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Thread: TS progress and lessons learned

  1. #1
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    TS progress and lessons learned

    EDIT: PICS ADDED

    I pushed the AA TS hardware a bit more. I have to hand it to Stimpee, its quality hardware, I cant say for sure if I maxed the intercooler cores out or not, I never got around to testing the pressure drop across them and my IATs are the same as the base stage 3.

    I wanted to give a big thanks to Karl at AA for agreeing to remote tune this car for me. I also need to thank Mike Radowski and Donovan of Maximum PSI for excellent fabrication on the custom exhaust, flashing my DME, and dyno time. Donovan was also a huge help with the HG/head studs/and cam install. Both give high quality work for VERY reasonable prices. I also have to thank advant123 for forcing me to listen to the wrong shoulder!

    This is completely OBD2 compatible set up. Pics to follow, I am waiting on pics of the exhaust work from Mike. THe dyno below is the standard AA stage 3 vs my new set up and a teaser pic.

    My main goal was improving the lower RPM range to 5-6K where I mainly drive. As you can see by the dyno I have 35-55 ft lbs more torque than the average higher boost TS. Unfortunately, the current injectors in the car wont let me get anymore out of it without a totally new in house tune from AA. THe car is very hard to handle right now so I didnt see the need to pursue anymore power

    I learned quite a bit during this project about these TS's. First off they need a bigger TB. I tested the inlet and found that I had a restriction that according to Kenne bell was costing me approximately 20-30 BHP. It ended up being the TB. To keep it simple I had riot racing bore me a OEM one to 70mm (about a 13% increase in flow). It worked nicely but Ideally it should be bigger. Forget all that crap about throttle response getting bad with big TB's it does apply to a draw thru TS. Infact it gets better. Hell, KB runs 140mm TB's on some of there cars. If anyone wants to know how to test for it shoot me a PM this post is already getting long.

    Second, lower compression is a killer. I intially ran a .140 with like 15-17 psi and the power sucked. Even with huge amounts of timing the car just couldnt get the cylinder pressure up high enough. We settled on a .98 since it had already be proven and the car woke up.

    Third. These cars love an open exhaust. When I finally ditched the stock stuff and went to the RMS headers and Maximum PSI exhaust thats when the magic really happened. The torque picked up all over, the boost got lower, and naturally I ran out of injector. You can see that my torque falls off a bit more that it should, I am still working on that, any tips would be apprieciated

    Finally, I have to say all in all the Autorotor blower isnt the best choice out there for more power. I think if I were to do this again I would have went with a Wipple simply for the RPM advantage. THe autorotors redline at 13000 RPM while the whipples redline at 18000 rpm...big difference. Stimpee kept pushing me to get a whipple, but since I didnt know if the cores would really take more I didnt want to get it and waste it. Whipples smallest blower is a 2.3 which I felt maybe too big for a stock motor.. Plus I really like the cosmetics of the autorotor....gay move I know. I thought about getting the autorotor 2.2, but I find that the power/boost is much better when you spin these blowers fast, the 2.2 would have required too large of a pulley to keep the boost safe and full boost would have come on later which I didnt want.

    Set up:
    93 octane, OBD 2 compliant (air pump is still there also)
    .98 MLS with arp 2000's angle torqued
    shrick exhaust cam
    Autorotor 2.0 at 14-15 psi
    RMS headers, high flow cats, reasonators and magnaflows. 2.5" SS dual exhaust
    70mm RR TB and larger K&N
    Walbro wired to the battery/adj FPR.
    The redline is 6800 RPM by my choice.

    It was fun and I am almost done with it.

    For the guys who like the uncorrected numbers they were 470whp/400wtq. Sorry the dynos are in speed but the rpm pick up was erratic. THe AFR's are great.

    JMC
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by jmc; 11-21-2008 at 09:09 PM.
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  2. #2
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    That's a healthy number right there.
    Did you look into Kenne Bell's "H" series blowers?
    They have a 2.1L which would have been an awesome fit for your need.
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    Hi Everybody

  3. #3
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    Those are real nice numbers. I wonder if you revved it 7,000; how much more it would give you??

  4. #4
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    JMC -

    Great post.. and results.

    I'm moving to a similar set-up. Motor being rebuilt now (with ARP2000s, CP Pistons), but we're maintaining stock compression and do not plan to turn the autorotor any faster. I'm also adding RMS headers (thank you Marco!) to existing 300# cats and Supersprint cat-back. At Josh's suggestion, was already running a larger Dinan throttle body and I, too, have only the Schrick exhaust cam.

    At 14-15psi, aren't you bumping up against the redline for the charger?
    [EDIT: Just noticed you have a larger 2.0L Autorotor. Mine is 1.7L and may have a lower redline.]

    I'm presently around 10.5-11.5 psi and expect that it will drop with the new headers. Still hoping to see a healthy increase in power.

    I'm not planning to add boost until TRM is ready to drop in some 42# injectors and new OBDII tune.

    Neil
    Last edited by Neil; 11-20-2008 at 07:50 PM.
    MDORPHN - 2011 Alpine White 1 Series M Coupe w/stuff

  5. #5
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    Congrats! That must be a really fun car!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ///M3weee... View Post
    That's a healthy number right there.
    Did you look into Kenne Bell's "H" series blowers?
    They have a 2.1L which would have been an awesome fit for your need.
    They dont sell blowers seperate from kits.

    JMC

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    JMC -

    Great post.. and results.

    I'm moving to a similar set-up. Motor being rebuilt now (with ARP2000s, CP Pistons, and stock headgasket), but we're maintaining stock compression and do not plan to turn the autorotor any faster. I'm also adding RMS headers (thank you Marco!) to existing 300# cats and Supersprint cat-back. At Josh's suggestion, was already running a larger Dinan throttle body and I, too, have only the Schrick exhaust cam.

    At 14-15psi, aren't you bumping up against the redline for the charger?

    I'm presently around 10.5-11.5 psi and expect that it will drop with the new headers. Still hoping to see a healthy increase.

    I'm not planning to add boost until TRM is ready to drop in some 42# injectors and new OBDII tune.

    Neil
    The 2.0L blower will do 17psi barely. If you looking for staying track worthy I would look into a different blower than the 2.0, unfortunately I dont think you could fit the 2.2 Autorotor with your set up. I know it fits the AA kit though.
    I think Josh is retrofitting a different blower maybe it has a better RPM range. I am close to the blower redline hence the 6800 rpm motor redline.
    Last edited by jmc; 11-20-2008 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  7. #7
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    those are some nice #'s congrats do you have any pics of the exhaust i was thing about doing the same
    ">


  8. #8
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    OT, BUT why doesn't AA offer their TS anymore??

  9. #9
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    ESS struck a deal with lysholm/autorotor making the blower too expensive and hard to get.

    jmc
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  10. #10
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    Congrats jmc! The suspense was killing me. I guess I need to save up for a larger throttle body (and new tune)?

    Did you manage to "quiet" it down at all?
    Last edited by WK446; 11-20-2008 at 08:38 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Man I bet thats an awesome ride. I know what my whipple feels like in my Denali and I can only imagine what it would be like in a car with a couple thousand less pounds and rwd. That thing must really be a blast to drive.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayzx7 View Post
    those are some nice #'s congrats do you have any pics of the exhaust i was thing about doing the same
    As soon as I get some I will post them. They do great work as you know, the welds are amazing. Its not a quiet set up at all. I only drive my car a few thousand miles a year so I dont mind it.

    JMC
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  13. #13
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    congrats and nice numbers. did the 2.0L autorotor just bolt up? how did spacing work out with the supercharger snout bracket? it looks like you swapped the snout so i guess the spacing would be the same? which pulley size did you use for the 2.0L twinscrew? did you have to change your belt size?

  14. #14
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    The 2.0 and 2.2 autorotors should bolt right up, with some replumbing at the back of the inlet housing for the bypass, etc due to the length.

    The 2.3 whipple would bolt right up as well, however the snout diameter is a tad smaller, so it would require a modification to the snout bracket to support it.

    Nice work Joe!

    Sorry I couldn't take your call earlier, I was in the middle of a cub scout meeting with the boy! We will catch up soon, since I need a ride!

    Have you been Screwed?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by borealiss View Post
    congrats and nice numbers. did the 2.0L autorotor just bolt up? how did spacing work out with the supercharger snout bracket? it looks like you swapped the snout so i guess the spacing would be the same? which pulley size did you use for the 2.0L twinscrew? did you have to change your belt size?
    the only mod needed is shortening the bypass hose. The blower is only longer in the back. No belt change.

    Jmc
    Last edited by jmc; 11-20-2008 at 09:48 PM.
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  16. #16
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    JMC - those are awesome numbers man. I am happy for you. I knew you had something in the works, but I didn't know it went to this extent. I love seeing people pushing their setups and coming out with great results.

    Have fun with it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    The 2.0 and 2.2 autorotors should bolt right up, with some replumbing at the back of the inlet housing for the bypass, etc due to the length.

    The 2.3 whipple would bolt right up as well, however the snout diameter is a tad smaller, so it would require a modification to the snout bracket to support it.

    Nice work Joe!

    Sorry I couldn't take your call earlier, I was in the middle of a cub scout meeting with the boy! We will catch up soon, since I need a ride!

    The 2.3 whipple would be a monster on a m3. Thats the whipple I have on my 6.0L Denali and Im making over 500 with it. Any idea what the 2.3 would make on an s52? The whipple 2.3 can also be had for good price if you look hard and don't mind a used blower.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromaguire View Post
    The 2.3 whipple would be a monster on a m3. Thats the whipple I have on my 6.0L Denali and Im making over 500 with it. Any idea what the 2.3 would make on an s52? The whipple 2.3 can also be had for good price if you look hard and don't mind a used blower.
    I have one with only a few hundred miles on it sitting on a shelf in my garage just waiting for a project!

    I think the hardware with the 2.3L blower would still be able to support 475-500 whp on the S52 with the perfect setup. It would certainly be pushing the limits of flow of the intercooler, but I think it would work.

    Maybe someday I will buy an E34 touring and stick an S52 and a 6 speed into it and build a 500whp TS setup...

    Then I would be almost as cool as Joe!

    Have you been Screwed?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    I have one with only a few hundred miles on it sitting on a shelf in my garage just waiting for a project!

    I think the hardware with the 2.3L blower would still be able to support 475-500 whp on the S52 with the perfect setup. It would certainly be pushing the limits of flow of the intercooler, but I think it would work.

    Maybe someday I will buy an E34 touring and stick an S52 and a 6 speed into it and build a 500whp TS setup...

    Then I would be almost as cool as Joe!

    Man 500whp from a twinscrew would be incredible in one of these cars. I would take a 500whp TS car over a 500whp turbo car anyday.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromaguire View Post
    Man 500whp from a twinscrew would be incredible in one of these cars. I would take a 500whp TS car over a 500whp turbo car anyday.
    +1

    Awesome numbers, jmc.
    No PMs. Email through forum please.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    I have one with only a few hundred miles on it sitting on a shelf in my garage just waiting for a project!

    I think the hardware with the 2.3L blower would still be able to support 475-500 whp on the S52 with the perfect setup. It would certainly be pushing the limits of flow of the intercooler, but I think it would work.

    Maybe someday I will buy an E34 touring and stick an S52 and a 6 speed into it and build a 500whp TS setup...

    Then I would be almost as cool as Joe!

    Your the father of ts bmw's there is no one cooler. Now sell me that 2.3


    JMC
    Motor: Hurtig/AA custom 2.0l TS OBD2 AA tuned 444whp/384wtq SAE 470whp/400wtq STD
    Exhaust RMS headers, Maximum PSI custom exhaust, magnaflow mufflers
    Driveline E46 M3 6 SPEED, 2.93 LSD, Rouge SSK/tranny mounts, UUC Ultrasmooth /LTW steel flywheel. CDV delete, UUC clutch pedal bushings with GSP pedal
    COOLING: Stewart WP, 78* thermostat, S54 radiator, Euro/S54 oil cooler, ES TS oil cooler adapter, M3 power steering cooler
    HANDLING: MR M CAR SF reinforcement, TCK D/A CO 450/500, TCK Camber Plates, Rogue RSM, Ireland SFB, Dinan STB. CCW classics, polished lip, brushed centers. P295/30/18 P245/35/18.
    THE SHOW: Stygar Z8 Nozzels, Leather Z armrest, Z8 push button start, chrome door handles, OEM FOGS, BMW Traffic Pro.
    Monitoring: PLX Wideband, VDO vision boost/VAC both with custom chrome trim ring.
    COMING SOON: custom intake

  22. #22
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    Great Job!!

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    Excellent numbers!! Great job!!

    Don

  24. #24
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    Hi everyone. I live right down the street from JMC and have had the privilege of driving this monster, and let me tell you, its absolutely awesome. Just a few weeks ago he told me to punch it from a 3rd gear 3,000 RPM roll and the car got sideways! The instantaneous torque this thing makes is awesome. The best part about this setup isn't really the awesome power, but how the car feels while driving it. It is ultra-smooth, with no check engine lights or any kind of engine problems. It truly drives like a 100% OEM car. Being a previous turbo M3 owner, I can tell you that this is not an easy task to achieve!

    Big congrats to JMC/Stimpee/AA/Maximum PSI for building an awesome street car.
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  25. #25
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    JMC, I have the exhaust pictures PM ME your email and I can send them over unless you would like me to just post them.

    One of my favorite cars! Love the sound of it! Get some bigger rubber in the rear too.
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