First HPDE this Friday at Monticello South Course, brake pad Q

[trahsub]

I've wanted to do a track day for years, and now that the kids are a little older I finally have found time to get away for a day. I'll be driving my 95' M3 with essentially brand new rotors (OEM, Motorsport fronts), stainless lines, ATE fluid, and Hawk HPS pads.

Question is, for a first timer on this part of Monticello, should I put on HP Plus pads on the front? I have em, I just don't know if I'm going to need them given the track and my experience level.

Also, any other tips for a first timer? Things to bring with me to the track? I can't wait and the weather looks like it's going to be great. Hope to see some people there, I'm heading up with two other E36s.

[B.Watts]

First time...I wouldn't worry about it.

[mattmartindrift]

if you have them, I'd suggest putting them on. The HPS might be fine; but, depending on how fast you progress, you could need more pad. But conversely, if you don't progress quickly, the HP+ will not hurt you in the "lower" temperature ranges.

[B.Watts]

Take them to the track with you...if you need them, it's only a few minutes to change them. I think experiencing a little brake fade is a GOOD thing for a new driver.

[Car54]

Try good brake preservation practice...talk to you instructor about your concerns.

Use a cool-down lap...drive around the paddock if you have to come in hot.

Don't use the brakes to stop your car while the brakes are hot. Learn to coast and use the gearing and clutch to slow/stop yourself. Never press the brake pedal while stopped with hot brakes

Don't use the e-brake when brakes are hot

Try to stay in tune while on track how your pads feel...mushy pedal blame fluid, firm but not slowing correctly, blame pads for fading.

If you feel any pulsing during your sessions, that's your warning to get the HPS's out of there. If you run a whole session with pulsing/shudder, you're going to have to live with it until you can get a more aggressive pad to "clean" the rotor.

[-ursa-]

I did Monticello Thursday and Friday last week. We ran a short version of the course and it was a lot of fun. Based on the configuration that I ran, you should not have an issue with the HPS pads. Probably not a bad idea to have the other pads with you but since it is your first day I would stick to what you have on the car and learn those limits.

Its a great track, hopefully you get to run the full course as it looks awesome. Just stay on track, they told us in the drivers meeting of our second day that the club and individuals will be charged for damages to the track (grass specifically) for their off track excursions. Sounds excessive but at the end of the day remember it is a private country club.

[///Madman]

Originally Posted by -ursa-

I did Monticello Thursday and Friday last week. We ran a short version of the course and it was a lot of fun. Based on the configuration that I ran, you should not have an issue with the HPS pads. Probably not a bad idea to have the other pads with you but since it is your first day I would stick to what you have on the car and learn those limits.

Its a great track, hopefully you get to run the full course as it looks awesome. Just stay on track, they told us in the drivers meeting of our second day that the club and individuals will be charged for damages to the track (grass specifically) for their off track excursions. Sounds excessive but at the end of the day remember it is a private country club.

Threatening people with charges for going off track is a very unsafe practice. This is especially true for Novices since they may try to save what would be an otherwise safe off and wind up wrecking themselves and possibly other cars in the proceess. Runoffs are there for safety not for looks.
Granted,all drivers should be driving within their means and avoid going off track but stuff happnes and when it does I think a driver's last concern should be the cost of fixing the grass. I would not drive at a facility that enforced those policies. I certainly wouldn't instruct there!

[EURO M3 CSL]

Originally Posted by ///Madman

Threatening people with charges for going off track is a very unsafe practice. This is especially true for Novices since they may try to save what would be an otherwise safe off and wind up wrecking themselves and possibly other cars in the proceess. Runoffs are there for safety not for looks.
Granted,all drivers should be driving within their means and avoid going off track but stuff happnes and when it does I think a driver's last concern should be the cost of fixing the grass. I would not drive at a facility that enforced those policies. I certainly wouldn't instruct there!

+1

the whole point of HPDE is learning your car and getting to know its limits as well as your own. Having to worry about destroying grass is a big distraction as (mentioned above) it may cause one to overcorrect one's vehicle and cause it to collide with another passing vehicle. I myself would not drive there as well. Stuff happends.. and when they do and you or someone already feels shitty about it, (Maybe damage to the car?), last thing you want is a bill for running over the newly cut grass. Doesnt grass do more harm then good like causing the car to slid more?

[kishg]

Originally Posted by ///Madman

Threatening people with charges for going off track is a very unsafe practice. This is especially true for Novices since they may try to save what would be an otherwise safe off and wind up wrecking themselves and possibly other cars in the proceess. Runoffs are there for safety not for looks.
Granted,all drivers should be driving within their means and avoid going off track but stuff happnes and when it does I think a driver's last concern should be the cost of fixing the grass. I would not drive at a facility that enforced those policies. I certainly wouldn't instruct there!

+10!

[onrailsm3]

I ran Hawk HPS pads for years before I upgraded to the HP+. I would only experience fade toward the end of a session of real hard cat and mouse tomfoolery which you are not ready for yet.

You won't be going fast enough to worry about your brakes.

Actually try 5 laps with no brakes at all.

Learn to slow the car with downshifts and proper vision and preplanning.

[Dispatch20]

I just had my first driving school at Watkins Glen this past weekend. I had Hawk Performance Ceramics on all 4 corners. I put in ATE racing fluid in a week before and had it properly bled.

After the first session the brakes never felt right again. I literally had to step on the brakes to slow the car (even when cool). The car stopped fast, but I had to use a LOT of force. I could take the car from 125mph on the back stretch down to 60mph or so without an issue. It just felt like my brake booster wasn't working right.

My brakes still feel terrible to this day. I have to push the pedal pretty far down to get any brake stopping power at all. I'm going to put fresh fluid in soon. I visually checked the rotors and pads and they were ok.

I'm not sure if I have a different issue than the pads, but if I went back to the Glen, I'd use an HP+ or HT-10.

[BigBlueM3]

I'll be there Friday as well, 3 of us with 95 M3's as well.
I run HP+ and am very happy with them, never faded in a 25 min session. I have a set of HPS as a back up.
You should be fine with the HPS unless you really drive the snot out of the car. Typically in the beginner group you run into considerable traffic anyway so you don't always have the chance to drive super hard anyway. Also, from the looks of a few Youtuve videos, it doesn't look like too many passing zones.

[trahsub]

I'll look for you. E36 M3's will be in full force, I'm going with a 99' M3 and a 96' 332i M3 clone. Between the six of us I imagine we won't be short on parts in the event someone needs something. I have a full set of PS hoses I'm bringing just in case.

[Lohe]

Originally Posted by B.Watts

Take them to the track with you...if you need them, it's only a few minutes to change them. I think experiencing a little brake fade is a GOOD thing for a new driver.

Ya my first HPDE in Vegas I got brake fade BAD had to drive a bit different the rest of the course... But I was still getting faster it made me down shift better ect.

[norwegian540]

my first event was april 08 and i ran completely stock without issue. by the second event i was confident enough at heartland park (ks) to start turning in much faster lap times. by the second day i really started to understand what brake fade meant when my whole front end felt like it was going to rattle loose.

like the gentleman said, take them with, at the worst it is 15 minutes a corner to swap out.

[sab0276]

I'll be instructing at Monticello on Friday. I'll be in an older red 911 with Duct Tape Motorsports decals on the windsheilds.

If your stock pads have over 50% pad left, you should be fine. If not, you should swap them out and bleed the fluid. Monticello is not that hard on brakes. If you need help swapping pads at the track, I've got a jack, jack stands, tools, fluid, and vacuum bleeder to do it.

If you get a chance, watch some video of the track to help learn it before you get there. This will familiarize you with which way the track goes and will be one less thing for you to worry about while on track. I find watching video of a new track helps tremendously.

Here is a 10 min video of South Circuit at Monticello. It has data overlay so you can see speeds, braking points, track map, lap times, etc.

-Scott

[EURO M3 CSL]

That track looks like fun. Though it doesnt appear to have much hard braking corners u should bring the HP+ pads just incase. GL nd have fun! Let us know how u did and where u feel u need improvement

[MIMI1]

Originally Posted by onrailsm3

....

Actually try 5 laps with no brakes at all.

Learn to slow the car with downshifts and proper vision and preplanning.

Best track/ HPDE excercise in the world. If your instructors dont do this as one of the 1st sessions ask for it. Believe me you learn tons of things.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by sab0276

I'll be instructing at Monticello on Friday. I'll be in an older red 911 with Duct Tape Motorsports decals on the windsheilds.

If your stock pads have over 50% pad left, you should be fine. If not, you should swap them out and bleed the fluid. Monticello is not that hard on brakes. If you need help swapping pads at the track, I've got a jack, jack stands, tools, fluid, and vacuum bleeder to do it.

If you get a chance, watch some video of the track to help learn it before you get there. This will familiarize you with which way the track goes and will be one less thing for you to worry about while on track. I find watching video of a new track helps tremendously.

Here is a 10 min video of South Circuit at Monticello. It has data overlay so you can see speeds, braking points, track map, lap times, etc.

-Scott

Thanks for the video and I'll look for you to say hi. BTW, what's up with the Infiniti FX on the track in that vid???

[APEXraceparts]

HPS pads are essentially street pads and have a very low resistance to heat. After they exceed their operating temp they glaze and will feel like you have cheeze as pads. Novices are known to overbrake and I am worried that you easily reach the pads' maximum operating temps. If I were you, I would install the HP+ right away not to have to worry about swapping pads at the track. You will be running from classroom instruction, to the skid pad exercises, to the track, and back to classroom. Not much time to swap pads. That could ruin your day...

[///Madman]

Originally Posted by APEXraceparts

HPS pads are essentially street pads and have a very low resistance to heat. After they exceed their operating temp they glaze and will feel like you have cheeze as pads. Novices are known to overbrake and I am worried that you easily reach the pads' maximum operating temps. If I were you, I would install the HP+ right away not to have to worry about swapping pads at the track. You will be running from classroom instruction, to the skid pad exercises, to the track, and back to classroom. Not much time to swap pads. That could ruin your day...

I'll second this suggestion. You will far too many things going through your head as a novice and the last thing you need to do is a rush brake pad install. too much of a chance you could forget to do something correctly in your haste. change the pads before you go when you have plenty of time. And don't forget to torque your lugbolts before you leave for the track and after you get there.

[trahsub]

Man, classic message board discussion, some for changing, some suggesting it's not necessary

Although it's my first track day, I've practiced sprited driving for years on the street, done a number of karting enduros, and a bunch of auto-x. I know a legit track day is a different beast, but at least I'm not a guy coming to the track in a Buick and bringing the odemeter past 60mph for the first time in my life.

Since I'm lasy (had the car up on stands yesterday and bled, checked everything, tq'ed everything) and limited on time (toddlers at home), I'll bring the pads and hope I don't cook the stockers.

I'll be back to this post ro admit failure if I turn the HPS pads into cuff links.

[Car54]

Really try to follow my suggestions above and you will minimize your chances of pad deposits and brake shudder (the end result of over-heating the pad). These techniques are likely unfamiliar to you as a spirited street driver.