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Thread: New SHINY!

  1. #1
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    New SHINY!



    Pistons (CP 8:1), Rods (Rebushed, Resized, and Shot Peened), Rod and Main bearings, Rings, Flywheel (lightened to 13lbs), Head (decked .012", 3 angle valve job, dual springs using stock springs as outer springs), Freeze plugs, Custom Reground Cam (Steve's, white box)


    CP Pistons (8:1) Forged.


    Flywheel lightened to 13lbs and surfaced


    Block taped for soda blasting, some ridges sanded down, cartouche cut into shiny block bump top left.


    2.0L block I'm not using but got tanked and Magnafluxed for cracks. Interestingly it has this large hex bung top center that the 1.8L block does not have. Dunno why.
    Last edited by milotrain; 07-09-2010 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...
    Last edited by 340i; 07-09-2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  3. #3
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    About time you posted those, looks nice!

    BTW, what did they "resize" on the rods? Also, if you dont mind me asking, how much were the pistons and where (you can PM me this info if you like).

    E21 LEGION


    Crypto success: http://brief.watchersfrontline.com/SHV

  4. #4
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    It is always fascinating to me to see up close and personal the inner workings, these carved, forged metallic forms, that will soon be combined in such a way that they will move in tandem upwards of an astonishing 5-6000 times per minute, perhaps, and propel two tons of steel, cloth, plastic and rubber--- and human flesh--- through space at 100 miles an hour. It is just genius. Awesome.

    Thanks for showing those pics. I love it. Good luck with the project, we await the finished project.

    Addendum: 6000 rpms. Lordy. That is 100 times a second. I know that is nothing compared to chip speeds, I suppose but .... we are talking cams, cranks, pistons, etc. Those pistons above moving that fast. It is mind-boggling to me. I stand in awe. I want to go for a drive!
    Last edited by tomscat1; 07-09-2010 at 06:21 PM.
    Tom
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    Visit my blog: Baurspotting
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 340i View Post
    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...
    Well seems like nearly everyone does this, and it's not like it's an aluminum flywheel, which people also use.

    Shouldn't matter anyway, my bellhousing's going to be steel.

    Resizing means they take material off the rod cap and re-machine the large end of the rod by honing it to bring it into perfectly round and correct clearance for the rod bearings.

    This is my engine rebuilding web page, it explains exactly why, where, and how much the pistons were. They were $764.90 after all was said and done. I did not know about IE's custom forged pistons for $600 at the time, however I did know about Wiseco, JE, Venolia, Ross, and IPP's pistons.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 340i View Post
    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...
    Lightening flywheels is a safe practice. Lightening them incorrectly is not, and unfortunaly this one lacks one of the most fundamental safety precautions, which is a huge radius in the corners. Not to say that it will explode, that's pretty unlikely, but it could be better.

    Sexy pistons, BTW.
    Last edited by Layne; 07-09-2010 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
    Well seems like nearly everyone does this, and it's not like it's an aluminum flywheel, which people also use.

    Shouldn't matter anyway, my bellhousing's going to be steel.

    Resizing means they take material off the rod cap and re-machine the large end of the rod by honing it to bring it into perfectly round and correct clearance for the rod bearings.

    This is my engine rebuilding web page, it explains exactly why, where, and how much the pistons were. They were $764.90 after all was said and done. I did not know about IE's custom forged pistons for $600 at the time, however I did know about Wiseco, JE, Venolia, Ross, and IPP's pistons.
    Got it thanx. I'm still confused what part they machined (brain farting here) and trying to think what advantages it has.

    PS - PM me your number.

    E21 LEGION


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 340i View Post
    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...
    Hmmm...
    That is alot of meat removed.
    Milo - double check on that before putting it to use.
    Steel bellhousings for race use is/was common to save lives.

    Be safe!
    Btw: those pistons look perty beefy .
    Last edited by epmedia; 07-09-2010 at 06:22 PM.
    Tbd

  9. #9
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    Turbo E21,12 WRX,03 S2K
    BTW are you going turbo, I forget?

    Also, what ring of rings are you going to use, gapless top ring?

    E21 LEGION


    Crypto success: http://brief.watchersfrontline.com/SHV

  10. #10
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    Resizing Rods
    I'll try to explain it without pictures because I don't have a scanner right now.

    If you have an old con rod that has lateral play then that means there is material missing from the inside of the rod journal. You can sort of fix this by using a larger rod bearing, but if it's not just too big, but rather is missing more material on the outer edge of the journal vs the inside of the journal (most likely) then it's still going to have a little play.

    You resize it by taking the rod apart, milling the rod cap down slightly, making your bearing journal now too small, so then you hone it out larger and evenly and you can use standard bearings and there is no lateral play.

    Flywheel
    I'll be careful and I might run it by another machinist but this shop does a metric ton of work and they've been around for ever. They are the shop Ireland Engineering uses. I'm not too worried.

    Turbo
    Hells yeah. TDO4-15G

    Rings
    They are the standard CP rings, nothing fancy here.

    Pistons
    They are a fair bit lighter than the stock pistons. I'll check the weights at some point.
    Last edited by milotrain; 07-09-2010 at 06:29 PM.

  11. #11
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    YES!
    Just think of the money I'll save on porn now!
    Thank you Milo for the eye-candy.
    And thank you Boosted for calling him out.
    Eric P.

  12. #12
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    Its a good feeling having all the parts together ready for a build like that hey.

    why an 8:1 cp? Im thinking 8.5:1 for my build (when i get 2 it)

    As far as i understand with lightening a flywheel, it would reduce the centripetal load as much as it would the strength (as long as it is done properly) so if it wont break before it wont after. if that makes sense.

    Its great to see builds like this go ahead.
    Last edited by Beemer Tech; 07-10-2010 at 02:00 AM.
    B Road Blaster

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer Tech View Post
    As far as i understand with lightening a flywheel, it would reduce the centripetal load as much as it would the strength (as long as it is done properly) so if it wont break before it wont after. .
    that is true enough if you dont have any loads on the flywheel, but in cars there are pretty massive shock loadings on flywheels.

    i only questioned it because i thought (like epmedia) that there was a lot removed, and not necessarily in the optimum way, as Layne mentioned.

    of course, from the photo i cant see how much 'meat' is left in the flywheel, so maybe bmw far over-engineers them from the factory? if its been done plenty of times before, likelyhood is that it too will be fine. i just really like being able to walk, so sometimes its better to spend the few hundred bucks on an aftermarket one instead

  14. #14
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    i would have thought by the way they normally break (when they take your feet off at 10,000 rpm) i would say th biggest load they endure would be centripetal. but im not an engineer, only a physics student and im not meaning to argue.

    from what i can see.
    they have only taken 2.45lb out of 15.45lb (16%) so while it looks a lot it isnt that much and its only from the weighted area on the back of the wheel where it wouldnt be loosing any torsional strength.

    Agreed on the part of spending the money on an alloy one and to doing things properly (Enzo Ferrari learnt about exploding fly wheels the hard way and i have also seen first hand what damage they do) but i cant see how milos flywheel is any weaker than it was before.

    like i said not meaning to argue or upset any1 just having an intellectual discussion
    B Road Blaster

  15. #15
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    FORTUNATELY Milo is going to have a steel bellhousing
    (which if I remember correctly is/was a requirement on some race cars).
    Tbd

  16. #16
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    Milo, that is some sweet looking metal! Wish I had taken pics of my new innards before assembly!
    Jayhawk

  17. #17
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    Flywheel Lightened??

    Quote Originally Posted by 340i View Post
    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...

    i wonder about this...and while a flywheel flying apart isn't my real concern...engine performance and engine longevity is...i have a new m10 rebuild and a fresh transmission rebuild but i have yet to put in the clutch kit and flywheel togther...i had the flywheel resurfaced but not lightened...i considered an aluminum flywheel but after talking with a lot of trusted friends...the conversation always turns toward comments about manufacture's proportions and engine balance, engine longevity, and the money spent on engineering and design by the factory...i know that the racing circuit has successfully lightened flywheels for years...but in the end i DID NOT lighten my flywheel YET...

    i am seriously wondering what to do about it...should i...or shouldn't i...that is my question...i put a 292 cam in the engine so i expect that to increase some performance...but for a summer DD where is the "end point" of modifications is what i'm wondering...where does the line between performance enhancements and engine longevity meet?...is lightening a flywheel to much? if so...how much is too much lightening...what does experience say? i don't know these answers and i am not sure where to find them...i have discussed this with my machine shop and IE...and neither answer the question...at least the way i want them too...probably because there are so many possible variables...

    any thoughts on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by 340i View Post
    so the flywheel is weaker than it was before, but it will presumably be getting more abuse? is that safe?

    i dont want to freak you out, but have you seen what happens to flywheels when they break? byebye feet...

    i wonder about this...and while a flywheel flying apart isn't my real concern...engine performance and engine longevity is...i have a new m10 rebuild and a fresh transmission rebuild but i have yet to put in the clutch kit and flywheel togther...i had the flywheel resurfaced but not lightened...i considered an aluminum flywheel but after talking with a lot of trusted friends...the conversation always turns toward comments about manufacture's proportions and engine balance, engine longevity, and the money spent on engineering and design by the factory...i know that the racing circuit has successfully lightened flywheels for years...but in the end i DID NOT lighten my flywheel YET...

    i am seriously wondering what to do about it...should i...or shouldn't i...that is my question...i put a 292 cam in the engine so i expect that to increase some performance...but for a summer DD where is the "end point" of modifications is what i'm wondering...where does the line between performance enhancements and engine longevity meet?...is lightening a flywheel to much? if so...how much is too much lightening...what does experience say? i don't know these answers and i am not sure where to find them...i have discussed this with my machine shop and IE...and neither answer the question...at least the way i want them too...probably because there are so many possible variables...

    any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by 77 320i; 07-10-2010 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    '88 BMW 325iS
    '77 BMW 320i(S)
    '28 Model A Ford Roadster (Stock)

    website is only intended as a storage place where i keep ideas and remedies not original http://the320i.blogspot.com/


  18. #18
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    Flywheel weight has nothing to do with engine longevity. The factory makes them heavy for added smoothness as the average consumer isn't interested in a "rough" car. I have never ever ever heard of someone going lightweight and regretting it or changing it back.

    BTW, the only failures I've seen are on extremely lightened ones for race cars and none of them have been dangerous, barely damaging the bellhousing.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layne View Post
    Flywheel weight has nothing to do with engine longevity. The factory makes them heavy for added smoothness as the average consumer isn't interested in a "rough" car.

    the question i pose is in my mind a logical one in that...given the variations with any rotational dynamics change = proportional and disproportional changes...i.e. as wheel size is increased on an e21 or any other vehicle...the rotational dynamics stress the wheel bearing and decrease the overall longevity of the wheel bearings...how this dynamic would not similarly effect an engine is the thread of thought i am trying to work thorough...

    i'm no expert for sure...but let me be extreme to help me make my point...if you fit a vehicle with over-sized wheels...let's say from stock 135/60/14's to 245/60/16's wheels...the longevity of the wheel bearings is shorter...why? greater level = more stress...i am assuming...perhaps incorrectly...but i am assuming that a lightened flywheel effects the engine' rotational dynamics...and as a result effect the engine's longevity...just as wheel size does...

    that was a series of questions...i am asking? sorry it is long winded...
    '88 BMW 325iS
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    website is only intended as a storage place where i keep ideas and remedies not original http://the320i.blogspot.com/


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77 320i View Post
    the question i pose is in my mind a logical one in that...given the variations with any rotational dynamics change = proportional and disproportional changes...i.e. as wheel size is increased on an e21 or any other vehicle...the rotational dynamics stress the wheel bearing and decrease the overall longevity of the wheel bearings...how this dynamic would not similarly effect an engine is the thread of thought i am trying to work thorough...

    i'm no expert for sure...but let me be extreme to help me make my point...if you fit a vehicle with over-sized wheels...let's say from stock 135/60/14's to 245/60/16's wheels...the longevity of the wheel bearings is shorter...why? greater level = more stress...i am assuming...perhaps incorrectly...but i am assuming that a lightened flywheel effects the engine' rotational dynamics...and as a result effect the engine's longevity...just as wheel size does...

    that was a series of questions...i am asking? sorry it is long winded...
    Using the logic you have laid out...it stands to reason that the load on the engine is now less, not more, with a lightened flywheel. Should increase longevity if any effect at all. Imho.

  21. #21
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    I will say in regards to the flywheel that if it causes the engine to run rougher then it might contribute to decreased longevity, however I had the flywheel, crank, pistons, and rods balanced in order to have the system as smooth as possible. I don't know if it will be smoother than stock but it should be plenty smooth.

    Since photos seemed to be such a hit I took some while cleaning the garage.

    TURBO!!! TD04-15g off a Volvo.


    Wastegate and relief valve painted. Wastegate should be of the 12lbs flavor.


    Compressor side fan. Someone did not run this on a proper tune. I reclocked the core so that my oil feed and return lines made sense. With the volvo TD04s there is a heinous snap ring that must be removed, also there are indexing pins to keep the turbo from getting assembled with an improper "clock". They pull out easily.


    Compressor housing header flange. Same bolt pattern as a T3.


    Compressor outlet, WOOO 3". It's angled funky so that it's aimed back at the head with a top mount turbo. Shouldn't be much of a problem though.


    Head with numbered valves and the telltale dykem. These are the original valves, they just cleaned them up.


    Dual springs using the original springs as outer springs and adding ChroMo retainers.


    Reground Cam


    Piston top. You can see the slight dish as well as the almost non existent exhaust valve relief.


    410g on my lab scale. All pistons are 410 save one which is 409. For reference a business card weighs about a gram. All wrist pins are 99g.


    Which is huge compared to the domed 1.8L cast piston


    And still significant compared to the flat tops.


    Rods are shiny!


    Detail of the honing and new bushing


    Better detail of the honing


    Rods on the scale. All rods are within 2 grams. Two are 722, one is 721, one is 720.


    Main Caps numbered. 1,2, and 4 were numbered, 3 and 5 were not so I knocked a pin punch into 3 and 5.


    Then I cleaned them with a steel brush and an SOS pad.
    Last edited by milotrain; 07-12-2010 at 08:07 PM.

  22. #22
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    EXCELLENT pictures!!! thanks for sharing them...


    Quote Originally Posted by erok320i View Post
    Using the logic you have laid out...it stands to reason that the load on the engine is now less, not more, with a lightened flywheel. Should increase longevity if any effect at all. Imho.
    i am concerned that my question is high-jacking the thread and that is not my intent...but these pictures and build have genuinely prompted my interest and questions...

    @erok320i...i see your point but i think the that "merely lightening a flywheel" without balancing the entire engine is the point i am somewhat struggling to make here...(read that as a lot more $$) and thus the reason for counter-weighted pulleys and balancing the engine's "new" rotational dynamics...these things as i am sure you know are attempting to bring greater rotational balance to the engine...lessening the stress created by just lighten one side of the engine...as i am typing this i am understanding my own point a little clearer...if we are serious about lightning bits and pieces to get a free revving engine then why not consider a carbon fiber drive shaft or even aluminum for that matter?...CF would rotationally flex more that the metal counterpart and reduce strain on the engine...and a similar effect is still achieved without balance issues...this is just a theoretical question is am posing...i guess i am sort of just talking out loud here...but i am highly suspect that using just a lightened flywheel with a stock, non counterweighted crankshaft requires much more machine work to dampen the harmonics, bending, torsional twist and vibration...without doing so would seem to cause premature case, piston, rod bearing and even possible crank damage...particularly, at acceleration through high rev's which is the ultimate reason intended with a lightened flywheel...then as i say that i am thinking that between a lightened flywheel, and a lumpier cam(292) in the 320i i am restoring...drive-ability is my concern...while not actually increasing speed...a lightened flywheel would increase response, yes...but at the cost of consistent flow through acceleration and deceleration...and i guess the reason i haven't done it yet (but i want to if i can work though these issues) seems not advisable for a summer season daily driver...in a track car i get it...i guess its about the application...and the truth is...and i am embarrassed to admit it...i have never driven a car before-and-after lightening a flywheel...
    Last edited by 77 320i; 07-10-2010 at 06:55 PM.
    '88 BMW 325iS
    '77 BMW 320i(S)
    '28 Model A Ford Roadster (Stock)

    website is only intended as a storage place where i keep ideas and remedies not original http://the320i.blogspot.com/


  23. #23
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    I don't have a problem with the jack at all. It's all good info.

    I agree that just lightening everything without balancing might be bad. That's why I spend the extra to do a full balance. Was around $125, totally worth it I think.

    I know a fair number of volvo guys who when doing a manual swap actually go with the heavier of the two possible flywheels because they like the feel more. I'm not going to drive this car all the time, I also don't have any problem with a car that feels rough or isn't particularly elegant all the time.

    I won't have before and after comparisons. Firstly because I can't argue that I'll remember, second because the engine will bo so worlds different from what it is now that it will be an apples to bacon comparison. mmmmmm apples and bacon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer Tech View Post
    Its a good feeling having all the parts together ready for a build like that hey.

    why an 8:1 cp? Im thinking 8.5:1 for my build (when i get 2 it)
    Sorry I never got to this. Primary reason is because of Cali Octane availability. 91 is as high as it goes. I can always turn up the boost if I am in a place where much higher octane is available but I wanted headroom.

    Plan is to have 12 + 18 lbs of boost on a control switch for normal every day driving and possible max of 25lbs if the moon is bright and the mountains are empty.
    Last edited by milotrain; 07-10-2010 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  24. #24
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    Very nice.

    It might be too late now but could I make two suggestions:

    - look at having the pistons gas ported to provide back pressure to the top ring. Excellent for boosted applications. Also make sure you have a napier-style 2nd ring.

    http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...rep/index.html

    - Have the skirts and piston tops coated by a local shop, Swain or Calico. The skirt protection in a slant-4 like the M10 is imperative, while the piston top will keep the fire in the belly of the beast. I would also consider the valve faces and even the stem/top face of the exhaust valve since it is a stock valve.

    here is a good article:
    http://www.techlinecoatings.com/arti...ns_Article.htm

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
    91 is as high as it goes.
    .
    Ouch that sucks. you guys get it hard in your state. how dear is race fuel over there, here its only a little dearer than pump fuel cos there isnt as much tax on it (your not supposed to run it on the steet but you wont get caught) its jst a pain having 205 liter drums of the stuff and having to pump it by hand.



    As far as 77 320i questions go,

    I have never heard of a lightened flywheel reducing the life of an engine, and anyway i would say if your running boost or big rpm they will wear things out one hundred times faster anyway.

    (now for some more physics with Ed)
    Is far as lightening a drive shaft over a fly wheel, the moment of inertia (mass in rotational dynamics) is hugely greater for a disc than a shaft of the same mass, plus you have a gear box in between that effectively reduces the drive shafts influence even more.

    lightening the rotating mass of an engine actually increases it power output, this seems strange to most ppl, but its true and this is why. power (kw, ps or Hp) is the measure of work (force x distance) divided by time, a mass has to have force on it to accelerate (newtons first law) So an engine actually uses power to increase its rpm, so by lightening its internals there is more power available to accelerate the car rather than just wasting it internally. if anyone took the time to read this, i hope you found it interesting
    Last edited by Beemer Tech; 07-11-2010 at 05:01 AM.
    B Road Blaster

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