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Thread: MikeE36's M3 turbo trials and tribulations..

  1. #1
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    MikeE36's M3 turbo trials and tribulations..

    Hey guys,

    Thought I would post a thread documenting the progression of my 1995 M3 turbo over the last few months.. the good, the bad, and the ugly:



    The background:

    I began my setup with a '95 M3 with 180,000 miles on it.



    Considering the problems '95s are known to have with weak valve retainers, I replaced the valvesprings, retainers, keepers, and seals, along with a DrVanos stage 2 unit with polished gears.



    The turbo kit came from TRM: A stage 2 setup with 42# injectors, Porsche 803 MAF in draw-thru, and a stage 2 turbo with the .63 turbine housing for improved spool up over the larger ones since this car is intended as a daily driver, with occasional HPDE use.

    The original plan was to turbo the car with a stage 2 setup on my stock compression S50 and run around 12 psi on 93 octane..

    Well we finally got the car together and took it to the exhaust shop to have a 2.5" downpipe mated to my stock '95 cat section, which then bolted to my existing stromung cat-back. Also had the exhaust shop recirc my wastegate into the downpipe at that time to reduce noise. (Going for the sleeper theme at this point - my intercooler is black aswell)









    Once the exhaust was finished, touched up a few things and let her rip:
    Running on the wastegate spring at a measly 7.5 psi, it could spin 2nd gear with 255/40/17s out back. The car ran great and was much more powerful than I expected at only 7.5 psi. (I was basing my expectations on my dad's TTS2 car)

    Note - you can't even see the intercooler here with the bumper off, it blends in great.




    Well I drove the car home from my parents house that night to my house in downtown Austin, about 30 miles away. Drove to work the next morning, everything was perfect. The car was extremely* quiet. You could not tell it was turbocharged at all until you put your foot into the throttle a little.. then you hear the turbo spooling really loudly, like a big diesel truck. (It sounds very similar to my cousin's GT30R spooling on his STI)

    On my lunch break I decided to take the car to my friend's house and give him a ride. On my way there at a red light the car randomly dies. I had no indications anything was wrong, it was just like the car stalled. I tried to restart the car and it wouldn't. After a second try, the car wouldn't even turn over.. something had failed. We towed the car back to the house and pulled the plugs to see if we could see anything wrong. We were praying at this point I hadn't dropped a valve..

    Well the cyl 5 plug threaded out funny with extra resistance... and I found it to be completely sheared off.. upon inspection, we found pieces of the valve laying in the cylinder. Not sure what had happened at this point and really just wanted to forget the car for awhile..

    We started brainstorming what could have possibly happened @ 800 rpm that caused my engine to grenade itself.. Reinstalled keepers incorrectly? Valve retainer failed? Some other failure? I assumed if the valve keepers ("collets" I think is what BMW calls them) were installed wrong, the engine would've done this within a few minutes of the first start. I got 75 miles before this happened so this seemed unlikely. A retainer failure was also unlikely since we just changed all the retainers with new ones..

    Well we pulled everything apart after getting back from vacation to find out that an intake valve on cyl 5 broke at the stem, just under where the keeper sits. The valve dropped into the cyl and cracked the block and did some damage to the head. (Luckily this was minimal since it happened at 800rpm) The keepers were still intact on top of the broken valve and all of the retainers were fine, just as we had installed them. I'm not sure what caused this to happen but apparently its not a very common failure, according to my machinist. The valve stem literally broke just under the keeper groove and caused all of this damage:

    Dropped subframe to pull the engine:





    Sourced an M52 out of a 528i that was in a SEVERE front end collision, as indicated by the broken head..







    Turns out the block is fine - the plan is to use my S50 head after minor repairs on this M52 block with either a .120 or .140 MLS and the TRM headstud kit. We will be taking both the M52 block and the S50 head to the machine shop to be machined properly to accept an MLS, and will be double and triple checking everything in the S50 head to make sure it is up to par. (Replacing ALL the valves and guides - lesson learned!)

    I'll let the pictures do the talking now - I don't see how you guys can make such huge threads and embed all the pictures perfectly into the text. This just takes too much damn time!

    Sorry for the jumbled pictures / thread. More coming in the next post but the maximum I can do in one post is 15 pictures.
    Last edited by MikeE36; 09-27-2008 at 10:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    Pulling the head revealed this gem:


    Corresponding combustion chamber:


    Crack in cyl 5: (found coolant in oil pan)



    And here's various other pictures from the initial build that it wouldn't let me fit into the first post:








    Head off to machine shop... anyone want an S50 block? Sell it to ya CHEAP! lol


    Broken M52 head:


    M52 head - good maintenance at least, hopefully means the bottom end is solid







    Well that's all for now. The plan is to use my S50 head and cams on the M52 block, with a .120 or .140 MLS and the new ARP studs from TRM. I will be upgrading to a Walbro 255 / 60# injectors / new tune and go for a little more power this time and see what a stage 2 kit can do.

    Has anyone ever heard of a valve breaking at the top of the stem just below the keeper before? I unfortunately don't have the pictures of the valve because I lost the few that I took in the transition to my new phone.. but the valve literally broke just below the keeper groove. The retainers and keepers were found in place, on top of the spring, while the valve was down in the cylinder.. I guess 180,000 miles can be a bit stressful if maintenance isn't perfect on 6mm(?) valve stems..

    Any comments / criticism (be nice) / suggestions are appreciated. Happy boosting guys!
    Last edited by MikeE36; 09-27-2008 at 10:10 PM.

  3. #3
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    Look foward to see how everything turns out for ya. Good Luck
    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
    ― George Orwell

  4. #4
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    yup. i had the same problem like you with my other motor. the valve broke on the top and damaged my new motor, so i go with super tech spring & retainer

    9.05@157mph
    9.14@159mph
    9.15@158mph

  5. #5
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    Damn thats some bad luck! As David said, go with Super Tech, good and cost effective. Have you considered low compression pistons vs using the M52 bottom end? You could use your S50 crank and rods, providing they all check out okay, with custom pistons. Almost have 3L of displacement (I wouldn't want to punch the cylinders out so far) and you could run a stock thickness headgasket.

  6. #6
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    nice keep the info comming good luck

  7. #7
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    Ouch. Your troubles put mine in perspective. Keep the faith...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiGmA View Post
    Damn thats some bad luck! As David said, go with Super Tech, good and cost effective. Have you considered low compression pistons vs using the M52 bottom end? You could use your S50 crank and rods, providing they all check out okay, with custom pistons. Almost have 3L of displacement (I wouldn't want to punch the cylinders out so far) and you could run a stock thickness headgasket.

    Pistons have been considered but I am trying to keep the build cost-effective if I can. If the cylinders need to be bored and we can't re-use the stock pistons, then low compression pistons may be the solution along with a stock thickness MLS. This is obviously the preferred solution but it does seem that many people have had good luck with stock M52 bottom ends and just a gasket. I'm positive the S50 crank is fine, but the extra .1 or .2L displacement may not be worth it. I may end up trying to sell the S50 crank and rods and just use the M52 equipment.
    Spool-up isn't that important to me at this point, I chose a big turbo from the get-go and it spools as such so 2.8 liters should be just fine. If I do end up trying to use the S50 crank in the 84mm block, I would have to get custom pistons anyway and wouldn't be able to re-use the M52 pistons. If I can get away with it, the M52 bottom end will stay stock with just new rings / bearings / seals.

    The next bottleneck to look at is my exhaust though.. If I try to get tuned for a bit more boost on this next setup, I think I will find my current setup very laggy and not producing as much power as it should given a proper 3" turbo exhaust. Even on the 10.5 CR stock 3.0 liter, the turbo would "hit" hard around 3800-4000 RPM, much higher than necessary for a turbo this size, especially with the .63 back housing, so I think the exhaust is probably the culprit.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidtm5 View Post
    yup. i had the same problem like you with my other motor. the valve broke on the top and damaged my new motor, so i go with super tech spring & retainer
    What do you mean by solving with super tech springs and retainers?

    We already replaced the springs and retainers as a preventative measure - the valve stem simply broke just below the keeper groove. Not sure how I could have prevented this other than replacing all of the valves beforehand.

  10. #10
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    Pictures of valve failure to clarify problem:








    The valve sheared off just below the keeper groove. The springs and retainers were all intact with all of the keepers still installed. The valve was just missing! I've posted another thread regarding this specific failure if anyone has insight about the failure or has seen a valve shear off in this specific fashion before.

    Please continue discussion about failure here:
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...5#post14251505

    Other comments / criticism / suggestions about the new setup are always appreciated.

    Has anyone installed the TRM headstud kit yet and did you have a problem with the larger nuts for the headstuds or was this a non-issue? I don't want to have to pull the cams to retorque the head, that's ridiculous.

    Paging Mike R. for insight on the headstud situation..

  11. #11
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    The nuts are the same size as the old stud set.
    No PMs. Email through forum please.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    The nuts are the same size as the old stud set.

    So the head can be torqued with the cams installed?

    Do they require a re-torque after x heat cycles or x number of miles?

    Thanks for the info Matt.

  13. #13
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    Yes, you can torque the head studs with the cams installed. No retorque needed.
    No PMs. Email through forum please.

  14. #14
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    Well its been a long time since I've updated this thread. My car has been sitting in the garage on the lift for over a year now. (Since the engine failure in 2008).

    I've now got a slightly different setup coming together, and I've got a tiny bit of progress so I'll post a little now.

    If you read above, you'll see my S50 block is junk now, and the head was severely damaged in the cyl5 combustion chamber also due to the valve stem being smacked around by the piston.

    Long story short:

    84mm M52 block bored and cleaned up cylinders
    84.5mm wiseco 8.5:1 TRM pistons
    Eagle 135 mm connecting rods
    S50 crank
    S50 head/cams
    ARP2000 head studs
    .080" MLS
    60# injectors
    MaxPsi Walbro kit + wiring
    TRM custom tune (may go with multi-tune also )
    Southbend Stage 5 clutch kit (Thanks Jordan!!)
    Racelogic TC
    3.23 LSD
    Possibly converting from the Tial50mm bov to a Synapse valve also..

    Also getting some coilovers, wanted the TRM ones but they're out of stock for awhile and I may need some a little sooner than they can have them. Does anyone have a good coilover suspension recommendation around the $1,000-$1,650 area? I'd like to be able to put down the power reliably and suspension is a big factor.

    Head before:

    After: (cyl5)



    Cams in:




    Some cool HDR-type pictures my friend Brian took while the car is sitting in the garage:

    Top Mount?


    Hooray for progress.. Hopefully I'll be able to start bolting up the turbo bits to the completed engine on an engine stand within 3 weeks or so.


    Mike

    some parts pictures since I'm not sure I posted these on BFC yet:




    Mike
    Last edited by MikeE36; 09-14-2009 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  15. #15
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    That's totally fine.... Good luck man!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post


  16. #16
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    SWEET!!! Looks like the cars going in a great direction, too bad about the valve failure.

    Best of luck dude!
    -Chris

  17. #17
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    Good luck on the build. Hope to see it on the road soon!

    1995 M3 Vortech Supercharged

  18. #18
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    Well, I've been busy with school and ski trips, but I've finally gotten my ass in gear to get this thing running. I'm tired of not driving it. (Even though DDing another TRM car is plenty fun )

















    Missing 2 alignment dowels here. Found 1 but waiting on the other.


    Waiting on 1 alignment dowel from the dealer before I can put the head on. Going to install the MLS dry with Gray RTV on the front timing cover, as per TRMs recommendation after looking at my block and head finish.

    Hopefully that dowel will be in today or tomorrow, and I can get the head on and torqued, and bolt up the exhaust manifold and turbo, etc. in the next few days.

    P.S. Someone buy my vaders! /shameless plug

    Thanks for looking,

    Mike
    Last edited by MikeE36; 02-12-2010 at 11:23 AM.
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  19. #19
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    Nice man Its about time, you'll be loving it again once its together!

  20. #20
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    Today's Progress:

    Rear suspension is on and buttoned up
    Tab/Rivet sticking out on headgasket and blocking the turbo was cut off
    Turbo is on along with intake pipe and hot-side charge pipe
    Couple belt tensioners are on
    Alternator
    Checked torque on head studs again, and retorqued again since the gasket has settled more
    Attemped to modify the Corbeau seat brackets to accept the stock seat belt receptacles but that is proving to be VERY frustrating, so I'll work on that more later.

    Pics:







    Thanks for looking,

    Mike

    P.S. Suggestions on mounting the stock seat belt receptacles/pre-tensioners to Corbeau sliding seat rails are GREATLY appreciated. At the stock 90* angle, the seat belt pre-tensioner hits the transmission tunnel when mounted to the rail and will not allow the rail to line up with the 4 floor-pan holes. I attempted to bend the bracket inwards toward the seat some to get more clearance and I think that is going to work, but I've only done the passenger side and would LOVE for there to be something easier for the driver's side.
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  21. #21
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    i had a valve do the same thing at 2200 rpm, luckly it dinged the piston a bit then bent itself into the head. 88 miles on a brand new head, it sucked. seems like its a common thing though

    on a positive note,car looks absolutely beautiful, what numbers are you shooting for?
    2010 - BMW 335i M-Sport - Lemans Blue Metallic
    BMW PPK2, JB4 with NLS, Backend Flash, BMW PP Exhaust, Misc Appearance Mods, Boost Addictions Diff Brace, BMS DCIs, BMS Clutch Stop, VRSF Catless DPs

    Previous:
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    1998 323is

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volcom8190 View Post
    i had a valve do the same thing at 2200 rpm, luckly it dinged the piston a bit then bent itself into the head. 88 miles on a brand new head, it sucked. seems like its a common thing though

    on a positive note,car looks absolutely beautiful, what numbers are you shooting for?
    Thanks. Really would like 550/550 but I won't be disappointed anywhere above 500. I think I'll have a tiny bit of power loss since it's only a 2.9 instead of a 3.2, and I have S50 cams instead of S52.. but it should still make great power on 93. We'll see how much TRM can squeeze out once I take it to Atlanta for a custom tune.

    Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  23. #23
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    Id use some harnesses with thoes seats. Feels very nice.

  24. #24
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    I guess your dad has the turbo green E34?
    1995 M3 LTW - S54 - Moton - DiffsOnline
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan-N-Austin View Post
    I guess your dad has the turbo green E34?
    Yeah. I've been daily driving it for quite awhile now. It's a lot of fun.

    Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

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