Watch the build-up of a Vorshlag E36 LS1

[Fair]

Originally Posted by Seans M3

Looking great

Gant wait to see some vids

Ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRCZeNys8ug

That's video of the Alpha car. Please ignore the herky-jerky video (not enough caffeine or digital overzooming?) and squeaking alternator bushing.





More pictures:
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gall...5831#155043926

Please note: there are many changes to the Beta learned from the Alpha (such as: lateral shift of .75" makes everything fit better; Beta header collectors sit much higher and negate the need to move brakelines/fuel lines on the floorpan; motor is not solid mounted in Beta - altho this was a non-issue in the Alpha; etc.). Remember - the Alpha is a dedicated race car, but still will be just barely "street legal". No peanut gallery Alpha comments, please. Car weighed 2709 pounds, soaking wet, and has a lot left to go (heavy battery, stock seat, and some other weighty things were in there for that weighing - which I saw personally and will vouch for). Big props to Brian Matteucci for finishing the Alpha! It sounds so good and goes like stink. He has run it at several autocross events now (+ street testing) and will be competing at the Houston SCCA SW Divisional event in 2 weeks.

Beta Update for June 12, 2007: Spent an hour looking at the completed fab work on the Beta headers. Pictures do not do them justice - they are works of ART. There is ample clearance everywhere and even starter removal looks easy (a concern with some V8 swaps). We now await a new tubing bender (due next week) to tackle a revised motor mount bracket and trans crossmember, using tubing instead of the patchwork of tubes/plate/welding origami I made the prototype set from. Mandrel bent structural tubing (welded to Laser cut mounting plates) will make for lighter/stronger/better looking production parts and give more clearance for like the two 3" main exhaust pipes + cats.

More soon!

[garretvs]

Looks really good Vorshlag! I (Steve) will be in Dallas area 06-18 thru 06-22, and would like to drop by and say Hi ---

Garret will be posting pics of the modified '99 Corvetter headers that we think will fit. Clears RH side by 2.0", LH HydroBoost system by @1.0". We will have to do some creative metalwork to finish them off.

Garret & Steve E30-LS1 aka 357is

[joon]

Originally Posted by garretvs

Looks really good Vorshlag! I (Steve) will be in Dallas area 06-18 thru 06-22, and would like to drop by and say Hi ---

Garret will be posting pics of the modified '99 Corvetter headers that we think will fit. Clears RH side by 2.0", LH HydroBoost system by @1.0". We will have to do some creative metalwork to finish them off.

Garret & Steve E30-LS1 aka 357is

do you have any pics of these headers?

glimmer of hope for us poor RHD fellas haha

[PJ325i]

Holy . . . .Look at that thing pull

[studbike]

looks amazing what ya'll are doing.

Just wondering: which would be faster in an e36, an ls1 or the new v8 that the new m3 will have? the bmw engine has slightly more power, but the ls1 has lots more torque (from my understanding)

[Fair]

Originally Posted by studbike

looks amazing what ya'll are doing.

Just wondering: which would be faster in an e36, an ls1 or the new v8 that the new m3 will have? the bmw engine has slightly more power, but the ls1 has lots more torque (from my understanding)

Hahaha... no contest. LS1 (LS2/6/7) FTW!


That size comparison is a DOHC V8 next to a pushrod V8, both of comparible displacement
(motor on right is actually 5.0L displacement and much more powerful). Which on looks lighter and easier to package??

The "LS1" had 5.7L displacement 350 hp/300whp but it was very mild. These can be had used for ~$2000-2500 in good condition, complete. Wanna guess the price of the new M3 motor? Probably $20K. It is also much larger externally, more complicated/fragile, and no lighter (published weights are within a few pounds of the LS1).

Now look at the LS2: 6.0L, 400 hp, still very low stressed and affordable. Complete crate m0tors are >$6K, with a warranty! LS7 gets closer to $12K complete, but these have 7.0L and 505 hp.

And any of those can make hundreds more hp with a few tweaks. An LS1 or LS2 typically makes 500hp with little more than head work and a cam. These are cheap mods compared to anything you could do to any modern BMW motor...

We're trying to show that an LS1 swap is cheaper than a turbo kit on an E36. I mean for everything. Its damn close on paper... think about that. You could build a ragged edge FI BMW motor that might make 300 whp or you could put in a stock LS1 with ~350 whp (the headers in our kit will likely pick up a lot over stock manifolds). And get 30 mpg. And have the potential for SO much more...

[PrestoMB]

looks amazing what ya'll are doing.

Just wondering: which would be faster in an e36, an ls1 or the new v8 that the new m3 will have? the bmw engine has slightly more power, but the ls1 has lots more torque (from my understanding)

Well Frankly speaking our asking the wrong question. First off the new M3 V8 engine alone is probably going to be 10,000 + dollars, and it makes around 420 hp. With 4k Dollars you can have the LS1 motor and T-56 tranny. And with another 2-4k you could have a motor putting out 420whp. So you would still have 2-4k to play with.

[crisco3]

Hey Fair.

I emailed you about the details of your future LS1 conversion kit a few days ago. It sounds like the ultimate set up man. Love it.

My girlfriend lives in San Antonio for this summer and I have an uncle that lives in Dallas. I am currently in the process of buying an 1997 E36 M3. Let's say I sold the stock motor and bought the LS1 with the transmission and ECU...... Would I also need to buy a new differential or would it use the stock M3 one?

Could I drop the car off at your shop and have the motor, tranny, and ECU shipped to you to let you perform the conversion. I realize that you are pretty busy right now, but just let me know. How much would I be looking at for labor and parts? Thanks.

I am going to be watching the progress of this kit like a kid waiting for Christmas.......

[TommyV]

Originally Posted by TommyV

Terry, how difficult will it be to adapt your kit to an e34?
Tommy

Anyone?

[M3 Muscle]

How is the LS1 going to affect handling/balance using standard springs or regular lowering springs? Is this going to be necessary to switch to coilovers to restore the handling to what it was before the swap? I know the weights are close, but they are going have a different center of gravity.

[nonphixion]

This kit is going to be so hot! This is the next big thing in LS1 swaps for sure. I love the fact you can have big power and be nice and reliable. Big power FI would make me anxious/nervous to DD with. This kid is so perfect, motor is the same weight and makes way more power, and HUGE power potential. Sign me up.

[Fair]

Originally Posted by M3 Muscle

How is the LS1 going to affect handling/balance using standard springs or regular lowering springs? Is this going to be necessary to switch to coilovers to restore the handling to what it was before the swap? I know the weights are close, but they are going have a different center of gravity.

Converting an M/S50/52 (inline 6) to an LS1/T56 will improve the weight distribution (moving it centrally-to-rearward, always a good thing) and lower the center of mass (also good). Weight increases from the swap will virtually be nill.

That is not a typo. The LS1 is the same weight as the iron inline 6 but the weight is lower and much farther back (it is a 13" shorter engine and mounted as far back in the chassis as possible w/o hacking into the firewall). The T56 is a tick heavier than the Getrag but the exhaust from the LS1 will be substantially lighter, as well as some other bits, so the weight changes from the full swap should be nearly zero.

Don't worry about the handling - we'll keep the car as perfect as before, or better. We are a suspension company first and foremost, after all. We wouldn't have anything to do with sticking a big lump of iron in a Bimmer and making it handle worse. No worries! We'll even have a custom lower "X" brace available for this swap soon.

Originally Posted by crisco3

...I am currently in the process of buying an 1997 E36 M3. Let's say I sold the stock motor and bought the LS1 with the transmission and ECU......

Could I drop the car off at your shop and have the motor, tranny, and ECU shipped to you to let you perform the conversion. I realize that you are pretty busy right now, but just let me know. How much would I be looking at for labor and parts? Thanks.

We get these questions quite regularly - we're not yet set-up to do conversions. Let us get the Beta car polished, get the kit in production, then we will announce on our website and here about turn-key conversions. It is in our plans, but right now the R&D on this particular customer car, production preparations, and our regular day-to-day suspension R&D/production/orders is keeping us at 90-100 hour work weeks. If we could live without any sleep...

Originally Posted by crisco3

Would I also need to buy a new differential or would it use the stock M3 one?

The Alpha car has tested well with a stock E36 M3 diff (the 325/M3's 188mm ring gear housing, 3.91 ratio) and we will bring the Beta online with the same OEM M3 limited slip diff housing as well - at least initially. Our fabricator is on-board for a swap to the larger 210mm BMW 5/7/E46M3 limited slip housing -or- more likely the Ford Cobra 8.8" aluminum IRS carrier (which has stronger gear/parts, a lighter Aluminum housing, better gear ratio choices, better differential choices, and costs thousands less to build or buy with all new parts).

Either of these custom diff swaps will require rear subframe changes (either modified stock or a completely custom tubular steel fabrication), hybrid halfshafts, and a different driveshaft. We think these stronger diffs might be necessary with very powerful conversions (500-700+ hp), but not the normal 350-450 hp variety. If either the Alpha (~350 hp, but moving to 315mm R compound tires now) or Beta LS1 cars break the 188mm diff we will let you know here.

[Black96m3]

wow get this kit in production already

[bennyfizzle]

seriously, this sounds like a good winter project

[wholelottahustl]

Hi,

I'm a long time lurker and first time poster. I've been following this thread and the previous one and think this swap is awesome. A few quick questions ( I apologize if it has already been covered),

1) can this swap be performed in any year e36? (1994-1999) I'm not sure of the electrical differences between the various years
2) can this swap be performed in a sedan e36 (for the ultimate sleeper)?

I was thinking about picking up a e36 M3/4 for a conversion down the road.

Chris

[Fair]

Originally Posted by joon

Brian/Terry, I remember earlier on in this buildup you mentioned that you guys might be designing something to replace the clumsy lower steering assembly/U-joint/rag joint.. any update on that? I'd be the first to sign up if you come up with something...

We are having the first small production run of these custom steering shaft assemblies built now. These will include 2-piece collapsible shaft with chrome-moly low profile steel needle bearing steering u-joints with the correct BMW splines. We will offer these assemblies for sale for other E36 racers and are considering doing an E30 shaft (for engine swappers as well as to make the E36 steering rack swap easier for you guys! that E30 rack sucks).

Details after these are delivered.

[VR92]

Very cool. Looking forward to overall pricing info.

Excellent job!

[badbadm]

Originally Posted by VR92

Very cool. Looking forward to overall pricing info.

Excellent job!

Yeah, and perhaps kit pre-ordering info.

[bimmerd00d]

I think i'm goign to jump on the e34 bandwagon too. I've already got the car, would you guys be interested in doing an alpha E34 car?

[Fair]

Originally Posted by bimmerd00d

I think i'm goign to jump on the e34 bandwagon too. I've already got the car, would you guys be interested in doing an alpha E34 car?

E34 is getting too old... the E39 is a much more modern choice for a big cruiser BMW with an LS1 swap. I've owned a 540i-6spd and it was very nice, but the engine/trans maintenance were becoming "not fun" and rebuilds for those can get frighteningly expensive.

You can get '97-up 528i 5-spd cars for good prices but they still look good with the right tweaks (later head/tail lights, M5 bumper covers, wheels). The V8 E39 cars had a clunkier front K-member/suspension, so the 6-cylinder car is the way to go.

My LS1 swap wish list includes: E36, E46, Z3/M Coupe/Roadster, E39, E31 (8 series!) and E38 (7 series). Mmm....

[bimmerd00d]

Originally Posted by Fair

E34 is getting too old... the E39 is a much more modern choice for a big cruiser BMW with an LS1 swap. I've owned a 540i-6spd and it was very nice, but the engine/trans maintenance were becoming "not fun" and rebuilds for those can get frighteningly expensive.

You can get '97-up 528i 5-spd cars for good prices but they still look good with the right tweaks (later head/tail lights, M5 bumper covers, wheels). The V8 E39 cars had a clunkier front K-member/suspension, so the 6-cylinder car is the way to go.

My LS1 swap wish list includes: E36, E46, Z3/M Coupe/Roadster, E39, E31 (8 series!) and E38 (7 series). Mmm....

Well, if the engine goes up in smoke in my 540, you will definitely have a candidate then. Same goes for our 2000 528iA, but it has 210k on it now, so if BMW reliability has its course there, i won't see anything in that car til 300k

[JoeZ]

Originally Posted by Fair

My LS1 swap wish list includes: E36, E46, Z3/M Coupe/Roadster, E39, E31 (8 series!) and E38 (7 series). Mmm....

Even with our inferior rear suspension

[Faerus]

Originally Posted by Fair

E34 is getting too old... the E39 is a much more modern choice for a big cruiser BMW with an LS1 swap. I've owned a 540i-6spd and it was very nice, but the engine/trans maintenance were becoming "not fun" and rebuilds for those can get frighteningly expensive.

You can get '97-up 528i 5-spd cars for good prices but they still look good with the right tweaks (later head/tail lights, M5 bumper covers, wheels). The V8 E39 cars had a clunkier front K-member/suspension, so the 6-cylinder car is the way to go.

My LS1 swap wish list includes: E36, E46, Z3/M Coupe/Roadster, E39, E31 (8 series!) and E38 (7 series). Mmm....

Well the E36 is being completed, so there is one check off, E46 I'm sure you can find a candidate, I'd give mine up if I had one. Someone already did the Z3/M heh and the 8 and 7 series would be badass.

[Derek 350i]

For the E46, look for a 2000 323ic auto. There are a bunch out there with the trans blown up and for the $5500 BMW charges to replace it, one could be well on their way to a LS1/T56 swap.

[bluejeansonfire]

If a volunteer is needed for the e46 swap development, I lost oil pressure Friday at an autocross event. Mine's a somewhat modified 330ci. It sits on PSS9 coilovers and ground control race plates, spc rear camber arms, headers, ssk, uuc flywheel, m3 front bumper and hood, 3.38 rear diff. Now with the swap, I'd be able to part out much of the remainder of my motor, especially the aftermarket bits.