DSP BMW questions

[bluevr6]

I am trying to collect as much data as possibel on DSP cars and FSP cars.

Would you be willing to share some info about your car?

Year / make / model / class / % level of preperation

competition weight

hp and tq and where the peaks are in the rpm band

any suspension limitations or advantages in class

developemental limitations

largest tire size usable

weight balance

max lateral accel

max accel and braking forces

anything else you can think of that woudl be beneficial in the evaluating of cars in class.

Please e-mail me at bluevr6 at yahoo dot com with any and all responses.

Best regards,

Kevin

[Fair]

Can't help you on FSP, as I don't have enough interest in that class to pay it any attention (sorry, classes with Hyundais and Sprints in it don't toot my horn). But DSP, that's a BMW class that I do follow and can give you so rough ideas on...

I am trying to collect as much data as possible on DSP cars and FSP cars.

Year / make / model / class / % level of preparation:
1992-1995 BMW 325is, DSP, go for broke!

competition weight : should be in the low 2700 pound range

hp and tq and where the peaks are in the rpm band : 190-240 whp should be attainable with a class legal 2.8L swap, header, intake, and aftermarket EFI

any suspension limitations or advantages in class: any bars, coilovers, camber plates and any number of shock adjustments are allowed. You can't alter pick-up points/strut towers, change the brakes other than the pads/hoses, and the suspension bushing material "must not increase in metal content" (but nylon or delrin is allowed). Stock control arms cannot be altered or modified.

developmental limitations: hmm... the factory EFI could be seen as a hindrance to some that want to do a more radical build-up. you are stuck with the factory longblock limitations, too (stock head, cam, pistons, bottom end). Its also a McStrut front suspension car, so that's always a limitation over a better double A-arm car... but in DSP all the top cars are strut cars

largest tire size usable : the two most popular combos are a 15x10" wheel and the 275mm Hoosier 15" tire, and 18x10" wheel and 285mm tire from Hoosier or Kumho. Both require flares, which means extensive body work and testing. Flares can be the single most expensive upgrade on any Street Prepared car, especially if you want them to "look right".

weight balance : should be near 50-50 from cars we've weighed. Way better than the DSP prepped AWD non-turbo Subarus

max lateral accel : I'd say 1.4 to 1.5 g

max accel and braking forces : braking should be over 1.1 g, accel more like .5 g... in first gear with a good triple disc clutch. This expensive clutch and flywheel set-up is good to free up some RPM/horsepower/rotational inertia, and aids in Pro Solo drag race style launches

anything else you can think of that would be beneficial in the evaluating of cars in class. : lightweight seats are a no brainer. Finding a hardtop coupe saves you time/money/hassles/weight doing the non-sunroof conversion. This is a big, fun class that can be very fast in autocross use!

Cheers,

[Rud]

Can't help you on FSP, as I don't have enough interest in that class to pay it any attention (sorry, classes with Hyundais and Sprints in it don't toot my horn). But DSP, that's a BMW class that I do follow and can give you so rough ideas on...

The FSP 2002 guys are gathering their pitchforks and lighting torches as we speak.

[PseudoRealityX]

The FSP 2002 guys are gathering their pitchforks and lighting torches as we speak.

Yeah, both of them...

*ducking*

[Fair]

Yea, I'm not trying to hate on FSP (I had a smiley in my post!) but the class has had a fairly low attendance Nationally and in our Region. A friend of ours running in STU wants to build an FSP car simply because there's so little attendance locally, using the "I can win because no one shows up!" mentality. I bust on him for that reasoning, of course, since this is almost as bad as using the Chewbacca Defense. (Southpark joke)

[Rud]

He should build an FSP 2002 for no other reason than they sound *awesome* with twin sidedraft Webers.

(They are also pretty fun to drive...drove Steve Kupper's car at a local event, wheee!)

[/hijack]

[PseudoRealityX]

Yea, I'm not trying to hate on FSP (I had a smiley in my post!) but the class has had a fairly low attendance Nationally and in our Region. A friend of ours running in STU wants to build an FSP car simply because there's so little attendance locally, using the "I can win because no one shows up!" mentality. I bust on him for that reasoning, of course, since this is almost as bad as using the Chewbacca Defense. (Southpark joke)

You do realize that FSP had larger attendance at Nationals than DSP, right?

[lowside67]

Can't help you on FSP, as I don't have enough interest in that class to pay it any attention (sorry, classes with Hyundais and Sprints in it don't toot my horn). But DSP, that's a BMW class that I do follow and can give you so rough ideas on...


Year / make / model / class / % level of preparation:
1992-1995 BMW 325is, DSP, go for broke!

competition weight : should be in the low 2700 pound range

hp and tq and where the peaks are in the rpm band : 190-240 whp should be attainable with a class legal 2.8L swap, header, intake, and aftermarket EFI

I've never seen a 2.8 without M3 cams make anywhere near that. From all the data I can glean I havent seen virtually any make more than 210rwhp without cams and internals. Can you give me some more insight as to what I might be missing to glean the extra horsepower?

[CodeMonkey]

I could see close to 240 if you did a full out build. 0.047 over with custom pistons, port the intake/exhaust, do a better job in the intake plenum, balance (but not lighten) the parts, aftermarket ECU tuned for 100, etc. It would be a 10K or more motor since the work to be done on it would be different than that for your typical IT/CCA motor. For most people it's cheaper to go with cams and damn the competitiveness chasing around cones. Or just go and run in SM or XP with real HP from a turbo/supercharger/LS1 swap

[bluevr6]

I've never seen a 2.8 without M3 cams make anywhere near that. From all the data I can glean I havent seen virtually any make more than 210rwhp without cams and internals. Can you give me some more insight as to what I might be missing to glean the extra horsepower?

Thanks, but what is the torque curve look like and what is the usable area under the curve?

Best regards,
Kevin

[Fair]

I've never seen a 2.8 without M3 cams make anywhere near that. From all the data I can glean I havent seen virtually any make more than 210rwhp without cams and internals. Can you give me some more insight as to what I might be missing to glean the extra horsepower?

Well I;ve seen the 210 whp setups, that's not extremely difficult with a 2.8L and header. The higher end of the number I posted was referring to the potential of an all-out DSP build, like that CodeMonkey better described. Using the factory intake and some Euro M3 headers is pretty common set-up in DSP but there is more potential there if you go to the extremes within the limit of the SP rules. The factory intake has very long runners and a single throttle body and the OEM EFI isn't exactly tuner-friendly. Does it make financial sense to go to the extremes? Probably not. But a short runner custom intake, 6 throttle body, aftermarket EFI, custom full length header DSP motor would be pretty slick. Just bring a truckload of cash.

As for FSP being bigger than DSP at Nationals... did you see some of the class entries?? Do cars having less than 40 hp count? I looked at the field half heatedly and I guess noticed a lot fewer "competitive" looking cars in FSP than DSP, I guess...

[DSP74]

I think some folks forget or misinterpret just how restrictive an engine "build" in S/P is. The main advantage is the increased CI/CC over stock and the increased compression and subsequent torque due to the overbore, and decking the head and block.
There are TINY other little things like bearing speed, etc, BUT without a doubt the tiny things are hidden in the MANUFACTURERS SHOP MANUAL, and DAMN GOOD MACHINE WORK.

I think that a great S/P engine is a serious DIY project. It's not worth the risk IMO to trust a machine shop/engine builder to build to your specs/standards/tolerences when TO THEM all it is, is a stock rebuild.......

[bluevr6]

Nobody is willing to share torque curves on a DSP motor?

[vdshenoy]

Old DSP dyno (no fancy high dollar stuff though)



This is what happened to the curve with M3 cams (bumped to FP though)

[BJO]

vdshenoy, nice dyno. You are almost making as much hp as my M3! TQ is a few Ft/lbs less but then again I am 7-800 lbs heavier

[vdshenoy]

vdshenoy, nice dyno. You are almost making as much hp as my M3! TQ is a few Ft/lbs less but then again I am 7-800 lbs heavier

Acceleration from slow corners could be better.

Guys - Any ideas on getting more torque (<4k rpms)?? Looks like the M3 cams reduced torque below 4k by approx 15-20 ft lbs. & added about 20hp to the top end.

My current setup is below.

• 2.8L M52
  
• Underdrive Pullies
• E36 S52 M3 Cams
• M50 Intake Manifold
• Active Autowerke 3.5" CAI w/ 3.5" MAF & Smooth Silicone Elbow
• Original Engine Computer w/ 1995 M3 Active Autowerke Chip
• SMT6 Piggyback Engine Computer

[DSP74]

I'll give you a few limited numbers on an E30. I'm still gathering parts, and researching ALOT. I've not autoxed in a couple years after having another full on S/P car........Not BMW

Minumum weight in a DSP E30 should be VERY low 2400's. HP is going to be around 160 whp, and with proper tuning/decent header, and maybe some intake mods around 170whp.

[DSP74]

I could see close to 240 if you did a full out build. 0.047 over with custom pistons, port the intake/exhaust, do a better job in the intake plenum, balance (but not lighten) the parts, aftermarket ECU tuned for 100, etc. It would be a 10K or more motor since the work to be done on it would be different than that for your typical IT/CCA motor. For most people it's cheaper to go with cams and damn the competitiveness chasing around cones. Or just go and run in SM or XP with real HP from a turbo/supercharger/LS1 swap

Specifically quoted this post to point out.....

Custom pistons won't gain anything. Forged is legal but coatings aren't. Any kind of weight reduction is illegal. And the must be stock type, as in same number and size valve reliefs.

You can't "port" the intake or exhuast. Only gasket match. Depending on how well port alignment is there is NOTHING to be gained here, and may even hurt things.


Not needing forged due to durability, stock type are best due to thermal stability resulting in better ring sealing.

You honestly would probably lose power in a S/P engine on 100 vs 93 octane. The 100's slower burn is just inefficient. Unless it's needed to prevent detonation. And it isn't needed for that here.


I'm sure you realize this but just pointed things out for others looking.

[yokoseiki]

Mike, how did the E36 compare to Alex's car at DC? I know there are some gearing differences but just curious...

[CodeMonkey]

I've got more power, but he's got less weight. We're close, just like last year.

[bluevr6]

Thanks for the new data / replies guys.
Best -o- luck,
Kevin

[DSP ITR]

Does anybody have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios of an e36 BMW?

Oh, and whoever said that all the top cars in DSP are mac strut suspensions, I disagree! :big smiley face that I can't post cause I r n00b:

[CodeMonkey]

Does anybody have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios of an e36 BMW?

Oh, and whoever said that all the top cars in DSP are mac strut suspensions, I disagree! :big smiley face that I can't post cause I r n00b:

Geez Nate, you could have just asked me...

Rear end choices:

2.93
3.15
3.91

1st gear : 4.23
2nd gear : 2.52

Redline ~7K, you might be able to squeak it out to 7500, but I'd start to worry on a non-M, post-92 engine.

[murph1379]

Any idea if these are different on the 328 tranny?

Thanks for the info, I've been trying to find that everywhere!

(to compare my 330 to an E36 328 for STX use)

[Ligero]

I can help on the FSP data as my last car was a fully prepped FSP Scirocco.

Weight- 1693lbs
wheels- 13x9 Kieser 8lbs each
Tires- Hoosier 255/40/13
Suspension- Koni da's, Ground Control sleeves, 25mm front sway bar, no rear bar and 500lb front springs with 600lb rear.
Bushings- Delrin on all moving parts
Engine- Bored 40 over, fully balanced but not lightened, match ported head, 4 into 1 race header, no cat, side exit exhaust made 102hp at the wheels.
Transmission- Stock close ratio with Quaife diff
Interior- Corbeau Forza seats