Proof K&N filters kill your MAF!

[JackEatsEmoKids]

I've had a drop in filter for months, then as you all know I made my own intake using a K&N filter.

I was changing my tranny fluid at work and also put back my drivers seat harness to get my Air Bag light off and get my telescopic steering back.

When I was clearing the air bag light, I just went into the DME Diagnosis Queries and looked my Air Mass Meter readings, they were too low. Also my multiplicative values were 1.9 for bank 1 and 2.8 for bank 2. Car is running way to rich under acceleration. Hence the K&N oil is causing bad readings.

So a new AFM costs me $274 that I don't have, so all you guys have had good success with the MAF cleaner? I'm also going to buy an AEM or ITG dry filter so this never happens again.

[Orxan4ik]

Mine didnt tho =( Try CRC before u spend $274 bucks

[dbruce]

I'd take a look at the following thread for I6 MAF options.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=291691

You can find a rebuilt for as little as 117......if you use the Hyundai part, which seems to be identical.

[JackEatsEmoKids]

Originally Posted by dbruce

I'd take a look at the following thread for I6 MAF options.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=291691

You can find a rebuilt for as little as 117......if you use the Hyundai part, which seems to be identical.

Thanks, but I have a 530. Different MAF than the 2.5 and 2.8L engines.

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by JackEatsEmoKids

Thanks, but I have a 530. Different MAF than the 2.5 and 2.8L engines.

Thanks.....good to know. That puts at least 3 different MAF's I know of that are in the E39 I6 cars. If you can find out who makes the MAF (I'm sure its around somewhere), you can cross check on the manufacturers site if another brand of car uses it. Might get lucky.

In the thread I posted, Siemens cross lists all cars using the same part with a PDF. I'm sure Bosch etc have a similar catalog.

Correction:

According to Pelican, you use the same part:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/cata..._pg2.htm#item3

[dbruce]

Bump....for the correction above.

[JackEatsEmoKids]

Originally Posted by dbruce

Bump....for the correction above.

No sir, Pelican is incorrect. A 528/525 MAF are smaller in diameter than a 530 which is 3.5" diameter.

[thejlevie]

So now there's another believer. Oiled or more open air filters are bad for the MAF, which is what I've been saying for a long time. Other than sound, it is really difficult to improve on BMW's airbox. Though on an E39 that takes the foam/paper filter, there's a slight gain to be had from switching to an E36 all paper filter, which is also the part used on an E46 M3.

[JackEatsEmoKids]

Originally Posted by thejlevie

So now there's another believer. Oiled or more open air filters are bad for the MAF, which is what I've been saying for a long time. Other than sound, it is really difficult to improve on BMW's airbox. Though on an E39 that takes the foam/paper filter, there's a slight gain to be had from switching to an E36 all paper filter, which is also the part used on an E46 M3.

Yup, I threw out my old air box....but I'm just going with an ITG or AEM dry filter now...

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by JackEatsEmoKids

No sir, Pelican is incorrect. A 528/525 MAF are smaller in diameter than a 530 which is 3.5" diameter.

Yep, just tracked it down to 5WK96132Z in the following catalog:

http://www.krautli.pt/catalogos/SIEM...de%20Motor.pdf

Bummer.

[shogo3232]

do a dinan MAF, lol

soo, i was looking at doing a K & N filter. so now i shouldn't?? damn

[Mr Hyde]

Originally Posted by JackEatsEmoKids

I just went into the DME Diagnosis Queries and looked my Air Mass Meter readings, they were too low. Also my multiplicative values were 1.9 for bank 1 and 2.8 for bank 2. Car is running way to rich under acceleration. Hence the K&N oil is causing bad readings.

Did you have readings from before the K&N filter install? That would be proof that the K&N killed them.

Fact of the matter is the MAFS in our cars are as reliable, and durable as the cooling systems. People are having them fail every day; regardless of the type of air filter they run.

[GDJ]

Wonder if there is enough room in the engine compartment to go to a dual airbox setup. Two paper filters running in parallel would provide nearly nil for restriction.

Just throwing a thought out there......

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by GDJ

Wonder if there is enough room in the engine compartment to go to a dual airbox setup. Two paper filters running in parallel would provide nearly nil for restriction.

Just throwing a thought out there......

Most modern cars, and I can't imagine any BMW's being an exception, have little if any restriction in the exhaust and intake. Back in my Miata days, anyone asking for performance gains from an intake change was quickly informed that removing the entire intake and letting the car run right off the hose provided no gain (someone tested).

K&N is bunk and does more harm then good.

[NNY528I]

K&N is fine, I have 45k miles on mine with no issues at all, and almost 150k on my pickup with no issues. The key is how you prepare the filter. Most people over oil them and clean them too frequently which does not help. Also i suspect that people are blaming the filter for other issues that are occurring.

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by NNY528I

K&N is fine, I have 45k miles on mine with no issues at all, and almost 150k on my pickup with no issues. The key is how you prepare the filter. Most people over oil them and clean them too frequently which does not help. Also i suspect that people are blaming the filter for other issues that are occurring.

There are several tests all over the web related to air filters....but the following sums up the conclusions all come to.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

[JackEatsEmoKids]

Originally Posted by NNY528I

K&N is fine, I have 45k miles on mine with no issues at all, and almost 150k on my pickup with no issues. The key is how you prepare the filter. Most people over oil them and clean them too frequently which does not help. Also i suspect that people are blaming the filter for other issues that are occurring.

You might not know it. Mine never threw a check engine light. I've done cars with the check engine light due to the MAF.

The filter I has was pre-oiled

[JackEatsEmoKids]

Originally Posted by Mr Hyde

Did you have readings from before the K&N filter install? That would be proof that the K&N killed them.

Fact of the matter is the MAFS in our cars are as reliable, and durable as the cooling systems. People are having them fail every day; regardless of the type of air filter they run.

No, I never thought of looking at it before. I've noticed my gas milage going down also, thats what made me check it that day. I'm going to try the MAF cleaner first.

[Mr Hyde]

Originally Posted by dbruce

There are several tests all over the web related to air filters....but the following sums up the conclusions all come to.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

Even better, do a test on your own of your own oil. I did a UOA on my oil over a winter running a GruppeM intake. Results didnt show any problems whatsoever. Despite road salt/sand all winter long, insolubles were low, and silicone levels were well below averages. They actually commented that the engine was wearing very nicely.

On some cars, intakes dont do much, but on others they absolutely do have benefits. Whether or not they are worth it to you in terms of cost, or noise penalty is up for you to decide.

P.S. Our MAFS are just not that durable. Their performance just declines as they age, and they'll only throw a code when they are completely shot. The M5 guys just change them at certain intervals, or after testing through the OBC. Performance/MPG is lost well before a code is ever thrown.

[NNY528I]

There is a problem with those tests. Colormetric tests that he references in his text are those that use the response of light of a known and controlled wavelength. These use dyes that have very predictable and controlled responses under very specific conditions. His test is based soley on a visual comparison which is interesting but is far from a controlled or reproducible test.

A proper test would use gravametric analysis and multiple filter stages to determine bothe the mass of any particles which passed through but also test to determine what amount of breakthrough might have occured. The addition of carefully controlled membrane filters to determine the size distribution of the particle would be even more appropriate(progressively smaller openings). It is as likely that the smaller particles would lodge near the surface of the secondary filter causing it to appear darker than particles that had a greater mass and were able to move deeper into the secondary filter. the last thing this test fails to address is performance over time. Paper filters clog very quickly compared to foam or gauze filters and their performance decreases with their level or contamination where as the foam and gauze tend to filter better as they get dirty while slowly losing some amount of flow.

[NNY528I]

Why would the reading on the two banks be different if the problem was the MAF sensor? The MAF feeds both banks a the same time, if it was the MAF then the problem should be equally shared by both banks, on the other hand the O2 sensors are bank specific and are far more involved in adjusting the fuel flow and mileage. I think you have made some bad connections here and you are miss diagnosing the cause of your problem.

[Jim530i]

I'm kinda convinced that K&N does indeed kill your MAF and throttle body with oil.....

If anyone can tell me the Sonata's part number for my 2001 530iA, it would be great

When I have that number, I'm gonna replace mine right away...

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by NNY528I

There is a problem with those tests. Colormetric tests that he references in his text are those that use the response of light of a known and controlled wavelength. These use dyes that have very predictable and controlled responses under very specific conditions. His test is based soley on a visual comparison which is interesting but is far from a controlled or reproducible test.

Conforti, back when he first designed his E36 M3 intake kit and chips etc, refused to use K&N and oiled filters specifically because they clogged quickly (this was back in the day when he posted on boards......and boy did he have a temper). He used AEM or AGM filter media instead.

In all tests I've read related to long term use, the oiled filters clog quicker. Also in all tests, and you can find quite a few similar to the one I posted, as well as bobistheoil guy tests with people comparing standard paper with K&N when doing oil tests, it lets in more crap.

For me, the K&N provides little benefit and several possible issues (MAF, degraded filtration). Before people started testing them, there might be some doubt as to issues related to their use. With TSB's and plenty of people running their own tests.........I see little doubt these days and more importantly, no advantage to using them.....especially on a stock, non-turbo car.

I'm took lazy to find the actual tests.....put if your looking for more "scientific" testing....... the following might help: http://www.autoblog.com/2005/09/07/h...-filters-work/

Actually, it took 2 seconds to find:

http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

[dbruce]

Originally Posted by Jim530i

If anyone can tell me the Sonata's part number for my 2001 530iA, it would be great

Slap in an I6 2.8 and I'll have a Hyundai MAF for you ASAP.

[Paintballistic]

here ya go jim, read this. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=291691