up to a business to make things right with the customer, not the other way around. BavToys has now lost my business and I'm certain others from reading this. And for what BavToys? A $75 set of lightbulbs? Great job with customer retention.
    you must have missed the part where Bav Toys asked for him to return the bulbs and hell be sent a matching pair.

  12. #12
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    I recently ordered from Bavtoys and have had no issues - I had a problem with my order ( my mistake) and they went out of their way to rectify it to make sure i was happy.

    That being said - sorry to hear about what happened in your situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpowered95 View Post
    you must have missed the part where Bav Toys asked for him to return the bulbs and hell be sent a matching pair.
    No I didn't miss it. I also didn't miss the the extremely poor way the representative from BavToys handled the situation. If they couldn't get a simple order right the first time, without labeling anything either, why would I want to try again? And I am assuming of course this means the buyer of these bulbs has to pay for shipping back to the supplier too.

  14. #14
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    You should return them for a full refund and refund of all shipping charges,
    its only what is fair and what you deserve
    --it was their mistake --

    get rma # and send them back



    tell them you want a full refund .....edited , finally read yer post completely and noticed you did buy from somewhere else

    How come this guy is still a sponsor and moderator , when he doesnt even reply to your emails for a return address
    Last edited by belligerent; 04-07-2009 at 09:58 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje34M5 View Post
    No I didn't miss it. I also didn't miss the the extremely poor way the representative from BavToys handled the situation. If they couldn't get a simple order right the first time, without labeling anything either, why would I want to try again? And I am assuming of course this means the buyer of these bulbs has to pay for shipping back to the supplier too.
    im guessing youve never ran into a DDM complaint thread.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by belligerent View Post
    You should return them for a full refund and refund of all shipping charges,
    its only what is fair and what you deserve
    --it was their mistake --

    get rma # and send them back



    tell them you want a full refund .....edited , finally read yer post completely and noticed you did buy from somewhere else

    How come this guy is still a sponsor and moderator , when he doesnt even reply to your emails for a return address
    That's the shady part...by not labeling the product there's almost no way to "prove" it was BTs mistake. To me the pictures say it all but if they're still adamant that those yellow lights are 5000K then what can you do.

    To the OP, now that you have new bulbs, you should go ahead and send the BT ones back and see if they can retify the problem. I would not have done it initially either since he could conviently "lost" your package. I would ship it back via USPS in a padded envelope to save postage. If you go to the post office you can get a tracking number for .50 more I think. Don't forget to include your original bulb so that they can "match" it. I bet he'll come back with 8000K is what most closely matched your bulb but it probably won't have a label either. They don't make mistakes....

  17. #17
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    Just saying...he didn't say they don't make mistakes, he said "we did not make any mistakes." There's a difference there.

    But I do understand your frustration. Try sending them back and seeing how the new ones match up.
    Last edited by adamnur; 04-07-2009 at 11:14 PM.

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    +1

    i dont see what the big deal is to send the sent of bulbs back. he offered to send you new ones. btw, are you trying to say that those bulbs in your headlights were out of the same pair you were sent?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpowered95 View Post
    +1

    i dont see what the big deal is to send the sent of bulbs back. he offered to send you new ones. btw, are you trying to say that those bulbs in your headlights were out of the same pair you were sent?
    Would the customer be responsible for extraneous charges like restocking, shipping back and forth again, etc etc..? I should hope not.

    BMW M3 - Ferrari 348 - Chevrolet Chevelle

  20. #20
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    LOL it costs $4 to ship a set of bulbs across the country... if thats too much, and an inconvience..... you shouldnt be modding your car.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpowered95 View Post
    LOL it costs $4 to ship a set of bulbs across the country... if thats too much, and an inconvience..... you shouldnt be modding your car.
    Principle of the matter. period.

    BMW M3 - Ferrari 348 - Chevrolet Chevelle

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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by BavToys
    you were sent a matching pair, new bulbs will never match old bulbs its just how it is, new paint will not match old paint.
    as long as the pair matches there's not much else we can do and we can not match new bulbs to your one old one.


    This is the type of response typical of Bavtoys.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by somesnapper View Post
    This is the type of response typical of Bavtoys.
    [/i]
    being that you've only been a member for a year, i can see how you'd have enough experience to make a statement like that.

  25. #25
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    Wow, how sad. If you put it on a credit card, call them and get your money back. Send the crap back to BavToys.

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