Quest for 500rwhp RMS stage 2+

[futureroadracer]

I would really like to know if the temp is due to aftercooler heatsoak or the IAT location.

[MrBlonde]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I have never had too much power.

Oh there is such a thing, but perhaps not with a supercharged BMW inline 6 street car.

[chikinhed]

An old Harley with a 100 shot?

[DavidsM3]

I honestly dont think a t-trim on a US m3 motor is going to make 500whp without nos.

[Mod Addict]

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

Oh there is such a thing, but perhaps not with a supercharged BMW inline 6 street car.

Philip get a big turbo and add alot of boost then check back.

Originally Posted by DavidsM3

I honestly dont think a t-trim on a US m3 motor is going to make 500whp without nos.

+1 (nitrous ftw) 460rwhp + a 50 shot =

[DavidsM3]

Originally Posted by Mod Addict

Philip get a big turbo and alot of boost then check back.





+1 (nitrous ftw) 460rwhp + a 50 shot =

. GT35r power FTW. The standard rms aftercooler isnt going to cut it for 500whp.

[Mod Addict]

Originally Posted by DavidsM3

. GT35r power FTW. The standard rms aftercooler isnt going to cut it for 500whp.

I agree with the aftercooler being about at its max, thats why the nitrous is such a great Idea. Cool the intake charge and geta big boost in torque which would give it that extra boost to bump the s/c over the limit. (500whp)


Or just get a turbo. Just kidding.....


Mad props for trying to break new ground with the s/c.

[SiGmA]

Turbo FTMFW!

Originally Posted by chikinhed

Something is heat soaked, my IAT probe is in the intake manifold so I think it is the manifold. Maybe I will use my infrared thermometer to check the aftercooler and intake manifold to see which one it is........ updates to follow.

You run a stock plastic manifold, right? I kind of doubt its the manifold heatsoaking.. The cool air being drawn in from the bumper should help fix that anyway. I'm curious, let us know what you find! My car also heatsoaks, but my turbo inlet is right above the exhaust manifold

Originally Posted by futureroadracer

I would really like to know if the temp is due to aftercooler heatsoak or the IAT location.

+1

[milKT]

You're doing fine








but yeah,
go turbo
(this coming from a s/c dick)

[futureroadracer]

My question is why? What are you basing your opinion on? I think it is comical when everyone says it can't be done, yet they have never tried. I mean, there is what, 3 guys running T-trims with 60's. Neither have had the car custom tuned in person, well except for M3Jasper that made over 500whp with a T-trim (@54K) and 60's.

The T-trim has been proven to make power over 55k, hence why I am spinning it to 57k. While I agree the RMS aftercooler is a bit small for the 500whp, I feel it is extremely shortsighted to say it can't be done.

It is comical when I read these negative post, it looks very similar to the comments made right here on this forum about 400whp with a CF... How did that turn out?

Originally Posted by DavidsM3

I honestly dont think a t-trim on a US m3 motor is going to make 500whp without nos.

Even though it has been done already? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by DavidsM3

. GT35r power FTW. The standard rms aftercooler isnt going to cut it for 500whp.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Mod Addict

Philip get a big turbo and add alot of boost then check back.

It is certainly something I have been thinking about. Seeing your formerly supercharged car as you converted it to turbo has motivated me. You did a nice job.

[marc1119]

I have already lost my friend over this thread because I gave my honest experience and knowledge on this subject matter....so I have been trying to limit my participation in this thread...

We can talk, talk , talk about this all day...Go ahead and do it, I want you too...
Lets see what it takes, and at what price, and who is going to tune it..

You have to make at least 400 peak RWT and hang on to 376 RWT at redline to make 500 RWHP..period...end of story...

The top guys make peak 350-360 RWT.....how are you going to get to 400 RWT, and hang on to at least 376 at redline? By spinning the blower faster?
Does spinning the blower AT or beyond its limits GAURANTEE more power..no way...
I would say you will LOSE power, if you did a 53,000 RPM dyno pull, compared to a 56,000 RPM dyno pull...Heat..............

Can someone break 500 RWHP without using Nitrous? I do not know because it has not really happened yet....besides Rob Green out of this country..( 700 RWHP with a Euro motor)



400 RWHP and 500RWHP are 2 entirely different animals...I have a 2 inch thick dyno sheet folder and the same size receipt folder, breaking 400 RWHP..
I believe 500 RWHP is going to much tougher....It is about TORQUE..and because boost comes on with RPM, so does the Torque...that is what is limiting this, and alot of heat and alot of parasitic loss...and tuning

I like to deal in facts..with things I have personally experienced...and adding 50-60-70 RWHP to these car by virtue of overspinning or running your blower to redline a few thousand more RPM in my opinion, not going to easily happen..

The guy that broke 400 RWHP and reported first on this website like 5 years ago is saying 500 aint going to be so easy..

My panties are not in a bunch..
Just dealing in the facts....make 400 RWT at 6000-6200 RPM and with a nice flowing motor you may hang onto 376 at Redline...

May need a bigger Y trim and a better monster Intercooler, and then I will change my opinion...

Marco

[futureroadracer]

Like I have said at least 5 times before... we will have to wait and see. I am not going to go back and forth over this with anyone.

Hopefully I will have the first set of numbers soon.

[marc1119]

Originally Posted by futureroadracer

Like I have said at least 5 times before... we will have to wait and see. I am not going to go back and forth over this with anyone.

Hopefully I will have the first set of numbers soon.

I did not ask you to go back and forth with me or anyone else....

You are justifying your logic and questioning negativity...it is not negativity, it is another factual view of the pitfalls you will face trying to make 500 RWHP..the original thread was started by someone else, you sort of turned it into YOUR thread..I am addressing the THREAD and the topic, not necessarily you..

You have your logic, it will either work or won't..

I have already put my money and time and experience where my mouth is with these cars, pushing it..I have zero to prove or impress anyone...

Good Luck to you....

[NickG]

As has been previously stated, M3Jasper's car pulled over 500rwhp using a Vortech based system nearly 2.5 years ago. Attached is a dyno graph showing several of the runs that were done resulting in over 500rwhp. If you look closely at the timestamps (which are unmodified), you'll see that some of the runs were back-to-back with no engine shut-off.

While getting over 500rwhp with a Vortech can be done on these engines (we've already done it), it is NOT easy. The amount of power drawn by the supercharger is immense. I've determined this by logging the airflow consumed by the engine, as well as the injector duty cycle, with this combination. This 500+rwhp SC setup needed as much air and fuel as a 600+rwhp turbo setup. That right there tells you how much power is lost to spinning these blowers at high rpms.

So like I said, it can be done, and has been done. It's just not easy (ie, takes a fair amount of money) nor IMHO practical. But if it floats your boat, go for it

[marc1119]

Was Jaspers 515 RWHP run done without Nitrous?
Yes or no?

[NickG]

Originally Posted by marc1119

Was Jaspers 515 RWHP run done without Nitrous?
Yes or no?

What the hell are you talking about? There was no nitrous involved with any of these runs

[marc1119]

Originally Posted by NickG

What the hell are you talking about? There was no nitrous involved with any of these runs

I think you are misinformed..sir

[NickG]

Originally Posted by marc1119

I think you are misinformed..sir

No, you're the one who is misinformed, and as usual, starting crap.

I was there doing the tuning. You Marco, weren't there. I know exactly what the car was running, and nitrous wasn't involved. I would have thought you would have grown up after all of these years, but I guess not. This isn't the behavior I would have expected from a Turner Motorsports employee.

[marc1119]

Very funny....my behavior?

Whatever Nick....When the time is right..I will continue this..just not now...

[NickG]

I'm sure you will continue, as it apparently never ends with you. Make sure you bring FACTS (not illusions in your head) when you decide to bring this up again.

[marc1119]

Oh I did... and I will..

Not in the mood today...

[DavidsM3]

Originally Posted by futureroadracer

My question is why? What are you basing your opinion on? I think it is comical when everyone says it can't be done, yet they have never tried. I mean, there is what, 3 guys running T-trims with 60's. Neither have had the car custom tuned in person, well except for M3Jasper that made over 500whp with a T-trim (@54K) and 60's.

The T-trim has been proven to make power over 55k, hence why I am spinning it to 57k. While I agree the RMS aftercooler is a bit small for the 500whp, I feel it is extremely shortsighted to say it can't be done.

It is comical when I read these negative post, it looks very similar to the comments made right here on this forum about 400whp with a CF... How did that turn out?

Even though it has been done already? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Honestly I'm not bashing it. It will be very hard to make 500whp with out nitrous(cheaper solution to an expensive goal). I would love to see more dyno sheets of T-trim'd e36's. I see 1 has been posted, but I would love to see more dyno sheets of them. Good luck to hitting the 500whp goal.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by NickG

As has been previously stated, M3Jasper's car pulled over 500rwhp using a Vortech based system nearly 2.5 years ago. Attached is a dyno graph showing several of the runs that were done resulting in over 500rwhp. If you look closely at the timestamps (which are unmodified), you'll see that some of the runs were back-to-back with no engine shut-off.

While getting over 500rwhp with a Vortech can be done on these engines (we've already done it), it is NOT easy. The amount of power drawn by the supercharger is immense. I've determined this by logging the airflow consumed by the engine, as well as the injector duty cycle, with this combination. This 500+rwhp SC setup needed as much air and fuel as a 600+rwhp turbo setup. That right there tells you how much power is lost to spinning these blowers at high rpms.

So like I said, it can be done, and has been done. It's just not easy (ie, takes a fair amount of money) nor IMHO practical. But if it floats your boat, go for it

I agree that spinning blowers at high boost saps a lot of crank hp. I have watched injector duty cycle and was surprised to find my 42 lb injectors (47 lbs at our BMWs' 3.5 bar fuel pressure) maxed out just after 13 psi on my modded S52. I was not making the kind of rwhp that a turbo car would with the same injectors at the same duty cycle.

I am curious as to whether the little RMS water to air intercooler is creating a pressure drop at these sorts of flow levels that means we have to spin the blower faster than necessary and thus sap more crank hp than necessary. Did you do any pressure drop testing on M3Jasper's car?

[m3jasper]

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

Oh there is such a thing, but perhaps not with a supercharged BMW inline 6 street car.

Originally Posted by DavidsM3

I honestly dont think a t-trim on a US m3 motor is going to make 500whp without nos.

I already did it.

Originally Posted by futureroadracer

My question is why? What are you basing your opinion on? I think it is comical when everyone says it can't be done, yet they have never tried. I mean, there is what, 3 guys running T-trims with 60's. Neither have had the car custom tuned in person, well except for M3Jasper that made over 500whp with a T-trim (@54K) and 60's.

The T-trim has been proven to make power over 55k, hence why I am spinning it to 57k. While I agree the RMS aftercooler is a bit small for the 500whp, I feel it is extremely shortsighted to say it can't be done.

Nice post.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

It is certainly something I have been thinking about. Seeing your formerly supercharged car as you converted it to turbo has motivated me. You did a nice job.

If you want more power, it's the only way to go.

Originally Posted by marc1119

I have already lost my friend over this thread because I gave my honest experience and knowledge on this subject matter....so I have been trying to limit my participation in this thread...

We can talk, talk , talk about this all day...Go ahead and do it, I want you too...
Lets see what it takes, and at what price, and who is going to tune it..

You have to make at least 400 peak RWT and hang on to 376 RWT at redline to make 500 RWHP..period...end of story...

The top guys make peak 350-360 RWT.....how are you going to get to 400 RWT, and hang on to at least 376 at redline? By spinning the blower faster?
Does spinning the blower AT or beyond its limits GAURANTEE more power..no way...
I would say you will LOSE power, if you did a 53,000 RPM dyno pull, compared to a 56,000 RPM dyno pull...Heat..............

Can someone break 500 RWHP without using Nitrous? I do not know because it has not really happened yet....besides Rob Green out of this country..( 700 RWHP with a Euro motor)



400 RWHP and 500RWHP are 2 entirely different animals...I have a 2 inch thick dyno sheet folder and the same size receipt folder, breaking 400 RWHP..
I believe 500 RWHP is going to much tougher....It is about TORQUE..and because boost comes on with RPM, so does the Torque...that is what is limiting this, and alot of heat and alot of parasitic loss...and tuning

I like to deal in facts..with things I have personally experienced...and adding 50-60-70 RWHP to these car by virtue of overspinning or running your blower to redline a few thousand more RPM in my opinion, not going to easily happen..

The guy that broke 400 RWHP and reported first on this website like 5 years ago is saying 500 aint going to be so easy..

My panties are not in a bunch..
Just dealing in the facts....make 400 RWT at 6000-6200 RPM and with a nice flowing motor you may hang onto 376 at Redline...

May need a bigger Y trim and a better monster Intercooler, and then I will change my opinion...

Marco

Who did you lose as a friend because of this thread?

Originally Posted by NickG

As has been previously stated, M3Jasper's car pulled over 500rwhp using a Vortech based system nearly 2.5 years ago. Attached is a dyno graph showing several of the runs that were done resulting in over 500rwhp. If you look closely at the timestamps (which are unmodified), you'll see that some of the runs were back-to-back with no engine shut-off.

While getting over 500rwhp with a Vortech can be done on these engines (we've already done it), it is NOT easy. The amount of power drawn by the supercharger is immense. I've determined this by logging the airflow consumed by the engine, as well as the injector duty cycle, with this combination. This 500+rwhp SC setup needed as much air and fuel as a 600+rwhp turbo setup. That right there tells you how much power is lost to spinning these blowers at high rpms.

So like I said, it can be done, and has been done. It's just not easy (ie, takes a fair amount of money) nor IMHO practical. But if it floats your boat, go for it

Exactly what I've told everyone. I remember you showing me the logs and explaining to me how Josh's car needed the same fuel as mine did and his was making 120rwhp more.

Originally Posted by marc1119

Was Jaspers 515 RWHP run done without Nitrous?
Yes or no?

Yes. No nitrous was used.