Which 6pt harnesses? College student budget

[seatown88]

Originally Posted by savage217

Geez even more of a reason not to buy them...

+1 haha

[savage217]

i used to have sparco 3 point crap belts and they were very close to being expired. I was told to be sure to get new ones for next season or they would not pass me for tech inspection. This was with the boston chapter bmw cca.

[clopez95m3]

Originally Posted by BobWright

Colors aside....the Schroths dont slip at all....anyone that has seen me knows I am way top heavy and have to strap in until it hurts. I go NOWHERE man.....

Yeah Anthony was a little floppy in your belts. One thing for sure I like adjusting 2" belts on the fly better than 3" ones like you have. If you're a HANS wearer which most BMW club racers are I'd go with Schroth 2" ones (I don't know all the different model names). I helped install a set of the double shoulder ones this year and those were very cool. Probably pretty pricey though.

Carlos.

[Evergreen Dan]

'round these parts, belts can't be expired at a DE. I'm not sure the logic of "oh, it's just a DE, so expired belts are OK". You can crash in a DE just as hard as in a race.

I can't believe that a proper adjuster can slip during normal use, but hold tight without any slippage in a high-g impact. I'd buy a different belt.

For myself, I find pull-up's MUCH easier to get tight yourself. You can push the latch toward the adjuster with one hand and pull with the other. I simply don't have the strength to get pull-downs adequately tight if the adjuster falls toward your side (which it usually does). Obviously this may depend upon the seat.

If I get in a car and can't get the belts tight, I get someone to help me. Remember, the laps should be REALLY tight.

Also, 2" laps > 3" laps, unless forbidden by rules. Illiac crest and all.

[43bullet]

so what parts on a belt fail after the expiration date? the stitching? the polyester is weaker? just curious. has anyone ever seen a belt fail? (not that you would want to..)

[Evergreen Dan]

I looked for the charts of webbing strength versus age (quite different for nylon vs. polyester, too), but I couldn't find them. If you're really interested, call HMS.

Webbing looses strength quite quickly from age, UV exposure and maybe other factors. Excessive? Who knows, but I don't want to be the one to find out.

[ffej]

This deal just showed up in my inbox this morning...

http://www.soloperformance.com/Ultra...ss_p_1546.html

[Evergreen Dan]

Originally Posted by ffej

This deal just showed up in my inbox this morning...

http://www.soloperformance.com/Ultra...ss_p_1546.html

SFI. Two years. Just sayin' $149 for 2 years vs. Clubman $200 for 5 years. If you need to care about expiration.

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted by Evergreen Dan

I looked for the charts of webbing strength versus age (quite different for nylon vs. polyester, too), but I couldn't find them. If you're really interested, call HMS.

Webbing looses strength quite quickly from age, UV exposure and maybe other factors. Excessive? Who knows, but I don't want to be the one to find out.

Makes you wonder with all the regular vehicles on the road with 10+ year old belts and they survive crashes just fine. I can understand requiring belt changes if the rules change or they are involved in accident... but hey that's the price you pay. However, for DE I think it's a little over the top to be constantly replacing belts

[JClark]

Originally Posted by Evergreen Dan

'round these parts, belts can't be expired at a DE. I'm not sure the logic of "oh, it's just a DE, so expired belts are OK". You can crash in a DE just as hard as in a race.

I'm not sure of the logic of replacing perfectly good belts every 4 (or whatever) years by anyone, but what do I know. Many DE groups dont have or dont enforce a belts rule, so many people buy good condition used belts and save themselves a few hundred bucks.

[ffej]

Originally Posted by Evergreen Dan

SFI. Two years. Just sayin' $149 for 2 years vs. Clubman $200 for 5 years. If you need to care about expiration.

Ahhh, didn't think of that angle. I was under the impression that the Clubman was NLA?



(edit: now that I've looked, I see it everywhere )

[checkerboard6]

Have you considered the SafeQuip Latch and Link Harnesses? They aren't as pretty as the camlocks but have some benefits (cost, ease of adjustment).

The thing I like about them most is that the lap belt adjustment happens at the center buckle. For me (165#) the lap belt buckles for the camlocks are always in an akward location.

I had mine built to accept the HANS. They narrow the shoulder belts.

They have both 5 and 6 point lower belts.

I think you could get them for about $100 a side.

Good luck.

[adstock]

I just picked up some seats last night and the guy was very generous and threw in a Schroth Profi II-6 that expires in 2011 and some other goodies. So, I'll probably just end up getting a Clubman for the passenger seat from HMS.

Thanks everyone for all your help

[savage217]

Originally Posted by bmwpowere36m3

Makes you wonder with all the regular vehicles on the road with 10+ year old belts and they survive crashes just fine. I can understand requiring belt changes if the rules change or they are involved in accident... but hey that's the price you pay. However, for DE I think it's a little over the top to be constantly replacing belts

I've heard factory belts are made out of different material then harnesses that expire. The quickfits do not expire because they are supposedly made out of the same material as factory belts.

[43bullet]

I just had HMS send me a new set of profile II belts - I had crow enterprises sfi with 2000 exp in one car. the are barely used, cause the car didn't get much track time. but I dont want to show up and have somebody checking belt expiration and decide that I can't drive a DE.

PCA i think routinely checks, but don't know bout other groups like track daze, track masters, bmw cca, etc

[Evergreen Dan]

Congrats on your new belts. Please read the installation instructions before you start. Then read them again. Improperly installed harnesses are much worse than stock belts. Mess up your brakes and you'll know when you give that little LFB on pit road. Mess up your belts and you may never know.

Common errors:
1) Improper weaving through buckles, particularly through 3-bars. Check all points, including sub. This error probably accounts for half of errors our club sees because the buckle "looks fine" when it's not doubled back. Different buckles require different weaving patterns -- follow the mfgr instructions.
2) Buckle not adjacent to mounting point (e.g. 3-bar away from harness bar). Another biggie. 6" of slack between the 3-bar and the harness bar will be 12" when the buckle slides back to the bar. Don't believe me? Read the instructions. I can yank slack through the buckle by hand.
3) Webbing not pulling straight on anchor. If the anchor pulls on the edge of the webbing, it cut the webbing.
4) Improper geometry, particularly shoulder grommets too low for driver.
5) Subs must go through seat bottom, never around seat front. (Formula style sub belts go back and you sit on them.)
6) Adjuster must be free. If the adjusters are bound up in the grommet, they may well rotate to the open (sliding / adjusting) position when they are pulled on in a impact.
7) Nothing sharp to cut belts.
8) Tails sufficiently long (see mfgr specs). Some slack will pull through the buckle in an impact.

We find harness errors at almost every single event. Given that most cars have stock belts and that many cars have been through our tech, this isn't a good statistic. At a recent LeMons race, I'd guess there were serious installation errors in 25% of the cars. I've seen error in belts installed by race shops.

[mohaughn]

Originally Posted by savage217

I've heard factory belts are made out of different material then harnesses that expire. The quickfits do not expire because they are supposedly made out of the same material as factory belts.

Wouldn't they have to have an FIA or SFI cert in the first place for the cert to expire?

Sounds like an easy way around the problem for DE's that don't require belts to have a certification. Just buy some e-bay cheap belts that don't have an SFI/FIA cert, then there is nothing to expire, or any way to prove when they were manufactured. Not something I would ever recommend, but a pretty big loop hole, of course, that depends on the DE rules.

NHRA requires belt to be changed at two years. I was doing some reading on the web from different forms of motorsports and it seems like drag racers are known to buy 20$ sfi side nets, and pull/swap the tags to keep from replacing their belts..

I plan on looking into the groups that are testing old/used belts when mine expire so I can maybe help prove/disprove this whole 2/5 year thing.

[Evergreen Dan]

Originally Posted by mohaughn

drag racers are known to buy 20$ sfi side nets, and pull/swap the tags to keep from replacing their belts

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted by savage217

I've heard factory belts are made out of different material then harnesses that expire. The quickfits do not expire because they are supposedly made out of the same material as factory belts.

Maybe they should make them out of the same material , then we wouldn't have to replace our belts so often

I have a feeling that companies that produce safety equipment (HANS) and then "help" establish guidelines and rules (SFI)... might lead to some What I'm saying is, that there is nothing wrong replacing belts every so often, however is there actual data to back up that argument and more importantly testing (I'm sure that 'data' exists as well , but maybe I'm completely wrong).

For companies like Schroth, Sparco, etc.. if there weren't any limitations on belt-life, that'd sure hurt their business.

[clopez95m3]

Originally Posted by bmwpowere36m3

I have a feeling that companies that produce safety equipment (HANS) and then "help" establish guidelines and rules (SFI)... might lead to some What I'm saying is, that there is nothing wrong replacing belts every so often, however is there actual data to back up that argument and more importantly testing (I'm sure that 'data' exists as well , but maybe I'm completely wrong).

For companies like Schroth, Sparco, etc.. if there weren't any limitations on belt-life, that'd sure hurt their business.

You do realize a lot of the belt rules changed after Dale Earnhardt's death. His belt broke so things changed, a lot. Heck Bill Simpson started a new company after Earnhardt's death since it was his belts that he was wearing.

Carlos.

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted by clopez95m3

You do realize a lot of the belt rules changed after Dale Earnhardt's death. His belt broke so things changed, a lot. Heck Bill Simpson started a new company after Earnhardt's death since it was his belts that he was wearing.

Carlos.

I'm not discounting the rules, and saying their baseless... just questioning. I was not aware that Dale's belts broke. OT question, why did they break? It could be many things, not just age.

*edit* a quick wiki search, NASCAR's official stance, "The separation of the left lap belt was not a result of design or manufacturing defect, but caused by improper installation."

[JohnVanHouten]

Originally Posted by clopez95m3

A few Porsche clubs now check your belt's dates and they need to be current. I wouldn't be surprised if other clubs start doing this in the future. Sucks for racers since you can't just dump off your old belts on DE students.

I could see this getting to all clubs. Regardless if you think they are OK or not, think of the legal argument in our ridiculously litigous society in the event of a injury crash with an expired belt:

"So, the FIA says the belts are only good for 5 years, but in your safety inspection before the event you allow them since think that the FIA doesn't know what they are talking about."

Judgement for plaintiff...

[seatown88]

Originally Posted by JohnVanHouten

I could see this getting to all clubs. Regardless if you think they are OK or not, think of the legal argument in our ridiculously litigous society in the event of a injury crash with an expired belt:

"So, the FIA says the belts are only good for 5 years, but in your safety inspection before the event you allow them since think that the FIA doesn't know what they are talking about."

Judgement for plaintiff...

there was an interesting discussion on icscc forums about this. the current rules say 5 year on any belt regardless is they are SFI or FIA. But there is a proposal to change this so that SFI expires 2 years after date of manufacture. This would pretty much cover icscc in the case of a belt failure from any consequences from layers for allowing expired belts to be run. sure there was some question about how valid the SFI tests are to mandate a 2 year life span, but when it comes down to it belts are another piece of safety equipment that save lives.

[S14]

I bought the latch link harnesses from Scroth for my car i built for the nurburgring. they are cheap and do the job perfectly.