RMS Blown Motor on M3 - Tuning issues?

[GTR-M3/4]

My Race Marque Systems (RMS) Vehicle
The Vehicle:
1998 BMW M3 Sedan


June 17, 2002
- Supercharger install begins

June 20, 2002
- Car is finally able to run and the vehicle was released at 11:00 P.M at night.
- New software was apparently redone and updated for the new supercharger install.
- Jeff stated that it would take about 200- 300 miles for the car to learn the new settings.
- Osh and Jeff will leave town on Friday June 18, 2002 for business reasons in Washington. That is why they worked after business hours to get the car out of the shop. They did not want me to wait till Tuesday to wrap up the vehicle. I thought that was nice of them to do that.
- Car was driven home and upon stopping at the stop lights, car would stall.
- The vehicle stalled completely once when I was cruising and put the car into neutral going about 60 mph.


June 21, 2002
- Driving the vehicle was very difficult due to the car constantly stalling at low engine speeds.
- After parking the vehicle, the engine bay and the aftercooler is extremely hot.
- Will wait for Osh and Jeff to come back into town on Tuesday to let them know of the situation. Might be the adaptation that Jeff told me about.
- When vehicle was in motion, the car would hesitate and not increase speeds. I was making a left turn and the car suddenly and violently starts shake back and forth as if the car was about to stall. I was going less than 2 miles an hour and oncoming cars were approaching. I was almost hit due to the inability to move the car out of the way.
- Driving the vehicle from time to time, when trying to accelerate, the car would just not move.
- There is definitely a very rich or lean air to fuel condition here.
- The M3 idles lower than was brought in. The vehicle used to idle around 650-700. Now the vehicle idles at 400 if it doesn’t stall.
- Check engine lights come on. Here is what I got. These are just some of the ones I remembered to mark.


Peake Research Code Faults and descriptions (Chart 2 for 1998 BMW M3 Sedan VDS CD93)
- 0B = EVAP system pressure sensor
- CA = Oxy sensor control limit, Cyl #1-3
- CB = Oxy sensor control limit, Cyl # 4-6
- E3 = Oxy sensor adaption limit, Cyl #1-3
- E4 = Oxy sensor adaption limit, Cyl # 4-6

June 24, 2002
- Car gets a paint job at Fleet Color by Jesse.

July 05, 2002
- Car has completed the paint job at Fleet Color By Jesse.

July 09, 2002
- The M3 is finally brought back to RMS after the paint job.
- The stalling problem, the heat problem, and drivability issues were told to Jeff.

July 18, 2002
- Went to RMS today because Jeff said the car would be done today with the following work:
o Tune the car
o Install new spark plugs
o Install Turner Brackets for the rear swaybars
- 10 days to tune the vehicle. This should be an awesome car now.
- Osh told me there was air in the aftercooler and it needed bleeding. That’s why the aftercooler was so hot. Apparently the car was not bleeded correctly the first time back on June 20, 2002 when they finished patching up the car at 11:00 P.M at night.
- New spark plugs were finally put in. Apparently they over looked this portion and I feel that the plugs should have been switched to a colder heat range plug before the car should have ever been released to me. All 1996-1999 OBD II BMW M3’s come with the platinum Bosch plugs or the NGK, and it is very obvious that these should have been changed out as part of the setup with any forced induction setup.
- The time is now 5:30P.M and Osh is ready to Dyno tune my car. I found that very odd since the car was dropped off on July 09, 2002 and he had 10 days to tune the car. Jeff tells me the car runs awesome over the phone when they took it for a spin. I asked him about the stalling, and he said the car was running very lean and there was denotation. Osh took care of it as I was told.
- 6:00 P.M is the time. Osh figured out there was something wrong with the car. Apparently, there is an intake leak somewhere. That is what caused the stalling he tells me. So Jeff tells me that the car runs lean and that’s why it was stalling all the time. Osh tells me he richened the mixture and it stalls no more. Jeff tells me the car runs great over the phone a few days back. Now I come in 10 days later with a 1 hour plus drive each time one way and the car has a leak. Was the car even tuned or test driven? I don’t really know. Osh tells me to go take it home. Osh and Jeff are going out of town again. I say okay. He says it’s drivable and that he richened the Air fuel mixture so that the car will not stall at idle. He will not be able to get to the problem tonight and he said that he’ll look for the leak when they get back on Tuesday July 22, 2002. So now I’m thinking what was done to my car in those 10 days. Does it take 10 days to install the spark plugs and tune a car? I was told the car was done and tuned. They took it for a test drive and it drives great. So now I get many different versions of stories. You piece it together and nothing makes sense. They told me to drop off the car. So I’m thinking when you drop off a car and they tell you to drop it off at the shop, shouldn’t it be my turn. On top of that, my car was left outside with a new paint job. I rinse the car off and I see all these spots from bird crap. That’s very unprofessional when they know the client has a new paint job and you leave it outside for many days.

- Right when I pull out of the shop and hit Van Nuys Blvd, the car stalls magically. Now remember Osh just told me he richened the mixture. Jeff told me it runs perfect. And now the car stalls. I start it up and look at my Air Fuel Gauge. It read out no lights. That means it’s dead lean. Push on the gas and you see that the led lights up coming from the red side (Lean) to the rich side (Rich). This problem of being lean at low rpms was ALWAYS there since I first picked up the vehicle on June 20, 2002. Jeff told me himself that the car must have been detonating since it would hesitate on acceleration. God I almost died because of this with a friend of mine.
- I give Jeff and Osh the benefit of the doubt and drive it home, giving it gas to keep the rpm up at about 1500 rpm. Anything under that, I get a lean mixture with no readout from the gauge. Car idles up and down till it shuts off if it doesn’t see that rpm.
- I get home safely, and to my surprise the engine bay is cooler and the aftercooler is cooler. So the new spark plugs worked and so did the bleeding done to the aftercooler. But the car still runs improper in the sense of stalling and hesitations from time to time.


July 21, 2002

- I’m in the car with my friend. I’m driving with him to take him home from my house. I go from first to second, no problem. I shift from 2nd to neutral and the car shuts off. I say to myself okay, this happens all the time right. I start the car, and it sounds bad. I start moving because the light is green and the car shuts off after moving a few feet. I crank it, and nothing. I crank it again, nothing. My friend and I push the car over 3 lanes into Jack in the box. Car sits there and I call for a ride. Finally the car magical starts. I drive it home and tow it to RMS on Tuesday July 23, 2002.

July 24, 2002
- I receive a call from Jeff. He asked if I had time to talk and I said yes. He asks me what I did to the car. I told him what happened (That’s what you read above). Now I feel he’s blaming this whole situation on me. He was now going to check to see what is wrong with it. Now I’m going to be out of a car even longer.

July 30, 2002

- I call Jeff and he tells me it has something to do with the crank and something broken. Don’t quote me on this since I’m not sure exactly what he was talking about.

- Jeff doesn’t want to start tearing the motor apart and start charging insane amounts on labor. He gave me a few choices. I can buy a used motor, go with their stroker motor, or start looking for the problem. He told me he would talk to Osh to find the cheapest way to find the symptom since I was on a tight budget. The engine sounds horrible, and it’s not going to be a pretty job. The block is pretty much damaged from the sounds of it.

July 31, 2002

- - I call Jeff up again since I didn’t receive the phone call back yesterday and he tells me that Osh could take off the Head and the oil pan to check instead of pulling out the whole motor out of the car. He quoted me about $700 to do this job. He said he would call me back to see exactly what their approach would be.



MY THOUGHTS
1. The car was released to me not tuned perfectly on more than 1 occasion.
2. The car was running for many days on a very lean condition due to the software tuning.
3. The Bosch Platinum Plugs should not have been used in my motor. I pointed out to Jeff about 3 times before it was looked at. Jason, who I did speak with and did know about the platinum plugs heat issues, totally agreed that these better be changed out.


RMS’s Arguments
1. When I brought in the vehicle, I told Jeff about the ticking noise that many M3’s have. Even Jeff’s car has this problem and he said he just adds extra oil and the ticking goes away.
2. Because of my Intake leak, this is the reason why my car stalls.
3. Because of the Ticking noise, and the intake leak, this is why the car runs bad.

My Arguments
1. BEFORE the car was brought into RMS, my car at idle was fine. The AF gauge sweeped back and forth happily. Perfect AF ratio if I must say. Now no led’s light up with Osh’s tuning and the idle drops way down all the time.
2. They say because of the forced induction, the intake leak is now shown. The leak might have been there before and with the boost, the leak is seen. NOW, the car is at idle and there is no boost. So at idle, the car should act exactly like it was NOT supercharged. It should be at idle just like before the supercharger install and with a sweeping AF gauge from lean to rich and back.
3. The ticking noise must have been the reason why my motor broke down. I argue that. If the car was tuned properly, I don’t believe this would have happened. What happens when you drive the car for a few hundred miles on a lean condition or even a rich conditioned car? What damage can be done if there is constant detonation or if it's running lean?

My car was released on June 20, 2002 as being complete. BUT it was not complete. It was running bad. It was detonating. Who is at fault? Me or RMS?

Please give me some insight as to what you think of the situation. I am ready to email my case to my dad’s lawyer. The lawyer is ready to take on the case since there have been many other incidents for RMS tuning cars improperly and cars leaving RMS with damages. Even user PSK145 on this forum had a block going out just like me.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=27842

Thank you for your time and concerns,
Joshua

[M3TurboCa]

Any shop that is doing tuning on any forced induced car should Never allow it to leave their shop withour being properly tuned No excuses as runnine lean and getting detonation will destroy any motor.

They had you car for 10 day if you want my opinion they did nothing and maybe only worked on you car no more than a day if that much. It sounds like they were too busy to do anything on your car.

If there was a intake leak by richen up the fuel mixture I'm sorry that was a Mickey mouse fix. That means they left the original problem unfixed.

Question did RMS do the install or just tuning ?

Funny thing Brad D called me today with some problems on his car about bad idle. He called or went to RMS and they are telling him he need a vavle job as one maybe bent. Are they idiots Brad said the car was driving fine and then in traffic it started to act up funny. He was Not driving the car hard or anything. Later after he changed the plugs and let the car cool down it was perfectly fine.

I said to Brad if you think of it logically it has to be a vacuum leak or idel stablizer valve something simple and not No engine work.

RMS might have screwed up and trying to put the blame on you. Why would they say crank were you reving the crap out of it ? Is the engine making funny Knocking noises etc ?? If not I don't think you have a problem with your motor unless it was detonating under boost and you kept your foot into it still then you can damage piston and rings. The crank is usually very strong.

I thought from the board RMS knew what they were doing ??

[John (PA)]

Ouch.

You guys are so nice. Damn. I have people who want to sue me over 1000.00 software that doesn't work yet they never read the manual or call for help.. and we would solve their problem if they would even allow us 15-30 minutes on the phone.. Too busy to help us help them.. but not too busy to file lawsuit. :

I wish I had customers like you. Would be so easy to please everybody if they were as patient as you. Need some Occupational Medicine software?

Hope you get my point.

[Greg]

I'm sorry about your situation.
I have a SC on my 99 M coupe. Same motor, Vortech blower with Osh's (RMS) stage 1 program. (It's actually a stage 1+ which is extra rich for 8 psi of boost and water injection.)

I get check engine lights too, but the car runs very smoothly. It does stall when you get into neatral if you let in the clutch suddenly. It happened to me twice since I installed in June.

Any way I have a few questions for you:
1) You are located in CA, so what fuel brand and octane do you run? 91?
2) What was the range of outdoor temperature when this occured.
3) Do you have a light underdrive pulley or a flywheel. Any other modifications on the car?
4) You are running 24lb injectors? Have they checked?
5) Air flow meter been changed?

Let us know about these when you have a moment.

Thanks

G

[NickG]

Sounds like your car is in a world of hurt. Of course, the first thing is to check out everything mechanically: seals, sensors, hoses, idle speed valve, etc. All the mechanicals have to be 100% functional before any computer tuning is done.

After everything checks out, then the tuning can begin. To be honest with you, it sounds like the tuning is way off. Like you noticed before, the mixture at idle should cycle back and forth rapidly. Taking into account that it doesn't now, and the fault codes you have, tells me that the tuning is totally out to lunch.

What *I* would do is reload the STOCK program/maps and then start the tuning from scratch. Fix the idle mixture, then part throttle maps (mixture/spark), then tackle the WOT settings (power).

[JLee]

unfortunately,i'm unable to give you the technical insight the posts above are. but you asked for opinions on course of action against RMS as well

I would first report them to the Better Business Bureau at least lodge the complaint, and then post on as many bmw boards as you can and find all those with similar experiences. then if you have enough people get a class action lawsuit together

not know the financial strength (or insurance) of the company, I don't know what kind of settlement you could actually walk away with, but my $0.02 is sue those bastards.

over the years numerous posts have popped up like this (which really begs the question why do people keep buying from them ?) and just based on the complaints posted I would say good riddance. you don't read about dinan s/c's or Ert or other manufacturers with those poor of a track record...

jmho

jeff

[RichP]

like nick said, it sounds like the programming is very messed up, if for nothing more than the SC doesnt make any boost till almost 2.5-3K, so your idle and such should be completely unaffected.

best of luck, and I hope that this doesnt turn into a money pit (dont let it, they screwed up, not you)

[Josh]

I am going to be blunt and honest here because each time I hear about atrocities with tuners such as these, it angers me more and more. I am very sorry to hear about your problems. It is a shame that tuners like RMS are still in business. I think it is pretty clear at this point, given the many documented cases we all have seen, that RMS is simply incapable of tuning software for their applications. As we know, their hardware for the supercharger kits is good because it is a copy of the superior Dinan system, and their aftercooler kit is just a modified Vortec intercooler for a Mustang. Whether it be shear tuning incompetence or RMS’s horrific customer service, I hope that people begin to realize that an RMS tuned kit is just not an acceptable route to go with for someone who is looking for an option for our cars. Some of you RMS kit owners have cars that run fine, or at least you think you do. I would at this point offer to those of you that it is a simply just a matter of lucking out than it is of it being a product of an experienced tuner.
GTR-M3/4, the only option I see for you which will leave you satisfied is to request RMS remove their defective kit, fix the motor they damaged (one of many) and refund your money. I suggest having your lawyer make the calls. You seem to be documenting everything pretty well. Try to keep a tab of all the expenses you have incurred thus far so if and when it becomes necessary to take legal action against this company you can accurately make a claim to be compensated. I am sure there are quite a few other customers that may be interested in a Class Action Lawsuit should you decide to go that route.
If you choose another route, and you really want to keep that kit, I would recommend contacting a respectable tuner like Active Autowerke or a tuner like Jim Conforti who are more experienced with tuning cars to run properly.
I wish you the best of luck with your situation. I hope your story will educate others on who they should be taking their cars to.

[///MCubed]

Here is my RMS tuned SC'ed M3 -vs.- my AA tuned SC'ed M3. I will see if I can dig up the afr data for the RMS software.

[Stockman]

You have a very good log of events down...

Take them to court.. I cant say for your state but in texas if you win and they wont pay you just file a writ of execution and (no they dont kill the guy) the sheriff will go to the place and seize property (Like all their tools except 1, supercharger kits, their cars if they dont have the business setup right) to sell at auction to pay you the amount owed.. usually they come up with money fast when that happens

[paul e]

All 1996-1999 OBD II BMW M3’s come with the platinum Bosch plugs or the NGK, and it is very obvious that these should have been changed out as part of the setup with any forced induction setup

I feel really bad that situations like this continue to exist....It makes you wonder, cause from time to time, RMS has had a decent reputation in the market...clearly, they dont bollux up all their jobs....But this is just a horrible case...So many things done wrong. The only thing I wanted to set you straight on is your issue with the plugs....There's no doubt that the NGK plugs they installed are the better plug for your application..Theyre the same plug I chose for mine, too, and are 2 heat ranges colder than the stock OBDII plugs. But....Dinan in his kits doesnt change the plugs either...AS a matter of fact my car when it was first done kept the original plugs, and the car ran excellently. Plug type absolutely was NOT the cause of ANY of your problems. The car will run better and cooler with your new plugs, but the stock plugs would NOT have cause the poor running your experienced, unless they were really no good, but not because of type.

Now that thats cleared up, just let me say that, as others have already said, to take the car in for 10 days and still not have it right, despite saying that it is, is just unconscionable...Could they be so honestly mistaken that they say things are running perfectly, yet when you pick it up, it behaves exactly as it did before you brought it back to them 10 days earlier? I like to try and give them the benefit of the doubt, because our market is so damn small, we need every good and talented tuner involved that we can get. But this is really hard to excuse. Im beginning to think that anybody who goes teh sC route with anybody but Dinan is making a big mistake. Hard to believe that only ONE guy in the whole country can get it right, but that appears to be the case for our OBDII SC cars these days.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving this quickly, and, please let us know the next steps.

[Brad D.]

I too, am in the same boat as you. MechTech Motorsports is even WORSE than RMS. They have had my car no less than 10 different times, and the car is running lean as hell. I can understand your concern.

Don't feel like you are the only one who has problems. I have MAJOR problems....on top of the fact that at random now (starting yesterday) the car decides it wants to idle like shit for a day, then return to normal.

Hell you think that's bad? I have some stories about MechTech that you wouldn't f'ing believe even if I told you...I mean stuff that would put that place out of business today if I let the Better Business Bureau and the Bureau of Automotive Repairs know about it.

CALL THE BUREAU..they have a hard on for this kind of stuff.

[GTR-M3/4]

High Greg,

I want to thank you all for responding. For any of you who have just read this post, please continue to leave your comments and experiences. I need all of you who have had any problems with RMS to keep in touch.

NOW to answer your questions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg
[B]I'm sorry about your situation.
I have a SC on my 99 M coupe. Same motor, Vortech blower with Osh's (RMS) stage 1 program. (It's actually a stage 1+ which is extra rich for 8 psi of boost and water injection.)

I get check engine lights too, but the car runs very smoothly. It does stall when you get into neatral if you let in the clutch suddenly. It happened to me twice since I installed in June.

Any way I have a few questions for you:
1) You are located in CA, so what fuel brand and octane do you run? 91?

Answer: I run only Chevron 91 Octane. I'm located in Cali and so is RMS. So i'm 110% sure that the car should be tuned for 91 octane as this is the standard fuel octane.

2) What was the range of outdoor temperature when this occured.

Answer: It was about 8:00p.m at night. The temperature was probably around 70-75 degrees F. Not scorching hot, and not freezing cold. Fall weather temps at night.


3) Do you have a light underdrive pulley or a flywheel. Any other modifications on the car?

Answer: I have the AA LTW Flywheel gen III. The car never stalled before the charger and I don't see why it would stall after the supercharger.

4) You are running 24lb injectors? Have they checked?

Answer: The car was the RMS Stage II kit which included larger injectors. They have not been very technical about the specs of the components. RMS's website states a 32lb injector for the stage 1

5) Air flow meter been changed?

Answer: The air flow meter is the exact one that I have on my car from what I remember. The stage III RMS kit includes the larger air flow meter (the HFM).

Let us know about these when you have a moment.

Thanks

G

[stimpee]

I'm going to just add 2cents here for a second:

All of you people that are having such major troubles with these "tuners" certainly have a right to be pissed. I don't know how much anyone can be pissed that a tuner is having a problem getting a particular car to run right, however once the car experiences collateral damage, or the tuner is not being straight-up and helping to solve the problem, that is where the issue is...

It seems to me like many of these guys are just in way over their heads trying to reprogram the OEM DME. I guess Dinan and AA have mostly figured it out, to at least get consistent results. However there are so many applications out there (other cars) where "tuning aids" are used so that you don't even really TOUCH the closed loop, non-boost operation of the car. If it ain't broke, as they say...

Why is everyone so down on that way of doing things (RRFPR, piggybacks, etc) where you can completely avoid modifying the closed loop settings of the car, therefore significantly limiting the risks of these problems happening?

I don't understand why everyone considers the only "right" way to be re-writing the software. I will not argue that it is in most cases the BEST way, assuming the capability and experience are applied correctly (which they obviously often are not).

As I have said before, if the AFR is at the value you want, in the rpm and throttle range that you want, the car is making good power, and you are not detonating, and the settings STAY THAT WAY over time and various conditions (within reasonable bounds of course), then the car is TUNED PROPERLY. It doesn't ultimately matter whether that is done thru the stock programming, piggybacks, RRFPR's and other aids, or a standalone...

IM somewhat self-serving HO.......

Steve

[SilverStreak]

GTR-M3/4, so sorry to hear about your problems. I certainly do feel fortunate when I hear stories like this, cuz I have had no issues with my RMS kit whatsoever, in fact I've had fantastic results and received excellent customer service, as have the other folks I've referred to them.

What is RMS saying now/today? Do they know you are considering legal action?

Jeff & Osh have always proven to be pretty stand up guys in my experience with them- meaning, if you are unhappy, I bet they would do what it takes to make things right by you.

I would call them, keep a cool head, tell them what you think and inform them of what you want, and see how they respond.

As a business owner myself, I know if given the chance to correct a situation where a customer feels slighted, I do whatever it takes to make things right.

[paul e]

It seems to me like many of these guys are just in way over their heads trying to reprogram the OEM DME. I guess Dinan and AA have mostly figured it out

I agree 1000% with Stimpee. What kept running through my mind as I read of these atrocities is that after all these attempts to fix, if the tuner Could fix it, Wouldnt he have? I choose to believe that Osh is not a bad guy, and that he hasnt had your car, keeping you out of commission, for all these days, just cause hes a sadist....Nor, can he admit, for business and probably legal reasons, that he's incapable of getting it right. IN the old days, '...the car's lean, mr Customer? No problem..bring it in at lunch time and i'll have you out before you finish your meatball sandwich'! But now, whoa be he who runs amok of the ODBII computer

Funny that, with a few successes, somehow, RMS name comes up over and over again in these contexts...YOu virtually NEVER hear of these types of problems with AA, Dinan, or anything Jim C has programmed...Are these the only guys in the whole damn country capable of tuning a BMW OBDII ECU?

What I dont understand is that there's no way trial and error will get it right...Yet, we do know of OBDII drivers who have had RMS do their tuning work, and they are happy as bovines in broccoli. Moreover, when I was having my car's boost upped, I was speaking with Osh, and he was very quick to offer me to mail him my ECU for some 'fine tuning'...Is it possible that he's so arrogant that he would solicit work that he's ill equipped to hancdle? I find that hard to believe also...A guy who gets so lost tuning OBDII as he has on the subject car doesnt go looking for trouble, seems to me, no matter HOW arrogant he is.

So, whats the real story...Im still not sure. However Stimpees point about allowing the stock electronics handle the closed loop operations, and leaving your boosted activities to rrfpr, like ERT did with their OBDII systems , is a good one, unless youre going to one of the three Ive mentioned who have proven over and over again theyre up to the task. I think whats keeping folks from this approach is 1) it doesnt sound as sexy, and 2) I think the result may be a little less power than a properly retuned ECU. But...Cost is lower, and , it will WORK! Drive as well as stock, and kick you in the hind parts when you go open loop.

Alot of stuff to consider here...And despite my sympathy for the subject car, Im not 100% convinced whats going on...If Osh is really incapable of retuning an OBDII bmw ECU, why does he solicit that kind of business (not just accept it, but seek it out)? Moreover, guys last Alain at Last Minute Racing in Ct run an RMS M Cpe professionally on a race circuit, and does pretty well, with RMS software. Then, we all know of the '99 article in BMW Power which pits an AA OBDII M3 against an RMS OBDII M3. There's Osh, on the scene, with a laptop, doing last minute tuning tweaks on that same DME during the event.....Brings up 2 points: If he knew his stuff, wouldnt he have had it tuned in BEFORE this well publicized event, and second, if he DIDNT know his stuff, would he be so brazen, in front of the media, to attack the tuning with the laptop of something he knew not how to program?

See what I mean? something doesnt smell kosher. I just dont know what it is.

[stimpee]

Originally posted by paul e



Alot of stuff to consider here...And despite my sympathy for the subject car, Im not 100% convinced whats going on...If Osh is really incapable of retuning an OBDII bmw ECU, why does he solicit that kind of business (not just accept it, but seek it out)? Moreover, guys last Alain at Last Minute Racing in Ct run an RMS M Cpe professionally on a race circuit, and does pretty well, with RMS software. Then, we all know of the '99 article in BMW Power which pits an AA OBDII M3 against an RMS OBDII M3. There's Osh, on the scene, with a laptop, doing last minute tuning tweaks on that same DME during the event.....Brings up 2 points: If he knew his stuff, wouldnt he have had it tuned in BEFORE this well publicized event, and second, if he DIDNT know his stuff, would he be so brazen, in front of the media, to attack the tuning with the laptop of something he knew not how to program?

See what I mean? something doesnt smell kosher. I just dont know what it is.

Something to chew on, when thinking about why someone would try to do something that the obviously don't know how to do:

There are 4 stages of awareness when it comes down to it, you can read into the terms as to what they mean, cause I don't feel like describing each item:

1) Unconscious Incompetence
2) Conscious Incompetence
3) Conscious Competence
4) Unconscious Competence

I saw these 4 stages in reference to driving abilities once, to explain why 99.9% of the people on the planet think they are great drivers. They are all/most at Stage 1. I consider myself at stage 2, since I know I suck. Race car driver's at the highest levels of competition are at stage 4. When I used to roadrace motorcycles, I would have considered myself at Stage 3. I could ride very well, and very quickly with the best guys on the track, but it took an INCREDIBLE amount of mental effort to do so, and I could only maintain it for a short time.

I think these stages carry thru to many things in life. For me, I also consider myself at Stage 2 when it comes to tuning. I don't have much experience, so I certainly can't yet consider myself competent, however I have done a ton of research, and am beginning to realize just how little I know, and how much others DO know. Therefore I am "conscious" of my incompetence.

See where I am going with this? I am not implying in any way that RMS or anyone else doesn't know what they are doing. Since I am at stage 1 of my awareness of what these guys (and other tuners) are actually capable of!!!

Steve

[JLee]

Originally posted by SilverStreak
I would call them, keep a cool head, tell them what you think and inform them of what you want, and see how they respond.

i dunno dave, based on his timeline of events, it seems like more than ample opportunity was given. i mean, hell i woulda blown a gasket after 2 days, he gave the guys 10, thats in addition to all the other visits.

If you value the time spent at your average earnings per hour during work, I'd bet that exceeds the upfront savings people thought they were getting over a Dinan kit.

jeff

[JLee]

Originally posted by paul e


...Is it possible that he's so arrogant that he would solicit work that he's ill equipped to hancdle? I find that hard to believe also...A guy who gets so lost tuning OBDII as he has on the subject car doesnt go looking for trouble, seems to me, no matter HOW arrogant he is.

...If Osh is really incapable of retuning an OBDII bmw ECU, why does he solicit that kind of business (not just accept it, but seek it out)?

See what I mean? something doesnt smell kosher. I just dont know what it is.

hell, if i could charge $800 to "tune" your car and get away with it i would too ! this is all assuming i had no ethics or morals, but hey, i do have a laptop !


jeff

[paul e]

hell, if i could charge $800 to "tune" your car and get away with it i would too ! this is all assuming i had no ethics or morals, but hey, i do have a laptop

Cmon Jeff...lets get real. How long do you think any jerk with a laptop would last in this market if he didnt have any successes? Take a look around...There are loads of em...You just dont hear about 'em much, cause they dont get far...By the time youve gotten your name out there with as much relative prominence as RMS, youve got to deliver more than promises and multi thousand dollar bills! After all, Jeff, aside from Jim C, AA, Dinan, RMS, and ERT, there arent too many others that would roll right off your tongue. You might debate whether the aforementioned are first class tuners of FI M3s, but at the very least, they all have had some successes, and cant be classified as just 'someone with a laptop' trying to do in their fellow bimmer owners!

[paul e]

One more question GTR/Joshua:

You described your car as:

My Race Marque Systems (RMS) Vehicle
The Vehicle:
1998 BMW M3 Sedan
Dinan Software stage II

Can you tell us more about the last line, ie, the Dinan Software stage II? Was this their SC software, whcih they put on cars they equip with a Vortech blower and their exhaust? IF so, thats the software I have, and as you know if youve hung around here much, Im running 11 psi boost, without issue. I wonder if this whole thing couldnt have been avoided if you had kept that software and just used the rMS hardware you were interested in...I wonder if its too late to persue that approach? Hey..at least Ive had zero CE lights, and no audible detonation, and no leanness issues. Is this an option for you?

[JLee]

Originally posted by paul e

just 'someone with a laptop' trying to do in their fellow bimmer owners!

i hear you paul, and i read your other post, obviously mine was an exaggeration and RMS does obviously have some success stories to brag about and in reality the negative always outspeaks the positive, BUT, i do think from all the various posts archived in this and other forums there are "ability" questions, and most definitely "character" issues.

i just feel bad for the people that have had the horror stories, fortunately, from their experiences I will be choosing some other route..

What still absolutely stumps me is with all the negative feedback over the years, people still go with it, its like why would I hand over $6K to someone with that kinda track record ? :

i mean, personally as a consumer I would think ok, maybe for $3K i get what i paid for and take the risk of a 50% chance this guy gettin it right...that risk offsets the additional $5K i woulda spent for a dinan kit. But at $6K, $2K away from the comparable kits...i dunno man...

sorry for the ranting.

jeff


jeff

[JLee]

paul on hopefully a more positive note, how do you like your dinan s/c cause i think i'm gonna bite the bullet and do that relatively soon.

this thread was very timely for me

jeff

[GTR-M3/4]

Hi Dave,

A lot of you have asked why I went to RMS to do my car. I'll let you guys know now.

1. I read the horror story about PSK145's car. That scared me a lot. But Jeff resolved that issue.
2. I spoke with Jeff at RMS and he was very "true" about all of the questions I asked him. Everything we talked about was professional and honest. No BS here. I felt that Osh did a good job finding Jeff.
3. Dave, you back up RMS all the time. That gave me the confidence to go and have my car done there. No more horror stories after Jeff was here. So why worry. Dave and Jeff both make RMS a good choice for me to have my car FI. I'm in Cali, they are in Cali, perfect.

So if you guys all sum it up, there were mistakes done in the past. But RMS hired Jeff, and after PSK145's situation there have been really no complaints. Dave backs them up like they are the best and I said okay, let's do it.

So what's the situation you guys ask me. As for me keeping a cool head Dave. I have always been very professional in that manner. Jeff would tell you that. I give them my car and I never complained once. I wait hours there when it's time to pick up my car which should be ready when i get there. I gave them my car 10 days to do something that should take no more then a day or two of tunning. I've heard it takes 3 full days of good tuning to have it just right. I get there on the 10th day and I see my car finally being worked on. If it were already tuned and they already took it for a test dirve, why would they have to retune it and NOW 10 days later notice the intake leak. Why now, and not on the release date way back in June 20, 2002. Nothing makes sense to me when I take the time to think of it. The car was released to me 3 times. The first time the car should have been completed. The second time after telling them all of the poor tuning and it running lean and maybe detonating, the car should have been done. And finally the third time my motor quits on me. I don't even make boost till like 4k. And at 4k it's like 1lb of boost. Low end, my car is way slower than before. Stock car's could kill me off the line. If that's on a good day. When it's bad, my car stalls or starts shaking back and forth from detonation.

As you can see, i'm pretty upset with this whole situation. I don't blame Jeff, so I don't know what to say. It never ran right. So first i'm going to give Jeff and Osh the chance to see what they have to offer me. I am not going to pay over $6000 for a used motor, and I'm not going to get their $8000 to $13000 plus stroker motor which puts out 500 plus hp to the crank. My car ran good with the Dinan software. Never had the hot engine bay. I changed the motor oil ever 5000k with nothing but the best. Either mobil 1 or Castrol. I've already incurred many damages I'm in great pains right now, mentally and financially. I've lost many job interviews due to the lack of a car. I'll wait for Jeff to get back to me. As for you guys, keep the comments coming.

Josh

Originally posted by SilverStreak
GTR-M3/4, so sorry to hear about your problems. I certainly do feel fortunate when I hear stories like this, cuz I have had no issues with my RMS kit whatsoever, in fact I've had fantastic results and received excellent customer service, as have the other folks I've referred to them.

What is RMS saying now/today? Do they know you are considering legal action?

Jeff & Osh have always proven to be pretty stand up guys in my experience with them- meaning, if you are unhappy, I bet they would do what it takes to make things right by you.

I would call them, keep a cool head, tell them what you think and inform them of what you want, and see how they respond.

As a business owner myself, I know if given the chance to correct a situation where a customer feels slighted, I do whatever it takes to make things right.

[GTR-M3/4]

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to confuse you guys. My car had the Dinan Stage II software before the car was done at RMS. All I did was took the car to RMS and have the whole Stage II setup done by them. The car no longer has the Dinan software in it I think. Osh should have wiped that out to put his software over it. BUT, when I did have the Dinan software, man did the AF gauge sweep back and forth. Now, nothing. So i'll correct that.

Thanks,
Josh

Originally posted by paul e
One more question GTR/Joshua:

You described your car as:

My Race Marque Systems (RMS) Vehicle
The Vehicle:
1998 BMW M3 Sedan
Dinan Software stage II

Can you tell us more about the last line, ie, the Dinan Software stage II? Was this their SC software, whcih they put on cars they equip with a Vortech blower and their exhaust? IF so, thats the software I have, and as you know if youve hung around here much, Im running 11 psi boost, without issue. I wonder if this whole thing couldnt have been avoided if you had kept that software and just used the rMS hardware you were interested in...I wonder if its too late to persue that approach? Hey..at least Ive had zero CE lights, and no audible detonation, and no leanness issues. Is this an option for you?