Methanol and Safety

[=BA=]

Out here in racing you need to have a gastight rear bulkhead if you have any parts of the fuelsystem in your trunk, also hydraulic and oil lines can run through the passengerscabin but are not allowed to have any connections.

Seems to me if you have a sealed off trunk just like you would have when running a fuelcell or have a anti starvation system in the trunk, you should be fine with methanol.

It's not the flammability that would bother me but as NeilM says, it's toxic and not very good for you health. A tank will need a vent system and Methanol has a pretty high vapor pressure, could be ok when the pumps are running but when switched off I can imagine that methanol vapors will enter the cabin without a sealed firewall. Especially since temperatures are usually very hot in racing verhicles, methanol can already generate something like 6 or 7 PSI of vaporpressure at something like 120F.

[JClark]

Meth tanks at DEs are pretty common and have been for awhile. IMHO, there are far more dangerous things to worry about in/on your student's car.

[mdadgar]

Originally Posted by JClark

Meth tanks at DEs are pretty common and have been for awhile. IMHO, there are far more dangerous things to worry about in/on your student's car.

Like the student?

- Mark

[Neil]

Originally Posted by mdadgar

Like the student?

- Mark

Toxic students with venting problems are certainly not uncommon...

Neil

[saem3]

Originally Posted by Neil

Toxic students with venting problems are certainly not uncommon...

Neil

Steve E.

[NeilM]

Wait a minute: don't BMW CCA rules already forbid the use of alcohol during DE school hours? There you go, no methanol for you!

Digression: I once met a guy who lived in a cabin in the mountains in Tennessee. He had tattoos all over his body, including one allegedly in, err, a sensitive private place which when, umm, extended supposedly read "Your Name Here." (Definitely not verified by me...) Anyway, over the years he'd consumed way too much moonshine, which is often contaminated with methanol as part of the distillation process. As a result he suffered from "drop foot," a symptom peripheral nerve damage that causes loss of sensation in the extremities and consequent difficulty with motor skills. No word on whether he added the stuff to his car's gas tank.

Neil

[Z3racer701]

Originally Posted by NeilM

Wait a minute: don't BMW CCA rules already forbid the use of alcohol during DE school hours? There you go, no methanol for you!

Digression: I once met a guy who lived in a cabin in the mountains in Tennessee. He had tattoos all over his body, including one allegedly in, err, a sensitive private place which when, umm, extended supposedly read "Your Name Here." (Definitely not verified by me...) Anyway, over the years he'd consumed way too much moonshine, which is often contaminated with methanol as part of the distillation process. As a result he suffered from "drop foot," a symptom peripheral nerve damage that causes loss of sensation in the extremities and consequent difficulty with motor skills. No word on whether he added the stuff to his car's gas tank.

Neil

So then DE students aren't susposed to use their windshield washers either?

Wikipedia (Links)

Windshield_washer_fluid

[drivrswntd]

Originally Posted by Z3racer701

So then DE students aren't susposed to use their windshield washers either?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windshield_washer_fluid

That was exactly what I was about to say as well, but was reading through this post to see if anyone mentioned it. Washer fluid is usually a 50/50 methanol mix, and they use the same kind of tank that is being used in these Meth injection systems.

[5mall5nail5]

Aw man now I have to drain my washer fluid which sits in the engine bay

[NeilM]

Washer fluid is diluted enough that its methanol is no longer flammable. No word on its drinking qualities.

Neil

[mdadgar]

Originally Posted by NeilM

Washer fluid is diluted enough that its methanol is no longer flammable. No word on its drinking qualities.

How much tonic and lime do you need to add before it stops being explosive?

- Mark

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by mdadgar

How much tonic and lime do you need to add before it stops being explosive?

- Mark

It's perfectly safe once you add a dash of grenadine and an olive. Just stir it as shaking it will render it useless.

[GGray]

If I had a student with it I would make him unhook it, or I wouldn't be in the car on track.. WTF its a dam DE not a race... They need to get a grip, if they need to go that fast get a race car... SCCA its no go...

Seen one too many fuel fed fires.. Methonal burns so hot you can't see it until its too late.

I'd have to say its not safe in a plastic container in a non bulkheaded car.. Fold down seats don't really pass as a sealed compartment...

[BobWright]

Washer fluid is a much dilluted aziotrope.....nothing like pure alcohol......like comparing the flamability of beer to Grain.

MORAL of the story.....leave the F*&king alcohol fuel to the Funny cars and funny people like Jesse and his crew

[gobuffs]

Excuse me for a stupid question...what's the reason for using it? More boost? Where does the methanol and water line output go to?

[Z3racer701]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

Excuse me for a stupid question...what's the reason for using it? More boost? Where does the methanol and water line output go to?

I know that wiki isn't always accurate but check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

When our ambient temperature is over 100F and humidity is below 20% water injection would even help a NA motor. IT rules makes me keep the windshield washer bottle, and it's just sitting there not doing anything....

[GGray]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

Excuse me for a stupid question...what's the reason for using it? More boost? Where does the methanol and water line output go to?

Its primary use is in Forced Induction cars, lowers the charge temps and also helps with detonation at higher boost levels. Also if the car is running higher compression, such as the N54 motor, or a stock turboed E36M3, it allows you to run more boost than without the meth. Allot of supercharged M3's run it since fitting a proper Air to air, or even air to water, cooler are not viable due to packaging of the supercharger.

On NA motors its not a big advantage on a dyno NA cars show little if any gains and sometime a power loss if the mixture is not correct.

Some people actually do run winshield washer fluid instead of methonal or a meth/water mixture...

[NeilM]

Originally Posted by mdadgar

How much tonic and lime do you need to add before it stops being explosive?

- Mark

Damn ice cubes keep melting as soon as you drop them in.

Neil

[G60MM]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

Excuse me for a stupid question...what's the reason for using it? More boost? Where does the methanol and water line output go to?

From snowperformance.

1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?

Boost Cooler Benefits (Gasoline):

1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for as low as $304?
2. More Power - We don't create an intake restriction like an intercooler, and unlike race gas, we reduce intake air temps and improve charge air density too!
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Easy Installation - Snow Performance systems can be installed in a matter of hours without having to remove bumpers or do custom intake piping.
5. Engine Health - Snow Performance systems effectively steam clean the valves, valve seats, and even the piston tops and intake when they inject. This reduces carbon build up.


2. Can the Boost Cooler be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?

• Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:
Water/Methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and higher timing advance potential.

• Engines using nitrous:
With nitrous, water/methanol injection allows the use of more timing advance even with large (250HP+) quantities. The cooling effect of the water/methanol inside the combustion chamber also makes for reduced peak combustion temperatures.

• Naturally aspirated/stock compression:
With naturally aspirated engines using less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used often in warm climates to get the intake temps lower. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing as well as more effective air/fuel ratios, increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers.

While power gains are typically less in stock compression naturally aspirated vehicles compared to high compression or forced induction engines, benefits can still be realized due to more timing advance, leaner air/fuel ratios, cleaner engine components, lower temperatures, and the use of the methanol in the injection fluid as a secondary fuel source.


3. Does the Snow Performance system work a carbureted application?

Yes.
• We have systems for carbureted vehicles without superchargers or turbochargers. They inject according to vacuum and deliver 20-25 point octane gains over regular pump gas when using a 50/50 mix of water/methanol.
• Any Snow Performance system can be used with or feature the special 4150 or 4500 style carb plates as well. MC and RT series systems include the carb plates.
• Many muscle cars that previously required expensive high octane fuel now use regular pump gas with our system while getting better performance. These cars can use our MC (naturally aspirated) and RT (supercharged or turbocharged) series systems for a clean installation and great results.


4. What power gains can I expect?

Boost Coolers® allow for more power in two ways on a gasoline application.
• Extra octane. This allows for much more aggressive tuning safely to make more power. Timing can often be advanced 10 or more degrees in the power band. Boost can often be increased 5 or more PSI. Air/fuel ratios of around 12.5:1 can be utilized even in high boost applications.
• Better cooling of the intake air charge. We often cool intake air temperatures 50-150 degrees. This means denser air charge for more efficient power.

If these methods are used, a 20% increase in HP is possible. In naturally aspirated applications, gains of 5-10% are possible.


5. Can the Snow Performance system improve my fuel economy?

Yes. The MPG-MAX™ systems are designed to do just that. Both the diesel and gasoline MPG-MAX™ systems are specifically designed to inject a very small and precise amount of water/methanol under normal driving conditions such as accelerating away from a stop light or driving up a slight grade.

• The extra 20-25 points of octane provided allows for more spark timing advance and a leaner air/fuel ratio with the use of a programmer. Both of these factors not only improve power, their efficiency gains improve mileage as well. Additionally, many modern cars will detect the combustion of the methanol and reduce the injection of gasoline accordingly through the adjustment of long-term fuel trim values in the vehicles computer. This can directly and positively impact gasoline fuel economy. Gains of 5-15% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.


6. What fluid can I use in my system?

• Boost Juice®: This is the best fluid to use and is Snow Performance’s 49% methanol, 51% water mixture that can be shipped to your door or picked up at a local dealer. (If you are using your washer reservoir as the injection tank, Boost Juice® is a great washer fluid – works as a de-icer!)
• Windshield Washer fluid: Only if it is blue in color and rated for -20 deg F. It should have no special additives. This means it is safe to use and made of about 30% methanol, 70% water. If it is another color or another temperature rating, do not use it.
• You can “spike” your Blue -20 Washer fluid to a 50% mixture by adding 2 yellow bottles of Heet® gas-line-antifreeze to every gallon of washer fluid.
• Mix your own: You just need to make sure the methanol is “neat” and contains no lubricants or other additives. We recommend a 50% mixture.
• Ethanol: It is not as good as methanol, but it can be used as a 2nd best option if you can’t find methanol. It can also be mixed with water up to 50%.
• Do NOT use E85 or any other fluid with gasoline mixed in. It will destroy the fluid delivery part of your Boost Cooler® and instantly void the warranty.
• Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.


7. Why Methanol?

Methanol is a very high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these characteristics, it suppresses detonation more effectively than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It is toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.


8. Where can I purchase Methanol?

• Snow Performance sells 51/49 water/methanol mix as Boost Juice™ (see products). If this is used exclusively, Snow Performance can lifetime warranty a system so long as the free registration card is sent in soon after purchase.
• Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heet" are simply methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply methanol for a very reasonable price. Ensure that the methanol is "neat" and therefore has no additives or lubricants added by the supplier.
• -20 degree F rated, blue windshield washer fluid is acceptable for use as well, and is available at most service stations. Although some fluids rated to under -20 degrees F contain glycol and other copolymers, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% methanol. Try to find one that displays "contains methanol" on the label and is good to -20 degrees F, with no additives or special ingredients and is blue in color.
• Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and www.hiperfuels.com.
• Additionally, many sprint car drivers and circle track and drag racers use methanol as a primary fuel. They often have methanol on hand and will even sell methanol that has been un-sealed for a long time at a very low price. Just be sure that the methanol has NO additives or lubricants (such as top lube), as they are not needed and can damage the pump.



9. What ratio of water/methanol is recommended?

• A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and safety.

• Ratios of anywhere from 30% to 50% methanol work well and deliver excellent octane gains and cooling.


10. Can I use pure methanol?

While all components of Snow Performance systems are designed to be able to handle pure methanol, it is not recommended for a number of reasons.

• Safety: Pure methanol is easy to ignite and burns with an almost invisible flame.
• Performance: Water absorbs twice as much heat as methanol in the intake and inside the combustion chamber. Water cannot be flash-ignited, so has what is almost an infinite octane number. In the government studies for WWII piston-powered aircraft, 50/50 water-methanol was found to be the best fluid to use for auxiliary fluid injection.
• Tuning and Engine reliability: Injecting 50/50 water-methanol will prevent over-injection. If too much is injected, it will quench the flame front and the engine will bog and lose power. If too much straight methanol is injected, this will not happen, as methanol is very forgiving of rich mixtures. This could instead lead to explosive backfires, cylinder wash, etc. which will not happen when 50% or more water is in the mixture.


11. Do I need an intercooler with Water/Methanol Injection?

Up to approximately 30 psig of boost, water/methanol injection (using 50% methanol) will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits, especially beyond 30 psig of boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. For example, with 11 psi of boost and the resulting 120°f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psig. on average.


12. Why not use a windshield washer pump?

• Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psig to properly atomize. Lower than 50psig causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area. Also with inadequate atomization, there is a greater propensity to quench combustion resulting in a loss of power.

• Snow Performance systems also regularly inject into charge air passages at 40 psig or higher boost pressure, and a simple washer pump will not handle that kind of stress. The pumps in Snow Performance kits are specifically built for water/methanol injection in any environment that might arise.


13. How much range will a tank of Water/Methanol provide?

This depends on a number of variables. HP, injection system, settings, driving style, etc.

• For most engines in the 200-500hp range, the standard 3qt tank will last around a tank of gasoline.
• For higher HP levels with the MPG system, it will be more like 1 gallon per tank full of gasoline. The #40016 2.5 Gallon reservoir could last two or even three tanks of gasoline.


14. I dont have any room in the engine bay for a reservoir, what are my options?


• Use the factory washer-fluid tank. A bulkhead fitting (PN# 40080) allows the use of the factory washer fluid tank as a reservoir. 50/50 water/methanol makes an excellent washer fluid. Kits for the 1.8T, 2.0T, WRX/STI, and others utilize this strategy.
• Trunk mounted reservoir. The reservoir and pump can be mounted in the trunk. 2.5 gallon reservoir upgrades (PN# 40014) feature extra tubing and mounting brackets for trunk mounting. We always recommend a #40060 solenoid for trunk mounting.


15. Where can I mount my reservoir and pump?

The pump needs to be within about 24” (hose length) of the reservoir, and as low or lower than the base of the reservoir. It is a “pusher” pump, not a “puller” pump.
• Engine bay: In the engine bay, the reservoir and pump can be placed almost anywhere, as long as they are not very close to exhaust heat, or in the path of debris from the road. Be sure that the pump is mounted at the same level or below the reservoir and that the reservoir is not located higher than the nozzle. If the reservoir must be located higher than the nozzle, a solenoid upgrade (part number 40060) is required to prevent gravity feed.
• Trunk mounting: This is fine, but again, the pump needs to be close to the reservoir and gravity fed. Lengths of 20-25 ft of tubing to the nozzle are fine. We always recommend a #40060 solenoid for rear-reservoir mounting, including use of the 2.5 gallon reservoir (part number 40014).

16. Where can I mount the nozzle?

Pre- or Post- throttle body/carburetor?

• Performance: It makes almost no difference. Before or after the throttle plate(s) won’t change the effectiveness of the fluid. A given amount of fluid will absorb a given amount of heat, whether it is done more before or after the throttle plate really doesn’t matter.
• Installation: It is usually easier to inject pre-throttle body in the intake tube. Easy access, no solenoid required (unless rear-mounting a reservoir). On a carburetor, it can actually be easier to use the #40050 carb spacer plate and a #40060 solenoid for a bolt-in installation. These components are included in our RT and MC series systems.
• In a blow-through carburetor setup with an air-box enclosure around the entire carburetor, injecting after the carburetor is preferable.

Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?

• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.

[bmwpowere36m3]

I was going to chime in and say, don't MOST users of water injection in their FI'd engines just run a form of cheapo windshield washer fluid? So this wouldn't be any more unsafe than the current washer tank in the engine compartment. Also isn't 100% methanal not as effective (latent heat-wise) as some mixture of methanal and water (i.e. more water).

[GGray]

Originally Posted by bmwpowere36m3

I was going to chime in and say, don't MOST users of water injection in their FI'd engines just run a form of cheapo windshield washer fluid? So this wouldn't be any more unsafe than the current washer tank in the engine compartment. Also isn't 100% methanal not as effective (latent heat-wise) as some mixture of methanal and water (i.e. more water).

100% methonal in an FI motor is like insta power... It cools slightly but increases the combustion effect.

[5mall5nail5]

its not just windshield washer fluid its windshield washer fluid and a copious amount of HEET.

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted by GGray

100% methonal in an FI motor is like insta power... It cools slightly but increases the combustion effect.

I thought the idea was to cool the intake charge and prevent detonation, thus allowing for higher boost = HP. However that makes sense as well.

*edit*

Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5

its not just windshield washer fluid its windshield washer fluid and a copious amount of HEET.

When I was skimming the FI section a while ago and reading a little on water injection (using it to "clean" carbon inside engine), many users said they used plain windshield washer fluid, Walmart cheapo blue was the preferred choice I'm not denying that 100% methanol isn't/wasn't used, I "thought" the former was more common place.

[5mall5nail5]

My mind is being bottled...

Water/meth cools cylinder temperatures and charge temperatures, but the methanol part of it is a supplemental fuel with very high octane.

[bbh03]

1:1 methanol/water is still quite flammable.