What is the hot set-up for STU?

[jorober5]

The official basis is to take a measurement on a 28" diameter, but frankly that doesn't matter if you're doing your own alignment. Start somewhere reasonable and adjust as necessary.

By the way, that "essential" rear toe socket is here: http://www.zdmak.com/wbstore/main.as...BMW3039&CTMP=1

Mike

I've still not tried to mess with my alignment yet (I've got the Vorshlag 4100's, camber plates, sway bars, motor mounts, transmission mounts, RTAB's, and a cat-back all sitting in my garage ready to install), but is that a tool I should invest in before I try to do my string alignment on my garage floor?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[imstimpy]

The tool allows small, precise changes in rear toe. You can do it without the tool, but the rear trailing arms will slop around wildly if you aren't careful. I've been tinkering with alignment settings for a year now without the rear toe tool. It is somewhat tedious, when changes are made then verified at the alignment shop, or finding an alignment guy that is willing to try and set it to what I want.

-Jon

[Fair]

Terry, don't give my codriver any credit or anything, geez.

For a car that could win on anything, you were higher up on the podium than we were at nats in '06. FYI we were on shaved Yoks at Nats in '05 and '06.

You sure whine a lot for someone who finished 2nd at Nats. A lot of us would have been happy to trade places with your finish.

Hehehe... I was just commenting about how its probably easier to win these days in an AWD than 2WD car in STU. Didn't mean it as a slight to you or your co-driver, as I didn't even look at the results beyond the fact that someone posted that an EVO won. Its kind of the running joke that I think an M3 hasn't a snowballs chance in hell in STU yet a lot of BMW drivers (many of whom don't race in STU at Nationals) or AWD turbo drivers keep arguing otherwise.

We have prepped both 2WD and AWD cars for this class and the differences we've seen in testing and competing in both side by side and back to back is so significant that I just won't ignore or gloss over it. We aren't going to bring a knife to that gunfight anymore. I wish this wasn't the case, as much of our customers autocross in BMWs, and I really want these cars to be competitive. Regionally I think they can do well, and on a lot of courses and surfaces they still have a shot... but at HPT I think those chances are lower.

Again, as we've stated many times in the past, I think the BMW crowd had a big head start in STU at the beginning of this class, with proven set-ups a lot closer to optimized set-ups in 2005 and 2006 due to the decade+ head start these cars had in competitive Solo2 use. I know we benefited from experiences learned by others, and we had a very aggressive test and race schedule in the same car in 2004, 5, 6 and 7 to help fine tune our set-up. We took some "wrong turns" with both STU cars' in 2007 that impacted our showing with all 4 drivers, as well.

We came close to winning in a BMW in 2005 (settled for a 6th with cone trouble on Day 2, but Neary almost pulled it off with cone trouble on one side as well) and did well in 2006 (I was still .9 sec out of first and Simanyi nearly matched my time in 3rd), but both of those years I think the preparation and set-up "perfection" wasn't quite there with all but a handful of the AWD competitors. We benefited from the stickier concrete at Forbes field in 2005 as well, where we were less traction limited than at the slippery HPT surface (also, Brian and I traditionally both do better in the wet in whatever we drive as shown by our Day 1 showings in 2005 of 1st and 3rd fastest, where it was partially-wet).

2007 was a different story and a lot more AWD drivers came to Nationals better prepared (and fewer BMW entrants showed up), and those drivers put the beating on some of us BMW drivers like never before. Thankfully Simanyi still hung in there and trophied (damn good driving!) but I think we can all agree that the BMW's time has come and gone in STU at the HPT site, without some significant change in venue and/or rules. HPT's slick surface amplifies the AWD advantage, and the 80-120+ hp advantage and no significant difference in usable tire width or chassis weight really doesn't bode well for the 240 hp BMW M3. This is a car that many believe belongs in STX (and if you compare the measurable stats and previous HPT times, it fits), and I do hope it gets moved there in 2009...

That's not what I consider whining, that's just my hard learned experience. Some people don't want to deal with the obvious facts and large advantages some cars have over others in this class, and that's their prerogative. You and anyone else are more than welcome to build up your M3 and run it in STU to prove me wrong though! I'll even help you set it up. Please, prove me wrong... I want to be wrong in this case. If someone can somehow make a car with half the drive wheels and 80-120 less hp beat an otherwise similar weight/grip car, please show me the trick.

Interesting data about the Dunlops. I admit my first hand experiences are very limited on these tires, and now that we're running in other classes (STS and XP) it doesn't make sense to go retest on their bigger sizes I won't be using anymore. But if they can take the heat better than a Bridgestone, sure, it might be a better choice for an STU car... if you don't want to just use the winningest, proven STU tire for some reason (cost could be that reason, of course).

Cheers,

[rjsolo2]

No hard feelings Terry.

I believe the conditions in which an M3 has an advantage is quite a bit smaller than for AWD. And unfortunatly HPT isn't one of them. With a slightly favorable course on concrete they are about even. On a very transitional course the M3 has a clear advantage.

We see how course design effects the AWD vs 2WD outcome all the time out here.

I applaud Mike on how well he did on the non-BMW course day 1 at the '07 nats, 3rd I believe on the wrong tires. I fully would have bet money Mike that would have improved on the BMW slalom friendly second day course, if they weren't on Bridgestones in the heat.

Mike did win last Sunday on a totally F'd course for a BMW. It had some super slow corners followed by 2 60 mph+drag strips. Plus the other sections were so tight that the tire advantage was nil. Mike is a proven driver, BUT a local rookie M3 driver Tin Bui (with some sweet rims, called D4 or DeForrest ? ) set the 2nd fastest time Sat., over 3 national trophy winners. He's never even won a local event. Must have been the wheels!

Rick

[Fair]

No hard feelings Terry.

I believe the conditions in which an M3 has an advantage is quite a bit smaller than for AWD. And unfortunatly HPT isn't one of them. With a slightly favorable course on concrete they are about even. On a very transitional course the M3 has a clear advantage.

We see how course design effects the AWD vs 2WD outcome all the time out here.

I applaud Mike on how well he did on the non-BMW course day 1 at the '07 nats, 3rd I believe on the wrong tires. I fully would have bet money Mike that would have improved on the BMW slalom friendly second day course, if they weren't on Bridgestones in the heat.

Mike did win last Sunday on a totally F'd course for a BMW. It had some super slow corners followed by 2 60 mph+drag strips. Plus the other sections were so tight that the tire advantage was nil. Mike is a proven driver, BUT a local rookie M3 driver Tin Bui (with some sweet rims, called D4 or DeForrest ? ) set the 2nd fastest time Sat., over 3 national trophy winners. He's never even won a local event. Must have been the wheels!

Rick

Heck yea! Tin Bui is a multi-time Vorshlag customer sporting D-Force wheels (ha!), Vorshlag camber plates, wheel studs, Mason braces, etc. Go Tin go!

Mike S continues to throw a wrench in our plans of showing how badly the M3 does Nationally to help with the move of this car into STX.... (psst! Mike.... stop winning so much!)

[chebimmer]

Found these pics from the SD event. http://www.pbase.com/bryanh/sdtour08&page=3

Are eyes playing tricks on me? Who was that running 8.5 K1s in the rear with Dforce 17x9s (I assume) in the front? How did that work?
Seems like it would be harder to put power down out of tight corners. Interesting.

[rjsolo2]

Heck yea! Tin Bui is a multi-time Vorshlag customer sporting D-Force wheels (ha!), Vorshlag camber plates, wheel studs, Mason braces, etc. Go Tin go!

Mike S continues to throw a wrench in our plans of showing how badly the M3 does Nationally to help with the move of this car into STX.... (psst! Mike.... stop winning so much!)

D-force that was it! Now who sells those, Vor..?

How about a discount if I ever buy some for the product props?!

[fsmtnbiker]

Ha! Good spot... that does look like a Kosei in back. Tin, wha chu doin man?

That isn't Tin's car.

[BoBoUDM//34]

I have to add that the Dunlop is also a very capable track tire. I just got back from a very abusive session at VIR and was eating up P-cars on hoosiers. I have yet to auto-x in the dry though. IMHO this tire has it all!

[Kaizen81]

I want to add that I am a very happy Vorshlag customer . Thanks Terry. Btw, Richard was the first one to recommend me to get D-Force wheels from Vorshlag.

The silver #54 car is mine. The blue one is An's.

As for my setup:
D-Force 17x9, 255/40/17 RE-01R, Mason Engineering Front STB, Bilstein PSS9 (480 lb/in FR, 685 lb/in RR), TMS Sway Bar (Med Front, Soft Rear). Everything else is stock.

Alignment:
Front Camber: -3.5 deg
Front Caster: 7 deg
Front Toe: 1/16" Out
Rear Camber: -2.0 deg
Rear Toe: 1/8" In

Saturday at the SD Tour, the car felt great. Very neutral, got the power down easily. I was just relaxed driving, I didn't expect to do so well. I race locally with Tom, Richard, Mike, and Max and they always just kill me.

Sunday was a different story. I was just driving badly, mostly because the results from Saturday. Just so freaking nervous! My lines were bad, had corner entry oversteer, corner exit oversteer. Even if I drove well like I did on Saturday, I don't think I could have come close to Mike's, Tom's, Max, and Richards time.

I am happy to come away with a 6th place though.

I'll post up videos and my data later this week.

-Tin

[rjsolo2]

I want to add that I am a very happy Vorshlag customer . Thanks Terry. Btw, Richard was the first one to recommend me to get D-Force wheels from Vorshlag.

The silver #54 car is mine. The blue one is An's.
Saturday at the SD Tour, the car felt great. Very neutral, got the power down easily. I was just relaxed driving, I didn't expect to do so well. I race locally with Tom, Richard, Mike, and Max and they always just kill me.[/FONT]

Sunday was a different story. I was just driving badly, mostly because the results from Saturday. Just so freaking nervous! My lines were bad, had corner entry oversteer, corner exit oversteer. Even if I drove well like I did on Saturday, I don't think I could have come close to Mike's, Tom's, Max, and Richards time.

I am happy to come away with a 6th place though.

I'll post up videos and my data later this week.

-Tin

Congrats on your National Trophy Medal - good job! First of more to come, I'm sure. You scared a lot of folks Sat.

[everbruin]

yep the avus blue is mine; i ran kosei in back hoping to minimize rubbing on the street (used 255 neovas are still wide)

[LaunchBackwards]

Scott, what's your current setup? I might autox this season.

Suspension
17x9 SSR Comps
255/40/17 Yokohama Advan Neova AD07s
-3.5 deg camber, 0.10 deg toe out front
-2.5 deg camber, 0.20 deg toe in rear
adjustable coilovers (GC/koni, bilstein, AST, etc)
at least 500# front springs and at least 25mm sway bar up front
between 450# and 650# rear springs (depending on driver preference) stock size rear bar, or small adjustable rear bar

Weight Savings
LTW sport or race seats - 80# savings
LTW battery - 30# savings
replace exhaust with custom 2.5" or 3" single exhaust - 60# savings or so
get a non sunroof car - 45# savings

Power
cold air intake and tune

I weighed my car today...3300#s with me and a full tank of gasoline.

[PseudoRealityX]

Found these pics from the SD event. http://www.pbase.com/bryanh/sdtour08&page=3

Are eyes playing tricks on me? Who was that running 8.5 K1s in the rear with Dforce 17x9s (I assume) in the front? How did that work?
Seems like it would be harder to put power down out of tight corners. Interesting.

While a narrower wheel won't put power down as well... having the rear narrower as a whole compared to the front will infact help put power down.

[Fair]

While a narrower wheel won't put power down as well... having the rear narrower as a whole compared to the front will infact help put power down.

Well.... yes, a narrower rear track can help the differential work more efficiently, and is why we've gone to great lengths to push our XP car's wheels inboard as much as possible. Also, a narrower track helps greatly in slaloms and other "narrow" gates and transitions. I lopped 2.5" out of our car's rear track width (and over 4 pounds per corner) switching wheels and tires on this car....


LEFT: 17x11 + 315/35/17.... RIGHT: 18x10 + 305/30/18

But still, for a traction limited 2WD M3 classed in STU I'd rather be on 9" wheels for that big 255/40/17 Yokohama AD07... 'cause its really measures out at 265mm of tread. You do have to roll the rear fender lips to make that tire/wheel fit an E36, though. Squeeze that tire on an 8.5" wheel and it doesn't let as much tire stay on the ground but it fits un-rolled fenders better. If someone made a light 17x9.5" wheel that would be better still, but no one does, and custom 3-piece wheels are waaaaay heavier than the D-Force LTW5.

I still think the best M3 STU set-up is this 17x9 and 255 combo. I am still kicking myself for going to 265mm + 18x10's in 2007... just can't fit enough additional tire with the current STU ruleset to make a worthwhile difference over the 9's. Either allow the fender mods necessary to fit the class' max tire size (I could do these mods in an afternoon!) or kick this car down to STX where it belongs. If either of those conditions were to come about I'd have our M3 back in competition within a matter of days.

[chebimmer]

I want to add that I am a very happy Vorshlag customer . Thanks Terry. Btw, Richard was the first one to recommend me to get D-Force wheels from Vorshlag.

The silver #54 car is mine. The blue one is An's.

As for my setup:
D-Force 17x9, 255/40/17 RE-01R, Mason Engineering Front STB, Bilstein PSS9 (480 lb/in FR, 685 lb/in RR), TMS Sway Bar (Med Front, Soft Rear). Everything else is stock.

Alignment:
Front Camber: -3.5 deg
Front Caster: 7 deg
Front Toe: 1/16" Out
Rear Camber: -2.0 deg
Rear Toe: 1/8" In

Saturday at the SD Tour, the car felt great. Very neutral, got the power down easily. I was just relaxed driving, I didn't expect to do so well. I race locally with Tom, Richard, Mike, and Max and they always just kill me.

Sunday was a different story. I was just driving badly, mostly because the results from Saturday. Just so freaking nervous! My lines were bad, had corner entry oversteer, corner exit oversteer. Even if I drove well like I did on Saturday, I don't think I could have come close to Mike's, Tom's, Max, and Richards time.

I am happy to come away with a 6th place though.

I'll post up videos and my data later this week.

-Tin

Tin, yes, please post up some vids when you can.
A couple questions, you don't list camber plates in this post, but you have that much neg. camber, how so? Also, how did you get those rates on PSS9s? I didn't think you could choose rates for that coilover.
Congrats on the good showing.

[imstimpy]

The silver #54 car is mine. The blue one is An's.

Saturday at the SD Tour, the car felt great. Very neutral, got the power down easily. I was just relaxed driving, I didn't expect to do so well. I race locally with Tom, Richard, Mike, and Max and they always just kill me.

Sunday was a different story. I was just driving badly, mostly because the results from Saturday. Just so freaking nervous! My lines were bad, had corner entry oversteer, corner exit oversteer. Even if I drove well like I did on Saturday, I don't think I could have come close to Mike's, Tom's, Max, and Richards time.

I am happy to come away with a 6th place though.

-Tin

I didn't get a chance to see you run on Saturday, but I heard you were fast. When I watched on Sunday, you were sliding everywhere and I was trying to figure out how that was fast. Turns out the sliding wasn't fast and something was different between the two days. It was a very good showing nonetheless. If I hadn't coned every run but one, I would have finished 12th and that is still a far cry from 6th.

...If someone made a light 17x9.5" wheel that would be better still, but no one does, and custom 3-piece wheels are waaaaay heavier than the D-Force LTW5.

http://www.rayswheels.co.jp/cgi-bin/...model=010_TE37
http://www.rayswheels.co.jp/cgi-bin/...odel=040_CE28N

I have a crazy co-driver considering those, looks on a German car be damned.

-Jon

[STirish]

If someone made a light 17x9.5" wheel that would be better still, but no one does, and custom 3-piece wheels are waaaaay heavier than the D-Force LTW5.

There is someone who makes a 17x9.5" that should fit, Volk. TE37s or CE28s. I have been considering the TE37s, but they are so damn ugly and expensive on the Bimmers.

Now if Vorshlag could leverage their power with D-Force, we could get them to make a 17x9.5" If you guys sold a 17x9.5" that fit my E36 M3, I could guarantee a sale of at least two sets

Rob

*Edit* Damn it Jon, aren't you supposed to be working

[Kaizen81]

Tin, yes, please post up some vids when you can.
A couple questions, you don't list camber plates in this post, but you have that much neg. camber, how so? Also, how did you get those rates on PSS9s? I didn't think you could choose rates for that coilover.
Congrats on the good showing.

I do have camber plates up front. Vorshlag Camber Plates.

I could get 3.25deg neg with swapping hats, car was lower back then.

As for the PSS9's rates, those are the ones that came on the car (bought used). Called up Bilstein and those are standard rates.

Sunday was just sliding around, not fast as all. Didn't slide much at all on Saturday.

[fsmtnbiker]

If you guys sold a 17x9.5" that fit my E36 M3, I could guarantee a sale of at least two sets

Make that 3...

[Fair]

I do have camber plates up front. Vorshlag Camber Plates.

I could get 3.25deg neg with swapping hats, car was lower back then.

As for the PSS9's rates, those are the ones that came on the car (bought used). Called up Bilstein and those are standard rates.

Sunday was just sliding around, not fast as all. Didn't slide much at all on Saturday.

Tin - you know those are 60mm at the bottom... and with new upper spring perches you can run a true 60mm coilover spring... if you want to try new spring rates, let me know. We've helped several customers get rid of their one-size-fits-all PSS9 springs.

There is someone who makes a 17x9.5" that should fit, Volk. TE37s or CE28s. I have been considering the TE37s, but they are so damn ugly and expensive on the Bimmers.

Now if Vorshlag could leverage their power with D-Force, we could get them to make a 17x9.5" If you guys sold a 17x9.5" that fit my E36 M3, I could guarantee a sale of at least two sets

Hehehe... tell me about it! I'd love to have D-Force build us a 17x9.5", but we'd have to pre-purchase a LOT of these and invariably we wouldn't get many people's sale because the freagin "color" was wrong or it "needs a polished lip, yo!" or some such nonsense... I'd order them all in silver if I thought the fickle, finicky BMW buyers would just man-up and buy them in this simple color.



Every time we order something new we always guess wrong on the damn colors. Never enough of one color and too many of another... its maddening. There'd be howls of "why not black!" and "where's my hot pink wheels with chrome dish!" or "if you only made a 24 karat gold version, I'd buy 14 sets!"



OK... so, if we did have a run of 17x9.5's made, and they ONLY came in silver, who'd be in for a set? I want to make them, as I think there's a big potential market for them for the E36 and maybe even E46 non-M... and we know there's a TON of performance/race tires that would work with these (255/40/17). I suspect it could come in around 17.5 pounds and $279 (that's a total SWAG, of course). We know they'd fit because we made 18x10's fit, and the "255" Yokohama so many STU racers used is really a 265 and it fits fairly easily (rolled rear lips).

Chime in...

[chebimmer]

Sign me up. I would hold off on the 17x9s I am saving for. That's four sets now!
Heck, I hope you offer them just to get your M3 back out there competing

[STirish]

Terry,

I'm in for silver 17x9.5"s.

In case you missed the love:
http://www.pbase.com/bryanh/image/94402948 Maybe someone will mistake my car for someone who did well. Cough, cough...Tin

Rob

[Fair]

Heck, I hope you offer them just to get your M3 back out there competing

Gah! DROP what you are doing and go read this thread, then fire your your SEB letter writing e-mail...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=963139

One of the April 2008 FasTrack proposal's: allow 285mm tires for 2WD cars in STU!

Of course this is utterly useless without more liberal fender mods needed to make these fit the only 2WD car in STU that matters, the E36 M3. Please mention that in your letter as well.

GoGoGo! Write those letters! This is the shot that we've been looking for and the "one great hope" for saving some semblance of competitiveness between 2WD and AWD cars in STU. Send that letter TODAY!

[STirish]

An and Tin,

On Saturday night we found that the car had toe out in the rear. We fixed that Saturday night thanks to Mike S. letting us use his camber plates. THANKS MIKE! Sunday the car felt better, but not great. We still had some weird clunks in the rear and a hard time putting any kind of power down. Well, I found the clunks last night. The bolts though both RTABs was loose How the he!!?!?Maybe if we can figure out how to drive, we'll do better next time. Are you guys going to make the trek to Packwood later this summer?

Rob