E46 Subframe Repair

[ccunning]

I think I'm going to go ahead and have the E46 subframe reinforcement kit installed as a preventative measure. Can anyone recommend a shop in the area that can do a good job with this at a fair price?

[jkuper]

RRT www.roadracetech.com

[nick325xit 5spd]

Installing the reinforcement kit as a preventative measure is just stupid. And this is coming from a guy who's torn out two E46 subframes.

[OBD1328]

Installing the reinforcement kit as a preventative measure is just stupid. And this is coming from a guy who's torn out two E46 subframes.

Yes because its worth having it rip first. I vote this for dumbest comment of the day.

[nick325xit 5spd]

Yes because its worth having it rip first. I vote this for dumbest comment of the day.

And exactly how many subframe tears actually occur? (Very few) And how much extra labor is it to fix if you're paying any attention to sudden changes in handling? (Generally, you just weld up a few inches of cracking , grind it flat where the plate goes, and weld the plate on. Extra cost? Maybe two hours if the shop is raping you.)

Explain to me why, exactly, it makes sense to spend around $1K to prevent a failure that is EXTREMELY unlikely for most people (especially people with 325s) and which doesn't cost much extra to fix if you wait until after it happens. Moreover, welding under the car COMPROMISES your rust protection, so most cars will actually have their lives shortened by the installation of the rear subframe reinforcement kit. The only time it makes sense to install the kit is either after a failure or when your subframe bushings have worn out and you've dropped the rear axle anyway.

:

[ccunning]

RRT www.roadracetech.com

Awesome. Thanks for the link. Any clue what their hourly rates are? I searched their forum and they quote 13 hours labor for the work.


Thanks!

[OBD1328]

And exactly how many subframe tears actually occur? (Very few) And how much extra labor is it to fix if you're paying any attention to sudden changes in handling? (Generally, you just weld up a few inches of cracking , grind it flat where the plate goes, and weld the plate on. Extra cost? Maybe two hours if the shop is raping you.)

Explain to me why, exactly, it makes sense to spend around $1K to prevent a failure that is EXTREMELY unlikely for most people (especially people with 325s) and which doesn't cost much extra to fix if you wait until after it happens. Moreover, welding under the car COMPROMISES your rust protection, so most cars will actually have their lives shortened by the installation of the rear subframe reinforcement kit. The only time it makes sense to install the kit is either after a failure or when your subframe bushings have worn out and you've dropped the rear axle anyway.

:

For any car that is going to see track time this isn't optional preventive maintenance. It has nothing to do with how much power the car is putting down. Combine stiff suspension with an unforgiving drivetrain and there is your recipe for disaster. Welding doesn't compromise the cars ability to prevent rust. They make the same protectant the factory sprays on in an aerosol can.

[OBD1328]

And to the OP, if you're willing to drive to central jersey, Mike Radowski will do the reinforcement for ~650

[ccunning]

And exactly how many subframe tears actually occur? (Very few) And how much extra labor is it to fix if you're paying any attention to sudden changes in handling? (Generally, you just weld up a few inches of cracking , grind it flat where the plate goes, and weld the plate on. Extra cost? Maybe two hours if the shop is raping you.)

Explain to me why, exactly, it makes sense to spend around $1K to prevent a failure that is EXTREMELY unlikely for most people (especially people with 325s) and which doesn't cost much extra to fix if you wait until after it happens. Moreover, welding under the car COMPROMISES your rust protection, so most cars will actually have their lives shortened by the installation of the rear subframe reinforcement kit. The only time it makes sense to install the kit is either after a failure or when your subframe bushings have worn out and you've dropped the rear axle anyway.

:

I certainly don't claim to be an authority, but I decided to have the work done when I decided I want to do some performance work as well. I'm really not thrilled about the prospect precisely because of the loss of rust protection you mention which is why I'm looking for a reputable shop to do the work. I just want to have a solid foundation for any additional mods. Especially being as how I'm not gentile on the car as it is.

[ccunning]

And to the OP, if you're willing to drive to central jersey, Mike Radowski will do the reinforcement for ~650

Could be worth it depending on what quote I get from RRT.

Hope this isn't too stupid a question, but should I know who Mike Radowski is?

[OBD1328]

Cold be worth it depending on what quote I get from RRT.

Hope this isn't too stupid a question, but should I know who Mike Radowski is?

http://www.maximumpsi.com/

[nick325xit 5spd]

For any car that is going to see track time this isn't optional preventive maintenance. It has nothing to do with how much power the car is putting down. Combine stiff suspension with an unforgiving drivetrain and there is your recipe for disaster. Welding doesn't compromise the cars ability to prevent rust. They make the same protectant the factory sprays on in an aerosol can.

Actually, there are two things that contribute to subframe mount failures. Stiff suspension is largely irrelevant except that it wears on the things that fail first:

1) Engine use. Subframe mount failure comes from use of the engine.
2) Worn rear suspension bushings, especially RTABs.

So yes, it's all about the power. Why do you think that 330ds are the cars that see the majority of subframe mount failures? Is it the track use and stiff suspension?

Edit: And you will never, EVER have full rust proofing back unless you dip the rear chassis in primer. Do you really think that the stuff you can see is the only metal that's exposed? (And the rattle can primer, no matter how good, just is not the same as a baked on powder coat. Don't make me laugh.)

[Shady3One3]

I think I'm pretty good friends with over a hundred e46 owners and I'd say 1 in 5 of them has had tearing subframe issues. That includes 323, 328, 325 and 330 owners, with a pretty equal spread in numbers for each model. Even a bunch of m3 owners I know have had the same issue.

The reinforcement kit is absolutely good preventative maintenance. There are many people who won't notice the early symptoms of a cracking/tearing subframe until its too late - making the repair far more costly. Example: one friend of mine from up in NY had his entire rear subframe FALL OUT. It was a heavy, slow showcar that had 20k miles on it and was never driven hard.

If you use it as an opportunity to do some other maintenance stuff in the same area it is most definitely worth it.

[ccunning]

OK. If anyone is interested, I just talked to Tom at RRT and his recommendation was that if it is a track car this needs to be done however if the car is only going to tracked a couple times a year to just keep an eye on it for signs of cracking. He said if it's caught early the cost of repairing it is nominally more than if done as a preventative measure.

Also, their hourly rate is $95.

[Andy]

Have you contacted BMWNA? Since BMW suks at building cars, get them to fix it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=453529

[jkuper]

I bet those heavy-ass Hamanns did it.

[ccunning]

Have you contacted BMWNA? Since BMW suks at building cars, get them to fix it.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=453529

It's not broken yet. As I mentioned, I wanted to have it done as preventative maintenance. Unless BMWNA will do that for free as well

[nick325xit 5spd]

OK. If anyone is interested, I just talked to Tom at RRT and his recommendation was that if it is a track car this needs to be done however if the car is only going to tracked a couple times a year to just keep an eye on it for signs of cracking. He said if it's caught early the cost of repairing it is nominally more than if done as a preventative measure.

Also, their hourly rate is $95.

Yes, exactly. It's a total waste of money to do it preventatively on a car that's not getting seriously abused.

It took 40-50 track days, hundreds of autox runs, and 35,000 miles to tear in my '04. The 323i took 120,000 miles, and the last track days I ran before getting my club racing license, and showed the tiniest little crack as it was getting the reinforcements installed because I had the rear axle out for new bushings. And really, it tore because it was run really hard with OLD and cracked bushings. (And because the '99-'00 cars are actually a LOT weaker than the '01+ E46es.)

[Shady3One3]

Yes, exactly. It's a total waste of money to do it preventatively on a car that's not getting seriously abused.

Im not trying to pick a fight about this, but go on E46fanatics.com and search the subframe threads. You'll see countless people that have had the problem, and I bet less than 10 are tracked regularly.

[nick325xit 5spd]

Im not trying to pick a fight about this, but go on E46fanatics.com and search the subframe threads. You'll see countless people that have had the problem, and I bet less than 10 are tracked regularly.

a) That's not that many cars.
b) The vast majority of them are 323s and 328s, whihc had a MUCH bigger problem than the later cars as BMW really actively screwed the pooch on them.

Here's a list a looked at:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...postcount=1137

(And for the record, I don't think the 323/328s should get it preventatively, either. Even though they're many times more likely to have the failure, it's still not that likely.)

[RRT]

Here is a car we just put on the lift today. Car has never been on the track or seen an autox. This damage is pretty bad and is going to take a couple extra hours to realign and fix. If had been caught earlier the fix would be several hundred dollars cheaper. Without looking at the books, this is aprrox the 6th subframe repair we've had to do in 6 months...

[M Dizzle]

not sure who posted that pic, but could you or someone explain why installing the reinforcement plates prior to failure vs fixing an already torn subframe would require more money?

Mine has not ripped yet, and I had reasoned that I could wait until it did rip to spend the money on the reinforcements since it seemed to be the same labor/parts?

poor reasoning?

[RRT]

not sure who posted that pic, but could you or someone explain why installing the reinforcement plates prior to failure vs fixing an already torn subframe would require more money?

Mine has not ripped yet, and I had reasoned that I could wait until it did rip to spend the money on the reinforcements since it seemed to be the same labor/parts?

poor reasoning?

Installing them before failure cost less than installing after failure. If we install the plates before the failure, we do not have to worry about the alignment of the studs coming out of the chassis, you simply weld the reinforcements on and go. If it tears out, tears slightly and bends, whatever... then we have to take extra steps in lining up the studs coming out of the chassis to make sure the subframe goes back into place. With the picture posted above, as soon as we take that subframe out the weld nuts are going to be jacked if not fall out of the car. It takes time to align the up prefectly beacuse we then have to put the frame back into place, tack stuff down, pull it back down then continue to weld. That is plain and simple time consuming if you want it done correctly.

edit...
if you catch it when it starts to slightly crack, you will be fine, the fix is easy, but if it starts to crack and tear and bend slightly then it takes time
done edit...

to quote the guy earlier...

"OK. If anyone is interested, I just talked to Tom at RRT and his recommendation was that if it is a track car this needs to be done however if the car is only going to tracked a couple times a year to just keep an eye on it for signs of cracking. He said if it's caught early the cost of repairing it is nominally more than if done as a preventative measure."

You do not necessarily have to get it done before it starts to tear, just make damn sure you keep an eye out on it on a regular basis so when it does start to tear, you fix it before you have the problem like seen above.

It is the customers prerogative, some people do not wish to have to keep an eye out for it and will get the job done preventative, some people will wait till it happens then get it fixed, some get lucky and it never happens.

Barry

[Neil]

Here is a car we just put on the lift today. Car has never been on the track or seen an autox. This damage is pretty bad and is going to take a couple extra hours to realign and fix. If had been caught earlier the fix would be several hundred dollars cheaper. Without looking at the books, this is aprrox the 6th subframe repair we've had to do in 6 months...

Yikes, sure wouldn't want that car to be part of my family's fleet.

Oh, wait...

Neil

[MdMcoupe]

Yikes, sure wouldn't want that car to be part of my family's fleet.

Oh, wait...

Neil

I guess BMW hasn't learned after the Z3 debacle...

Oh wait both of my E21's ripped apart (79' and 81'), and so did my E30 M3.